OT: Holocaust Deniers... WTF?

[frfksakes]

how do YOU know it to be true?

Because the Nazi bastards were so meticulous in their record keeping, that much of what we know,, much of the footage, even, is from the sick bastards themselves...



And much of that official documentation is available for public viewing by the German government itself,,,

Seems they’d benefit the most from denying everything, yet they not only don’t,, they provide mountains of proof of what happened from the hands of the Nazis themselves..

Seems like a pretty stupid conspiracy theory (that German’s did the OPPOSITE of hide their culpability),, put forth by a bunch of bigoted outsiders

(Pope John Paul had first hand experience himself in Poland,, which makes the Bishop’s denial even more curious)

[nolippin]

It was my understanding that the priest in question was not denying the Holocaust happened, but he stated that he did not believe that mass numbers were gassed in the showers. He based that on some research done by someone I can't remember whose theory was that the construction of the showers would not allow the use of cyanide without gassing everyone around the showers as well...heighth of the chimney, airtightness of the doors, etc.

As difficult to believe as it seems, there are many who have dedicated their lives to disproving it.
Think about it. What do YOU really know about it? And how do YOU know it to be true?


later~

I actually think this may well be the dumbest post I have ever seen on MR and there have been many!

So, tell me what's dumb about it? Tell us how YOU KNOW it's true. The deniers will tell you that everything we see on TV and read in books is pure propaganda. They'll tell you that the WWII liberators were given a story and threatened with death to stick to it. They'll tell you that it's a vast racial sympathy conspiracy. They'll tell you a lot of things. And really think about it - all most of us know is what we've been told, no? Unless we were there, we really don't know.

Now then, what I believe is nobody's business. But I will say I've been around the world a few times and I've seen many things. I also think that most Holocaust deniers are whackjobs, however, some of them do make good arguments. And, I've read, some of them are even Jewish. Do some research.

Btw, did you know that there are Pearl Harbor deniers too? Just like the 9/11 theorists, they believe that it was all staged or allowed simply to make war. Conspiracy theorists and non-believers are everywhere...and they're not all stupid either.


later~

Regarding the 911 thing, I've actually heard stuff in the past that made me go "hmm", but nobody's saying it didn't happen, just 'why?' and 'how?'.

But there are millions of photos out there of the concentration camps, the bodies, etc. That's in the days before photoshop, etc. so I'm not sure how that evidence can be challenged.

[WIX]

SETTING ALL THIS ASIDE.

jOSEPH sMITH WAS the only true prophet and the golden plates were real.

Having several wifes and living the mormon dream is the only way to go.

all other religions are False, It is the Mormons that will prosper and be lifted up when our good lord and father shows up. All other will burn in hell.

time to still join and sign up. repent and pay 10 percent of your income and you will be saved.

[artist4perry]

It was my understanding that the priest in question was not denying the Holocaust happened, but he stated that he did not believe that mass numbers were gassed in the showers. He based that on some research done by someone I can't remember whose theory was that the construction of the showers would not allow the use of cyanide without gassing everyone around the showers as well...heighth of the chimney, airtightness of the doors, etc.

As difficult to believe as it seems, there are many who have dedicated their lives to disproving it.
Think about it. What do YOU really know about it? And how do YOU know it to be true?


later~

I actually think this may well be the dumbest post I have ever seen on MR and there have been many!

So, tell me what's dumb about it? Tell us how YOU KNOW it's true. The deniers will tell you that everything we see on TV and read in books is pure propaganda. They'll tell you that the WWII liberators were given a story and threatened with death to stick to it. They'll tell you that it's a vast racial sympathy conspiracy. They'll tell you a lot of things. And really think about it - all most of us know is what we've been told, no? Unless we were there, we really don't know.

Now then, what I believe is nobody's business. But I will say I've been around the world a few times and I've seen many things. I also think that most Holocaust deniers are whackjobs, however, some of them do make good arguments. And, I've read, some of them are even Jewish. Do some research.

Btw, did you know that there are Pearl Harbor deniers too? Just like the 9/11 theorists, they believe that it was all staged or allowed simply to make war. Conspiracy theorists and non-believers are everywhere...and they're not all stupid either.


later~

Regarding the 911 thing, I've actually heard stuff in the past that made me go "hmm", but nobody's saying it didn't happen, just 'why?' and 'how?'.

But there are millions of photos out there of the concentration camps, the bodies, etc. That's in the days before photoshop, etc. so I'm not sure how that evidence can be challenged.

