Has Generations stood the test of time?

[SF-Dano]

Arrival & Eclipse (tie - depends on mood which one I'd rather listen too)
Revelation
Generations
Red 13

[kgdjpubs]

Pick a producer to tie it all together, and you end up with a very good album.

They had a producer. Kevin Elson (also their road sound guy at the time) produced it. Clearly he lost something from the days of producing Escape and Frontiers.

ok, let me rephrase.....someone OUTSIDE of Journey who is willing/able to make hard choices and not cave in. ie...you need someone who says that everyone singing lead is a really bad idea for a Journey album. Journey, at this point for writing is not Cain and Schon, it's Cain/Schon--and there's a difference between those two. You need someone who can find "Journey" out of two separate styles.

Some choices just make you scratch your head... with A-material already in short supply, why on earth leave Never Too Late off the initial domestic release? Huge chorus, huge Journey song.

If I had to guess, that was a management/label decision, not a producer. Still, it's a mind boggling decision. By far, one of the best songs on the album.

[The_Noble_Cause]

If I had to guess, that was a management/label decision, not a producer. Still, it's a mind boggling decision. By far, one of the best songs on the album.

True, but since breaking free of Sony, micro-decisions like track sequencing are now in the bands' hands. "Generations" wasn't even on a label until later, when the now defunct Sanctuary label picked it up. I think this is just further proof that the band leader (Neal) was seriously MIA.

[kgdjpubs]

If I had to guess, that was a management/label decision, not a producer. Still, it's a mind boggling decision. By far, one of the best songs on the album.

True, but since breaking free of Sony, micro-decisions like track sequencing are now in the bands' hands. "Generations" wasn't even on a label until later, when the now defunct Sanctuary label picked it up. I think this is just further proof that the band leader (Neal) was seriously MIA.

correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they on Frontiers at the time of original release for the UK distribution? I remember hearing The Place in Your Heart on the Frontiers web radio station as one of the first songs (maybe THE first song) I heard from the album. Given the sound of It's Never Too Late, it's no real surprise that the label would be gaga over that song, and it ended up being the UK bonus track.

[RedWingFan]

Yes it has stood the test of time. The finish on my end table is still flawless with no condensation water damage.

[Michigan Girl]

[The_Noble_Cause]

If I had to guess, that was a management/label decision, not a producer. Still, it's a mind boggling decision. By far, one of the best songs on the album.

True, but since breaking free of Sony, micro-decisions like track sequencing are now in the bands' hands. "Generations" wasn't even on a label until later, when the now defunct Sanctuary label picked it up. I think this is just further proof that the band leader (Neal) was seriously MIA.

correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they on Frontiers at the time of original release for the UK distribution? I remember hearing The Place in Your Heart on the Frontiers web radio station as one of the first songs (maybe THE first song) I heard from the album. Given the sound of It's Never Too Late, it's no real surprise that the label would be gaga over that song, and it ended up being the UK bonus track.

Don't know. I'm talking about the domestic release, as Journey is an American band. Herbie didn't put out Escape and say "Hold off on that Don't Stop Believin track, let's release that only on foreign import vinyls for our fans in mainland China." Bad decision. Do not care whose call it was.

[kgdjpubs]

If I had to guess, that was a management/label decision, not a producer. Still, it's a mind boggling decision. By far, one of the best songs on the album.

True, but since breaking free of Sony, micro-decisions like track sequencing are now in the bands' hands. "Generations" wasn't even on a label until later, when the now defunct Sanctuary label picked it up. I think this is just further proof that the band leader (Neal) was seriously MIA.

correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they on Frontiers at the time of original release for the UK distribution? I remember hearing The Place in Your Heart on the Frontiers web radio station as one of the first songs (maybe THE first song) I heard from the album. Given the sound of It's Never Too Late, it's no real surprise that the label would be gaga over that song, and it ended up being the UK bonus track.

