"Play everything with conviction AND INTEGRITY"

[jrnyman28]

But Dave, what I meant by that not being the case with TBF is that they had no problem getting it on the radio even after a 10 yr hiatus and all the old hits that are played now were around then too.

That was because of the push from the label and management. Once the label/management dropped their push (due to Perry not being able to help promote/tour) the album dropped. And the same scenario happened with Arrival...only from the start.

As far as the fans not minding, where are all those humdreds of thousands of fans that eagerly awaited and went out and bought TBF, but didn't stick around for the new Arrival?

I never deny the appeal of the reunion. And I never deny people miss Perry. But Journey as a whole does not have a solid commercial appeal anymore. They haven't in 20 years.

[whocares]

Trial by Fire sold more records than Arrival and the total sold and givenaway of Generations combined. And The band released a message of love to rock stations AND wylaw to a.c. stations at the same time. Both were "hits" on the radio. Arrival didn't have 2 hits on the radio, they were lucky to get them to play higher place.

[i]

they were lucky to get them to play higher place.

This should have been a biigger hit. Great song!!!

[ohsherrie]

Everything you said is true Dave. But, that doesn't make it true that "the fans don't mind" that Perry's not in the band. That's just an absurd statement for Jon to make. A lot of the fans do mind. And, it isn't the old music that keeping the new music off the radio. It's that there is not enough interest in the new music, and I think a big part of that lack of interest, both on the parts of the industry and the fans, is the lack of Perry.

[jrnyman28]

Cain is dellusional. So are you J28. Saying Perry brought them success is not saying that he wrote the music by himself.

No kidding. But that has been the way the fans who would not support a Journey w/o Perry acted. I STILL see posts that say Perry is "the" reason for Journey's success. I did not say he wrote the music by himself. And I know Cain made it look that way but I am confident that it was a simplified example of the bias Journey has encountered from those Perry fans.

It wouldn't have been as popular of Jon Cain was the lead singer and thank God he's not. Cain is saying he was there before Perry? or does it just read that way?

I believe it reads that way. He omits Gregg (since Gregg is not a part of the band anymore and has never been a hurdle for the band) which makes it sound like he is ignoring that era. And remember, the article surely editted Jon's interview to the confines of the article.

Fact is, that Perry is the most proactive cheerleader for Journey, because he's the one making sure "re-issues" come out. That equals sales, and that equals royalties for the rest of the boys. However small they might be.

He ios a cheerleader for HIS era of Journey...not for "Journey".

If they think the record companies drop the ball on new releases, then they should take a look in the mirror, when they won't even play the newer material over the old. Their in a position to have the fans over the proverbial barrell. Once the tickets are sold, they can play Mary had a little lamb of Michael row your boat ashore,

I agree 100%!!

[jrnyman28]

But I actually feel Jon was more integral to Journey's commercial success than Perry was.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think that’s nuts. Even you say: “Perry got Journey on the radio.”

Without that, there would be no commercial success.

Jon definitely added to that mysterious mix that made Journey bigger than the sum of its parts, whatever that is that happens to bands. But the writing is by no means brilliant.

I love Journey’s songs, but it’s Perry’s voice that makes them stand out, not the writing.

And I love Augeri’s voice, but it just does not stand out like Perry’s.

imo

Can you say there was no change between Departure and Escape? The change was HUGE and unmistakable. Yes. Perry got them on the radio. Yes. Perry began Journey's road to superstardom. And Yes. Perry was still a part of that eventual superstardom both in writing and singing. But it was the addition of Jon Cain that pushed Journey over the top in terms of COMMERCIAL success. I do NOT believe "Escape" would have been any where near as huge if Gregg was still in the band instead of Jon (although I really wish he had been. I really don't like Jon much!)

It is fine that Perry's voice made the songs stand out for you. I think it HAD to because if you look at the lyrics they were really not that strong. But add Jon's writing (partnered with Perry's) and now you have that something!

[jrnyman28]

And how about the times NEAL has stated in interview that whenever they played "their new music" at the concerts, "the fans just didn't get it'', so they stick to playing the "greatest hits" cuz, that's is what the audience WANTS to hear???