Been there........Germans give tours there........no photoshop, etc. The Germans that give the tours acknowlege it. Strikes me as a denial problem. If you want to beleive something never happened you develope a theory and try and support it. Many times fudging half truths to support it. What about the German people who talked to me on the street about it, old men with tears in their eyes, telling me their stories. Sorry I beleive them. They were they eyes of horror and sorrow.

[separate_wayz]

There are a number of credible academic works about the extent of the Holocaust. Some of them are (with estimates of Holocaust deaths):

Raul Hilberg, The Destruction of the European Jews (1992): 5,100,000
Lucy Dawidowicz, The War Against the Jews 1933-1945 (1961): 5,933,000
Gerald Reitlinger, The Final Solution: The Attempt to Exterminate the Jews of Europe 1939-1945 (1968), 4,204,400 - 4,575,400
Martin Gilbert, Atlas of the Holocaust (1982): 5,750,000
Israel Gutman and Robert Rozett, Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1990): 5,596,029 - 5,860,129

But don't forget: one of the best sources of data on the Holocaust was the Nazis themselves. They kept generally meticulous records of people they murdered, considering the context. These records have been subject to academic review as well and have been found to be robust.

We can respectfully disagree on the exact route that Francis Drake took to circumnavigate the globe. But that doesn't mean the Earth is flat .....

[jrnyman28]

First off, my understanding was that most of the deniers are not German, they are from the Middle East. (I don't keep up well enough to know what race, ethnicity, religion, whatever).

Second, arkansas has not made any post stating belief or denial. He seems to be playing the role of Devil's Advocate. So maybe we can lay off the "stupid post" replies and what looks to be growing anger pointed at him?

[artist4perry]

First off, my understanding was that most of the deniers are not German, they are from the Middle East. (I don't keep up well enough to know what race, ethnicity, religion, whatever).

Second, arkansas has not made any post stating belief or denial. He seems to be playing the role of Devil's Advocate. So maybe we can lay off the "stupid post" replies and what looks to be growing anger pointed at him?

Maybe your not meaning me, but just to clarify...this answer was not in response to anything Arkansas ever said. He said he would not say, and I respect that. Not saying is not saying, either for or against. But some have brought up the theories of the denials.......I was giving facts I know to answer the question. No one being blamed or put down.

[jrnyman28]

Definately not pointed to anyone specific. Just noting that some posts are starting to sound angry and some are insulting arkansas's post.

[artist4perry]

Definately not pointed to anyone specific. Just noting that some posts are starting to sound angry and some are insulting arkansas's post.

Hey he and I reign from common country. We don't always agree, but I have respect for him. No problems then!

[nolippin]

I don't believe that anyone has denied that atrocities toward the Jewish people happened. I was addressing what I heard the priest say myself in an interview I saw with him.

He did not seem to me to be denying the acts...but questioning how they happened.

[brywool]

I don't believe that anyone has denied that atrocities toward the Jewish people happened. I was addressing what I heard the priest say myself in an interview I saw with him.

He did not seem to me to be denying the acts...but questioning how they happened.

He was denying how it happened (the mechanics of it) based on some paper (that was debunked). But I thought he was also denying the rest of it as well. I could be wrong there. Still, there are many that say it never happened. In years to come, there will be those saying that 911 never happened, etc.

[Sarah]

In a Sociology class we had to watch a movie about one of the guys who went to Auschwitz and other places and took samples of the walls and had them tested, and decided there was no chemical evidence that they'd been used for extermination. Although the people who tested the samples later shot the reults down because they didn't think they were accurate, that was the first time I sort of wondered about Holocaust denial. I mean, it's pretty impossible for a consiracy to be that massive, but... never know, I guess. If people can believe dinosaur bones are planted by scientists, people can believe this was a lie.

If anyone saw that movie Religulous, they interviewed a Rabbi who thinks Jews actually deserved the Holocaust and more, I guess due to ongoing Biblical punishments. Off topic but also interesting.

And it sounds like Arkansas is mostly playing devil's advocate, for those of you who are horrified.

[Don]

There have been a lot of Germans who were taken through the camps by the allies when the war ended so they could see what was going on as many of the German populace were kept in the dark by Hitler. They have no problem saying what happened there was fact, so I think them admitting to something that would cause ireperable harm to the image of their nation is proof enough of what happened there.

[Arkansas]

Nice to see that at least two in this thread can read what I wrote.
I never gave a definitive answer to anything. I merely asked a few questions.

