Perry, Sony, Solo vs. Jrny and the TBF Fall Out

[Matthew]

Sur - a record exec would think it isn't half-bad - but were they genuinely excited by it? Or totally convinced and motivated by the new singer? It seems that they weren't.

If it were Perry on vox, they would have been excited. Money talks. Arrival fucking destroys Trial by Feces. Arrival is a rock record at least, whatever your opinion is. TBF is a wedding soundtrack for Queer Eye by the Straight Guy. Awful shit.

There are arguably more ballads on Arrival than on TBF. Plus the production on TBF packs a stronger punch as well, I reckon.

[Rockindeano]

It's a difficult one. Journey have given a lot of pleasure to die-hard fans since 1998 so I guess it would be mean-spirited to begrudge that. However - from a purely selfish point of view - I wish Schon and Cain had kept the door open for Perry for at least another two years.

How long is long enough? They know him and his "character" better than we do. I will back Neal and Friga everytime against this A hole. They DID wait. He wasn't about to go to work. "Fuck me once, shame on you, fuck me twice shame on Neal and Jon."

Maybe it would have been a further waste of time

Yep, precisely.

[Matthew]

Sony got the album their guy Kalodner pushed for, the guys have made statements to that affect. Sony/JDK and Kevin Shirley laid the boundaries for what they thought Journey should be, Sony got the album they wanted and still sabotaged its success.

Why did Sony "sabotage" its success, NMT?

Thankfully, Journey wasn't willing to let it happen yet again..

Why "thankfully"? You talk as though the last eight years haven't been a total catastrophe.

[Rockindeano]

Arrival fucking destroys Trial by Feces. Arrival is a rock record at least, whatever your opinion is. TBF is a wedding soundtrack for Queer Eye by the Straight Guy. Awful shit.

Dude, put down the beer. You just made yourself look a complete ass in the MR arena.

[Matthew]

They know him and his "character" better than we do.

True.

I will back Neal and Friga everytime against this A hole.

I wish I had your faith in their judgement. It seems to me that they've made a terrible hash of things. As you well know, Deano. At least the "A-hole" didn't con his own fans with bogus concerts.

They DID wait. He wasn't about to go to work.

They waited eighteen months. And no - I don't count the gap between 1987 and 1996. Schon and Cain finally learned how to be successful without Perry in that time.

[NoMoreTails]

I think it suffered a long time before TapeGate. The loss of 750,000 fans in five years and the subsequent loss of a record deal was far more damaging than the lip-sync scandal, I reckon.

If your logic here is that Arrival sold a quarter of what TBF did, then Journey lost how many million fans between Frontiers and ROR?
Obviously every casual Journey fan didn't buy ROR and every casual fan that goes to the shows didn't buy TBF or anything since. TBF only shipped platinum anyway as already established.

[AR]

Dude, put down the beer. You just made yourself look a complete ass in the MR arena.

Disagree completely. Arrival is the better album over TBF. Would you rather I lie about my opinion?

[Matthew]

I think it suffered a long time before TapeGate. The loss of 750,000 fans in five years and the subsequent loss of a record deal was far more damaging than the lip-sync scandal, I reckon.

If your logic here is that Arrival sold a quarter of what TBF did, then Journey lost how many million fans between Frontiers and ROR?
Obviously every casual Journey fan didn't buy ROR and every casual fan that goes to the shows didn't buy TBF or anything since. TBF only shipped platinum anyway as already established.

It's true - Journey's album sales have sharply decreased with each release after "Escape". I guess it depends on what we individually think is a acceptable minumum. 250,000 falls way below that level.

[Matthew]

Dude, put down the beer. You just made yourself look a complete ass in the MR arena.

Disagree completely. Arrival is the better album over TBF. Would you rather I lie about my opinion?

AR - sorry to butt in - but the problem with your statement was that you were making out that Arrival was more of a rock record than TBF...that it was the heavier or tougher of the two albums. That just isn't true. If you prefer Arrival, fine.

[NoMoreTails]

Sony got the album their guy Kalodner pushed for, the guys have made statements to that affect. Sony/JDK and Kevin Shirley laid the boundaries for what they thought Journey should be, Sony got the album they wanted and still sabotaged its success.

Why did Sony "sabotage" its success, NMT?

Thankfully, Journey wasn't willing to let it happen yet again..

Why "thankfully"? You talk as though the last eight years haven't been a total catastrophe.

