Caveman's Latest

[NoMoreTails]

Time for Nea1 to put the Hendrix SSB out to stud.
If he must whet his Hendrix whist1e (Myse1f I'd rather it be kept to Journey but...) I'd take the terrific Journey version of Voodoo Chi1d they were working out on the DeTour in '04.

I'd like to hear him bring back Amazing Grace for the live solo, still have never found a recording, this was probably from the Under the Radar tour.
Glad to hear about the new instrumental, could the Vegas show intro leading into AWYWI have been a portion of it...

[E5C4P3 4 U]

I would guess that the instrumental will probably be called "Revelation" to close out the album. It possibly could be a studio version of the intro Neal played in Vegas. With that being said, we know Never Walk Away, Wildest Dreams, After All These Years, What it Takes to Win (Mentioned in the "Cain Radio Interview" thread), and this instrumental. Thats five out of eleven that we know. Pretty soon we will have the full tracklist.

[Lula]

Arnel can sing, but so far the new material isn't any better than Augeri era stuff. I predict at best, it will be Arrival part 2 and won't have the "it" factor of Escape or Frontiers. That chemistry ship sailed when Perry retired.

i agree with you. also the survivor comment- the new ballad sounds like survivor to me. happy those involved are enthusiastic, but let's be honest- better than Frontiers? i highly doubt it! seems so easy for them to discount the Perry era and that is what they are trying to duplicate.... yeah, good luck with that!

[The_Noble_Cause]

Didn't Neal claim Arrival was Escape for 2001 (or something like that) back in the day?

He did tease fans with that initially before Arrival came out. Blame Cain or Kalodner, but what fans were essentially served was a total puss-fest. If it weren't for Andrew's comments, Arrival would've been as bad as ROR imo.

Of the songs I heard so far, sounds more like Bad English meets Survivor than Journey.

I like Bad English. I'll take it! Much of "Arrival" sounded like Bad English rejects anyhow. "Nothin Comes Close" especially.

The only Perry era Journey track I've heard is a blatant knock off of Be Good to Yourself (never walk away) so for Caveman to make this statement, knowing full well what they did on that song, I'd say the statement is hype on its face.

Ever think the reason you're the only person up in arms over this putative plagarism controversy is because your the only one who hears it?
The choruses are completely different. The BGTY similarities are so slight as to be not worth mentioning.
Get Jeremey in here. He had a hand in writing it.

[STORY_TELLER]

Ever think the reason you're the only person up in arms over this putative plagarism controversy is because your the only one who hears it?
The choruses are completely different. The BGTY similarities are so slight as to be not worth mentioning.
Get Jeremey in here. He had a hand in writing it.

Wow. The Choruses are completely different. I stand corrected! Dude, are you seriously splitting that fine a hair in favor of this being an original song? I beg to differ. The words in the song are different but the vocal melodies map in the 90% range to Be Good To Yourself. The chord progressions are identical. The vocal harmonies are identical. If your threshold of plagiarism is so high that you can't call this what it is I have to question why.

People aren't posting threads about it, but there are plenty of those who agree.

I think the reason I'm the only person up in arms over it is because I'm not cheerleading like most are.

Those who are supporting Journey are doing so whole heartedly and glossing over legitimate issues like this. Once you're a cheerleader, you'll support your team in all things. How many 'wigglers' (Augeri Cheerleaders) were out there slamming tape gate left right and center, calling it a lie? Same thing happening here. When the issue is raised about BGTY/Never Walk Away, these same people are looking for the differences in the song with ears intent on accepting it as original. That's called predisposed bias. The deck is stacked on this board in favor of there being no foul play. That doesn't make it so.

As far as getting Jeremey in here: No way he can say anything 100% honest about this. Forget that he has royalties at stake. How about a slander suit? Don't put him in that position, just use your ears and be fair. Like I said, if this same song was recorded by Survivor, you guys would be screaming rip off just like me. You're letting it go because Journey did it to themselves, but that doesn't make it okay.

[Saint John]

I was there and heard "Never Walk Away" the first time they ever played it live in front of an audience, and the thought "Man, this kind of sounds like BGTY" never crossed my mind. Hell, even after listening to and comparing the songs afterward I still only hear a minimal resemblance...which might be because both songs were musically created by essentially the same people!!! Kind of like Separate Ways and Message Of Love, but for me, to a far lesser extent.

