OT: SADDAM IS DEAD

[conversationpc]

and how can you take something like that seriously that didn't involve ANYONE with any actual military experience.

That same sentence can be applied to thre president, Vice president and Wolfowitz. NO military service, yet we should take them seriously?

Fuck no! That would be like having a heart surgeon who never had bypass.

Don't you mean "performed" a bypass?

Or somebody who partied instead of going to do his military duty and then lied about it and got his dad's clout to help him cover it up?

I love how you liberals still haven't been able to find the evidence for that accusation. Dan Rather's career was basically ended because of his insane hatred of Bush.

[Rockindeano]

My party...? You presume to know what my party is. What a presumption!!!

I knew this was coming, especially from you. Hell, I wouldn't admit I was a republican either.

I like how you try to hang your service over my head. Go try to demean someone else. I'm entirely unaffected by your comments as you simply have no idea who you're talking down to.

I wasn't hanging it over your head. I just get a kick out of the pro War people who never once set foot in uniform. Total hypocrisy.

That's your problem. You talk DOWN TO people instead of EQUALLY WITH them.

I have seen your tired act for years over at BT and now here. Why the hell should I talk equally with you? You hate me because of Augeri's ineptness and then his dihonesty, and you need to blame the "Blog Guy." Whatever floats your boat.

Bringing up the enlistment smack was you - not me.

Yes it was. You can read. Again, I find 100% hypocrisy in those that are gung ho to clean up the world, play bang bang and go boom, and won't even consider enlisting in the US military.

If you want to make an enemy of me - fine. You should do some intelligence first before you charge ahead otherwise your attacks are based on misinformation just like the info about WMD that fooled us and the rest of the world.

I see right through your permeable smokescreen; It's, take on an argument, and then when argument swings against you, deflect and then finally, bail out.

I have kicked your sorry ass up and down melodic Rock avenue and frankly, it's getting tiresome. YOU sir, should get YOUR information straight, especially when challenging me on the Augeri issue.

[Rockindeano]

I love how you liberals still haven't been able to find the evidence for that accusation. Dan Rather's career was basically ended because of his insane hatred of Bush.

Rather never should have taken that story, being a man in the news; however, there is NO denying Bush was absent on military weekends when drug screening was conducted. YOU can spin that anyway you choose to.

[conversationpc]

Oh yeah...I loved this tidbit from today. So much for Pelosi's promise of bipartisanship on behalf of the newly elected majority in Congress...

Democrats To Start Without GOP Input

As they prepare to take control of Congress this week and face up to campaign pledges to restore bipartisanship and openness, Democrats are planning to largely sideline Republicans from the first burst of lawmaking.

House Democrats intend to pass a raft of popular measures as part of their well-publicized plan for the first 100 hours. They include tightening ethics rules for lawmakers, raising the minimum wage, allowing more research on stem cells and cutting interest rates on student loans.

But instead of allowing Republicans to fully participate in deliberations, as promised after the Democratic victory in the Nov. 7 midterm elections, Democrats now say they will use House rules to prevent the opposition from offering alternative measures, assuring speedy passage of the bills and allowing their party to trumpet early victories...

Business as usual, I guess.

[conversationpc]

I love how you liberals still haven't been able to find the evidence for that accusation. Dan Rather's career was basically ended because of his insane hatred of Bush.

Rather never should have taken that story, being a man in the news; however, there is NO denying Bush was absent on military weekends when drug screening was conducted. YOU can spin that anyway you choose to.

I don't know whether he was or not. I also cannot prove that Clinton purposely evaded the draft but we all think he did.

[ohsherrie]

and how can you take something like that seriously that didn't involve ANYONE with any actual military experience.

That same sentence can be applied to thre president, Vice president and Wolfowitz. NO military service, yet we should take them seriously?

Fuck no! That would be like having a heart surgeon who never had bypass.

Don't you mean "performed" a bypass?

Or somebody who partied instead of going to do his military duty and then lied about it and got his dad's clout to help him cover it up?

I love how you liberals still haven't been able to find the evidence for that accusation. Dan Rather's career was basically ended because of his insane hatred of Bush.

I love how the Bushies try to make it seem as if it didn't happen just because it was so well covered and protected that no one has been able(or allowed) to pin it down. Dan Rather is a prime example of someone being Dead Right.

[conversationpc]

I love how the Bushies try to make it seem as if it didn't happen just because it was so well covered and protected that no one has been able(or allowed) to pin it down. Dan Rather is a prime example of someone being Dead Right.

