Shove the Apology!

[conversationpc]

That same faith would also teach you that asking forgiveness is empty if there is not repentness in his heart. Only he knows if that is/was there. It would also teach you that it is easy to fogive, but not so easy to FORGET. There are a LOT of things that Dean supposedly applogized for...and those things are going to be VERY hard to let go of and put in the past.

Why do you have to consistently bring up things that everyone already knows?

[ArnelRox]

Why do you have to consistently bring up things that everyone already knows?

Monker & Fred just like to see their names in print, over & over & over & over again.

[Matthew]

Here's my BIG question: if SA was hindering the band and its future then WHY did they continue the so-called charade? Can you explain EXACTLY HOW the band and its future were being hindered? You know, music is a BUSINESS and it seems to me that they've been VERY successful despite all of the nay-sayers with the gloom and doom prophecies of them never surviving without SP. They've been touring and making money so how can you say they've been hindered?

VERY successful? They haven't had an album that got into the charts or got airplay on the radio. They've done ok touring.

How were the band being hindered? Um have u seen them on TV? Have u heard them on radio? Any LIVE performances (other than concerts & they weren't completely live anyway) in the last 2 yrs? That's being hindered. Wait till u see what they do next. Maybe then u will eat ur words.

I can't believe u can be so stupid sometimes Fyre.

JRox - I was just writing almost exactly the same post when I asked myself....if Fyre has been able to screen out the blatantly obvious decline in Journey's career for eight years then what chance have I got of breaking through his denial? The answer of course is 'none'...so I ditched the post.

But I'm glad someone picked him up on that extraordinary statement.

[ArnelRox]

JRox - I was just writing almost exactly the same post when I asked myself....

U know what they say Matthew "great minds think alike"!

& "fools seldom differ" but we won't go there.

[MartyMoffatt]

JRox - I was just writing almost exactly the same post when I asked myself....

U know what they say Matthew "great minds think alike"!

& "fools seldom differ" but we won't go there.

Hmmnn... interesting slant that small print puts on your comment.

Anyway, you refer to eight years of decline. Does that mean you put all the years of hiatus that preceded it as a successful period from which that decline took place?

I'd say that in the context of well known classic rock bands successful in the 70's and 80's, very few of whom have enjoyed anything like the same success in the 90's and 00's (and I can probably name at least 20 such bands off the top of my head) Journey HAVE been relatively successful. They have toured to full audiences, they have enjoyed a period of stability and they have made money. That's more than can be said for a great many similar bands from the same era. I'ts pointless comparing current success with the success of their heyday - different times, different cultures, different attitudes, different tastes.

Marty

[ohsherrie]

At the end of the day, the whole issue shouldn't be about apologies, on either side. Nor should it be about whether they were accepted or conditions applied. Forget all that. This should be about whether there is a genuine will to get on, without getting sucked into a blame culture. People here and there don't have to be the best of friends
but don't have to actively antagonize each other.

Marty

Exactly, that's all it will take. See some of us can agree on some things. We don't all have to agree on everything. We'll never all agree on things regarding the band, but we can quit turning the disagreement into personal attacks against the people on the boards.

[Matthew]

Does that mean you put all the years of hiatus that preceded it as a successful period from which that decline took place?

I'm using the TBF album as the barometer, Marty. No, we'll never know how well the TBF tour would have gone - but the band did have a healthy recording career in 1996, especially given that the times were so different from Journey's heyday.

Journey HAVE been relatively successful. They have toured to full audiences, they have enjoyed a period of stability and they have made money. That's more than can be said for a great many similar bands from the same era.

That's true - but the records have flopped...the profile in the mainstream media (even in parts of the media which are aimed at an older demographic) has virtually disappeared(unlike Foreigner without Gramm...who recently played on the Today show). And eight years on the Perry era is still the band's meal-ticket....and this year Journey became a support act for the first time since the 1970s.

The fact is Journey are different from most of their contemparies because Journey are one of the very few '80s' bands who still have a thriving back catalogue. Bands such as Kansas haven't been nearly as sucessful in this regard. Yes - maybe Journey's recent tours have stimilated sales but the back catalogue was doing extremely well during the bands hiatus as well. Whereas the sales of the 'frontlist' albums have collapsed.