[Lora]

Ever think the reason you're the only person up in arms over this putative plagarism controversy is because your the only one who hears it?
The choruses are completely different. The BGTY similarities are so slight as to be not worth mentioning.
Get Jeremey in here. He had a hand in writing it.

Wow. The Choruses are completely different. I stand corrected! Dude, are you seriously splitting that fine a hair in favor of this being an original song? I beg to differ. The words in the song are different but the vocal melodies map in the 90% range to Be Good To Yourself. The chord progressions are identical. The vocal harmonies are identical. If your threshold of plagiarism is so high that you can't call this what it is I have to question why.corded by Survivor, you guys would be screaming rip off just like me. You're letting it go because Journey did it to themselves, but that doesn't make it okay.

I absolutely hear BGTY in this song. Whether or not it's okay.....eh. I guess if Journey wants to rip off Journey, they can. I think it sounded better the first go-round, though.

[STORY_TELLER]

I was there and heard "Never Walk Away" the first time they ever played it live in front of an audience, and the thought "Man, this kind of sounds like BGTY" never crossed my mind. Hell, even after listening to and comparing the songs afterward I still only hear a minimal resemblance...which might be because both songs were musically created by essentially the same people!!! Kind of like Separate Ways and Message Of Love, but for me, to a far lesser extent.

Well, John, respectfully, you're the biggest cheerleader on this board right now so I can't take your comments as unbiased anymore than I could take Strangegrey's comments as unbiased. I think you want to hear minimal resemblance.

I took both songs and literally slipped sections of them into one another in an editing program. Even the tempos of the song are practically the same. The songs complete each other almost seamlessly. Like I said, how high is your threshold of plagiarism? When would this song be a knock off to you?

Don't give me that "same people" argument. That's nonsense. Pick out any other Journey song from Infinity to Raised on Radio and show me a song that sounds like one they did before. They all sound like Journey but there's not a single knock off among them. This is a knock off. That's what's at issue.

[STORY_TELLER]

Ever think the reason you're the only person up in arms over this putative plagarism controversy is because your the only one who hears it?
The choruses are completely different. The BGTY similarities are so slight as to be not worth mentioning.
Get Jeremey in here. He had a hand in writing it.

Wow. The Choruses are completely different. I stand corrected! Dude, are you seriously splitting that fine a hair in favor of this being an original song? I beg to differ. The words in the song are different but the vocal melodies map in the 90% range to Be Good To Yourself. The chord progressions are identical. The vocal harmonies are identical. If your threshold of plagiarism is so high that you can't call this what it is I have to question why.corded by Survivor, you guys would be screaming rip off just like me. You're letting it go because Journey did it to themselves, but that doesn't make it okay.

I absolutely hear BGTY in this song. Whether or not it's okay.....eh. I guess if Journey wants to rip off Journey, they can. I think it sounded better the first go-round, though.

For me it's an integrity issue, not a legal one. It's about questioning the hype. On one hand Neal and Jon say they're going for a grammy. That gets us excited to hear these "artists" really push themselves and put their all into what we all want: Great new original music from the band.

Then we get a knock off of one of their previous hits from the Perry era. You're going to tell me we shouldn't be disappointed by this? Maybe even a little angry? If you listen to what these guys are saying in their interviews, they've forgotten what it means to be artists. Cain is now referring to Journey as a "franchise". When he opens his mouth, I don't hear Jon Cain, brilliant song writer, I hear Azoff talking and now it's affecting the music. He's creating art by committee and its affecting the quality in a contrived manner.

I use the term plagiarism because it's the most clear way to describe what's going on, not because I'm looking for real legal issues to be raised. I say it's not "okay" because it's never artistically okay for a band to knock off their own material and turn around and sell it to their fan base as new music.

Anyone who accepts otherwise, well, bet ya can't wait to see how they revisit Don't Stop Believin' next, huh?

[Red13JoePa]

There is no BGTY in the youtube concert version of Wa1k Away that I hear.
There are those with axes to grind and sour grapes who think they hear ripoffs of the o1d days in ANYthing since '98 and so it becomes a se1f-fu11fi11ing prophecy and they hear what they want to hear.

It is Journey, A11 the music of course is going to sound 1ike Journey.