No, some of those years were great, though not by commercial standards of the 80s, but that was nearly 20 years ago. They made some great music and undoubtedly made alot of money touring. I agree mistakes have been made but I am one of the few Journey fans who was never completely satisfied with Perry anyway, I think his talent was unbelievable, but left something to be desired for me, wishing he was more of a rocker. So, thankfully, because I was glad when they moved on with a singer who had been more of a rocker and a Journey that looked like it would move in a more rocking, more progessive direction and because waiting on him, obvious to anyone not looking through rose colored glasses, would be in vain.
I will say this, I think Perry stopped because he could no longer deliver the quality live performance he would be statisfied with, and I do respect that. But don't expect the rest of the band to wait with no indication you'll ever return.

[AR]

AR - sorry to butt in - but the problem with your statement was that you were making out that Arrival was more of a rock record than TBF...that it was the heavier or tougher of the two albums. That just isn't true. If you prefer Arrival, fine

There are heavier songs on Arrival. TBF other than MOL sounds like Barry Manilow to me. And yeah, Arrival has some drivel on it.

To Be Alive Again
Higher Place
Signs of Life (something TBF doesn't show)

That as an EP BLOWS AWAY TBF.

Fuck TBF it sucks ass.

All opinions. I just stand by mine.

[Rockindeano]

I wish I had your faith in their judgement. It seems to me that they've made a terrible hash of things. As you well know, Deano. At least the "A-hole" didn't con his own fans with bogus concerts.

That is true. By the way, I think Augeri is an even bigger asshole than Perry.

[NoMoreTails]

I think it suffered a long time before TapeGate. The loss of 750,000 fans in five years and the subsequent loss of a record deal was far more damaging than the lip-sync scandal, I reckon.

If your logic here is that Arrival sold a quarter of what TBF did, then Journey lost how many million fans between Frontiers and ROR?
Obviously every casual Journey fan didn't buy ROR and every casual fan that goes to the shows didn't buy TBF or anything since. TBF only shipped platinum anyway as already established.

It's true - Journey's album sales have sharply decreased with each release after "Escape". I guess it depends on what we individually think is a acceptable minumum. 250,000 falls way below that level.

I agree it is way below what Journey should expect. But if the number of units sold indicates the quality of the music, does ROR really stand up as one of Journey's great albums as you've argued previously? I don't think so, it might compare to a Perry solo album, which it essentially is anyway.

[Matthew]

I agree mistakes have been made but I am one of the few Journey fans who was never completely satisfied with Perry anyway, I think his talent was unbelievable, but left something to be desired for me, wishing he was more of a rocker.

I can understand the frustration sometimes that Perry was so influenced by R n B and that he moved the band in that direction for a while. But he delivered classic rock performances on "Escape" and "Frontiers".

Did Augeri "rock"? I'd never thought of him like that...I'd always seen him as a 'housewife's choice' sort of singer....

I will say this, I think Perry stopped because he could no longer deliver the quality live performance he would be statisfied with, and I do respect that. But don't expect the rest of the band to wait with no indication you'll ever return.

I agree up to a point. No, Perry couldn't have coped with relentless touring schedule. But would a new album and a handful of big city dates been possible? Maybe.

I wasn't suggesting that Journey wait indefinitely. But Steve Smith's refusal to continue with Journey without Perry and the early signs that Sony had lost interest in the band without Perry were warning signs that Schon and Cain didn't seem to hear. As it turned out...both Smith and Sony were right not to back Schon and Cain's experiment.

[Matthew]

I agree it is way below what Journey should expect. But if the number of units sold indicates the quality of the music, does ROR really stand up as one of Journey's great albums as you've argued previously? I don't think so, it might compare to a Perry solo album, which it essentially is anyway.

Sure, all kinds of crap can sell million of copies - but in Journey's case the creative success of a record does seem to be appropriately reflected in the buying patterns of its fan base.

I reckon ROR is Journey's third best album. Perhaps coincidentally it is the third highest selling too. I'd also say that Escape is the best (it sold the most) followed by Frontiers (the second highest selling).

ROR sold 2.5 million and Arrival sold 250,000. Does this gap reflect the difference in quality? Even allowing for the changing times...I think it roughly does.

As for ROR as Perry solo album...well, if I hear a song sung by Perry with a solo by Schon it sounds like Journey to me. The 'mechanical' or 'electronic' production? Schon and Cain were totally excited about the new technology. It's a myth that Perry 'forced' this on them. Schon and Cain co-wrote two-thirds of that album and were in the studio more consistently than Perry was, as well.

So all in all it was very much a Journey record. Perhaps I love it too much and you respect it too little...maybe nostalgia has clouded my judgement...but the fact remains it was still the third highest selling record in Journey's history and deservedly so - and on that criteria alone it ranks as one of Journey's great albums.