But as you say....Journey are still in business and continue to play to reasonably large audiences so yes...they are "relatively" successful. I just didn't agree with Fyre's comment that they have been "VERY" successful. But it all depends on the criteria, I guess.

[frostbite]

Hmmnn... interesting slant that small print puts on your comment.

Anyway, you refer to eight years of decline. Does that mean you put all the years of hiatus that preceded it as a successful period from which that decline took place?

I'd say that in the context of well known classic rock bands successful in the 70's and 80's, very few of whom have enjoyed anything like the same success in the 90's and 00's (and I can probably name at least 20 such bands off the top of my head) Journey HAVE been relatively successful. They have toured to full audiences, they have enjoyed a period of stability and they have made money. That's more than can be said for a great many similar bands from the same era. I'ts pointless comparing current success with the success of their heyday - different times, different cultures, different attitudes, different tastes.

Marty

I think there are just many people (in this forum anyway) who don't think the last 8 years has done Journey's legacy any particular favours.

[Matthew]

Hmmnn... interesting slant that small print puts on your comment.

Anyway, you refer to eight years of decline. Does that mean you put all the years of hiatus that preceded it as a successful period from which that decline took place?

I'd say that in the context of well known classic rock bands successful in the 70's and 80's, very few of whom have enjoyed anything like the same success in the 90's and 00's (and I can probably name at least 20 such bands off the top of my head) Journey HAVE been relatively successful. They have toured to full audiences, they have enjoyed a period of stability and they have made money. That's more than can be said for a great many similar bands from the same era. I'ts pointless comparing current success with the success of their heyday - different times, different cultures, different attitudes, different tastes.

Marty

I think there are just many people (in this forum anyway) who don't think the last 8 years has done Journey's legacy any particular favours.

No - and even leaving aside the issue of Tapegate - Journey's ability to live up to the standards of that legacy has been limited by having a frontman who didn't appeal to the majority of Journey's CD-buying audience...nor to major record labels like Sony...nor the media...and certainly not to a young generation either. That's why Journey got stuck in a rut playing the same old songs to an ageing and declining audience.

Maybe it's too late now for JSS to save the day...but he has at least the potential to generate media attention and possibly even a younger crowd...and who knows? Maybe even a record that sells as many copies as - say - the Bob Segar album which recently went Top Ten. This might all be far-fetched but at least the band has SOME hope of making serious and positive changes. With Augeri in the band I reckon all hope was exhausted...even if his voice was still in good shape.

[fredinator]

I thought I saw mentioned somewhere on this forum that Steve Augeri's lip synching probably jeopardized Journey's chances of getting into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame... Is that true, Deano? Has the band ever said anything like that to you that you could share anyway? If true, and Augeri did lip synch (which I believe), that would almost be unforgivable and makes me wonder how Journey fans at BT could heap that much support on him. They ought to just let him fade away into the sunset...

[Enigma869]

I thought I saw mentioned somewhere on this forum that Steve Augeri's lip synching probably jeopardized Journey's chances of getting into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame... Is that true, Deano? Has the band ever said anything like that to you that you could share anyway? If true, and Augeri did lip synch (which I believe), that would almost be unforgivable and makes me wonder how Journey fans at BT could heap that much support on him. They ought to just let him fade away into the sunset...

I'm not Dean, but here's my take on it...If Journey ever gets into the Rock and Roll HOF (And it's a big if, because there are no bands like Journey in the hall), their induction will be based on their successes with Perry at the helm, period, end of story! I know Augeri has his fans, and I know Rolie has his. That said, if you look at Journey's career, I think it's quite obvious where their huge success came. I don't believe ANYTHING Augeri did with Journey (positive or negative) was going to have much of an impact on what essentially is a lifetime achievment award, that Augeri had nothing at all to do with! The reality is that many of Journey fans and probably even more people in the recording industry have never really viewed Augeri with "Journey" as Journey. Whether that's fair or not is an entirely separate issue.


