So.....

[kgdjpubs]

I think Revelation was a mistake....even if it was successful and made them tons of money. It was not the future Neal wanted...and therefore, it really killed any FUTURE success.

The other point is, if they had continued down the path of Revelation, I doubt Neal would have ever been happy. Playing a bunch of pop songs is not what Neal wants to do. It would have been like continuing down the path of ROR. It's just not musically fulfilling for Neal. He would have been looking for another Soul Sirkus. Maybe he would be in Chickenfoot.

Revelation and the pop songs may not be where Neal wants to be, but you can't totally abandon that sound, and still call it Journey without alienating the fans. If you leave it to Cain, you end up with Revelation. Leave it to Neal, you get Eclipse. Here's where you need a strong-willed producer to take over and find the common ground between them. Maybe the best option is a 60/40 split between the classic Journey sound and a slightly more restrained (read: producer-involved) Eclipse sound. Do the pop-rock Journey songs that the fanbase wants, do the ballads that the fanbase wants, but also give Neal a bit of the hard rock and slightly progressive stuff that he wants, but with a "Journey chorus" to blend it in and tie everything together. Really, that isn't too far off from Frontiers, is it??

[The_Noble_Cause]

Monker,
Neal was pandering to the "modern" crowd with detuning and it sucked.

Not sure how any fan can seriously think that. Eclipse is the first time in forever that the band was not going by-the-numbers and tried to create something forged from a place of genuine creative artistry (for better or worse). It is not a case of the band selling out or pandering. It's the exact opposite. Alot of 70/80s groups try to appease the masses (Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, etc) doing rap or country cross-overs. That's not the case here. Even the most commercial material (Anything is Possible) has a progressive edge and is not radio friendly. I really think the band just built on what they tried to do with Red 13, only the songs are a little more melodic.

Eclipse was pure pandering to the current flavor of the day.

Eclipse is probably the least commercial and inaccessible album since the Rolie/Tickner, early Perry stuff.

[Gideon]

So.... apparently someone was drunk, because according to setlist.com Journey opened their show at the Minnesota State Fair on Sept. 1st with Faith in the Heartland.

[JohnH]

I like City of Hope and think Eclipse is great. Then again, this board, they could release Escape and most here would hate it!

[steveo777]

I like City of Hope and think Eclipse is great. Then again, this board, they could release Escape and most here would hate it!

This board does not represent anything close to the Journey fan base. Look at the ticket sales, not the album sales. They're caught in a trap. Nobody knows any music, en large, that is not played on the radio. Journey is not getting on the radio, except for classic rock stations. Those stations are committed to the classics. Steve Augeri, Jeff Scott Soto & Arnel Pineda, as good as they may be, are not classics. Time may change that, but for now, they are not going to sell albums. Once we realize that, we can also understand that Revelation had phenomenal results.

[Rick]

I like City of Hope and think Eclipse is great. Then again, this board, they could release Escape and most here would hate it!

Agreed. There's too much hate for people to realize that they're still making great music.

[slucero]

every time I see that Pryor avatar I think of this..

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/f02d0b ... -from-nino

[Michigan Girl]

I like City of Hope and think Eclipse is great. Then again, this board, they could release Escape and most here would hate it!

This board does not represent anything close to the Journey fan base. Look at the ticket sales, not the album sales. They're caught in a trap. Nobody knows any music, en large, that is not played on the radio. Journey is not getting on the radio, except for classic rock stations. Those stations are committed to the classics. Steve Augeri, Jeff Scott Soto & Arnel Pineda, as good as they may be, are not classics. Time may change that, but for now, they are not going to sell albums. Once we realize that, we can also understand that Revelation had phenomenal results.

They're committed to the classics live, as well ...so, what is your point?!?
The majority of the current fan base is about the classics ...show us proof
of anything else. The live shows are their opportunity to promote those tunes and the
"J-boyz" show as much interest in promoting those tunes as the ticket buying public
shows in hearing them ...hmmmm?!?