Lori

Sadly that is a sign of the times. There used to be a time when audiences wanted to hear something new, something different. There used to be a time when a band could play their material completely different than the wayit was recorded and the audience would dig it. Now? No way. It is like that for all bands save maybe Bruce. The audiences only want the songs they know, the way they know them. Hell...that could be a contributing factor in what Journey is alleged to be doing. And it is certainly part of the reason they went with Steve in the first place.

[whocares]

j28 you know exactly what I meant when I said "journey" I'm using the title of the band, not for an era. JOURNEY is the name on the records, not Journey featuring Steve Perry, or the Steve Perry Era of Journey. Sure he himself is making more money too, but he doesn't need it like the other guys still touring incessantly do.


If you read Herberts "interview/rant", he claims he did all the work on the Houston concert, we'll never know for sure. It's the word of the former manager against the word of ONE OF the former lead singers. It's all a clusterfuck, the world of Journey.

[A Fire Inside]

4. Your reference to the 2 or 3 thousand that show up at Casino's or County Fairs was really dumb..sorry but it was. They average more than twice that, and have rarely if ever played the COUNTY level. Casino's are actually high-end gigs these days too boot. I DO, however, have a problem with even the State Fair circuit.

They have played the county level... a couple of years ago they played the Stanislaus county fair in CA. But that's not really out of the ordinary... Heart played a county fair in Dixon, I think, recently and Huey Lewis (who had a ton of VH1Classic promo for his new GH CD) is playing Stanislaus this year.

[Eric]

If Message of Love was a hit on the radio than All the Way was a hit........neither are hits, live staples or on any regular playlists. TBF shipped platinum and had a grammy nominated song. That is about the extent of it. There has been no continuing demand for the album or its songs to either radio or on a live setlist.

[jrnyman28]

the few times I saw this incarnation, more than with Perry I might add, I knew I'd hear the hits, but i was there more to hear stuff they didn't play often or the new material. Last years 30th anniversary concert was my last for the band, because I know it's just gonna be a nostalgia act even more now. I was very disappointed that they don't play the newer stuff. it's like slapping Augeri in the face and saying the music was worthless to even record. They'd still be in the same place they are now financially, if they had just toured without new music.

I agree completely. I go a LONG way back saying that the band needed to push their new music better if they wanted Steve to be supported. Last year was the best setlist we will ever get. I would not be going this year if not for the kindness of a friend I met through Journey.

[Moon Beam]

I personally would have loved to have been preview to songs
like "Higher Place" and "Faith In The Heartland" but
they NEVER played any stuff on the radio after Perry
departed.
I just might be a huge fan of the current line up "If"
radio stations would have just played the songs!
I never go and buy new CD's unless I am familar with
some of the songs.
I am a big Journey fan just not one
that will buy material blindly.

[whocares]

And how about the times NEAL has stated in interview that whenever they played "their new music" at the concerts, "the fans just didn't get it'', so they stick to playing the "greatest hits" cuz, that's is what the audience WANTS to hear???

Lori

Sadly that is a sign of the times. There used to be a time when audiences wanted to hear something new, something different. There used to be a time when a band could play their material completely different than the wayit was recorded and the audience would dig it. Now? No way. It is like that for all bands save maybe Bruce. The audiences only want the songs they know, the way they know them. Hell...that could be a contributing factor in what Journey is alleged to be doing. And it is certainly part of the reason they went with Steve in the first place.

You are assuming again, like Neal and Jon are. TRUE fans go to see the NEW music as well, maybe even as much as the old hits. It's not about playing the new music, it's about reliving the "glory days", to steal a song title form Bruce. I don't want to hear the stuff I already have heard literally thousands of times on the Radio, or in my cd player. I want new music, or something I haven't heard much if at all, that's why I bought a ticket in the first place.

[i]

Can you say there was no change between Departure and Escape? The change was HUGE and unmistakable. Yes. Perry got them on the radio. Yes. Perry began Journey's road to superstardom. And Yes. Perry was still a part of that eventual superstardom both in writing and singing. But it was the addition of Jon Cain that pushed Journey over the top in terms of COMMERCIAL success. I do NOT believe "Escape" would have been any where near as huge if Gregg was still in the band instead of Jon (although I really wish he had been. I really don't like Jon much!)