John from Boston

[fredinator]

I wonder why that would be a big "If"... Didn't Van Halen just get inducted? Has Kiss been inducted? I love Van Halen, but I don't understand why they are being inducted if a big part of being inducted is based on songwriting, and then Journey isn't... Like everyone else, that is just my opinion...

However, I could see a scandal such as lip synching by a top-notch band torpedoing their chances, and if true, would be an unforgivable act by Steve Augeri.

[Enigma869]

I wonder why that would be a big "If"... Didn't Van Halen just get inducted? Has Kiss been inducted? I love Van Halen, but I don't understand why they are being inducted if a big part of being inducted is based on songwriting, and then Journey isn't... Like everyone else, that is just my opinion...

However, I could see a scandal such as lip synching by a top-notch band torpedoing their chances, and if true, would be an unforgivable act by Steve Augeri.

I'm pretty sure Van Halen hasn't yet been inducted. In fact, I think at this point, they've only been nominated, which doesn't mean they're going to get in. Having said that, I'm not sure I really even understand your point of bringing Van Halen up. Are you suggesting Van Halen and Journey are similar bands? I would say they have absolutely NOTHING in common, AT ALL!

John from Boston

[fredinator]

Yes, I am suggesting that they are/were considered arena bands which I thought (maybe I'm wrong) was always held against Journey. I agree with you that they are not similar in any way, I guess that is my point... Hope this makes sense; I'm not real good at getting my thoughts together succinctly...

[Clasicrockldy]

Deano,

The apology is there, and I, for one, applaud you for putting it out there. That is all you can do.

[Enigma869]

Yes, I am suggesting that they are/were considered arena bands which I thought (maybe I'm wrong) was always held against Journey. I agree with you that they are not similar in any way, I guess that is my point... Hope this makes sense; I'm not real good at getting my thoughts together succinctly...

Well the fact that both bands played concerts in huge "arenas" doesn't tell me the folks on the nomination committee are going to say "Hell, we put VH in...That means Journey should be in next". For what it's worth, I do think Journey should be in. I believe they are the 29th selling muscial act of all time. While 29 doesn't sound terribly impressive, it certainly is when put into context. I wouldn't sweat the Augeri thing too much. As I said, he won't have anything to do with it and probably won't even be invited to the ceremony. My hunch is that many people in the industry probably don't even know who the guy is. One final point...I don't think the Tapegate thing was that well known of a story, outside of the hardocre fans (i.e. those who visit internet message boards). I think it was much more of an internet story, than a mainstream one.


John from Boston

[EclipticJourney]

What a joke. So Dean apologizes, with a disclaimer that he can't guarantee he won't jump down someone's throat in the future, if he feels the poster's thoughts aren't to his final approval. Someone with Dean's track record of hate speech, towards pretty much everyone, including the band and especially towards those at bT, needs to expect that people will be skeptical.

A true apology is not dependent on whether or not the person being apolgized to accepts the apology. It is accepted on the sincerity of the person apologizing. When a person like Dean apologizes in the way in which he did, you have to take it all with a grain of salt.

Andrew has the right to run MR.com's Forums anyway he pleases and with whatever rules, or lack of rules, he so determines is right for his tastes, however when he chooses to allow basically an anything goes attitude (at least for those that agree with his approach to Forum Moderation), a pervading attitude that his website, Forums and poster roster is on a higher plane than the band's website, Forums and poster roster, then he has to realize and accept the skepticism and yes, even animosity, of those his Forum chastises as sub humans, on a daily basis.

I'm proud to be a poster at Back Talk and especially to count it's mods and most of it's postership as friends and Family. They're a great bunch of people.

Unfortunately, it's harder to get to really know anyone here on as personal a basis because the general think tank around here believes in a staunch 'freedom of speech' and no holds barred mentality in posting. I'm sure there are many great individuals here. Just very hard to know who.

[EclipticJourney]

What a joke. So Dean apologizes, with a disclaimer that he can't guarantee he won't jump down someone's throat in the future, if he feels the poster's thoughts aren't to his final approval. Someone with Dean's track record of hate speech, towards pretty much everyone, including the band and especially towards those at bT, needs to expect that people will be skeptical.