Don't know. I'm talking about the domestic release, as Journey is an American band. Herbie didn't put out Escape and say "Hold off on that Don't Stop Believin track, let's release that only on foreign import vinyls for our fans in mainland China." Bad decision. Do not care whose call it was.

In effect, that's exactly what happened with Frontiers when Only the Young and Ask the Lonely were pulled at the last minute. Soundtracks, bonus tracks, it's all the same thing, and makes the regular album weaker. Countries have been getting bonus tracks for years. Japan has gotten a ton of them (some of them defintiely worth inclusion on the album), USA has gotten a few (Maybe Tonight from Magnum's Wings of Heaven release comes to mind), and now the latest trend is to give Itunes/Target/Walmart bonus songs.

Either way, to the best of my knowledge, the European version of the album (aka the one distributed by Frontiers Records) was the first version that you could physically purchase....as opposed to receiving at a concert. I agree that it's a poor decision, but since when have the labels been into fairness for the fans?

[The_Noble_Cause]

If I had to guess, that was a management/label decision, not a producer. Still, it's a mind boggling decision. By far, one of the best songs on the album.

True, but since breaking free of Sony, micro-decisions like track sequencing are now in the bands' hands. "Generations" wasn't even on a label until later, when the now defunct Sanctuary label picked it up. I think this is just further proof that the band leader (Neal) was seriously MIA.

correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they on Frontiers at the time of original release for the UK distribution? I remember hearing The Place in Your Heart on the Frontiers web radio station as one of the first songs (maybe THE first song) I heard from the album. Given the sound of It's Never Too Late, it's no real surprise that the label would be gaga over that song, and it ended up being the UK bonus track.

Don't know. I'm talking about the domestic release, as Journey is an American band. Herbie didn't put out Escape and say "Hold off on that Don't Stop Believin track, let's release that only on foreign import vinyls for our fans in mainland China." Bad decision. Do not care whose call it was.

In effect, that's exactly what happened with Frontiers when Only the Young and Ask the Lonely were pulled at the last minute. Soundtracks, bonus tracks, it's all the same thing, and makes the regular album weaker. Countries have been getting bonus tracks for years. Japan has gotten a ton of them (some of them defintiely worth inclusion on the album), USA has gotten a few (Maybe Tonight from Magnum's Wings of Heaven release comes to mind), and now the latest trend is to give Itunes/Target/Walmart bonus songs.

Either way, to the best of my knowledge, the European version of the album (aka the one distributed by Frontiers Records) was the first version that you could physically purchase....as opposed to receiving at a concert. I agree that it's a poor decision, but since when have the labels been into fairness for the fans?

Frontiers had alot of strong material on it, even without OTY and ASL. Not so with Gens. Also, during the recording of Frontiers, that band was on a label. Generations was their first attempt since Red 13 at going independent (at least in the US). Neal finally asserts creative control and decides to leave off the best track from the album. Brilliant!

[jrnyfan@nc.rr.com]

I sat about 24th row at last night's Greensboro show... they opened with Faith in the Heartland. It didn't go over well.
I think i was the only one singing along in the entire place.

On a side note, Keep on runnin, mother father, and never walk away were in the set. Nice to hear a LITTLE variety, including heartland.

[stevew2]

I did really like Faith In the Heartland.Friga sucked on whatever song he tried to sing lead on , I cant remember what he tried to honk on on that Cd.Friga should never been anywhere near a mic.EVER

[steveo777]

I did really like Faith In the Heartland.Friga sucked on whatever song he tried to sing lead on , I cant remember what he tried to honk on on that Cd.Friga should never been anywhere near a mic.EVER

He wanted me to play this for you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-W6TUxYATw

[stevew2]

If I had to guess, that was a management/label decision, not a producer. Still, it's a mind boggling decision. By far, one of the best songs on the album.