I love how the libs try to make it seem as if it did happen because fake documents were "uncovered". The dude used forged documents. He was Dead Wrong.

Besides that, I never said it didn't happen. At least he was in A branch of the military, unlike Clinton.

So much for libs having more integrity than "Bushies", huh?

[Rockindeano]

I don't know whether he was or not. I also cannot prove that Clinton purposely evaded the draft but we all think he did.

I think he did evade it on purpose and I don't care. Clinton was NOT pro war when he did so. There is a big difference in being pro bang bang and NOT going, and not going because you don't agree with it.

[fredinator]

You know, when Republicans are put in a corner because of their nonsensical arguments, they resort to: a. calling their adversary names; and b. trying to make some kind of goofy argument about Clinton. These are tired, old excuses and I think most Americans know that now. Can't you think of some other way to defend your views? That's just it, there is no defense. I don't think conservatives have any kind of imagination; it seems you all just drag out the same old stories trying to make your points.

And that BS about swooping in and saving people from dictators and genocide because it's the right thing to do--what about Rwanda? what about Sierra Leone? There are many others... That argument is just a lot of BS and I think most people with any sense know that... Think of something else to defend why we are in that mess in Iraq...

By the way, I thought we declared war on Osama Bin Laden, anway... I never figured out why we ended up in Iraq, what's up with that?

[fredinator]

Another thing, what worries me most is how Bush handles other things, such as, Katrina... I had been willing to cut him some slack on Iraq up until he flew to New Orleans, what was it, 4 or 5 days after and was marching around on the outskirts of New Orleans and then declared that infamous remark about you're doing such a fine job, Brownie! I just about fell over... I knew right then this man was either insane or a complete dodo bird... His administration has mishandled some other things, too, but Katrina capped it for me... That one man cried on Meet The Press about how badly they needed help and this Bush has the nerve to go down there and say to the people what a fine job they were doing. Does the man have ANY sense? This is why I am VERY concerned about his handling of Iraq... Go ahead, ConversationPC, and Fyre, and whoever, paste some chart or quote you googled and call me names and then blame it on Clinton...

[ohsherrie]

I love how the Bushies try to make it seem as if it didn't happen just because it was so well covered and protected that no one has been able(or allowed) to pin it down. Dan Rather is a prime example of someone being Dead Right.

I love how the libs try to make it seem as if it did happen because fake documents were "uncovered". The dude used forged documents. He was Dead Wrong.

Besides that, I never said it didn't happen. At least he was in A branch of the military, unlike Clinton.

So much for libs having more integrity than "Bushies", huh?

I knew about the National Guard stuff WAY before Dan Rather made an attempt to inform the public about it. Besides, I'm not convinced the documents were fake. I think the people who provided them had been "got to" and forced into towing the line. The only thing Dan Rather was wrong in was trying to fight through the stranglehold the Republican party had on the truth about their favorite son.

Yeah, ole' Georgie signed on the dotted line then reneged on it, and that gives him military experience . John Kerry put his life on the line but the Republican smear spinners managed to denigrate it because of his post war honesty about the realities of it. How much did the heroism of a soldier mean to the Reps then? If that isn't hypocricy in action I don't know what is.

[ohsherrie]

Great points fredinator. Just don't expect a real answer from the Reps because all you'll get are excuses and diversions.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

My party...? You presume to know what my party is. What a presumption!!!

I knew this was coming, especially from you. Hell, I wouldn't admit I was a republican either.

You knew WHAT was coming? FACT: I'm neither Republican nor Democrat.

I'm an AMERICAN CITIZEN and entirely unaffiliated with ANY political party. So you really don't know anything about my political views.

I wasn't hanging it over your head. I just get a kick out of the pro War people who never once set foot in uniform. Total hypocrisy.

Don't play coy. You hung it over my head.

"pro War"...? Are you talking to ME? First, I'm not "pro War". I'm for taking military action when needed. It's not a prerequisite to have been in a uniform to hold that value. That may be YOUR hang up but it's NOT REALITY.

I have seen your tired act for years over at BT and now here. Why the hell should I talk equally with you?

I could list many reasons but ultimately, it's your problem and not mine.

You hate me because of Augeri's ineptness and then his dihonesty, and you need to blame the "Blog Guy." Whatever floats your boat.

I have better things to do with my time and energy than to waste it on hating you. You must really hold yourself up high to think anyone would!