A true apology is not dependent on whether or not the person being apolgized to accepts the apology. It is accepted on the sincerity of the person apologizing. When a person like Dean apologizes in the way in which he did, you have to take it all with a grain of salt.

Andrew has the right to run MR.com's Forums anyway he pleases and with whatever rules, or lack of rules, he so determines is right for his tastes, however when he chooses to allow basically an anything goes attitude (at least for those that agree with his approach to Forum Moderation), a pervading attitude that his website, Forums and poster roster is on a higher plane than the band's website, Forums and poster roster, then he has to realize and accept the skepticism and yes, even animosity, of those his Forum chastises as sub humans, on a daily basis.

I'm proud to be a poster at Back Talk and especially to count it's mods and most of it's postership as friends and Family. They're a great bunch of people.

Unfortunately, it's harder to get to really know anyone here on as personal a basis because the general think tank around here believes in a staunch 'freedom of speech' and no holds barred mentality in posting. I'm sure there are many great individuals here. Just very hard to know who.

[bionic]

If there have been conditions that Deano must abibe by then that is because BT considers themselves to be an authority in regard to all matters Journey!
Please remember and i repeat my self Deano is seen as a man who made up lies about Augeri miming and caused Journey a lot of distress,also remarks about the wieght of various BTpeople will be hard to forgive
I do not expect any one on that board to embrace Deano in any way.
As i have stated i regard that board as a joke with little sense of reality thats why we are here,lets just forget them and let them live in there world of unreality...Augeri will be better soon and back in the band etc.

[CatEyes]

There still is hope.

The RnRHoF Foundation just changed both the Nominating Committee and voting members.

Both were drastically cut as well as older members replaced with newer members.

Journey was the first band to have corporate sponsorship - which led them to be branded as "corporate rock" in the early 80's - and it was cool to ridicule that. A lot of older members of the committee carried that with them. Now that many of those older members are being replaced by younger members, (who probably have never seen a concert WITHOUT corporate sponsoship) some of that prejudice may disappear.

Also, Terry Stewart, President of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum in Cleveland, and member of the Executive Committee of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation in NY has this to say about it:


Nomination and induction into the Hall of Fame is not about popularity, records sales, which label the group is on, or anything other than the process below. The love for, the evaluation of, and the impact of any artist are subjective questions to be answered by the nominators and the voters. Unlike baseball, football, basketball or hockey, statistics are not relevant. Please read below:

The entire nomination and induction process is coordinated by the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation in New York City. Individuals can be inducted in four categories: Performer, Early Influence, Non-Performer and Side-Men. The only formal criteria for the performance category is that an artist has to have had their first record 25 years ago. That said, candidates are reviewed and discussed relative to their impact on this music that we broadly call rock and roll. The innovation and influence of these artists is also critical. Gold records, number one hits, and million sellers are really not appropriate standards for evaluation.

The formal selection of Performers begins with an extensive panel of journalists, historians, previous inductees, noted musicians, industry heads, etc. In turn, those nominated are sent to a committee of more than 800 people around the world (journalists, historians, music industry management, all previous inductees, musicians, etc.) who vote. Those receiving the highest number of votes and more than 50% of the votes cast are inducted into the Hall. Usually, this means five to seven new performing members each year. So you can see the road to being inducted is an arduous one and for the most part, removed from the realm of influences or politics.

The key phrase in there is "innovation and influence." If that doesn't describe the artist you support, it's probably unlikely they'll make it in. It's also interesting to note that they actively reject record sales data as a criteria for induction

The voting for the nominations has always taken place the last week of May first week of June, with the ballot announced mid-September. This year they were delayed - and the ballot was not announced until November. It could have been the reconfiguring of the committeess or something else.

Cat

[McNeil]

Jesus Christ. So much for offering a branch of good will, huh?

I was serious, and still am too, about being kinder to BT and its' members. I offered the best intentions and good will gesture, but these holier than thou fuckholes respond by saying they will monitor my behaviour and see "where we are in 30 days." They also set a stringent load of "conditions." You believe these assholes? This isn't Mid East Peace Talks. This isn't Congressional budget talks. We are talking Message Boards.

