Open letter to Steve Augeri

[fred_journeyman]

Why should the band apologize? Everyone who went to one of the lipped shows reports about what a wonderful time they had. They got what they paid for: a nite of entertainment.

I believe I explained that in my initial post. They had to ALL have known about the cover up. Because they KNEW about it, they're culpable, in my opinion. If you disagree with that assessment, I'm fine with that, but that's my reason.

I believe that what may have simply started out as an Augeri "idea," (if that was the case), became something the entire band embraced for whatever reason.

If I see someone being attacked on the street and I'm in a position to help, but do nothing, in my mind, I'm just as guilty as the person who did the attacking. Whether the law sees it that way or not, my conscience tells me otherwise.

[ArnelRox]

As someone who spent a load of cash on air tickets, hotels and concert tickets and thought she'd had a wonderful time at her first-ever Journey concerts, I do hope you're being sarcastic here, JR. I was gutted for weeks when I discovered I'd been conned and remarks like this really put my back up.

I'm very sorry u had to go thru that & I certainly didn't mean to offend u.

I was talking to the people who come on here daily & talk about the fantastic time they had at shows & tell us they were 100% live. I'm sure those people would be gutted if the band admitted it & apologized. So, what's the point?

[Matthew]

He didn't and either the guys, or management or both helped with the lie. They're all culpable and they ALL should apologize to the fans, not just Augeri (with the exception of JSS).

So true...

Why should the band apologize? Everyone who went to one of the lipped shows reports about what a wonderful time they had. They got what they paid for: a nite of entertainment.

Not me. I had a shit night out.

[Matthew]

As someone who spent a load of cash on air tickets, hotels and concert tickets....I was gutted for weeks when I discovered I'd been conned

I'm with you all the way, Joybringer....

[ArnelRox]

Not me. I had a shit night out.

Yes but was it because u knew he was lipping & u felt conned? Or because his voice wasn't as great as Perry's singing those songs?

[Matthew]

As someone who spent a load of cash on air tickets, hotels and concert tickets and thought she'd had a wonderful time at her first-ever Journey concerts, I do hope you're being sarcastic here, JR. I was gutted for weeks when I discovered I'd been conned and remarks like this really put my back up.

I'm very sorry u had to go thru that & I certainly didn't mean to offend u.

I was talking to the people who come on here daily & talk about the fantastic time they had at shows & tell us they were 100% live. I'm sure those people would be gutted if the band admitted it & apologized. So, what's the point?

JRox - I think Fred's original point was that Augeri and Journey either take joint responsibility and make a joint apology - or that neither side does. Augeri shouldn't have to take sole responsibility for a group decision.

[Matthew]

Not me. I had a shit night out.

Yes but was it because u knew he was lipping & u felt conned? Or because his voice wasn't as great as Perry's singing those songs?

I knew about the lip-sync allegtions before I went - but I couldn't tell on the night whether he was or wasn't. If anything his voice sounded too weak to be pre-recorded.

Sure, I would have loathed his presence in the band in any case - but that night he was a feeble frontman who barely moved or communicated to the crowd or broke sweat. And the rest of the band seemed to be going through the motions rather gloomily - especially Cain. Even the stage set suggested that this was a band who couldn't really be bothered and were cutting costs. Journey just looked tired...

Schon was great though...and for this reason alone I guess it isn't entirely accurate to say I had a "shit" night because it was worth it to see him play live.

[ArnelRox]

JRox - I think Fred's original point was that Augeri and Journey either take joint responsibility and make a joint apology - or that neither side does. Augeri shouldn't have to take sole responsibility for a group decision.

I'll let Fred explain what he meant exactly (don't wanna put words in his mouth as I think he bites ), but I got the impression from his 1st & 2nd post (& other posts he made in other threads) that he thinks the entire band should apologize.

My point was that the band can't win by apologizing. There are still a large number of people who believe the shows were live & who have even said they will go to their death believing that. By saying they were not live & apologizing for it, the band will do nothing other than upset those people further. They are already upset enough w/the lead singer switch. If they knew SA lipped, they might demand a refund &/or spread the story further. It's best for the band to carry on doing what they've been doing: say nothing about Tapegate & hope it stays w/in a few fans on internet message boards.

