OT: age issue in the olympics, does it matter?

[T-Bone]

So, with that analogy, kids who want to drive, although the age is 16, should be able to drive as long as they REALLY want to. And they'll be able to drink if they REALLY REALLY want to. We wouldn't want to discorage them A Rule is a Rule and it's for a reason... They cheated, lied about it, and are now... busted!

[The Sushi Hunter]

Minimum age rules are also about preventing the exploitation of children. We had some pretty awful things going on in US factories before we passed such laws (like kids working in shafts of coal mines that were too small for adults to fit into). If there are no minimums (and it looks like even with them) younger and younger children will get pushed into arenas intended for adults.

I hear you on this one, but this is a different story. I believe it is common for young children to start to train at an earlier age without coercion, most especially if those children loves to get involved in sports. the exploitation issue is not even a real concern unless the children's welfare is really affected. again, the question of how do people know that children are really exploited?

I remembered some olympics before where some young athletes got disqualified during the competition itself due to age issues and where the athletes would cry because of it. mind you that those athletes were really good and the ones that blew the whistles were ehem.....their opponents. where such incidents led me to believe that it's all about medals and gold.


*I dont encourage performance drugs because they are not natural and highly illegal. but I encourage a person to exceed their limitations.

Here's the deal: It's an imperfect system, but the assumption is that kids can't freely consent to participate in work (or elite athletics training) because they are dependent on their parents for survival. So if their parents want them to do something, the child can't really say "no" independent of coersion. Then add the emotional load of wanting to please one's parents, and the stages of cognition kids move through at different ages, and it gets really complicated. So society steps in to establish laws to protect individuals and groups that might not be able to independently protect themselves. Does this potentially negatively impact kids and families who genuinely want to compete younger and who might be capable of doing so and who might be doing all the right things? Sure. But the laws are designed to protect the most vulnerable members of the group.

I understand the concerns here to the younglings. but this also reminds me of saying "you are too young for this particular sport", which can be considered a way of disencouraging and disheartening the child. sure there are several factors that motivate these kids from doing the sport, but the reasons are several. it can be due to what the parents want or it can be what the kid wants. these things are not only limited on one nation. these kids enjoy playing with barbie dolls and stuff, but that doesn't handicap them or divert their love for the sport.

I know this, because some decades ago when we were young, some of us dreamt and enjoyed playing some sports ourselves, not just playing transformers, atari and watching my lil pony and the carebears do their countdown. not all can excel and not all have such motivation and love for a sport. so it's better to let them enjoy it. that's fair enough in my opinion. drugs ain't.

Back in the mid to late 70's, I used to skateboard everywhere I went, that was the normal thing Ca kids did back then. Anyways, when I was 12 years old, some dude that was 18 or 19 wanted to go up against me in some skateboarding contest. I schooled that dude big time and was happy that I won. So these girls/women in the olympics must be loving it when they are beating older athletes. Because when your a teen, everyone who's older then you wants to show you up. And when you beat the older people around you, your no longer concerned that your younger then they are.

[T-Bone]

Look at it this way: If it was the USA that was being accused, where would we be? In the middle of a chaotic clusterfuck....

[Luvsaugeri]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/22/SP8412GB61.DTL&tsp=1

There is enough evidence for the IOC to investigate.

So what's the evidence besides them looking young for their age and winning gold medals?

Age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the internet.

Now that's interesting. Nowhere have I read the mention of age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, nor have I read media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the interent. Seems the only place I've read any of those things is from you.

Nope...I heard that too. In past competitions the birthdays were one thing and now they were altered to make them older.

[Luvsaugeri]

Minimum age rules are also about preventing the exploitation of children. We had some pretty awful things going on in US factories before we passed such laws (like kids working in shafts of coal mines that were too small for adults to fit into). If there are no minimums (and it looks like even with them) younger and younger children will get pushed into arenas intended for adults.

I hear you on this one, but this is a different story. I believe it is common for young children to start to train at an earlier age without coercion, most especially if those children loves to get involved in sports. the exploitation issue is not even a real concern unless the children's welfare is really affected. again, the question of how do people know that children are really exploited?

I remembered some olympics before where some young athletes got disqualified during the competition itself due to age issues and where the athletes would cry because of it. mind you that those athletes were really good and the ones that blew the whistles were ehem.....their opponents. where such incidents led me to believe that it's all about medals and gold.