"FANS" would know the tunes because they would be buying them if they liked them ...period.

[Gideon]

I like City of Hope and think Eclipse is great. Then again, this board, they could release Escape and most here would hate it!

Agreed. There's too much hate for people to realize that they're still making great music.

Nah, not hate. Sure, a lot of the posters around here are bitter, hateful, and spiteful about all things Journey, but if the general public shared that sentiment, I doubt they'd go to the concerts.

I think for the most part, it's nothing more than narrow-mindedness.

[The Sushi Hunter]

Arnel being brought into the band did add a new culture to the fanbase. This new culture does consist of large numbers. I'm sure the popularity of these "classic" Journey tunes has been rekindled by the help of this new culture that Arnel attracted. Of course this new addition to the fanbase of Journey is Asians, particularily younger Filipinos throughout the world, along with many of their young friends.

If this isn't so, then lets say AP never joined the band and Journey still released another cd that consisted of the classics. Without this new culture added into the overall Journey fanbase that Arnel has attracted to the band since joining in late '07, how would such a release of Journey classics have sold?

[Gideon]

Arnel being brought into the band did add a new culture to the fanbase. This new culture does consist of large numbers. I'm sure the popularity of these "classic" Journey tunes has been rekindled by the help of this new culture that Arnel attracted. Of course this new addition to the fanbase of Journey is Asians, particularily younger Filipinos throughout the world, along with many of their young friends.

If this isn't so, then lets say AP never joined the band and Journey still released another cd that consisted of the classics. Without this new culture added into the overall Journey fanbase that Arnel has attracted to the band since joining in late '07, how would such a release of Journey classics have sold?

I'm pretty sure Don has posted some convincing evidence suggesting the Pinoy factor has been minimal in Journey's recent commercial success.

[Michigan Girl]

I like City of Hope and think Eclipse is great. Then again, this board, they could release Escape and most here would hate it!

Agreed. There's too much hate for people to realize that they're still making great music.

Nah, not hate. Sure, a lot of the posters around here are bitter, hateful, and spiteful about all things Journey, but if the general public shared that sentiment, I doubt they'd go to the concerts.
I think for the most part, it's nothing more than narrow-mindedness.

What would make you come to such a conclusion? The bitter, hateful and spiteful posters around here still attend.
You know, just like the rest of us, why the general public attends, it's the same reason w/LB, same w/Pat, the general
public wants the classics, it's the diehards who buy the new music...you're
pulling a steveo now.

[The Sushi Hunter]

What's the evidence if I may ask?

I bought a handful of Revelation albums from Walmart when it first went on sale, to send to many of my friends who remembered AP from the good ol' days in the Philippines. I also purchased the Japanese release of the same album since it has the extra track on it that the American release does not. Now I'm smart enough to realize that me alone isn't any type of influence on Journey sales or popularity. However I am also smart enough to realize that I wasn't the only one who did what I did in regards to purchasing up the album because AP was on the cd.

[Michigan Girl]

Arnel being brought into the band did add a new culture to the fanbase. This new culture does consist of large numbers. I'm sure the popularity of these "classic" Journey tunes has been rekindled by the help of this new culture that Arnel attracted. Of course this new addition to the fanbase of Journey is Asians, particularily younger Filipinos throughout the world, along with many of their young friends.

If this isn't so, then lets say AP never joined the band and Journey still released another cd that consisted of the classics. Without this new culture added into the overall Journey fanbase that Arnel has attracted to the band since joining in late '07, how would such a release of Journey classics have sold?

I believed this too, however, that large new fanbase wasn't good enough to make
Eclipse a success ...I firmly believed that those people alone would make the numbers huge, they proved me wrong.

[Gideon]

I like City of Hope and think Eclipse is great. Then again, this board, they could release Escape and most here would hate it!

Agreed. There's too much hate for people to realize that they're still making great music.