Yes it was. You can read. Again, I find 100% hypocrisy in those that are gung ho to clean up the world, play bang bang and go boom, and won't even consider enlisting in the US military.

I don't know who you're addressing there. It can't be me.

I see right through your permeable smokescreen; It's, take on an argument, and then when argument swings against you, deflect and then finally, bail out.

I have kicked your sorry ass up and down melodic Rock avenue and frankly, it's getting tiresome. YOU sir, should get YOUR information straight, especially when challenging me on the Augeri issue.

Hmmm...I guess the jig is up.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I haven't placed blame however you and others - particularly Deano - have taken 100% credit.

As someone who keenly understands what went down, I would never have done that.
Many, many, variables were involved.
I was the first guy on this forum to recklessly open my yammer about lipsynching.
That much is true.
It is also true that Deano was the impetus that allows for Jeff to be there today.
That's not my dogmatic thoughts or Deano's, that actually comes straight from the mouth of a band member.

My response was regarding you claiming that I'm blaming Deano for SA's firing. I was stating that I wasn't blaming and that blame had nothing to do with the topic. Try keeping things in context, please.

A doctrine of preemptive war pivots on the magnitude of the threat a nation poses.

As a leaked classified British Intelligence memo (prior to the war) aptly stated, "Saddam was not threatening his neighbors, and his WMD capability was less than that of Libya, North Korea or Iran." and "Military action was now seen as inevitable. Bush wanted to remove Saddam, through military action, justified by the conjunction of terrorism and WMD. But the intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy."

That's a fair perspective. It doesn't make it the ultimate truth.

I'm not the one spinning like some epileptic Chanukah dreidel.
The National Intelligence Estimate clearly stated that this Iraq folly has caused more terrorism, not less.
Why are you even entering the fray when you're not equipped with the most basic of facts?
Or, do you take after Dubya, and simply go on gut-instinct alone?

The "basic facts" that you're presenting aren't the WHOLE PICTURE. You want to frame what you want into a neat little window and then throw a rock through it.

Because its sooo nonsensical I don't want to stoop to dignifying it.
Plus, I want to save you from further embarassment by calling attention to it.

Thanks but I don't need your saving grace.

According to your harebrained logic, because Saddam was a bad man, I am prohibited from being irked about anything in my life (including my favorite band)?

That IS nonsensical. That goodness that it's NOT my logic.

How can you gauge how politically active I am in my day-to-day life from this forum.
I come here to discuss the band, Journey, not to influence policy.
Your argument is shit. Stop yanking my crank.

No yanking. Here's what I said:
You've shown more concern and outrage about someone lip synching than you have about a LUNATIC TYRANT who's committed some REAL sins.

I'm responding to what you've posted IN THIS THREAD.

[lights1961]

speaking WMDS... Clinton KNEW he had em... and was willing to go to war over em in 1998, before 9/11...Maddie Albright and Al Gore were making hey **rushing us to go over there** back in the day... or does everyone forget....**intellgence** were all over the WMDS even then....but they wimpered out... becuase his gay left wing of the party couldn't deal with it---at that time----he left it for Gore to handle. but oh yea.. Gore Lost... so in comes W with a plan....to topple the govt of Iraq, done, have Iraqi hold elections, done---and trial for Saddam by his own people.. done... excuted by his own people done.. My guess is if 9/11 did not happen this plan would not have been done when it did, heck it might have always been on the back burner........ Bush would have waited for the next 15 un resolutions.....and by now he would have had the WMDS more stockpiled-- instead of shipped off to Syria, which then shipped them off to Iran...disclaimer...not facts just theorizing on that part of it---the rest just my opinion..

Rick

[Saint John]

Another thing, what worries me most is how Bush handles other things, such as, Katrina... I had been willing to cut him some slack on Iraq up until he flew to New Orleans, what was it, 4 or 5 days after and was marching around on the outskirts of New Orleans and then declared that infamous remark about you're doing such a fine job, Brownie! I just about fell over... I knew right then this man was either insane or a complete dodo bird... His administration has mishandled some other things, too, but Katrina capped it for me... That one man cried on Meet The Press about how badly they needed help and this Bush has the nerve to go down there and say to the people what a fine job they were doing. Does the man have ANY sense? This is why I am VERY concerned about his handling of Iraq... Go ahead, ConversationPC, and Fyre, and whoever, paste some chart or quote you googled and call me names and then blame it on Clinton...