[Matthew]

It's best for the band to carry on doing what they've been doing: say nothing about Tapegate & hope it stays w/in a few fans on internet message boards.

Yes - I think you're right about this - and I'm sure that's exactly what they - and Augeri - will do.

[ArnelRox]

but that night he was a feeble frontman who barely moved or communicated to the crowd or broke sweat.

It's interesting how ur take on it varies so much from some other people who post here & thought he was on the top of his game during all those UK shows & the greatest frontman they ever saw. I'm not putting u down for ur opinion, of course. It just goes to show that 2 people can be in the same place at the same time & have completely different experiences.

[Matthew]

but that night he was a feeble frontman who barely moved or communicated to the crowd or broke sweat.

It's interesting how ur take on it varies so much from some other people who post here & thought he was on the top of his game during all those UK shows & the greatest frontman they ever saw. I'm not putting u down for ur opinion, of course. It just goes to show that 2 people can be in the same place at the same time & have completely different experiences.

Well, I can't imagine why anyone would think Augeri was on top of his game. I really can't. If anyone on this site put up a video of Augeri at the Edinburgh show and we all watched it in the cold light of day I bet NO-ONE would say he was the greatest frontman they ever saw that night.

To be honest...Journey could have fucked up an entire concert and the Brits would have praised them to the skies. After waiting 26 years for a Journey tour of the UK the fans were DESPERATE to see them and gave them a welcome which was entirely uncritical and unconditional...

Take Faithfully at Manchester....everyone there thought that Journey did an AMAZING performance of that song...but listening to the bootleg the only amazing performace was from the crowd who were singing along. Augeri could barely sing a note - and it was actually an embarassment to the Journey name.

Does it really matter given that the Manchester crowd had a great time anyway? Probably not...I guess...but Journey have suffered badly by catering to the lowest common denominator...by the belief that they can get away with any old rubbish...and play safe with the set-lists and go through the motions.... because of the strong nostalgic feelings of the crowd...and the trouble is...this same contempt and shoddiness creeps into the recorded work too.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Honestly, as much as SA was a good singer, he was never really part of the band. In concerts, he didn't seem to gell well with the guys. Perry seemed to, but I think JSS has hit the nail on the head. There seems to be a mutual respect between JSS and the other guys. I feel bad for Augeri. I love Perry, but know that that is the past. Whatever Journey decides to do with SA and JSS is their business, but as a fan of the group as a whole, I'd ask the guys to treat both SA and JSS with a little more dignity and respect this time around if there should be a "switch".

I tend to agree. Not one person on this forum (well, maybe one), has had the type of success that fronting for a band like Journey can bring. SA was the "also ran" by most standards (hated by many from day one), and I'm sure if anyone never felt like he was truly part of the band, it was Augeri.

He is probably dealing with an extreme amount of embarrassment and wishes to just hide. The way some on this forum talk leaves the obvious impression that they suffer from a very large superiority complex, as if they themselves would never stoop to the supposed level that Augeri stooped to. I personally, have never walked in the man's shoes and cannot even begin to imagine what the daily pressure was like. Of course he could have said "You know what? My voice is giving out. Can you get someone to take over for me until it heals?" or "I need to bow out gracefully and transition things over to a new guy." He didn't and either the guys, or management or both helped with the lie. They're all culpable and they ALL should apologize to the fans, not just Augeri (with the exception of JSS).

But, Journey needs a scapegoat now so that they can continue touring and making money. It's easier to point all fingers at Augeri (and he <u>was</u> wrong), rather than assume or accept at least some of the blame.

<b>Steve: thanks for bringing Journey back from the dead and I wish you well in all your future endeavors. Not all of us are ready to run you out of town on a rail. You're human, unlike some here who apparently think they're not only above the law, but above the spectrum of frailty that exists in each of us. What you did was wrong (and I'm sure you know that)...</b>

DOH! You had me up until there.

I've asked this over and over again and NOBODY has a response: who says it was wrong?

Is there some written code/law regarding this issue? IMO it's only wrong IF the intent was to misrepresent themselves to the fans in order to rip them off. I can't see this as the intent. SA isn't a talentless Milli Vanilli "pretty boy" who was thrust onto the stage in red leather pants in order to fool everybody!