*I dont encourage performance drugs because they are not natural and highly illegal. but I encourage a person to exceed their limitations.

Here's the deal: It's an imperfect system, but the assumption is that kids can't freely consent to participate in work (or elite athletics training) because they are dependent on their parents for survival. So if their parents want them to do something, the child can't really say "no" independent of coersion. Then add the emotional load of wanting to please one's parents, and the stages of cognition kids move through at different ages, and it gets really complicated. So society steps in to establish laws to protect individuals and groups that might not be able to independently protect themselves. Does this potentially negatively impact kids and families who genuinely want to compete younger and who might be capable of doing so and who might be doing all the right things? Sure. But the laws are designed to protect the most vulnerable members of the group.

I understand the concerns here to the younglings. but this also reminds me of saying "you are too young for this particular sport", which can be considered a way of disencouraging and disheartening the child. sure there are several factors that motivate these kids from doing the sport, but the reasons are several. it can be due to what the parents want or it can be what the kid wants. these things are not only limited on one nation. these kids enjoy playing with barbie dolls and stuff, but that doesn't handicap them or divert their love for the sport.

I know this, because some decades ago when we were young, some of us dreamt and enjoyed playing some sports ourselves, not just playing transformers, atari and watching my lil pony and the carebears do their countdown. not all can excel and not all have such motivation and love for a sport. so it's better to let them enjoy it. that's fair enough in my opinion. drugs ain't.

Back in the mid to late 70's, I used to skateboard everywhere I went, that was the normal thing Ca kids did back then. Anyways, when I was 12 years old, some dude that was 18 or 19 wanted to go up against me in some skateboarding contest. I schooled that dude big time and was happy that I won. So these girls/women in the olympics must be loving it when they are beating older athletes. Because when your a teen, everyone who's older then you wants to show you up. And when you beat the older people around you, your no longer concerned that your younger then they are.

You are totally missing the point. The point is not HOW old the age should be. The point is the age limit is 16. So everyone should abide by the same rules. Period. Sheesh.....it's not that hard to understand.

[scarygirl]

If the age is 16 then China should be disqualified. I feel bad for their gymnasts though. They're just pawns.

[RedWingFan]

Now that's interesting. Nowhere have I read the mention of age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, nor have I read media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the interent. Seems the only place I've read any of those things is from you.

Here you go.... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 578241.ece

No comment on this Sushi Hunter? Ignorance IS bliss, I guess.

[RedWingFan]

Minimum age rules are also about preventing the exploitation of children. We had some pretty awful things going on in US factories before we passed such laws (like kids working in shafts of coal mines that were too small for adults to fit into). If there are no minimums (and it looks like even with them) younger and younger children will get pushed into arenas intended for adults.

I hear you on this one, but this is a different story. I believe it is common for young children to start to train at an earlier age without coercion, most especially if those children loves to get involved in sports. the exploitation issue is not even a real concern unless the children's welfare is really affected. again, the question of how do people know that children are really exploited?

Great article from Time magazine here. Sad. "without coercion" doesn't much exist in China.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 61,00.html
Here's just a snippet from the article

A year ago, a slender girl called Cloud had no idea she would dedicate her life to lifting disks of iron above her head. Then a stranger came to her remote village in eastern China's Shandong province, took detailed measurements of her shoulder width, thigh length and waist circumference--and announced she would have the honor of serving her motherland as a weight lifter. The then 14-year-old daughter of vegetable farmers had little choice in the matter. She had been chosen to be a cog in China's vast sports machine, a multibillion-dollar apparatus designed with one primary goal in mind: churning out Olympic gold medalists.

Today Chen Yun (yun means cloud) trains at the Weifang City Sports School, one of 3,000 state-run athletics academies that consign nearly 400,000 youngsters to a form of athletic servitude. Sitting under the watchful eyes of her coach and a man who identifies himself as the school's "propaganda director," Cloud tells me that weight-lifting is her favorite sport. Any hobbies? I ask. "Weight-lifting," she answers. Anything Cloud likes besides weight-lifting? "Weight-lifting," she repeats. I try again. Cloud glances at the two men near her. Behind them is a poster of Chairman Mao Zedong, the founder of the People's Republic and architect of China's state sports system. "Once, I liked to run in the fields near my village," she begins softly. The propaganda official steps in. "But now, she prefers weight-lifting," he says. "Her goal is to become a star athlete and make China proud." Cloud looks down at her callused hands, which can thrust 35 kg into the air but are now shaking from nerves. "I prefer weight-lifting now," she says. "I want to become a star athlete and make China proud."

