A time to reflect

[Monker]

This is Journey's decision. It's their band, their livelihood. We are just observers. If it's causing grief at MR, that is not Journey's problem.

EXACTLY...and the only person who can take care of that IS ANDREW.

[Marabelle]

I agree with you LaWoman. It is my decision to purchase or not to purchase any of their music or attend any of their concerts. Isn't this what this is all about.
Because just like anything I buy I like to get what I pay for and want to believe it is worthy of my hard earned money. If it's not; then I have a choice never to purchase that product again or write a letter to the manufacturer and demand my money back for false advertisement. I don't know if they are
doing what Deano says they are doing but something seems not quite right. A reasonable manufacturer will provide a guarantee to back their
product and refund your money but the crooked salesman will look you in the eye, smile and not blink cause he wants my money and if he
acts like everything is alright then perhaps or just maybe I'll believe it's me that is wrong and he's making a good product. I don't cherish the
thought that anyone thinks I am stupid cause I'm not. Prove to me you're legit and I'll go to the limit with you; but say nothing and think I'm stupid well;
you won't see ever purchase anything from you again.

[Playitloudforme]

Bravo Andrew and thank you. I've watched the hoopla on several boards over the last few weeks, but have elected to remain silent and open to any possibility. I felt saddened that Journey fans could be so brutal to each other. My voice and my opinion would do little, except how it affected Journey's pockets. Things have changed, outside of the 'tapegate'.

The reviews by journalists now speak volumes. The vast majority of fans aren't part of these message boards, so unless someone tells them, they've purchased tickets for a show with questionable quality. Is that fair? Good case in point, Vince Neil was reportable toasted at a concert in Tampa, and was unable to complete the show. Motley Crue fans would have every right to request their money back. Is it possible that Aerosmith will dump MC? I'd hope so. These aren't $20 anymore...they're $90 or more. Not chump change for most people.

Is a refund or raincheck an option for Journey fans? No. The band is proceeding as if nothing is wrong with SA's voice...and based upon newspaper reviews, that simply isn't the case. Resorting to an alleged 'tape' for some portions or all of the song doesn't seem quite fair to me either. I could do that at home, and save myself one heck of a price tag. Some fans go simply to see/hear Neal play. Cool.. but for me, it was the whole package, not just Neal. To assume that the rest of the fan base are ok with this seems a bit cocky.

There...said it. Done. But I'm not holding my breath for anything from Journey. Ostrich style is their nom-de-plume.

[conversationpc]

So - there remains one entity that has been responsible for all this and this one entitty has not stood up to the plate to deal with it.

JOURNEY

Journey is only responsible for themselves. Yes, I think they need to deal with the situation for the sake of the fans but they are not responsible for all the excrement-flinging monkeys in this forum. From what I've seen, they probably would've found something else to raise a stink about. The people who've gone overboard have only themselves to blame. If you're losing sleep over this kind of crap and you're not either a member of the band, friend or family member of the band, then you need to seek help immediately.

[r@y]

I agree with you LaWoman. It is my decision to purchase or not to purchase any of their music or attend any of their concerts. Isn't this what this is all about.
Because just like anything I buy I like to get what I pay for and want to believe it is worthy of my hard earned money. If it's not; then I have a choice never to purchase that product again or write a letter to the manufacturer and demand my money back for false advertisement. I don't know if they are
doing what Deano says they are doing but something seems not quite right. A reasonable manufacturer will provide a guarantee to back their
product and refund your money but the crooked salesman will look you in the eye, smile and not blink cause he wants my money and if he
acts like everything is alright then perhaps or just maybe I'll believe it's me that is wrong and he's making a good product. I don't cherish the
thought that anyone thinks I am stupid cause I'm not. Prove to me you're legit and I'll go to the limit with you; but say nothing and think I'm stupid well;
you won't see ever purchase anything from you again.

Good post..!

Are you in sales/marketing...


Ray

[StyxCollector]

This is Journey's decision. It's their band, their livelihood. We are just observers. If it's causing grief at MR, that is not Journey's problem.

EXACTLY...and the only person who can take care of that IS ANDREW.