Those who have been so quick to tell me to get a life regarding what I believe in are the SAME people who have responded to Tapegate as if MURDER on the scale of genocide has been committed!!!

Who is it that really neds to get a life?

I recall other Tapegate scandals. Remember ELO? Here's a band that was put through the wringer, too. All they did was try to give their GIANT audiences the BEST possible show. The studio tricks that Jeff Lynne did with his voice could NOT be properly duplicated live so they used "help" on some of the more complicated tracks. BIG DEAL.

I just don't get the emotional outbursts to this issue. I will argue this again: studio technology is used like CRAZY on vocals and every other instrument. This is "OK" to EVERYONE and it's EXPECTED and accepted. Live shows are also enhanced including vocals BUT dare NOT lip synch - even though Britney Spears among others does it OUTWARDLY.

Where is the voice of reason on this?

Technology can be used for this but not for that. Certain people can lip synch but others who are sick can't.

Who made up these "rules" ...?

What a bunch of CRAP! The WHOLE of it.

[tammy]

I actually feel for the fan who wrote that & the rest of the SA fans. It doesn't seem right that he hasn't even acknowledged their good wishes for his health, at least. They must be feeling "jilted" in a way. Doesn't SA have other message boards that he could respond to if not BT, I wonder?

[Matthew]

I just don't get the emotional outbursts to this issue.

It's true, Fyre - in the great scheme of things this issue couldn't be less important...

Live shows are also enhanced including vocals BUT dare NOT lip synch - even though Britney Spears among others does it OUTWARDLY.

Yes - but Britney puts on a spectacular stage show. So do ELO. Journey are five old blokes standing in front of a few flashing lights. Nobody takes Britney seriously as a singer. Journey have an outstanding vocal tradition. Come on...the differences are obvious....

Who made up these "rules" ...?

I guess these unwritten rules have developed in rock music but not in pop music. The trouble is...Journey have both audiences...the serious rock music fans who go to see live musicians...and the people who go along to just have a laugh.

If you are paying money to watch live musicians...and that is your priority...then lip-syncing is a total rip-off. If you just want fun...who cares?

What a bunch of CRAP! The WHOLE of it.

Is this an emotional outburst, Fyre?

[kbo]

DOH! You had me up until there.

I've asked this over and over again and NOBODY has a response: who says it was wrong?

Is there some written code/law regarding this issue? IMO it's only wrong IF the intent was to misrepresent themselves to the fans in order to rip them off. I can't see this as the intent. SA isn't a talentless Milli Vanilli "pretty boy" who was thrust onto the stage in red leather pants in order to fool everybody!

Those who have been so quick to tell me to get a life regarding what I believe in are the SAME people who have responded to Tapegate as if MURDER on the scale of genocide has been committed!!!

Who is it that really neds to get a life? Twisted Evil

I recall other Tapegate scandals. Remember ELO? Here's a band that was put through the wringer, too. All they did was try to give their GIANT audiences the BEST possible show. The studio tricks that Jeff Lynne did with his voice could NOT be properly duplicated live so they used "help" on some of the more complicated tracks. BIG DEAL.

I just don't get the emotional outbursts to this issue. I will argue this again: studio technology is used like CRAZY on vocals and every other instrument. This is "OK" to EVERYONE and it's EXPECTED and accepted. Live shows are also enhanced including vocals BUT dare NOT lip synch - even though Britney Spears among others does it OUTWARDLY.

Where is the voice of reason on this?

Technology can be used for this but not for that. Certain people can lip synch but others who are sick can't.

Who made up these "rules" ...?

What a bunch of CRAP! The WHOLE of it.

I agree COMPLETELY![/quote]

[fred_journeyman]

JRox - I think Fred's original point was that Augeri and Journey either take joint responsibility and make a joint apology - or that neither side does. Augeri shouldn't have to take sole responsibility for a group decision.

Yeah, that's a good summation. Thanks Matthew.

[bionic]

Honestly, as much as SA was a good singer, he was never really part of the band. In concerts, he didn't seem to gell well with the guys. Perry seemed to, but I think JSS has hit the nail on the head. There seems to be a mutual respect between JSS and the other guys. I feel bad for Augeri. I love Perry, but know that that is the past. Whatever Journey decides to do with SA and JSS is their business, but as a fan of the group as a whole, I'd ask the guys to treat both SA and JSS with a little more dignity and respect this time around if there should be a "switch".