True, but since breaking free of Sony, micro-decisions like track sequencing are now in the bands' hands. "Generations" wasn't even on a label until later, when the now defunct Sanctuary label picked it up. I think this is just further proof that the band leader (Neal) was seriously MIA.

correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't they on Frontiers at the time of original release for the UK distribution? I remember hearing The Place in Your Heart on the Frontiers web radio station as one of the first songs (maybe THE first song) I heard from the album. Given the sound of It's Never Too Late, it's no real surprise that the label would be gaga over that song, and it ended up being the UK bonus track.

Don't know. I'm talking about the domestic release, as Journey is an American band. Herbie didn't put out Escape and say "Hold off on that Don't Stop Believin track, let's release that only on foreign import vinyls for our fans in mainland China." Bad decision. Do not care whose call it was.

In effect, that's exactly what happened with Frontiers when Only the Young and Ask the Lonely were pulled at the last minute. Soundtracks, bonus tracks, it's all the same thing, and makes the regular album weaker. Countries have been getting bonus tracks for years. Japan has gotten a ton of them (some of them defintiely worth inclusion on the album), USA has gotten a few (Maybe Tonight from Magnum's Wings of Heaven release comes to mind), and now the latest trend is to give Itunes/Target/Walmart bonus songs.

Either way, to the best of my knowledge, the European version of the album (aka the one distributed by Frontiers Records) was the first version that you could physically purchase....as opposed to receiving at a concert. I agree that it's a poor decision, but since when have the labels been into fairness for the fans?

Only the young is always my favorite song, by perry and Steve Augeri< great song and they opened with that song many times in the 2000 range,the audience loved it to,should have been a number one hit. Much better then that that lame Backtalk song Perry put on the best album they had,what a dick

[Yoda]

I sat about 24th row at last night's Greensboro show... they opened with Faith in the Heartland. It didn't go over well.
I think i was the only one singing along in the entire place.

On a side note, Keep on runnin, mother father, and never walk away were in the set. Nice to hear a LITTLE variety, including heartland.

I thought it went over OK, but yeah, like you, I was the only one singing the song in the crowd on my end...LOL!

[Jeremey]

Here's a link to my 2005 review of Generations...I don't know if I still feel the same way, as I haven't listened to the CD since....oh, 2005 or so. But reading through it, I'd imagine I still have the same assessment today.

http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/vie ... enerations

[Eric]

Here's a link to my 2005 review of Generations...I don't know if I still feel the same way, as I haven't listened to the CD since....oh, 2005 or so. But reading through it, I'd imagine I still have the same assessment today.

http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/vie ... enerations

Did you do a review for Eclipse by any chance? Forgot if I've read your thoughts on it and would be interested.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Here's a link to my 2005 review of Generations...I don't know if I still feel the same way, as I haven't listened to the CD since....oh, 2005 or so. But reading through it, I'd imagine I still have the same assessment today.

http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/vie ... enerations

Did you do a review for Eclipse by any chance? Forgot if I've read your thoughts on it and would be interested.

Here's a collection of Jeremey's thoughts on Eclipse:


I was listening to Eclipse in the gym for a change of pace, wanted something heavier with guitars but not quite Judas Priest. Anyway, suddenly "Tantra" comes on and holy shit if it doesn't sound like a song that should be on the Aladdin soundtrack. Anyone else get that vibe from that song? Pineda has a real "Grobanesque" quality to his voice in some ways but on this song all of the elements just fell into place - I absolutely had the image of Aladdin and princess Jasmine flying around on a big ass carpet.

Maybe it's just me...

Yeah, it reminded me VERY specifically of that movie for some reason. Like all "Arabian Nights" and crap. I think it has that very dated early 90's animated movie feel to it, and the subject matter just kind of fits the themes of Aladdin. Unlike "I Stand Alone," which, though it was from an animated movie, has a more timeless feel to it, and I don't really connect it to an animated movie...Which I think has a lot to do with David Foster's production than anything else. But also Pineda's vocal, which is amazing from a technical standpoint, has a very generic and stale feel to it that allows the song itself to kind of have that faceless early 90's animated movie vibe to it.