I won't call you names but I WILL give you my take on Katrina. It was sickening to see SO many able bodied people who have become too dependent on the government. They live in public housing, receive food stamps from the government, are provided free health insurance and a public education. Yet, these people who have virtually no "overhead," didn't have the money necessary to buy a bus ticket out of town. Then, to top it off, they DEMAND the government relocate them, feed them and find them jobs. Fuck, most of them weren't working in the FIRST place. This country provides a wealth of opportunity....opportunity that has been forgotten for the notion of government reliance. People have become addicted to handouts. Katrina proved to ME that there are many in this country who are failing as citizens. Has it become too much to ask that Americans have a savings account and a plan for when "things go wrong?" How about a decent credit history and a charge card for when "things go wrong?" Katrina showed me that our government can't rely on major inner cities being able to exercise even SOME common sense, and that New Orleans, like most inner cities, is basically the equivalent of a third-world country.

[Rockindeano]

Nice post.

[ohsherrie]

Nice post.

I agree.

Knox, you summed that particular situation up pretty well.




However, that still doesn't let Bush off the hook for his failure to have people in FEMA and Homeland Security that had a handle on the situation.

[Saint John]

Nice post.

I agree.

Knox, you summed that particular situation up pretty well.




However, that still doesn't let Bush off the hook for his failure to have people in FEMA and Homeland Security that had a handle on the situation.

Knox???????????

[treetopovskaya]

As someone who keenly understands what went down, I would never have done that.
Many, many, variables were involved.
I was the first guy on this forum to recklessly open my yammer about lipsynching.
That much is true.
It is also true that Deano was the impetus that allows for Jeff to be there today.
That's not my dogmatic thoughts or Deano's, that actually comes straight from the mouth of a band member.

allows jeff?

does that not scare anyone else? people should watch who they make friends with... just saying. }:C)

i LOVE journey & i la la LOVE jss but all of them (not including jeff) are guilty of whatever went down. 4 guys come out all clean while they leave a "friend" twisting in the wind. thanks shouldn't be given out for that. jmo.

[conversationpc]

You know, when Republicans are put in a corner because of their nonsensical arguments, they resort to: a. calling their adversary names; and b. trying to make some kind of goofy argument about Clinton. These are tired, old excuses and I think most Americans know that now. Can't you think of some other way to defend your views? That's just it, there is no defense. I don't think conservatives have any kind of imagination; it seems you all just drag out the same old stories trying to make your points.

Sorry to break it to you fredinator but Democrats do the exact same thing. We've had several years now of libs calling Bush a murderer, liar, dummy, etc. You've also had Dems saying he concocted the war for political gain (Kennedy), that he purposely targets civilians for murder (Kucinich), and a whole host of other things. Yes, the Republicans in office did the same thing thing while Clinton was in office but it's just as bad now, if not worse, than it was then.

As far as making goofy arguments? You've got to be kidding, right? Well, let's see...Bush must've forced our intelligence to say that Iraq had WMDs, along with most of the rest of the countries in the world. Bush either knew about 9/11 ahead of time and allowed it to happen or outright planned it, according to many leftists. Bush and Cheney also only concocted this war for political gain and so that big bad Halliburton could dominate the globe with their shady back room. {insert oohs and ahs here}. You want to talk about goofy, the Republicans have nothing over the Democrats since Bush has been in office.

[conversationpc]

I won't call you names but I WILL give you my take on Katrina. It was sickening to see SO many able bodied people who have become too dependent on the government. They live in public housing, receive food stamps from the government, are provided free health insurance and a public education. Yet, these people who have virtually no "overhead," didn't have the money necessary to buy a bus ticket out of town. Then, to top it off, they DEMAND the government relocate them, feed them and find them jobs. Fuck, most of them weren't working in the FIRST place. This country provides a wealth of opportunity....opportunity that has been forgotten for the notion of government reliance. People have become addicted to handouts. Katrina proved to ME that there are many in this country who are failing as citizens. Has it become too much to ask that Americans have a savings account and a plan for when "things go wrong?" How about a decent credit history and a charge card for when "things go wrong?" Katrina showed me that our government can't rely on major inner cities being able to exercise even SOME common sense, and that New Orleans, like most inner cities, is basically the equivalent of a third-world country.

Post of the day right here.

[Rockindeano]

Sorry to break it fredinator but Democrats do the exact same thing. We've had several years now of libs calling Bush a murderer, liar, dummy, etc. You've also had Dems saying he concocted the war for political gain (Kennedy), that he purposely targets civilians for murder (Kucinich), and a whole host of other things. Yes, the Republicans in office did the same thing thing while Clinton was in office but it's just as bad now, if not worse, than it was then.