I tend to agree. Not one person on this forum (well, maybe one), has had the type of success that fronting for a band like Journey can bring. SA was the "also ran" by most standards (hated by many from day one), and I'm sure if anyone never felt like he was truly part of the band, it was Augeri.

He is probably dealing with an extreme amount of embarrassment and wishes to just hide. The way some on this forum talk leaves the obvious impression that they suffer from a very large superiority complex, as if they themselves would never stoop to the supposed level that Augeri stooped to. I personally, have never walked in the man's shoes and cannot even begin to imagine what the daily pressure was like. Of course he could have said "You know what? My voice is giving out. Can you get someone to take over for me until it heals?" or "I need to bow out gracefully and transition things over to a new guy." He didn't and either the guys, or management or both helped with the lie. They're all culpable and they ALL should apologize to the fans, not just Augeri (with the exception of JSS).

But, Journey needs a scapegoat now so that they can continue touring and making money. It's easier to point all fingers at Augeri (and he <u>was</u> wrong), rather than assume or accept at least some of the blame.

<b>Steve: thanks for bringing Journey back from the dead and I wish you well in all your future endeavors. Not all of us are ready to run you out of town on a rail. You're human, unlike some here who apparently think they're not only above the law, but above the spectrum of frailty that exists in each of us. What you did was wrong (and I'm sure you know that)...</b>

DOH! You had me up until there.

I've asked this over and over again and NOBODY has a response: who says it was wrong?

Is there some written code/law regarding this issue? IMO it's only wrong IF the intent was to misrepresent themselves to the fans in order to rip them off. I can't see this as the intent. SA isn't a talentless Milli Vanilli "pretty boy" who was thrust onto the stage in red leather pants in order to fool everybody!

Those who have been so quick to tell me to get a life regarding what I believe in are the SAME people who have responded to Tapegate as if MURDER on the scale of genocide has been committed!!!

Who is it that really neds to get a life?

I recall other Tapegate scandals. Remember ELO? Here's a band that was put through the wringer, too. All they did was try to give their GIANT audiences the BEST possible show. The studio tricks that Jeff Lynne did with his voice could NOT be properly duplicated live so they used "help" on some of the more complicated tracks. BIG DEAL.

I just don't get the emotional outbursts to this issue. I will argue this again: studio technology is used like CRAZY on vocals and every other instrument. This is "OK" to EVERYONE and it's EXPECTED and accepted. Live shows are also enhanced including vocals BUT dare NOT lip synch - even though Britney Spears among others does it OUTWARDLY.

Where is the voice of reason on this?




Technology can be used for this but not for that. Certain people can lip synch but others who are sick can't.

Who made up these "rules" ...?

What a bunch of CRAP! The WHOLE of it.

People who pay money for any kind of show must be allowed to decide what they are paying there money for!! If i had known Augeri was miming i would not have wasted my money.By the band witholding that information from me i was not able to make a decision and therefore wastes my money.
In regard to ELO the basiccally played over studio tracks of 'Standin in the Rain' 'Sweet Talking Woman' etc thats why there was uproar.They should have got another guitarist backing singer and full orchestra. In the case of Journey they should have got a new singer. Its like a football player being injured and another player putting on his outfti and hoping no one notices it not him, if they win who cares/...a lot of people do ,the same as finding out you was so impressed with a singer only to find out its fake ....were is the talent in that?

[fred_journeyman]

...I got the impression from his 1st & 2nd post (& other posts he made in other threads) that he thinks the entire band should apologize.

That would be incorrect. Matthew's is much closer to my original point. What I believe I stated AND IMPLIED was that either the ENTIRE band apologizes or NO ONE apologies. I thought that was pretty clear. Matthew got it.

My point was that the band can't win by apologizing. There are still a large number of people who believe the shows were live & who have even said they will go to their death believing that. By saying they were not live & apologizing for it, the band will do nothing other than upset those people further. They are already upset enough w/the lead singer switch. If they knew SA lipped, they might demand a refund &/or spread the story further. It's best for the band to carry on doing what they've been doing: say nothing about Tapegate & hope it stays w/in a few fans on internet message boards.