[Deb]

No. I'm saying that it's possible that - despite TBF selling one million copies - Sony didn't meet the targets they'd budgeted for re: the Journey reunion.

Actually, I don't think TBF did sell 1 million, although they are certified as such. They shipped 1 million. I am one of the few on here who like that record.

So when the next Journey album came along there might well have been a decision to cut their losses. Especially given that Perry was no longer in the band.

Good point. Maybe so?

I don't think "Arrival" is embarrassing either. But equally I can quite understand why the Sony people might have lacked faith in Augeri's ability to connect with a mass audience. If I worked for Sony, I'd also be concerned that the album was a '80's pastiche'...that it was a backward-looking album..that it didn't respresent an exciting new phase for the band.

Actually, if I were a Sony exec, besides getting tons of young fine ass, I would listen to Arrival and I would have heard Higher Place, Signs of Life and 1 or 2 others, and said, "Hmm, this isn't half bad."

Seriously, I think Arrival is syrupy and too layered and polished, but definitely good enough to sponsor and make money on.

Well, I'll be damned.....3 grown men (Matt, Deano, Nomoretails) having a respectful and might I add interesting dialogue/convo..........who knew! While I don't agree with some of it, definately food for thought.

[NoMoreTails]

I think Augeri was rooted more in rock and his past showed that. I think having him try to adapt to a more Perry-ish style was a bad decision by all concerned. So was sticking to the greatest hits year after year for the most part. His tone was similar, most of his influences were not. If ROR has sold more than Infinity and Captured, that's a disgrace imo, no matter what the numbers sold, I still think it sucks with a few exceptions.
I feel the difference in numbers reflects the change in times rather than the quality, this is why I think Arrival without Perry could have sold as much as ROR did, if it were released 15 years earlier.

[Rockindeano]

I reckon ROR is Journey's third best album. Perhaps coincidentally it is the third highest selling too. I'd also say that Escape is the best (it sold the most) followed by Frontiers (the second highest selling).

Not even close.

Escape- 9 million
Frontiers-6
Evolution -3
Departure- 3
Infinity--3
ROR- 2
TBF-1

Captured- 2
GH-10
GH Live- gold


Arrival- under 500k
Red 13- under 500k
Generations- under 500k


source- RIAA.com

[conversationpc]

Here's the info from the RIAA web site on Journey platinum album/DVD sales...

"Greatest Hits" 14X
"Escape" 9X
"Frontiers" 6X
"Greatest Hits: 1978-1997" DVD 4X
"Captured" 3X
"Departure" 3X
"Evolution" 3X
"Infinity" 3X
"Raised on Radio" 2X
"The Essential Journey" 1X
"Journey Live 2001" DVD 1X
"Live in Houston 1981: Escape Tour" DVD/CD 1X
"Trial By Fire" 1X

If you want to do your own research, you can go to... RIAA Gold & Plantinum Searchable Database

[Rockindeano]

It should be noted that DVD's are platinum at 500,000 copies sold and gold at 250,000.

[conversationpc]

It should be noted that DVD's are platinum at 500,000 copies sold and gold at 250,000.

Didn't know that...Thanks for clarifying. That still puts "Raised on Radio" lower on the list than Matthew was claiming.

[Enigma869]

But Steve Smith's refusal to continue with Journey without Perry and the early signs that Sony had lost interest in the band without Perry were warning signs that Schon and Cain didn't seem to hear. As it turned out...both Smith and Sony were right not to back Schon and Cain's experiment.

This has always fascinated me. It seemed to me that Steve Smith was VERY willing to be a member of Journey again with Perry as the singer. Conversely, he had ZERO interest in Journey without Perry as part of the band. This is quite telling, coming from a guy who was fired from Journey (along with Valory), by Perry's choice. Granted, Perry later admitted he was dead wrong for firing Smith and Valory and even said it was a wrong decision that he would never do, if he had the choice again. I still find it interesting that Smith would (seemingly) be this loyal to a guy who fired him from the band (for no cause, from what I can tell). Does anyone know what's behind Smith's apparent loyalty to Perry? Or, is it as simple as he just didn't think Journey had any shot of being taken seriously without Perry?

John from Boston

[Matthew]

It should be noted that DVD's are platinum at 500,000 copies sold and gold at 250,000.

Didn't know that...Thanks for clarifying. That still puts "Raised on Radio" lower on the list than Matthew was claiming.

Dave - I stand corrected. Thanks for posting the figures.