Lots of great, albeit predictable, replies though.
I was incorrectly villified. And for what? Asking you to think?

Assume nothing. Question everything. Find your own truths.


later~

[7 Wishes]

I lived in Germany for 8 years in the 70's and 80's. The younger generation wanted to know the truth. Their teachers were stuck in the middle; the grandfathers had been in the Luftwaffe, army, and even the SS.

[7 Wishes]

SETTING ALL THIS ASIDE.

jOSEPH sMITH WAS the only true prophet and the golden plates were real.

Having several wifes and living the mormon dream is the only way to go.

all other religions are False, It is the Mormons that will prosper and be lifted up when our good lord and father shows up. All other will burn in hell.

time to still join and sign up. repent and pay 10 percent of your income and you will be saved.

LMFAO

[la michelona]

Places I've been, people I've met. . .

Dachau
http://www.kz-gedenkstaette-dachau.de/index-e.html

the Hogan's Heroes guy
http://www.robertclary.com/index.tpl

Here in Houston
http://www.hmh.org/

[separate_wayz]

First off, my understanding was that most of the deniers are not German, they are from the Middle East. (I don't keep up well enough to know what race, ethnicity, religion, whatever).

Second, arkansas has not made any post stating belief or denial. He seems to be playing the role of Devil's Advocate. So maybe we can lay off the "stupid post" replies and what looks to be growing anger pointed at him?

Check out www.memri.org (The Middle East Media Research Institute). That organization posts audio, video, news articles, and speeches from news media (usually state-controlled) in the Middle East. MEMRI's "value-added" is that the Middle Eastern media files are often posted in the original language with translation. The main Holocaust-denial seems to come from Iran and Lebanon (although many political leaders and clerics from all over the Middle East engage in it). For Iran, Holocaust denial serves the two-fold state interest of (1) denying the legitimacy of the state of Israel and (2) demonization of Jews and Israel as a precondition of eventual genocide against them.

[conversationpc]

People who deny the holocaust are flying in the face of nearly insurmountable evidence...Tons of video footage, pictures, eyewitness testimony from various sources, etc., etc. If this were to go to court, based on the evidence, it would be proven true far beyond a reasonable doubt.

[StyxCollector]

In a Sociology class we had to watch a movie about one of the guys who went to Auschwitz and other places and took samples of the walls and had them tested, and decided there was no chemical evidence that they'd been used for extermination. Although the people who tested the samples later shot the reults down because they didn't think they were accurate, that was the first time I sort of wondered about Holocaust denial. I mean, it's pretty impossible for a consiracy to be that massive, but... never know, I guess. If people can believe dinosaur bones are planted by scientists, people can believe this was a lie.

If anyone saw that movie Religulous, they interviewed a Rabbi who thinks Jews actually deserved the Holocaust and more, I guess due to ongoing Biblical punishments. Off topic but also interesting.

And it sounds like Arkansas is mostly playing devil's advocate, for those of you who are horrified.

The Nazis as the war was ending blew up and tried to destroy the ovens and gas chambers at many of the camps. The problem was it was all well documented elsewhere. It's like trying to close the gate after the animals get out.

That Rabbi is a kook. No Jew I know - including myself - thinks Jews deserved to be killed en masse.

Oh and there are plenty of American Holocaust deniers. Most I've seen/read are anti-Semitic, so to say that this isn't tied into some sort of hatred of Jews is just off base.

[Eric]

Speaking of Nazi Germany......

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123431418276770899.html

[FishinMagician]

As difficult to believe as it seems, there are many who have dedicated their lives to disproving it.
Think about it. What do YOU really know about it? And how do YOU know it to be true?


later~

I actually think this may well be the dumbest post I have ever seen on MR and there have been many!

not really . no one has really answered the question. you read books and rely on other's "research" but do you do your own research?

Not knocking anyones statements......... some people may be curious, or not in the know.
I went to Germany, seen the places where things happened, talked to people who lived then on the German side........is that good? How much research do you need? Do we have to doubt the Civil War?

thats plenty

[FishinMagician]

As difficult to believe as it seems, there are many who have dedicated their lives to disproving it.
Think about it. What do YOU really know about it? And how do YOU know it to be true?


later~

I actually think this may well be the dumbest post I have ever seen on MR and there have been many!

not really . no one has really answered the question. you read books and rely on other's "research" but do you do your own research?

Ladies and gentlemen I give you number three on the list!

ya the sexy list