And yet there are people on this forum who JUST want Augeri to apologize. Personally, I do not think anyone should apologize at all. However, if anyone DOES apologize, then it should be ALL of them, not just Augeri. I don't know how to make it any clearer than that, but hopefully this has done the trick.

PS - As far as "biting" anyone, the only time I do that is when people choose to use sarcasm to attack my opinion and/or post(s). If people are polite to me, then I am generally polite in turn. If they want to bite me, I'll back back, because that's the language they apparently use and understand best.

PPS - My use of capitals should not be taken to indicate that I'm yelling, but merely emphasizing.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

It's true, Fyre - in the great scheme of things this issue couldn't be less important...

Tell that to the people who have done nothing short of screaming from the highest mountain that it is!

Yes - but Britney puts on a spectacular stage show. So do ELO. Journey are five old blokes standing in front of a few flashing lights. Nobody takes Britney seriously as a singer. Journey have an outstanding vocal tradition. Come on...the differences are obvious....

Five old blokes that are subject to constipation, high blood pressure and chronic voice problems!

The differences are obvious but I don't know that it's compelling enough for me to crucify the five old, constipated men and be sexually aroused by Britney.

I guess these unwritten rules have developed in rock music but not in pop music. The trouble is...Journey have both audiences...the serious rock music fans who go to see live musicians...and the people who go along to just have a laugh.

That's right - unwritten. So why should people who wouldn't normally give a load be persuaded into dumping all over the five old men just because a HANDFUL of "passionate" fans jump up and down about it?

Is this an emotional outburst, Fyre?

You know very well it's not.

[L~L~L]

Maybe SA will do a Q & A for his fans

[Mark H]

Why should the band apologize? Everyone who went to one of the lipped shows reports about what a wonderful time they had. They got what they paid for: a nite of entertainment.

JR - I went to at least 2 of the shows that were cited as taped, (Manchester and Edinburgh) right up front and saw/heard nothing wrong.... I think the accusations are a crock of shit regarding those shows but wont stand up and say it couldn't have happened at other shows....don't know...wasn't there. If it was tape at Man & Edn then SA has got greater talents than just singing and you're right I did get a good nites entertainment and don't feel ripped off in the slightest.

Mathew - you're quite right in that after 25 years we would have probably been impressed by anything..what you don't get is that the Manchester concert was so great BECAUSE the crowd drowned out the band -that's the way we do it over here...Neal was stunned. But its nothing new... I saw it first time at a Rush show in 1980 when the crowd drowned out Closer to the heart..instruments and all.

I've been to 2 US Journey shows and can say that British crowds are vocal to the extent that you cannot imagine in the US... ask some of the US contingent that came over for the UK shows. The reception that Neal and JSS received at the European Soul Sirkus shows in one of the things that convinced Neal to get Journey over here after soooo long.

We all have our own opinion, based on the information we have available, some may have insider knowledge that shapes their opinion, me.. i was there at the 'scene of the crime' so to speak and that shapes my opinion although I accept that others are convinced that tapes have been in use. Its clear that all here are passionate about Journey regardless of their opinions which is to be applauded. In the end, you know what they say about opinions and arseholes...everyone has one.

Bottom line..this is show BUSINESS and the show must, and will, go on. I wish Steve the best for the future, hope he gets suitable recompense and can't wait for the next chapter to unfold.


Now..where did I put me asbestos keks

[A Fire Inside]

I was talking to the people who come on here daily & talk about the fantastic time they had at shows & tell us they were 100% live. I'm sure those people would be gutted if the band admitted it & apologized. So, what's the point?

Maybe they deserve to be faced with a huge group of their fans who are 'gutted' over what they did. Maybe they would legitimately work to get those fans back when they realize their big investors are dropping out.

Oh, well, karma will find them some way.