[conversationpc]

Did you guys see the story on NBC of the children who go to be trained as acrobats? It was kinda sad. These kids train for hours upon hours every day to learn this stuff. Obviously, they are very good at what they do but they lose their whole freakin' childhood for crying out loud.

[Rick]

Did you guys see the story on NBC of the children who go to be trained as acrobats? It was kinda sad. These kids train for hours upon hours every day to learn this stuff. Obviously, they are very good at what they do but they lose their whole freakin' childhood for crying out loud.

Well, at least they're in great physical condition. Not a bad silver lining.

[conversationpc]

Did you guys see the story on NBC of the children who go to be trained as acrobats? It was kinda sad. These kids train for hours upon hours every day to learn this stuff. Obviously, they are very good at what they do but they lose their whole freakin' childhood for crying out loud.

Well, at least they're in great physical condition. Not a bad silver lining.

Well, some of them are those contortionists, so I'm not sure that is very good for their physical conditioning when they are older.

[journeypower]

So, with that analogy, kids who want to drive, although the age is 16, should be able to drive as long as they REALLY want to. And they'll be able to drink if they REALLY REALLY want to. We wouldn't want to discorage them A Rule is a Rule and it's for a reason... They cheated, lied about it, and are now... busted!

first, driving is not an olympic sport, nor is drinking. it is also not advisable to do acrobatics while driving and in the influence of alcohol. what's your next analogy? sex at the age of 12? please, if you are going to make an analogy, dont go off-topic or you'll miss the point.

[Rick]

Did you guys see the story on NBC of the children who go to be trained as acrobats? It was kinda sad. These kids train for hours upon hours every day to learn this stuff. Obviously, they are very good at what they do but they lose their whole freakin' childhood for crying out loud.

Well, at least they're in great physical condition. Not a bad silver lining.

Well, some of them are those contortionists, so I'm not sure that is very good for their physical conditioning when they are older.

I've wondered if that was good or bad for your body.

[journeypower]

Did you guys see the story on NBC of the children who go to be trained as acrobats? It was kinda sad. These kids train for hours upon hours every day to learn this stuff. Obviously, they are very good at what they do but they lose their whole freakin' childhood for crying out loud.

Well, at least they're in great physical condition. Not a bad silver lining.

Well, some of them are those contortionists, so I'm not sure that is very good for their physical conditioning when they are older.

I've wondered if that was good or bad for your body.

I think that's pretty cool and they have something to do physically refreshing rather than becoming a bum on the streets which does not only rob someone's childhood but life in itself.

[journeypower]

Now that's interesting. Nowhere have I read the mention of age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, nor have I read media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the interent. Seems the only place I've read any of those things is from you.

Here you go.... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 578241.ece

No comment on this Sushi Hunter? Ignorance IS bliss, I guess.

which nation is the supposed hacker from?

[RedWingFan]

Now that's interesting. Nowhere have I read the mention of age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, nor have I read media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the interent. Seems the only place I've read any of those things is from you.

Here you go.... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 578241.ece

No comment on this Sushi Hunter? Ignorance IS bliss, I guess.

which nation is the supposed hacker from?

What's it matter?

[journeypower]

Minimum age rules are also about preventing the exploitation of children. We had some pretty awful things going on in US factories before we passed such laws (like kids working in shafts of coal mines that were too small for adults to fit into). If there are no minimums (and it looks like even with them) younger and younger children will get pushed into arenas intended for adults.

I hear you on this one, but this is a different story. I believe it is common for young children to start to train at an earlier age without coercion, most especially if those children loves to get involved in sports. the exploitation issue is not even a real concern unless the children's welfare is really affected. again, the question of how do people know that children are really exploited?