[STORY_TELLER]

There is no BGTY in the youtube concert version of Wa1k Away that I hear.
There are those with axes to grind and sour grapes who think they hear ripoffs of the o1d days in ANYthing since '98 and so it becomes a se1f-fu11fi11ing prophecy and they hear what they want to hear.

It is Journey, A11 the music of course is going to sound 1ike Journey.

This isn't an axe to grind. I'm on record as saying Arnel is the best singer they've had since Perry. And as far as you not hearing BGTY, well, you can't tell the difference between an "L" and the number "1", lol... but more importantly, you also don't hear a difference between Survivor and Journey, or Steve Perry and Augeri, so... we have to consider the source.

Whatever. I'm going to walk from the thread now, because to respond to every statement is just too time consuming. I will say, when you guys buy the album, the similarities will be more glaring for you when you have better recordings from which to compare and judge.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Umm, as a guy who first notified Deano about the lip-synching scandal and also stated as early as 2002 that Augeri was the wrong choice I don't need any sermons on not being "a cheerleader". Thank you.
I simply don't hear what you are hearing. I am sorry. It sounds no more like BGTY than Soto's "Believe in Me" or "To Be Alive Again."

I think some of you now crying "plagarism" might be casual fans who haven't given the band a fair listen since ROR.
The very start of WGW sounds like SW, the keyboards in MOL sounds a little like SW.
Same deal here. No biggie.

[STORY_TELLER]

Umm, as a guy who first notified Deano about the lip-synching scandal and also stated as early as 2002 that Augeri was the wrong choice I don't need any sermons on being "a cheerleader". Thank you. I simply don't hear what you are hearing. I am sorry. It sounds no more like BGTY than Soto's "Believe in Me."

Okay, LAST response... lol. Then I have to get to work.

I don't compare Believe in Me to BGTY because it was changed enough to truly make an original song out of it. At best, it's the similarity from MOL to SW. Similar, but there's no mistaking the songs for one another.

But when I can slip two songs in an editing program and virtually make one almost seamless song out of them? If you can't see the distinction I'm making, then I have to believe you're allowing for it with an abnormally high threshold of knock off tolerance. Lip-synching might have been too much for you to take so you blew a whistle. Maybe what I'm complaining about is acceptable to you.

Call me crazy, but when a band creates new music I kind of expect it to truly be new. I don't want to listen to a new album and be reminded of a hit they already made. I shouldn't be able to slip in lyrics from BGTY when I crank Never Walk Away while driving in my car. You can't do that with Believe in Me, but you can do it on Never Walk Away. Remember Me was a new Journey song that sounded like Journey. You can't point to it and say, "hey kind of sounds like this other one they did...", right?

Oh, forgot to add: I brought up the tapegate comparison, not directing it at you, but to answer your larger question as to why other's weren't posting about the issue like was. It was to point out how cheerleaders react and defend their heroes from biased points of view.

[FishinMagician]

Time for Nea1 to put the Hendrix SSB out to stud.
If he must whet his Hendrix whist1e (Myse1f I'd rather it be kept to Journey but...) I'd take the terrific Journey version of Voodoo Chi1d they were working out on the DeTour in '04.

As long as I don't hear smooth jazz instrumentals of radio hits for housewives I don't mind what the guy plays.....

Neal can be pretty jazzy,but i dont think he would do that!

[youkeepmewaiting]

So what if one new Journey songs sounds like one old Journey song

[Matthew]

So what if one new Journey songs sounds like one old Journey song

I think Storyteller's point is that they have pretty much just lifted an entire track. I guess that doesn't matter if you have low expectations of the song-writing on the new album...

[youkeepmewaiting]

So what if one new Journey songs sounds like one old Journey song

I think Storyteller's point is that they have pretty much just lifted an entire track. I guess that doesn't matter if you have low expectations of the song-writing on the new album...

Out of the three songs.

One sounds like an old Journey track
The two others dont.

so thats 2-1 in Journeys favour

[ProgRocker53]

Time for Nea1 to put the Hendrix SSB out to stud.
If he must whet his Hendrix whist1e (Myse1f I'd rather it be kept to Journey but...) I'd take the terrific Journey version of Voodoo Chi1d they were working out on the DeTour in '04.

As long as I don't hear smooth jazz instrumentals of radio hits for housewives I don't mind what the guy plays.....