Nah, not hate. Sure, a lot of the posters around here are bitter, hateful, and spiteful about all things Journey, but if the general public shared that sentiment, I doubt they'd go to the concerts.
I think for the most part, it's nothing more than narrow-mindedness.

What would make you come to such a conclusion? The bitter, hateful and spiteful posters around here still attend.
You know, just like the rest of us, why the general public attends, it's the same reason w/LB, same w/Pat, the general
public wants the classics, it's the diehards who buy the new music...you're
pulling a steveo now.

Cool.
That has nothing to do with my point. To recap: JohnH said Eclipse is great and Journey could re-release Escape and people around here would hate it; Rick agreed and again attributed it to hatred; I disagreed and said if people hated Journey, they wouldn't go see them live, and that the unpopularity of the new material owes more to narrow-mindedness/disinterest than hatred.

I never suggested that the general public wants anything other than the classics.

Maybe you should try reading carefully instead of reading like a Loon.

[Michigan Girl]

I like City of Hope and think Eclipse is great. Then again, this board, they could release Escape and most here would hate it!

Agreed. There's too much hate for people to realize that they're still making great music.

Nah, not hate. Sure, a lot of the posters around here are bitter, hateful, and spiteful about all things Journey, but if the general public shared that sentiment, I doubt they'd go to the concerts.
I think for the most part, it's nothing more than narrow-mindedness.

What would make you come to such a conclusion? The bitter, hateful and spiteful posters around here still attend.
You know, just like the rest of us, why the general public attends, it's the same reason w/LB, same w/Pat, the general
public wants the classics, it's the diehards who buy the new music...you're
pulling a steveo now.

Cool.
That has nothing to do with my point. To recap: JohnH said Eclipse is great and Journey could re-release Escape and people around here would hate it; Rick agreed and again attributed it to hatred; I disagreed and said if people hated Journey, they wouldn't go see them live, and that the unpopularity of the new material owes more to narrow-mindedness/disinterest than hatred.

I never suggested that the general public wants anything other than the classics.

Maybe you should try reading carefully instead of reading like a Loon.

And I'm saying the bitter, hateful people around here DO attend the concerts so why wouldn't the general public ?!?

[Gideon]

And I'm saying the bitter, hateful people around here DO attend the concerts so why wouldn't the general public ?!?

Who spends substantial time, money, and energy to willingly financially support someone/s they hate and show all signs of enjoying it (smiles, cheers, applause)?!?

RETARDS

[Michigan Girl]

And I'm saying the bitter, hateful people around here DO attend the concerts so why wouldn't the general public ?!?

Who spends substantial time, money, and energy to willingly financially support someone/s they hate and show all signs of enjoying it (smiles, cheers, applause)?!?

RETARDS

There is a huge difference between hating someone and being hateful ...I have been,
what I consider, hateful on many occasions when I have expressed my grievances
concerning this band. I don't hate the band nor do I hate a person in the band.
I know that if you had an opportunity to go see SP w/Journey after all the hateful
remarks you've made about him, your retarded ass would be there in a heartbeat.

To answer your question ...I don't know?!?

[The Sushi Hunter]

Arnel being brought into the band did add a new culture to the fanbase. This new culture does consist of large numbers. I'm sure the popularity of these "classic" Journey tunes has been rekindled by the help of this new culture that Arnel attracted. Of course this new addition to the fanbase of Journey is Asians, particularily younger Filipinos throughout the world, along with many of their young friends.

If this isn't so, then lets say AP never joined the band and Journey still released another cd that consisted of the classics. Without this new culture added into the overall Journey fanbase that Arnel has attracted to the band since joining in late '07, how would such a release of Journey classics have sold?

I believed this too, however, that large new fanbase wasn't good enough to make
Eclipse a success ...I firmly believed that those people alone would make the numbers huge, they proved me wrong.

Your probably right. I know in my own situation I've not bought the Eclipse album, not even heard any of the songs on it.