Great article from Time magazine here. Sad. "without coercion" doesn't much exist in China.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 61,00.html
Here's just a snippet from the article

A year ago, a slender girl called Cloud had no idea she would dedicate her life to lifting disks of iron above her head. Then a stranger came to her remote village in eastern China's Shandong province, took detailed measurements of her shoulder width, thigh length and waist circumference--and announced she would have the honor of serving her motherland as a weight lifter. The then 14-year-old daughter of vegetable farmers had little choice in the matter. She had been chosen to be a cog in China's vast sports machine, a multibillion-dollar apparatus designed with one primary goal in mind: churning out Olympic gold medalists.

Today Chen Yun (yun means cloud) trains at the Weifang City Sports School, one of 3,000 state-run athletics academies that consign nearly 400,000 youngsters to a form of athletic servitude. Sitting under the watchful eyes of her coach and a man who identifies himself as the school's "propaganda director," Cloud tells me that weight-lifting is her favorite sport. Any hobbies? I ask. "Weight-lifting," she answers. Anything Cloud likes besides weight-lifting? "Weight-lifting," she repeats. I try again. Cloud glances at the two men near her. Behind them is a poster of Chairman Mao Zedong, the founder of the People's Republic and architect of China's state sports system. "Once, I liked to run in the fields near my village," she begins softly. The propaganda official steps in. "But now, she prefers weight-lifting," he says. "Her goal is to become a star athlete and make China proud." Cloud looks down at her callused hands, which can thrust 35 kg into the air but are now shaking from nerves. "I prefer weight-lifting now," she says. "I want to become a star athlete and make China proud."

the extremity is something that I would go up against, but I wouldn't be against if the child loves the sport.

[journeypower]

Now that's interesting. Nowhere have I read the mention of age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, nor have I read media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the interent. Seems the only place I've read any of those things is from you.

Here you go.... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 578241.ece

No comment on this Sushi Hunter? Ignorance IS bliss, I guess.

which nation is the supposed hacker from?

What's it matter?

it does matter. if the hacker is comin from a nation which is a medal contender, clearly it's much about winning medals. but if the hacker were from somewhere else, it's much more about fairness. I don't think a person like that would waste his time on things that does not concern his nation's medal haul. I would be happy to see if this supposed hacker would also browse and do some investigative work on other sports and other nations' welfare. thereby, eliminating the issue on partisanship.

[RedWingFan]

Now that's interesting. Nowhere have I read the mention of age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, nor have I read media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the interent. Seems the only place I've read any of those things is from you.

Here you go.... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 578241.ece

No comment on this Sushi Hunter? Ignorance IS bliss, I guess.

which nation is the supposed hacker from?

What's it matter?

it does matter. if the hacker is comin from a nation which is a medal contender, clearly it's much about winning medals. but if the hacker were from somewhere else, it's much more about fairness. I don't think a person like that would waste his time on things that does not concern his nation's medal haul. I would be happy to see if this supposed hacker would also browse and do some investigative work on other sports and other nations' welfare.

So cheating is only cheating if it's called out by a third party?
If someone keys your car and you happen to take video of the vandal doing it. Your video should be inadmissable in court because you took the video? Very stupid logic you use JP.

[Barb]

Now that's interesting. Nowhere have I read the mention of age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, nor have I read media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the interent. Seems the only place I've read any of those things is from you.

Here you go.... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 578241.ece

No comment on this Sushi Hunter? Ignorance IS bliss, I guess.

which nation is the supposed hacker from?

What's it matter?

it does matter. if the hacker is comin from a nation which is a medal contender, clearly it's much about winning medals. but if the hacker were from somewhere else, it's much more about fairness. I don't think a person like that would waste his time on things that does not concern his nation's medal haul. I would be happy to see if this supposed hacker would also browse and do some investigative work on other sports and other nations' welfare. thereby, eliminating the issue on partisanship.

More likely this girl is so obviously not 16 years old he took it upon himself to see what he could find. Your anti American bias is much more evident than this hackers pro American bias.

Besides that, who CARES what his motivation was? He found the goods and the IOC is investigating. If there were nothing to it, they wouldn't waste their time and risk offending the almighty super duper clean and innocent nation of China.

[Sarah]

I don't care for the age limit rule, and I definitely don't think there should be physical limitations for swimmers (or other sports) either. Also, I believe that the Chinese girls are 16. Asians often look younger than they are. Even Shawn Johnson looks younger than 16 to my eyes. Frankly, as long as the judging is fair (which it wasn't in a few events) age does not bother me and I think the rule should be trashed.