Neal can be pretty jazzy,but i dont think he would do that!

He already did that, an ENTIRE ALBUM, and got nominated for a Grammy for it. Check out the album Voice.

[Matthew]

So what if one new Journey songs sounds like one old Journey song

I think Storyteller's point is that they have pretty much just lifted an entire track. I guess that doesn't matter if you have low expectations of the song-writing on the new album...

Out of the three songs.

One sounds like an old Journey track
The two others dont.

so thats 2-1 in Journeys favour

Actually my favourite track of the three is the BGTY rip-off....

[Matthew]

Time for Nea1 to put the Hendrix SSB out to stud.
If he must whet his Hendrix whist1e (Myse1f I'd rather it be kept to Journey but...) I'd take the terrific Journey version of Voodoo Chi1d they were working out on the DeTour in '04.

As long as I don't hear smooth jazz instrumentals of radio hits for housewives I don't mind what the guy plays.....

Neal can be pretty jazzy,but i dont think he would do that!

He already did that, an ENTIRE ALBUM, and got nominated for a Grammy for it. Check out the album Voice.

That album is my worst nightmare....I mean covers of Enrique Englesias...come on!

[Saint John]

I think Storyteller's point is that they have pretty much just lifted an entire track.

Bullshit. Some hear it and some don't. Besides, Cain has always maintained that he has well over 300 songs on his computer. This song could be from the ROR era or even pre-date BGTY. Personally, I don't give a shit as they sound like 2 completely different songs and the minute similarities people seem to hear could be attributed to them being composed by Schon and Cain. This is a non-issue, people. The song is good. I like it more than Wildest Dreams, but not as much as After All These Years.

[ProgRocker53]

Time for Nea1 to put the Hendrix SSB out to stud.
If he must whet his Hendrix whist1e (Myse1f I'd rather it be kept to Journey but...) I'd take the terrific Journey version of Voodoo Chi1d they were working out on the DeTour in '04.

As long as I don't hear smooth jazz instrumentals of radio hits for housewives I don't mind what the guy plays.....

Neal can be pretty jazzy,but i dont think he would do that!

He already did that, an ENTIRE ALBUM, and got nominated for a Grammy for it. Check out the album Voice.

That album is my worst nightmare....I mean covers of Enrique Englesias...come on!

I haven't brought myself to listen to it yet. I listen to ALL of Neal's other solo stuff but for some reason I can't check out Voice. I think it might be because I'm afraid I may actually like it. Then again, I DO listen to Cain solo material , so I think I MIGHT have the capacity to dig some smooth jazz covers of adult contemporary standards.

[AlienC]

I haven't brought myself to listen to it yet. I listen to ALL of Neal's other solo stuff but for some reason I can't check out Voice. I think it might be because I'm afraid I may actually like it. Then again, I DO listen to Cain solo material , so I think I MIGHT have the capacity to dig some smooth jazz covers of adult contemporary standards.

I hear ya on this one. Some of the songs I'm not that fond of, but hey, I don't have to leave them in the playlist, and I can take whatever ones make my skin crawl off the MP3 player for good.

Voice is a good disc to put in the multi disc player on shuffle for a dinner party or Background Music in a retail environment. Recognizable tracks, nothing that re-directs one's attention back to the material ie: too much "Noodle-Rama" or a vocalist growling like a stuck cat.

Dug out an old CD of rough mixes from Electric World. Played it against the commercial release.

They mastered the "life" ouit of what we recorded. Sounds like someone played on a speaker underneath a blanket, then re-recorded that and pressed THAT.
"Higher Octave" maybe, LOWER FIDELITY for sure.

[Saint John]

I thought that TBF, while not Perry or the band's best effort, was absolutely magnificently mixed and produced. Listening to that album with headphones on is incredible. Hopefully, Shirley is able to do the same with Revelation. Allen, where you involved with TBF? If so, care to talk about it a bit?

[youkeepmewaiting]

Time for Nea1 to put the Hendrix SSB out to stud.
If he must whet his Hendrix whist1e (Myse1f I'd rather it be kept to Journey but...) I'd take the terrific Journey version of Voodoo Chi1d they were working out on the DeTour in '04.

As long as I don't hear smooth jazz instrumentals of radio hits for housewives I don't mind what the guy plays.....

Neal can be pretty jazzy,but i dont think he would do that!