It is fine that Perry's voice made the songs stand out for you. I think it HAD to because if you look at the lyrics they were really not that strong. But add Jon's writing (partnered with Perry's) and now you have that something!

lol, not trying to pick you apart jrnyman, my biggest arguement is with:

But I actually feel Jon was more integral to Journey's commercial success than Perry was.

I contend that Escape could NOT have been as huge without Perry, but it's debatable that it could not have been as successful without Jon. Did he tweak the writing just enough to make the difference, probably. Could some other good writer have done so as well, maybe. Could some other singer have sold the same songs? Well, I think we’re seeing the answer to that…

I just don’t see how Jon could possibly be "more integral to Journey's commercial success than Perry was.”

That’s all man. And it’s just my opinion.

[jrnyman28]

Trial by Fire sold more records than Arrival and the total sold and givenaway of Generations combined.

Well yes, because of the promotion and the reunion hype. However, it shipped platinum and it took quite a long while before it reached double paltinum. But still, it "did" sell more.

And The band released a message of love to rock stations AND wylaw to a.c. stations at the same time. Both were "hits" on the radio.

Sorry, MOL was never a "hit" on the radio. And WYLAW really did not last long. Can you name the third single?

Arrival didn't have 2 hits on the radio, they were lucky to get them to play higher place.

Higher Place and All The Way were also released simultaneously with ATW ranking in the top 50. And HP did rank just below the top 50....WITHOUT any more "push" than the BTM (which of course had VERY little to do with Journey releasing a new CD.)

[jrnyman28]

Everything you said is true Dave. But, that doesn't make it true that "the fans don't mind" that Perry's not in the band. That's just an absurd statement for Jon to make.

I agree that it was probably stupid thing to say. But he has a point that the fans ' that come to the shows' do not care...at least not anymore. The fans 'that come to the shows' are there for the music. Journey is touring very well, making good money. And that is due to the fact that the fans 'that go to the shows' don't care that Perry is not there.

A lot of the fans do mind. And, it isn't the old music that keeping the new music off the radio. It's that there is not enough interest in the new music, and I think a big part of that lack of interest, both on the parts of the industry and the fans, is the lack of Perry.

I think there is a LOT more to it than that. I think Journey has done a POOR job at pushing the music and Steve. I think they could have overcome much (never all) of the Perry objections had they handled it properly. Journey shot themselves in the foot...and Sony definately sabotaged their success as well. Remember Me could have opened the new chapter of Journey but Sony yanked it from Armageddon virtually altogether. In the music industry, Sony was Goliath and Journey was David without a slingshot... (And yes, I think Perry could have been that slingshot)

[ohsherrie]

ohsherrie,

You were doing so well recently and then you had to go and eat a Perry sandwich:

No Eric, I just still believe all the things I ever did. I just recently came to appreciate the sound of some of the new music.

1. Journey's ticket sales have to do with the band's stellar live performances and fantastic catalog. DSB exploded well before the word series last year...it seems to pop up in every show, movie, live event etc. It is simply a timeless classic.

Of course it's the catalag that sells the tickets. I know, DSB exploded after Monster.

2. Actually, they did ask Journey to attend the series and they were on tour or just ending (according to Cain)

UhHuh

3. TBF songs are no more popular than Arrival, Red13 or Generation songs. Radio did not play much off TBF. The average concert goer MIGHT know "When You Love a Woman", but not anything else. You should have seen the dazed look on the fan's faces when Journey opened with Message of Love for the Arrival tour in 2001. Perry would help, but Journey is a slave to their greatest hits no matter the front man.

I know, that wasn't my point. I was talking strictly about Cain's remark about there being no point in trying to get new music on the radio because the old music was still so popular. That's just a ridiculous thing to say.

4. Your reference to the 2 or 3 thousand that show up at Casino's or County Fairs was really dumb..sorry but it was. They average more than twice that, and have rarely if ever played the COUNTY level. Casino's are actually high-end gigs these days too boot. I DO, however, have a problem with even the State Fair circuit.

But Eric, they did play county fairs and small casinos. I don't know how many they've averaged since the began touring in '98, but what were the average figures for the Under The Radar tour? For the Generations tour they were giving away a new CD which I'm sure was a draw, but it didn't help the popularity of the CD.