I'm gonna love it when the IOC strips them of their medals! Which means we got the all around Gold, and Nastia gets one more gold as well.

This comment, to me, is the perfect example of why it seems like everyone is up in arms about this. It's all about America not winning gold and China possibly looking bad. The only event America really got screwed on was the women's vault (China fell and got gold wtf), most other things were judged decently. But that's taking into account that I do think China's girls are legit...

[The Sushi Hunter]

Did you guys see the story on NBC of the children who go to be trained as acrobats? It was kinda sad. These kids train for hours upon hours every day to learn this stuff. Obviously, they are very good at what they do but they lose their whole freakin' childhood for crying out loud.

Well, at least they're in great physical condition. Not a bad silver lining.

Nice silver lining. That's what I'm happy with.

[The Sushi Hunter]

I'm gonna love it when the IOC strips them of their medals! Which means we got the all around Gold, and Nastia gets one more gold as well.

This comment, to me, is the perfect example of why it seems like everyone is up in arms about this. It's all about America not winning gold and China possibly looking bad. The only event America really got screwed on was the women's vault (China fell and got gold wtf), most other things were judged decently. But that's taking into account that I do think China's girls are legit...

I agree with what you say Sarah. I also feel that the more people drone on about how China is cheating when they win a medal, I start to see this attitude that if America loses, the only reason is because someone else cheated them out of it. And if it is confirmed that China cheated, I still won't give a damn cause I got enough of my own problems to deal with and need tending to.

Could you just imagine what my wife would say if I said to her: "Honey I just can't perform in bed tonight because China won another gold medal the cheating SOB's!"

So basically, I won't let whatever's going on in China effect me.

[Barb]

I agree with what you say Sarah. I also feel that the more people drone on about how China is cheating when they win a medal, I start to see this attitude that if America loses, the only reason is because someone else cheated them out of it. And if it is confirmed that China cheated, I still won't give a damn cause I got enough of my own problems to deal with and need tending to.

China has won 47 gold medals. I don't hear any other controversy except for this one and it's justified. Your point is not valid.

[7 Wishes]

I just cannot believe the IOC is dropping this already, with so many apparently indisputable sources proving three of those "women" are between 13 and 15. This whole thing smells very fishy. I don't think they're trying to investigate at all, for if they did, the Chinese would have already lost "their" gold medals. The IGF and IOC wants this to go away.

[squirt1]

Rules are rules but have never stopped China or Russia outside sports ,so why start now. Those girls weigh less and it is easier to control before they get some extra hip and rear a few yrs later. The group who decides this issue will be as helpful as the U.N.

[Angiekay]

Ok, gymnists have to be 16 before the end of the Olympic year, yet there is a 14 year old diving right now. Are there different rules for different sports?

[Don]

Ok, gymnists have to be 16 before the end of the Olympic year, yet there is a 14 year old diving right now. Are there different rules for different sports?

Yes there are. Gymnast have a higher age to reach because of natural body development being a factor in the event. For example a 60 pound10 year old is less likely to bunny hop than a 17 year old whose developed breast may affect her balance on landing.

[Sarah]

China has won 47 gold medals. I don't hear any other controversy except for this one and it's justified. Your point is not valid.

People SHOULD be pissed about the vault scoring that I mentioned above, but they're not... perhaps everyone feels like the underage thing is more of an outrage because it has to do with the Chinese government...

[journeypower]

Now that's interesting. Nowhere have I read the mention of age charts from previous events listing their ages as 13 and 14, nor have I read media reports covering events mentioning their ages - all of which have now vanished from the interent. Seems the only place I've read any of those things is from you.

Here you go.... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 578241.ece

No comment on this Sushi Hunter? Ignorance IS bliss, I guess.

which nation is the supposed hacker from?

What's it matter?

it does matter. if the hacker is comin from a nation which is a medal contender, clearly it's much about winning medals. but if the hacker were from somewhere else, it's much more about fairness. I don't think a person like that would waste his time on things that does not concern his nation's medal haul. I would be happy to see if this supposed hacker would also browse and do some investigative work on other sports and other nations' welfare.

So cheating is only cheating if it's called out by a third party?
If someone keys your car and you happen to take video of the vandal doing it. Your video should be inadmissable in court because you took the video? Very stupid logic you use JP.

duh! did you even bother to read the last sentence?