The Democrats you just cited, Kucinich and Kennedy are political nobodies. The republicans we speak of are the President and Vice president. Big difference

[conversationpc]

Sorry to break it fredinator but Democrats do the exact same thing. We've had several years now of libs calling Bush a murderer, liar, dummy, etc. You've also had Dems saying he concocted the war for political gain (Kennedy), that he purposely targets civilians for murder (Kucinich), and a whole host of other things. Yes, the Republicans in office did the same thing thing while Clinton was in office but it's just as bad now, if not worse, than it was then.

The Democrats you just cited, Kucinich and Kennedy are political nobodies. The republicans we speak of are the President and Vice president. Big difference

One thing I dislike about Bush is that he doesn't fight back enough. When's the last time you heard Bush fire back and call people names like the ones he's been called? Cheney does it occasionally but he's not up to the Democratic level, either.

Try again.

[ohsherrie]

One thing I dislike about Bush is that he doesn't fight back enough.

He can't afford to. Anyone with that many skeletons in his administration doesn't want to kick too many shins.

[NealIsGod]

Sorry to break it fredinator but Democrats do the exact same thing. We've had several years now of libs calling Bush a murderer, liar, dummy, etc. You've also had Dems saying he concocted the war for political gain (Kennedy), that he purposely targets civilians for murder (Kucinich), and a whole host of other things. Yes, the Republicans in office did the same thing thing while Clinton was in office but it's just as bad now, if not worse, than it was then.

The Democrats you just cited, Kucinich and Kennedy are political nobodies. The republicans we speak of are the President and Vice president. Big difference

One thing I dislike about Bush is that he doesn't fight back enough. When's the last time you heard Bush fire back and call people names like the ones he's been called? Cheney does it occasionally but he's not up to the Democratic level, either.

Try again.

What would Bush gain by lowering himself to that level?

[conversationpc]

One thing I dislike about Bush is that he doesn't fight back enough.

He can't afford to. Anyone with that many skeletons in his administration doesn't want to kick too many shins.

Baloney...The libs are all about exploiting as many skeletons as possible regardless of if Bush fires back or not. I'm not a huge fan of Bush outside of a couple of issues but the libs could learn a lot from him on how to conduct themselves publicly.

[fredinator]

Well, there you go again, putting people in a pidgeon hole and then calling them a name. I am not a "lib," who are you calling "libs?" What is a "lib" to you? I do not agree with ANY of your opinions in any way, shape or form. That does not make me a "lib."

As far as New Orleans, I DON'T agree with St. John: a lot of those people were elderly, disabled, etc. YOU just pidgeon-holed all those people into welfare-scammers... A LOT of those people displaced in New Orleans were hardworking, taxpaying families. MOST of them were black; hence, the welfare-scamming charge. OhSherrie was right, there is no way to discuss anything with folks like you. Sorry, but it kind of makes me feel ill, especially since ConversationPC, you declare yourself to be a christian.

[fredinator]

P.S. to St. John--how in the world can you equate "things go wrong" with a hurricane the size of Katrina blasting through, flooding your home, killing family members, destroying all of your meager possessions? Sorry--your welfare tirade has made sense to me for those who do cheat and I give you that, but Katrina was different, and you can't say that Bush handled it well in any way, shape or form.

EVERYBODY in the U.S. saw that GIANT storm headed for New Orleans--how could G. W. Bush have not prepared for it??

[conversationpc]

Well, there you go again, putting people in a pidgeon hole and then calling them a name. I am not a "lib," who are you calling "libs?" What is a "lib" to you? I do not agree with ANY of your opinions in any way, shape or form. That does not make me a "lib."

You've made yourself out to be just as difficult to discuss things with, so don't hand me that line. Other than that, if you're not a "lib" then my apologies.

Sorry, but it kind of makes me feel ill, especially since ConversationPC, you declare yourself to be a christian.

I've never claimed to be perfect and the only reason you're throwing this out there right now is as a red herring to try to throw the hypocrite label around without any real evidence of it. I have very strong opinions, yes, but I will also admit when I'm wrong. Other than that, if I feel that my position is right, I'm going to fight like crazy for what I believe in. Do yourself a favor before you start inferring the hypocrite label because, typically, that label sticks to the accuser as much as it does to the accused.