Apologize BY NAME to each and every moderator?

See where we are in 30 days?

Well, here is my response.

FUCK YOU!


Andrew, wait til you see the shit they wrote me. I am DONE playing Mr. Uniter. Lord knows I tried and will still try to refrain from insulting, however, I cannot promise to always do that.

So, Rusty, you sir have failed miserably in your role in Message Board Peace talks. You dropped the ball and so did Cj. Any lip from you assholes and I will post those regoddamnediculous PM's with the fucking "conditions" you mandated.

You can also forget about ANY apologies coming from me. You took a good willed gesture and tried to one up me. You should know by now that would never be possible. History, my friend. Learn from it.

Deano, I offered you the olive branch on a couple of occasions, and i recall you saying "Fuck you" ..so I guess its Karma buddy!! what goes around etc etc !!

[heardonthestreet]

There still is hope.

The RnRHoF Foundation just changed both the Nominating Committee and voting members.

Both were drastically cut as well as older members replaced with newer members.

Journey was the first band to have corporate sponsorship - which led them to be branded as "corporate rock" in the early 80's - and it was cool to ridicule that. A lot of older members of the committee carried that with them. Now that many of those older members are being replaced by younger members, (who probably have never seen a concert WITHOUT corporate sponsoship) some of that prejudice may disappear.

Also, Terry Stewart, President of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum in Cleveland, and member of the Executive Committee of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation in NY has this to say about it:



Nomination and induction into the Hall of Fame is not about popularity, records sales, which label the group is on, or anything other than the process below. The love for, the evaluation of, and the impact of any artist are subjective questions to be answered by the nominators and the voters. Unlike baseball, football, basketball or hockey, statistics are not relevant. Please read below:

The entire nomination and induction process is coordinated by the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation in New York City. Individuals can be inducted in four categories: Performer, Early Influence, Non-Performer and Side-Men. The only formal criteria for the performance category is that an artist has to have had their first record 25 years ago. That said, candidates are reviewed and discussed relative to their impact on this music that we broadly call rock and roll. The innovation and influence of these artists is also critical. Gold records, number one hits, and million sellers are really not appropriate standards for evaluation.

The formal selection of Performers begins with an extensive panel of journalists, historians, previous inductees, noted musicians, industry heads, etc. In turn, those nominated are sent to a committee of more than 800 people around the world (journalists, historians, music industry management, all previous inductees, musicians, etc.) who vote. Those receiving the highest number of votes and more than 50% of the votes cast are inducted into the Hall. Usually, this means five to seven new performing members each year. So you can see the road to being inducted is an arduous one and for the most part, removed from the realm of influences or politics.

The key phrase in there is "innovation and influence." If that doesn't describe the artist you support, it's probably unlikely they'll make it in. It's also interesting to note that they actively reject record sales data as a criteria for induction

The voting for the nominations has always taken place the last week of May first week of June, with the ballot announced mid-September. This year they were delayed - and the ballot was not announced until November. It could have been the reconfiguring of the committeess or something else.

Cat

...............................................

I have a petition started with 1 million and 2 signitures started for Steve Perry and his sidemen, for next year. Anyone want to sign up?

[lights1961]

*yawn*

my sentiments exactly....

[Rockindeano]

Deano, I offered you the olive branch on a couple of occasions, and i recall you saying "Fuck you" ..so I guess its Karma buddy!! what goes around etc etc !!

Yep, damn right. And you know what, at least I didn't give you 5 conditions of which you should abide by. At least I was honest and said "Fuck You."

[heardonthestreet]

Deano, I offered you the olive branch on a couple of occasions, and i recall you saying "Fuck you" ..so I guess its Karma buddy!! what goes around etc etc !!

Yep, damn right. And you know what, at least I didn't give you 5 conditions of which I should abide by. At least I was honest and said "Fuck You."

.....................................
At least 50% of the board was honest and indicated FUCK YOU so the majority rules. You're just a sore loser.

[CatEyes]

...............................................

I have a petition started with 1 million and 2 signitures started for Steve Perry and his sidemen, for next year. Anyone want to sign up?