For me and the guys who knew of AP through my own personal dealings with him, what made the Revelation album so unique and important was it was the album that AP debuted with Journey. Any album after that first one is going to have to be something very special to be on the same level or even above what Revelation meant to people like me.

[Gideon]

There is a huge difference between hating someone and being hateful

Hateful simply means to be "full of hate" according to THE DICTIONARY. To recap again, I said that if the general public shared the sentiments of bitter, spiteful, hateful about all things Journey-- that is to say, if they, too, were "bitter, spiteful, hateful (to be full of hate) about all things Journey"-- they would not go see them live. The lack of success for new material for Journey, Loverboy, and most bands of their era owes more to DISINTEREST/NARROW-MINDEDNESS than hate.

Could you possibly offer something RELEVANT to what I said? As for the rest:

I have been, what I consider, hateful on many occasions when I have expressed my grievances
concerning this band.

REALLY?!?

I don't hate the band nor do I hate a person in the band.

LOL

I know that if you had an opportunity to go see SP w/Journey after all the hateful
remarks you've made about him, your retarded ass would be there in a heartbeat.

Unless I would be magically transported back to 1983 in this scenario, I WOULD be retarded to see SP w/Journey.

To answer your question ...I don't know?!?

Should be your MOTTO.

[Pelata]

Monker,
Neal was pandering to the "modern" crowd with detuning and it sucked.

Not sure how any fan can seriously think that. Eclipse is the first time in forever that the band was not going by-the-numbers and tried to create something forged from a place of genuine creative artistry (for better or worse). It is not a case of the band selling out or pandering. It's the exact opposite. Alot of 70/80s groups try to appease the masses (Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, etc) doing rap or country cross-overs. That's not the case here. Even the most commercial material (Anything is Possible) has a progressive edge and is not radio friendly. I really think the band just built on what they tried to do with Red 13, only the songs are a little more melodic.

Eclipse was pure pandering to the current flavor of the day.

Eclipse is probably the least commercial and inaccessible album since the Rolie/Tickner, early Perry stuff.

Agreed...Eclipse was anything BUT commercial...

[The Sushi Hunter]

I hate operation "Quote, Cut & Paste".

[Gideon]

Monker,
Neal was pandering to the "modern" crowd with detuning and it sucked.

Not sure how any fan can seriously think that. Eclipse is the first time in forever that the band was not going by-the-numbers and tried to create something forged from a place of genuine creative artistry (for better or worse). It is not a case of the band selling out or pandering. It's the exact opposite. Alot of 70/80s groups try to appease the masses (Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, etc) doing rap or country cross-overs. That's not the case here. Even the most commercial material (Anything is Possible) has a progressive edge and is not radio friendly. I really think the band just built on what they tried to do with Red 13, only the songs are a little more melodic.

Eclipse was pure pandering to the current flavor of the day.

Eclipse is probably the least commercial and inaccessible album since the Rolie/Tickner, early Perry stuff.

Agreed...Eclipse was anything BUT commercial...

TBF wasn't either, but did extremely well all things considered. Behold the power of P.R., the promise of an anticipated reunion, and the allure of the days before the digital age fell into full swing.

[Michigan Girl]

Could you possibly offer something RELEVANT to what I said?

Nothing you said was relevant ...
you were merely drumming up business ...your debate skills are suffering.

[Gideon]

Could you possibly offer something RELEVANT to what I said?

Nothing you said was relevant ...
you were merely drumming up business ...your debate skills are suffering.

Concession ACCEPTED.

[The Sushi Hunter]

Actually the drumming up business and debate skills are pretty good, as they are with others on this forum. It's something else that's suffering and I'm not so sure I've been able to put my finger on what exacty that is as of yet.

[Michigan Girl]

Could you possibly offer something RELEVANT to what I said?

Nothing you said was relevant ...
you were merely drumming up business ...your debate skills are suffering.

Concession ACCEPTED.

Well, you know, I need something to work with around here. You are too tranparent ...
If you know what I mean.