[Matthew]

I reckon ROR is Journey's third best album. Perhaps coincidentally it is the third highest selling too. I'd also say that Escape is the best (it sold the most) followed by Frontiers (the second highest selling).

Not even close.

Escape- 9 million
Frontiers-6
Evolution -3
Departure- 3
Infinity--3
ROR- 2
TBF-1

Captured- 2
GH-10
GH Live- gold


Arrival- under 500k
Red 13- under 500k
Generations- under 500k


source- RIAA.com

And I stand corrected by you too, Deano.

Let me quickly revise my big theory...I'll be back in a minute.

[FormerJrnyFan]

I reckon ROR is Journey's third best album. Perhaps coincidentally it is the third highest selling too. I'd also say that Escape is the best (it sold the most) followed by Frontiers (the second highest selling).

Not even close.

Escape- 9 million
Frontiers-6
Evolution -3
Departure- 3
Infinity--3
ROR- 2
TBF-1

Captured- 2
GH-10
GH Live- gold


Arrival- under 500k
Red 13- under 500k
Generations- under 500k


source- RIAA.com

And I stand corrected by you too, Deano.

Let me quickly revise my big theory...I'll be back in a minute.

Revise your what??????? Oh, sorry, OT

[fredinator]

I am still trying to sort things out for myself about this band because I love the band and their music and memories, etc., etc. I'm a little confused about something regarding money and royalties and so forth; do they all get an equal cut of the money while they were a member of the band? If so, I'm wondering why Neal is so broke and/or Jon (if I've read the posts here right) and Steve P is wealthy and got bank, etc. I have also read that Neal likes Journey ok but not all the music and he keeps the band going to pay the bills. Would Steve P owe them anything more than what he's given if this is the case? Also, Herbie is a pretty colorful guy but from some of the interviews I've read he (to me) seems a little, nutty?? Okay, I'm running for cover...

Nancy

[Granny]

I am still trying to sort things out for myself about this band because I love the band and their music and memories, etc., etc. I'm a little confused about something regarding money and royalties and so forth; do they all get an equal cut of the money while they were a member of the band? If so, I'm wondering why Neal is so broke and/or Jon (if I've read the posts here right) and Steve P is wealthy and got bank, etc. I have also read that Neal likes Journey ok but not all the music and he keeps the band going to pay the bills. Would Steve P owe them anything more than what he's given if this is the case? Also, Herbie is a pretty colorful guy but from some of the interviews I've read he (to me) seems a little, nutty?? Okay, I'm running for cover...

Nancy

Nancy, I'm with you. They have me so confused at this point, i'm not sure what happened when and WHY. maybe one of the men can discern this for us. Like a time line and reasons why and what, when and where. I used to think I knew.!!! ? like why Perry really left and why -why Smitty left or was fired! Only up til 1998 and why Neal really chose to go on? especailly with SA. He was just OK. I hated the red leather pants and the wiggle didn't do anything for me. He had nice shirts!!

[Enigma869]

I hated the red leather pants and the wiggle didn't do anything for me. He had nice shirts!!

Nice shirts??? Sounds like another true music fan! Augeri was wearing his wife's white "blouse" in that 2001 DVD! Sorry, but dudes just don't wear "shirts" like that!

John from Boston

[Enigma869]

I am still trying to sort things out for myself about this band because I love the band and their music and memories, etc., etc. I'm a little confused about something regarding money and royalties and so forth; do they all get an equal cut of the money while they were a member of the band? If so, I'm wondering why Neal is so broke and/or Jon (if I've read the posts here right) and Steve P is wealthy and got bank, etc. I have also read that Neal likes Journey ok but not all the music and he keeps the band going to pay the bills. Would Steve P owe them anything more than what he's given if this is the case? Also, Herbie is a pretty colorful guy but from some of the interviews I've read he (to me) seems a little, nutty?? Okay, I'm running for cover...

Nancy

I'm not an expert on this subject and certainly don't pretend to know all the details that were hammered out in the contract. My best guess is that Perry probably gets an equal share for any material that involves music his voice made famous. I would think this would at the very least be true for songs that Perry wrote or co-wrote (which was most of them). I've always said Perry is the smartest "member" of Journey. He's taking it easy in his "retirement" and still making the same amount of money without having to bust his ass with the rigorous touring schedule!

John from Boston

[fredinator]

Yeah, it is confusing, and fascinating--they are GOLDEN when they get together and create something yet they seem to hate each oher like, I don't know, children, I guess, the rest of the time!! Arteests, maybe... I think I'm one of these that if I KNEW THE STORY, then maybe I could FIX it, you know?