It's been the influx of staunch Journey/Augeri people who have stirred up the pot. I'm sorry you can't see it but if people had not paid Deano any attention, instead of arguing with him, it may have died on its own. I like Journey with Augeri, and this whole situation is sad and pathetic now, but when is enough enough for people to stop slagging mud? If you really wanted this story to go away, you should have ignored Deano.

Instead, folks came here (including Craig Pitman, who I hope is in a better place) and said some vile stuff, including giving out personal information which blows my mind. Andrew - right or wrong in your eyes - let it continue and moderated when he should have.

As was said initially - no one is innocent. Lots of blood in the water here.

Andrew has let this one play out on its own, and I applaud him for allowing the discussions to go on despite them getting ugly sometimes. I mean, BT openly directed people to come to MR and discuss it. So is Journey to blame for some of this, too? You betcha. BT is Journey's house and they redirected by telling people to come here, and ultimately, some of those folks stirred the pot just as much.

It's been very entertaining to watch the fur fly, but as screwed up as the Styx situation is, I can honestly say it has never been as bad as the state of Journey right now.

[LAWoman]

I agree with you LaWoman. It is my decision to purchase or not to purchase any of their music or attend any of their concerts. Isn't this what this is all about.
Because just like anything I buy I like to get what I pay for and want to believe it is worthy of my hard earned money. If it's not; then I have a choice never to purchase that product again or write a letter to the manufacturer and demand my money back for false advertisement. I don't know if they are
doing what Deano says they are doing but something seems not quite right. A reasonable manufacturer will provide a guarantee to back their
product and refund your money but the crooked salesman will look you in the eye, smile and not blink cause he wants my money and if he
acts like everything is alright then perhaps or just maybe I'll believe it's me that is wrong and he's making a good product. I don't cherish the
thought that anyone thinks I am stupid cause I'm not. Prove to me you're legit and I'll go to the limit with you; but say nothing and think I'm stupid well;
you won't see ever purchase anything from you again.

This is not a product liability case. There have been no allegations about CDs, right?
Is there a person here complaining about a show they went to and suspected it was lipsynched? I read a bunch of people from the European shows saying they had a great time and Dean saying they were lipsynched and btw, you can't tell by looking if a show is lipsynched.

So if you go to a show that you believe is lipsynched and you thought it was going to be 100% live, then complain about that. Ask for your money back. Even if every word of the allegations were true, how are you damaged if you don't even go to a show? If you are suspicious, then don't go. All of that is different than blaming Journey for fighting on a message board.

[Marabelle]

personally i haven't been fighting with anyone. i'm just a person who likes music and hate wasting her money.

[r@y]

So - there remains one entity that has been responsible for all this and this one entitty has not stood up to the plate to deal with it.

JOURNEY

Journey is only responsible for themselves. Yes, I think they need to deal with the situation for the sake of the fans but they are not responsible for all the excrement-flinging monkeys in this forum. From what I've seen, they probably would've found something else to raise a stink about. The people who've gone overboard have only themselves to blame. If you're losing sleep over this kind of crap and you're not either a member of the band, friend or family member of the band, then you need to seek help immediately.

Dude, there are some really passionate fans on this board ( and elsewhere ) and trust me, as much as you dont think so, no one is losing sleep over this..

Journey needs to address this for the simple reason : the fans put money in their pocket. Why is that so hard to understand...? What, you think Frontiers Records are paying the band members..??

Get this : There will be no band if there are no fans.

And by the way, all this shit slinging hoopla started to gain momentum AFTER the influx of 'newbies' recently....it was still under control before that happened...


Ray

[StyxCollector]

And by the way, all this shit slinging hoopla started to gain momentum AFTER the influx of 'newbies' recently....it was still under control before that happened...


Ray

Looks like we were posting at the same time!

[conversationpc]

Journey needs to address this for the simple reason : the fans put money in their pocket. Why is that so hard to understand...? What, you think Frontiers Records are paying the band members..??

Get this : There will be no band if there are no fans.

And by the way, all this shit slinging hoopla started to gain momentum AFTER the influx of 'newbies' recently....it was still under control before that happened...

Ray

Do you read? I said in my post that they need to address this. I care about the band as well, but in the end, it's just not worth flinging crap over, at least to the point that it's gone on in this forum.

[Rockindeano]

I read a bunch of people from the European shows saying they had a great time and Dean saying they were lipsynched and btw, you can't tell by looking if a show is lipsynched.