[Marc S]

I don't think its that black and white - Augeri sounded like he was struggling a little at Manchester which suggests to me he was doing a great deal of it live - why would they fly in a ropey lead vocal? However at Monsters Milton Keynes he 'sounded' awesome, especially the likes of Seperate Ways which suggests he may have had some 'added' help. I've sang backing vocals and played bass in a band for 25 years, we learned as kids in the early to mid 80s how to sing multi layered harmonies bang in key, very high registers and not falsetto, copying Toto, Journey and the incredible singers in Boston, all against the grain in the UK. All the metal/rock bands in the UK in the 80s generally had crap BVs - thats why the Leps have used tapes for years - the rest of the band just can't sing. I really don't think what we heard at Manchester or Milton Keynes was either all flown in (tapes) or all genuine, it was a mix. And no, I don't feel cheated really cos they played great and I wanted to see Schon and co. NO MATTER WHAT, slightly sad though that may sound?

Deano has had his fame in uncovering this to some degree, but it shouldn't be the life or death witch hunt that they are trying to turn it into. If I only thank Augeri for singing on Arrival, that'll do for me.

And, without any purile alliegance, I can't wait to see them at Nottingham in March with JSS; going by the Boots I've heard he'll be brilliant! Roll on 2007!

[The_Noble_Cause]

I don't think its that black and white - Augeri sounded like he was struggling a little at Manchester which suggests to me he was doing a great deal of of it live - why would they fly in a ropey lead vocal?

Because it's all they got.

[Marc S]

That makes no sense - I saw the Milton Keynes show and all the lead vocals were spot on, so THEY would have been on tape. It would make no sense to use anything BUT those at Manchester the following gig...?

[The_Noble_Cause]

That makes no sense - I saw the Milton Keynes show and all the lead vocals were spot on, so THEY would have been on tape. It would make no sense to use anything BUT those at Manchester the following gig...?

All the UK shows used the Vegas dvd for their dirty dozen.
"Out of Harms Way" was directly off of Generations, but featured Steve singing some parts and Deen obliging with high notes.
Loving Touching Squeezing was 100% live every night.
Dead or Alive, Keep on Running, Edge of the Blade were all tape and featured Augeri hitting notes that he couldn't have hit even in his youth.
"Faith in the Heartland" used the same slightly-modified tape that was used in the VH1-classics "Live" video for "Faith in the Heartland".

[Marc S]

If thats the case, I have never seen a better mime artist, period. You write as if you must know this as bonefide fact, and I'm not going to argue with that. I've seen the transcript from the dutch sound engineer months ago at the Arrow Festival (indeed, I was there and it did sound faultless) consequently smoke and fire came to my thoughts at the time.

There's just something very one-sided about the whole thing, just a gut reaction based on what I heard and saw 3 times in pretty quick succession that just doesnt sit right and the silence from Augeri has to be a legal one, he seemed too much of a genuinely nice bloke not to give a sh*t.

I don't really give a flying f*ck who sings as long as they do a good job so I'm no particular Augeri lover and Perry is for dreamers.

[The_Noble_Cause]

If thats the case, I have never seen a better mime artist, period. You write as if you must know this as bonefide fact.

Sadly, I do.
I don't have a track record of making things up on the forum.
It's not my style. I have done "prediction" and "conspiracy theory" threads specifically so I could guess and blow smoke.
This is not the case here.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

That makes no sense - I saw the Milton Keynes show and all the lead vocals were spot on, so THEY would have been on tape. It would make no sense to use anything BUT those at Manchester the following gig...?

All the UK shows used the Vegas dvd for their dirty dozen.
"Out of Harms Way" was directly off of Generations, but featured Steve singing some parts and Deen obliging with high notes.
Loving Touching Squeezing was 100% live every night.
Dead or Alive, Keep on Running, Edge of the Blade were all tape and featured Augeri hitting notes that he couldn't have hit even in his youth.
"Faith in the Heartland" used the same slightly-modified tape that was used in the VH1-classics "Live" video for "Faith in the Heartland".

What you've posted contradicts what so many have claimed: that SA was 100% lip synching. Others make claims of tape "help" and others even still claim other stuff like he's been lip synching since day one!

Given the inconsistencies in claims and factor in the people who've seen him live and believe he was just that - I can't make an INTELLIGENT assessment.

The "official" claim seems to come from those who have the biggest, fattest, loudest, and most obnoxious MOUTHS.

For whatever that's worth!

[Andrew]

Good discussion folks...thanks for all doing so while remaining respectful of other opinions...

Aside from:

The "official" claim seems to come from those who have the biggest, fattest, loudest, and most obnoxious MOUTHS.

For whatever that's worth!

Be careful please Fyre.