[jrnyman28]

You are assuming again, like Neal and Jon are. TRUE fans go to see the NEW music as well, maybe even as much as the old hits. It's not about playing the new music, it's about reliving the "glory days", to steal a song title form Bruce. I don't want to hear the stuff I already have heard literally thousands of times on the Radio, or in my cd player. I want new music, or something I haven't heard much if at all, that's why I bought a ticket in the first place.

I am not assuming anything. I have seen it for myself. It is happening everywhere. The "die-hards" want to hear the new music. But the everyday, casual fans only want what they know. Look back at the posts from LadySlang (or was it kittykat) when discussing the show. She was surprised that Open Arms was not played and she expected Joureny to play all their hits only. Yet she wants Def Leppard to dig deep.

[jrnyman28]

I contend that Escape could NOT have been as huge without Perry, but it's debatable that it could not have been as successful without Jon. Did he tweak the writing just enough to make the difference, probably. Could some other good writer have done so as well, maybe. Could some other singer have sold the same songs? Well, I think we’re seeing the answer to that…

I just don’t see how Jon could possibly be "more integral to Journey's commercial success than Perry was.”

That’s all man. And it’s just my opinion.

Thats fine bud. No problem. But I think the "sales" speak for that and that is what I say is "commercial". Perry's voice increased sales when he joined, but not to the same extent as Jon's addition. That's all.

And remember, this is coming from someone who does not like Jon. I want Gregg back. In fact, I think the pre-TBF reunion would have been an ideal situation!

[whocares]

I won't get in a pissing match over this, but they're all just opinons, yours and mine.

If Journey only want to play the dirty dozen, and nothing new, then they are not playing for the real fans of the band, only the casual ones.

Not one band can ever claim that everyone (fans) truly went home that night completely satisfied after their concerts, so it's a no win situation.

Perry doesn't trash the band in the few interviews he does, he sells the band (his era or not) Journey. There was supposed to have been an arrangement in 98 according to all sides that they woudlnt' trash talk. Apparently that's what Neal and Jon only wnat to do towards Perry's name anymore. That's too bad for everyone. Especially for Neal & Jon.

[PROPERRY]

And how about the times NEAL has stated in interview that whenever they played "their new music" at the concerts, "the fans just didn't get it'', so they stick to playing the "greatest hits" cuz, that's is what the audience WANTS to hear???

Lori

Sadly that is a sign of the times. There used to be a time when audiences wanted to hear something new, something different. There used to be a time when a band could play their material completely different than the wayit was recorded and the audience would dig it. Now? No way. It is like that for all bands save maybe Bruce. The audiences only want the songs they know, the way they know them. Hell...that could be a contributing factor in what Journey is alleged to be doing. And it is certainly part of the reason they went with Steve in the first place.

You are assuming again, like Neal and Jon are. TRUE fans go to see the NEW music as well, maybe even as much as the old hits. It's not about playing the new music, it's about reliving the "glory days", to steal a song title form Bruce. I don't want to hear the stuff I already have heard literally thousands of times on the Radio, or in my cd player. I want new music, or something I haven't heard much if at all, that's why I bought a ticket in the first place.

I'm not trying to be rude to you, but you should not assume that I haven't seen them in concert.I saw Augeri/Journey ONE time on their very FIRST tour, after the break up of Perry & the band.

I just thought Augeri was an Ok singer, wasn't that impressed with him, I didn't think he was that great of a singer or performer on stage, just my own feelings about it, I'm NOT trying to hurt those who do like Augeri.

Furthermore, I only stated what NEAL HAS SAID in interviews that "when they played their new music, the fans didn't get it'", that is NEAL's statement , NOT MINE, ok.

Lori

[i]

Thats fine bud. No problem. But I think the "sales" speak for that and that is what I say is "commercial". Perry's voice increased sales when he joined, but not to the same extent as Jon's addition. That's all.

Except that when you then subtracted Perry, the sales went in the toilet.

And remember, this is coming from someone who does not like Jon. I want Gregg back. In fact, I think the pre-TBF reunion would have been an ideal situation!

I hear that. That would have been such a great show!!!! I still hope for a Gregg and Neal reunion, at least...

[jrnyman28]

I won't get in a pissing match over this, but they're all just opinons, yours and mine.

No pissing match here.