First off, you read what a bunch of BT ers said about Europe shows. They don't count, for they are not even real reviews.

Secondly, who cares about a "great time?" We are talking about authenticity, not great times.

It's clear they are much better taped than live, but that is not an option is it? It was, when no one spoke up, but now that people have spoken up, it is no longer an option, and I suspect something will happen very soon one way or another.

[Andrew]

Thank you to most for actually reading and understanding my post and discussing it without the usual ensuing free for all.

I'd like the BT vs MR threads/comments to stop and I for one don't really care if you are from BT, elsewhere or what allegiance you hold.

Post with respect and validate your points and we should all be able to continue this debate in a more civil atmosphere.

[conversationpc]

Post with respect and validate your points and we should all be able to continue this debate in a more civil atmosphere.

I can agree with that.

[Crazie Scarab]

Soon, I'll be going to a show. Unfortunately, I'll have the memory of all this BS on my mind when they play. Perhaps it's a bad idea to read these boards before going to a show?

Thankfully, I'm a NS fan first & foremost!

[conversationpc]

Thankfully, I'm a NS fan first & foremost!

Perhaps Neal is actually not playing live but string-syncing.

[Andrew]

Thankfully, I'm a NS fan first & foremost!

Then you should love the show.

[Monker]

It's been the influx of staunch Journey/Augeri people who have stirred up the pot. I'm sorry you can't see it but if people had not paid Deano any attention, instead of arguing with him, it may have died on its own.

There was ALSO an influx of Perry supporters and Dean supporters. It was NOT just Augeri/Journey supporters 'stirring the pot'. ALL sides contributed to it...as ANDREW said.

However, that does NOT change what I said...It is up to ANDREW to control his own forum. Journey has nothing to do with that. ANDREW has allowed this forum to degenerate into a forum with no rules or boundaries. THAT is not Journey's fault.

I like Journey with Augeri, and this whole situation is sad and pathetic now, but when is enough enough for people to stop slagging mud?

For some on this forum, it is NEVER enough. I have witnessed it for about fifteen years of posting on online forums. Whether it be Perry fans getting too defensive over their man, or controversy of Chalfant replacing Perry, or Augeri replacing Perry - it has ALWAYS been there. THAT is what Andrew has to realize he is going to have to deal with if he is going to want a Journey forum on his site. It is NOT just 'one' side, or one issue.

If you really wanted this story to go away, you should have ignored Deano.

True...and I did for a VERY long time...This issue was just the latest. There were others before it. The truth is that this is the FIRST issue where Andrew has allowed Dean and others to do anything and everything they wanted without any regard for other people. In the past, he publicly warned and then kicked people off for abusing other posters, or constantly berating BT. That is no longer the case and it has caused the forum to become what all see today.

Instead, folks came here (including Craig Pitman, who I hope is in a better place) and said some vile stuff, including giving out personal information which blows my mind. Andrew - right or wrong in your eyes - let it continue and moderated when he should have.

And, the same happened on the other side with some very rude remarks about posters on BT. NEITHER is right and BOTH should have been taken care of. As far as I know, neither were.

Andrew has let this one play out on its own, and I applaud him for allowing the discussions to go on despite them getting ugly sometimes. I mean, BT openly directed people to come to MR and discuss it. So is Journey to blame for some of this, too? You betcha. BT is Journey's house and they redirected by telling people to come here, and ultimately, some of those folks stirred the pot just as much.

Well, INDIRECTLY, maybe you are right. But, I do not consider BT "Journey's house". It's a fucking msg forum...not a summer home. Even if it is 'their house', it's a place they never visit. You don't see them stopping in McJourney's in the morning to chat. You don't see them AT ALL in their 'house'....In fact, I made this exact point on BT in a thread started by Lydia Augeri when she called it "Journey's house". It's just not right...no matter who says it.

It's been very entertaining to watch the fur fly, but as screwed up as the Styx situation is, I can honestly say it has never been as bad as the state of Journey right now.

Like I have always said, Styx fans, in general (there are exceptions, like froy) are a LOT more mature when it comes to dealing with these type of issues. Journey fans act like a bunch of babies compared to most Styx fans.