[Monker]

I like City of Hope and think Eclipse is great. Then again, this board, they could release Escape and most here would hate it!

Agreed. There's too much hate for people to realize that they're still making great music.

Nah, not hate. Sure, a lot of the posters around here are bitter, hateful, and spiteful about all things Journey, but if the general public shared that sentiment, I doubt they'd go to the concerts.
I think for the most part, it's nothing more than narrow-mindedness.

What would make you come to such a conclusion? The bitter, hateful and spiteful posters around here still attend.
You know, just like the rest of us, why the general public attends, it's the same reason w/LB, same w/Pat, the general
public wants the classics, it's the diehards who buy the new music...you're
pulling a steveo now.

Not sure if I'm counted in this category, but unless Journey drops ticket prices and ILAA, forget it...I can't justify spending the time on money on this band. It's just not worth it to me.

[Aaron]

Dude, I think exactly that and here's why. The detuned, drop D, and full step down with C on the low string gives songs a very dark, more evil tone. That is not Journey and has never been Journey. Journey has been soring tenor vocals with songs in keys the provide a positive vibe. Eclipse was not that. Eclipse had detuned guitars giving the music a very dark tone. If you want a dark tone, go listen to another band. This is not Journey's brand and I don't think it is now. I think they missed the mark with their core audience that is looking for a positive tune. Journey has been, and continues to be my favorite band. However, Eclipse was a detuned POS that sucked. I listened to City of Hope for the first time and I was so pissed I turned the cd off. The key of the song does not agree with the message I think the are trying to deliver. It was pandering plain and simple. Eclipse was a turd and has zero relevance a year after it's release.

Eclipse may have been a non-commercial cd but it was pandering. Why else would Journey detune to such levels with their lyrics sending a different message? It's either pandering or incompetence. Either way. it's unacceptable. Go listen to Night Ranger's latest and tell me it's not killer.

Monker,
Neal was pandering to the "modern" crowd with detuning and it sucked.

Not sure how any fan can seriously think that. Eclipse is the first time in forever that the band was not going by-the-numbers and tried to create something forged from a place of genuine creative artistry (for better or worse). It is not a case of the band selling out or pandering. It's the exact opposite. Alot of 70/80s groups try to appease the masses (Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, etc) doing rap or country cross-overs. That's not the case here. Even the most commercial material (Anything is Possible) has a progressive edge and is not radio friendly. I really think the band just built on what they tried to do with Red 13, only the songs are a little more melodic.

Eclipse was pure pandering to the current flavor of the day.

Eclipse is probably the least commercial and inaccessible album since the Rolie/Tickner, early Perry stuff.

[Michigan Girl]

I like City of Hope and think Eclipse is great. Then again, this board, they could release Escape and most here would hate it!

Agreed. There's too much hate for people to realize that they're still making great music.

Nah, not hate. Sure, a lot of the posters around here are bitter, hateful, and spiteful about all things Journey, but if the general public shared that sentiment, I doubt they'd go to the concerts.
I think for the most part, it's nothing more than narrow-mindedness.

What would make you come to such a conclusion? The bitter, hateful and spiteful posters around here still attend.
You know, just like the rest of us, why the general public attends, it's the same reason w/LB, same w/Pat, the general
public wants the classics, it's the diehards who buy the new music...you're
pulling a steveo now.

Not sure if I'm counted in this category, but unless Journey drops ticket prices and ILAA, forget it...I can't justify spending the time on money on this band. It's just not worth it to me.

For one, you are a non-retard ...I would just call you a
normal American consumer who prioritizes his spending habits. I, too, refused
to give this band one dime of my concert budget for 2012 after the
sound disaster they offered up in '11. Hateful as that may sound, (although,
not textbook definition) I don't think they missed my $$$ one little bit.

My mother, on the other hand, saw them in Mount Pleasant (minus Pat) and she
thought they sounded pretty good in '12...