If Journey only want to play the dirty dozen, and nothing new, then they are not playing for the real fans of the band, only the casual ones.

Absolutely true. But I guess they feel the casual fan is a bigger piece of the pie. I think they are right, but I don't agree with their decision.

Not one band can ever claim that everyone (fans) truly went home that night completely satisfied after their concerts, so it's a no win situation.

Again, absolutely true. But I think it is said the audience expectations sometimes. On the Arrival Tour Journey pulled Open Arms. They got such a back lash from the audience that they dropped one of their Arrival songs so they could put it back in...

Perry doesn't trash the band in the few interviews he does, he sells the band (his era or not) Journey. There was supposed to have been an arrangement in 98 according to all sides that they woudlnt' trash talk. Apparently that's what Neal and Jon only wnat to do towards Perry's name anymore. That's too bad for everyone. Especially for Neal & Jon.

To be honest, it has been a LONG time since I have seen any Perry "trashing" fom Neal and Jon. I get the impression that they have truly moved on from it. But I believe the agreement was that they did not talk about specific events concerning the disolution of the TBF "reunion".

[whocares]

doesn't matter if it was about TBF or not, Perry doesn't trash the guys, yet they do. Schon may publicly say that Perry is welcome back anytime, but he also can't keep his trap shut in trashing Perry given the chance. Even if it isn't always Perry sucks or as Herbie puts it "Perry is a prick" kind of statements.

[ohsherrie]

Everything you said is true Dave. But, that doesn't make it true that "the fans don't mind" that Perry's not in the band. That's just an absurd statement for Jon to make.

I agree that it was probably stupid thing to say. But he has a point that the fans ' that come to the shows' do not care...at least not anymore. The fans 'that come to the shows' are there for the music. Journey is touring very well, making good money. And that is due to the fact that the fans 'that go to the shows' don't care that Perry is not there.

A lot of the fans do mind. And, it isn't the old music that keeping the new music off the radio. It's that there is not enough interest in the new music, and I think a big part of that lack of interest, both on the parts of the industry and the fans, is the lack of Perry.

I think there is a LOT more to it than that. I think Journey has done a POOR job at pushing the music and Steve. I think they could have overcome much (never all) of the Perry objections had they handled it properly. Journey shot themselves in the foot...and Sony definately sabotaged their success as well. Remember Me could have opened the new chapter of Journey but Sony yanked it from Armageddon virtually altogether. In the music industry, Sony was Goliath and Journey was David without a slingshot... (And yes, I think Perry could have been that slingshot)

So you see? We're not really that far apart on this. I just say things with a more Pro-Perry slant, any you say them with a more Pro-band slant. No biggie.

[jrnyman28]

doesn't matter if it was about TBF or not, Perry doesn't trash the guys, yet they do. Schon may publicly say that Perry is welcome back anytime, but he also can't keep his trap shut in trashing Perry given the chance. Even if it isn't always Perry sucks or as Herbie puts it "Perry is a prick" kind of statements.

Again, it has been a VERY LONG time since I have seen anything disparaging from Neal and Jon toward Perry.
You said there was an agreement not to talk trash about each other. I merely stated that I think that is incorrect. I know they shouldn't trash him. But if anyone has the right to, I think it is the guys in the band who worked and "lived" with him. I am with you though that it is nice that OErry does not trash them. Perry has been a stand-up guy since he left Journey!

[Eric]

I'll need some examples of when/where Schon/Cain trashed Perry.

Perry has always been very respectful to anyone and everyone...he is a very polished person it seems. He did call Augeri a sound-a-like but that is fair from his perspective, and it appeared he tried to correct himself even...."or whatever he is".

[Eric]

PROPERRY,

I think many of us fans of the current incarnation feel about the same as you about Augeri...Ok, pretty good.....

I can't understand why an OK singer fronting a great band you once loved isn't enough for you to at least midly support or just not bash.

[conversationpc]

Sorry, MOL was never a "hit" on the radio. And WYLAW really did not last long. Can you name the third single?

My guess is that the third single was "If He Should Break Your Heart". They were still playing that on the '99 tour, if I remember correctly.

[conversationpc]

Perry has always been very respectful to anyone and everyone...

I think it was Stu that had a real bad experience with Perry when he was just a youngster. If he reads this, perhaps he'll share that.