[Marabelle]

well i think i've not said or done anything to embarrass myself. although i was a journey fan, a steve perry fan and really not interested in the styx band.
i'm pretty much just like this in person as well but a bit more serious and with a terrific laugh. i'm pretty much the same.

[nolippin]

When moderators/admins of forums like Backtalk, Augeriville and the Cooler or people claiming some close ties with the band come into this forum causing disruption and openly incite disruption of this forum on their sites, is the band responsible? I believe that they are.

It is well known that members of the band "lurk" here, particularly Neal. It is also known that members of the band's families both lurk and sometimes post here and at Backtalk. There is no question that the band was aware of what was happening in this forum three weeks ago.

They saw the vitriol and hatred coming from both sides...not just one. They saw people speaking for them when they should have been speaking for themselves. They saw someone in ill health egged on by others to defend them when they should have been defending themselves...and they saw the consequences.

Now the hypocrites are gathering to spew more hate and blame others for a man's death. Yes, the band is aware of that, too. When does it stop? When does the band stop standing by and watching this?

Every time a boney finger of blame points in the direction of the people on this board there will be three fingers pointing back. Are they enjoying the show????

So - there remains one entity that has been responsible for all this and this one entitty has not stood up to the plate to deal with it.

JOURNEY

Journey is only responsible for themselves. Yes, I think they need to deal with the situation for the sake of the fans but they are not responsible for all the excrement-flinging monkeys in this forum. From what I've seen, they probably would've found something else to raise a stink about. The people who've gone overboard have only themselves to blame. If you're losing sleep over this kind of crap and you're not either a member of the band, friend or family member of the band, then you need to seek help immediately.

Dude, there are some really passionate fans on this board ( and elsewhere ) and trust me, as much as you dont think so, no one is losing sleep over this..

Journey needs to address this for the simple reason : the fans put money in their pocket. Why is that so hard to understand...? What, you think Frontiers Records are paying the band members..??

Get this : There will be no band if there are no fans.

And by the way, all this shit slinging hoopla started to gain momentum AFTER the influx of 'newbies' recently....it was still under control before that happened...


Ray

[LAWoman]

I read a bunch of people from the European shows saying they had a great time and Dean saying they were lipsynched and btw, you can't tell by looking if a show is lipsynched.

First off, you read what a bunch of BT ers said about Europe shows. They don't count, for they are not even real reviews.

Secondly, who cares about a "great time?" We are talking about authenticity, not great times.

It's clear they are much better taped than live, but that is not an option is it? It was, when no one spoke up, but now that people have spoken up, it is no longer an option, and I suspect something will happen very soon one way or another.

No, actually I was refering to things that were said on the phorum and here. People were saying directly to you that they were at the shows, Manchester, for example very near the stage and there was no lipsynching. Your response was you can't tell by looking.

But, you missed my point entirely. I was responding to the issue of recourse in relation to someone else's post. I don't see people who are the ones paying for the shows and going to the shows as being the ones creating an issue. One can't really complain they were ripped off by some alleged use of tapes if they didn't even go to a show. If you went to a show and you suspect some lipsynching went on and it actually matters to you, ask for your money back. I haven't heard anyone who actually went to one of your target shows complaining.

[r@y]

It is also known that members of the band's families both lurk and sometimes post here and at Backtalk.

Wow, they really do...?? Never knew that...


Ray

[StyxCollector]

Andrew has let this one play out on its own, and I applaud him for allowing the discussions to go on despite them getting ugly sometimes. I mean, BT openly directed people to come to MR and discuss it. So is Journey to blame for some of this, too? You betcha. BT is Journey's house and they redirected by telling people to come here, and ultimately, some of those folks stirred the pot just as much.

Well, INDIRECTLY, maybe you are right. But, I do not consider BT "Journey's house". It's a fucking msg forum...not a summer home. Even if it is 'their house', it's a place they never visit. You don't see them stopping in McJourney's in the morning to chat. You don't see them AT ALL in their 'house'....In fact, I made this exact point on BT in a thread started by Lydia Augeri when she called it "Journey's house". It's just not right...no matter who says it.