He already did that, an ENTIRE ALBUM, and got nominated for a Grammy for it. Check out the album Voice.

That album is my worst nightmare....I mean covers of Enrique Englesias...come on!

I haven't brought myself to listen to it yet. I listen to ALL of Neal's other solo stuff but for some reason I can't check out Voice. I think it might be because I'm afraid I may actually like it. Then again, I DO listen to Cain solo material , so I think I MIGHT have the capacity to dig some smooth jazz covers of adult contemporary standards.

I quite like Cains solo stuff. I liked his instrumental album. And the last one was good once you get past the average voice

[ProgRocker53]

I thought that TBF, while not Perry or the band's best effort, was absolutely magnificently mixed and produced. Listening to that album with headphones on is incredible. Hopefully, Shirley is able to do the same with Revelation. Allen, where you involved with TBF? If so, care to talk about it a bit?

TBF is a very good album for the headphones. The production, mixing, layering, and overall instrumental prowess demonstrated on that record rival even Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree, who are renowned for their production values.

If it wasn't for the overkill of ballads on TBF I'd contend that it was their most progressive Perry-era release.

[Saint John]

I thought that TBF, while not Perry or the band's best effort, was absolutely magnificently mixed and produced. Listening to that album with headphones on is incredible. Hopefully, Shirley is able to do the same with Revelation. Allen, where you involved with TBF? If so, care to talk about it a bit?

TBF is a very good album for the headphones. The production, mixing, layering, and overall instrumental prowess demonstrated on that record rival even Dream Theater and Porcupine Tree, who are renowned for their production values.

If it wasn't for the overkill of ballads on TBF I'd contend that it was their most progressive Perry-era release.

Agreed with on all counts.

[AlienC]

Hell yes I was "involved".
#1. Check the early credits for the Japanese Release, you'll see my name at the end of the Schon, Perry Cain line up on "See It In Your Eyes". Wrote the first verse for Steve so he could quit riffing uh uh uh's at the beginning before his lyrics kicked in. I'm a good wing man..... See an opening, feed you the line, SCORE. That's the kind of guy I am, looking out for the team without selfish intrusion. I believe it has been dropped on subsequent releases. Jeremy might want to take note of that. IF VH can do it to Michael Anthony, it can happen to you.
#2. Built Neal's Guitar rig for that project using my "New Era Technology" refinement of the Analog / Digital Modeling / Synth Rig from ABRAXAS ) . "New Era Technology" is the term I use to describe my integration of Proprietary Discrete High Power and Signal Switching Hardware (designed by yours truly, built by FULLTONE), my selection of specific Power Regulation and Conditioning Hardware and my construction of superior signal level cableing. All wire is not created equally.
#3. Engineered the stage monitors and headphones for the songwriting sessions in the Original Journey Rehersal Facility in Oakland.
#4. Documented each song as it progressed from initial riff/ idea /whatever until it was ready for the demo reel.
This consisted of a paper hard copy with chord changes, Lyrics (if any), arrangement in a simple linear / elapsed time format, in addition to a cassette for each member at the end of the day.
This meant running several cassette decks so that no utterance went unrecorded. The Nixon White House wasn't recorded as well as this room was. Then I had to run high speed copies so each member had what everyone else had, so they could work on them on their own.
#5. While rehearsing, I was still obliged to maintain the studio and Neal's personal gear stored there. Rust Never Sleeps, you know.
#6. Need lunch? Guess who is running? NOT ME, RINDELL did , bwahahahahah. I was there making Al's Famous Espresso.
#7. Through my computer (486 running win95 on AOL) I introduced everyone to the World Wide Web.
Started an online presence at the AOL chatroom, then progressed to Skylorde's site.
Showed them by encoding a song they wrote that day to an MP3 and then playing it against the cassette copy , what the potential of that then new medium might be.


That's it off the top of my head. Anything specific you want to know?

[larryfromnextdoor]

allen,, dang man.. your BATMAN dude,,

love to read your stuff!! outstanding..

[Saint John]

Thanks a MILLION, Allen. You were able to do, and be a part of, what most of us can only dream about!!! Thanks for your contributions, man. Hey, one question...Did Perry insist on layered background vox with just him, was that just assumed or did the guys want "real" background vox. To my ears, like ROR, it's just layers of Perry and no one else.