Hots I will always sign a petition for Steve Perry - is it online?

The problems with petitions is 1) the HoF hates petitions and usually dismisses them, altho logic would ask "How can they not listen to 1M fans"

2) Petitions need to be separate for Perry and for each individual side person

3)the online petitions are difficult to confirm - and you have to eliminate all dupes.

Would love to see it.

Cat

[heardonthestreet]

...............................................

I have a petition started with 1 million and 2 signitures started for Steve Perry and his sidemen, for next year. Anyone want to sign up?

Hots I will always sign a petition for Steve Perry - is it online?

The problems with petitions is 1) the HoF hates petitions and usually dismisses them, altho logic would ask "How can they not listen to 1M fans"

2) Petitions need to be separate for Perry and for each individual side person

3)the online petitions are difficult to confirm - and you have to eliminate all dupes.

Would love to see it.

Cat

......................................

Would love to show it to you,

[Rockindeano]

2) Petitions need to be separate for Perry and for each individual side person

You have got to be kidding me. Cat, please don't say you are advocating by offering rules to StreetGirl, how to get perry into the RORHOF without the rest of the band.

If I misunderstood you, sorry.

Streetwhore, how can you have the gall to even suggest this BULLSHIT. Without Neal, Ross, Friga and Smitty, Greg Rolie and Herbie Herbert, Perry is nowhere in music.

[PROPERRY]

There still is hope.

The RnRHoF Foundation just changed both the Nominating Committee and voting members.

Both were drastically cut as well as older members replaced with newer members.

Journey was the first band to have corporate sponsorship - which led them to be branded as "corporate rock" in the early 80's - and it was cool to ridicule that. A lot of older members of the committee carried that with them. Now that many of those older members are being replaced by younger members, (who probably have never seen a concert WITHOUT corporate sponsoship) some of that prejudice may disappear.

Also, Terry Stewart, President of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and Museum in Cleveland, and member of the Executive Committee of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation in NY has this to say about it:



Nomination and induction into the Hall of Fame is not about popularity, records sales, which label the group is on, or anything other than the process below. The love for, the evaluation of, and the impact of any artist are subjective questions to be answered by the nominators and the voters. Unlike baseball, football, basketball or hockey, statistics are not relevant. Please read below:

The entire nomination and induction process is coordinated by the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation in New York City. Individuals can be inducted in four categories: Performer, Early Influence, Non-Performer and Side-Men. The only formal criteria for the performance category is that an artist has to have had their first record 25 years ago. That said, candidates are reviewed and discussed relative to their impact on this music that we broadly call rock and roll. The innovation and influence of these artists is also critical. Gold records, number one hits, and million sellers are really not appropriate standards for evaluation.

The formal selection of Performers begins with an extensive panel of journalists, historians, previous inductees, noted musicians, industry heads, etc. In turn, those nominated are sent to a committee of more than 800 people around the world (journalists, historians, music industry management, all previous inductees, musicians, etc.) who vote. Those receiving the highest number of votes and more than 50% of the votes cast are inducted into the Hall. Usually, this means five to seven new performing members each year. So you can see the road to being inducted is an arduous one and for the most part, removed from the realm of influences or politics.

The key phrase in there is "innovation and influence." If that doesn't describe the artist you support, it's probably unlikely they'll make it in. It's also interesting to note that they actively reject record sales data as a criteria for induction

The voting for the nominations has always taken place the last week of May first week of June, with the ballot announced mid-September. This year they were delayed - and the ballot was not announced until November. It could have been the reconfiguring of the committeess or something else.

Cat

...............................................

I have a petition started with 1 million and 2 signitures started for Steve Perry and his sidemen, for next year. Anyone want to sign up?

I think I signed one of those petitions long, long time ago, but I feel the Journey that should be honored is Steve Perry , Steve S., Jonathan C. Neal S., Ross V., Greg R., and Robert F.

Anyone AFTER the Steve Perry era, I don't feel should be considered ( just my opinion).

Lori

[Moon Beam]

As much as I love Perry and would love to
see im in there, I don't think he could pull it
off on his own coat tails.