BT is Journey's official forum and is subject to their, or more specifically, their management's control. I don't think it was just a lightbulb moment to direct people to MR. I think maybe that someone had the idea that if you let it play itself out here, it will just come here and die. Just my speculation only - no proof on that. Unfortunately, it didn't go away. So directly or indirectly, someone with a direct association with Journey made the call, and it backfired: it only helped to stir the pot against them and fuel the fire for some.

I would agree that they don't stop in and chat over there, but it doesn't change the fact it's their official forum. So while I agree "their house" may be the wrong term since it's basically a lights on but no one home situation, they still control the strings of the puppet.

Styx also has had the same essential say on their boards, too. I know when the DDY and Styx thing was happening, their site's msg board was heavily moderated.

[Moon Beam]

Monker you keep slinging that mud in this forum.
If the STYX forum is so mature and you like it so much
go stay there.
Your really coming off as a know it all for the last few days.
I kept my word it's now tomorrow and man I have been
waiting to post to you.
I don't know who's worse with the snotty attitude you or Ace.
All the two of you have done for the last few days is sling mud pies.
Yet you complain that this forum and these threads are all
negative.
If you have so much cyber posting experience you'd think you
would set a good example.

[Monker]

When moderators/admins of forums like Backtalk, Augeriville and the Cooler or people claiming some close ties with the band come into this forum causing disruption and openly incite disruption of this forum on their sites, is the band responsible? I believe that they are.

And, look at the date YOU joined. The same goes for some of your cohorts. You all showed up at the exact same time...and stirred the pot just as much as the people you are pointing to. A coincidence? Sure it is.

Every time a boney finger of blame points in the direction of the people on this board there will be three fingers pointing back. Are they enjoying the show????

Are you enjoying the forum, doing nothing but pointing your boney finger?

[LAWoman]

The "boney finger" thing strikes me as very funny for some reason. How do you two know it is not the pudgey finger of blame?

[whocares]

Some of those who were posting reviews at Manchester also said that it's been 26 years since they came here, we don't give a rats ass IF they were lipping.

Monker as I said before wah wah wah about your 15 years. You ares tirring the pot as much as anyone here. You want things better but are unwilling to do something about it.

[Memorex]

I'm really disappointed in some folks.

I came to this forum because I was directed by BT. Seemed it was the only place to discuss it. Monker, you talk about poeople signing up here when this started, but it's only because it could not be discussed on their site. Sorry Andrew, not comparing sites - just explaining why I came here.

[Andrew]

I came to this forum because I was directed by BT. Seemed it was the only place to discuss it.

Exactly. I saw the same directive. But at the same time, those directed here wanted to lynch me for allowing the discussion.

[nolippin]

Your response is typical of your "cohorts". I've read this forum for a couple of years, but didn't post until some pissy little owner of Augeriville demanded that her "cohorts" "step up to the plate". I suppose that was her way of making a call to arms of the other Augerivillagers...Steve Augeri must be so proud.

I felt like responding and did so. You lurk until you find something to pounce on, so where are you any different from anyone else who posted recently? You are nothing more than the pots calling the kettles black.

You and your cohorts try to invalidate the tape scam by painting everyone who believes that things are not as they should be with the same brush. Everyone is supposed to be lined up behind Dean. I'm sorry, but that isn't how I made my decisions. I don't know Dean, frankly from what I've read of him, I don't want to know him. I looked at his clips. I also read the account of a sound engineer that witnessed tapes being used in Sweden. I also read the account of a couple of different music professionals who did their own tests on their own "undoctored" bootleg copies. I've read the reviews of both fans and journalists who've heard Augeri attempt to sing live. I believe that something is very wrong and needs to be addressed by the band.

I'm as entitled to my opinion and as entitled to state it as you or anyone else here regardless of my longevity or the timing of my arrival to the arrival of your or anyone else's "cohorts".

When moderators/admins of forums like Backtalk, Augeriville and the Cooler or people claiming some close ties with the band come into this forum causing disruption and openly incite disruption of this forum on their sites, is the band responsible? I believe that they are.

And, look at the date YOU joined. The same goes for some of your cohorts. You all showed up at the exact same time...and stirred the pot just as much as the people you are pointing to. A coincidence? Sure it is.

Every time a boney finger of blame points in the direction of the people on this board there will be three fingers pointing back. Are they enjoying the show????

Are you enjoying the forum, doing nothing but pointing your boney finger?