Deep analysis, I know, LOL....

But as far as Eclipse as a whole goes....just my generic opinion is it's a good hard rock record with lots of riffs, but very little in the way of memorable hooks. I just listened to the whole thing yesterday and I can't sing back a single melody (not even Tantra) from memory on the CD. I do enjoy it as background music when I'm in the mood for heavier guitars.


I was listening to "Anything Is Possible" after re-listening to "Tantra" for any semblance of hook or memorable chorus and the song kind of drifted into the background. After what seemed like 10 minutes I found myself listening again and thought "Holy crap, is this still the same song?" Meaning, geez, if you're going to make epic songs, you really need to have some kind of memorable chorus or hook to it. I realize that AIP kind of has that element to it, but as Matt mentioned, it's a forced and cramped chorus that just seems generic to me. I found that with the majority of the songs on the CD. The closest songs to having anything memorable to them (I can remember and sing the chorus right now without having to go back and listen) is Edge Of The Moment and Resonate, which I can't listen to without the mental image of Schon and Salahi rolling around in the surf.

Honestly I think Journey WANTED to make songs that were memorable and had hooks, and it just fell short on most of the CD. I can't imagine that Cain and Schon forgot the basic principles of good songwriting, and just decided to make epic guitar songs that went on for 6 or 7 minutes with no "resonance" (ha) to the material. Take "Tantra," for example...For that kind of magical, overproduced dramatic ballad, there's just GOT to be a hook to the song or it's nothing but a collection of lyrical ideas that don't make their point. Especially when you are using very familiar melodic themes, you've got to be able to take something away from the song...But I can't hum anything that resembles a chorus. I know it's there, it just lacks the hook that keeps a song with you...It's just empty calories, LOL. It also seemed to me that the vocal melodies were written by Cain with a generic singer in mind, and then "produced" by making Pineda basically reproduce the melodies as they were written without allowing the personality of the singer to be involved in making the song. It's really hard to describe, but to draw a mental image, consider Cain bringing Perry the melody of "Faithfully," and saying, here's the words and the song. What Perry did with the song is what makes it a timeless and classic track...He took the song and poured his heart into it, and made the melody his own. Now imagine "Faithfully" as it may have been had Cain written the melody and handed it to a singer to record, playing the melody for the singer on a piano note for note and making sure that singer sang the material exactly as Cain wrote it. That to me is a nagging feeling I get when I listen to a lot of the material on "Eclipse." Pineda is vocally amazing and pristine on it, but it seems to me performances like if an actor was given a libretto for a musical theatre role, and they learned it and worked it over and over again until they could perform that part exactly as written.

So I guess there's my elaboration on my thoughts on Eclipse, LOL...Again, just personal opinion and everyone takes something different away from a musical experience so I fully appreciate those who think it's an amazing work.

[Jeremey]

Thanks TNC, I knew I had posted that but had no idea where or when or in what context, LOL...

[Pelata]

I thought the same thing, essentially, about "Tantra"...but I pictured "Mulan"...haha!

[kgdjpubs]

Take "Tantra," for example... It also seemed to me that the vocal melodies were written by Cain with a generic singer in mind, and then "produced" by making Pineda basically reproduce the melodies as they were written without allowing the personality of the singer to be involved in making the song. It's really hard to describe, but to draw a mental image, consider Cain bringing Perry the melody of "Faithfully," and saying, here's the words and the song. What Perry did with the song is what makes it a timeless and classic track...He took the song and poured his heart into it, and made the melody his own. Now imagine "Faithfully" as it may have been had Cain written the melody and handed it to a singer to record, playing the melody for the singer on a piano note for note and making sure that singer sang the material exactly as Cain wrote it. That to me is a nagging feeling I get when I listen to a lot of the material on "Eclipse." Pineda is vocally amazing and pristine on it, but it seems to me performances like if an actor was given a libretto for a musical theatre role, and they learned it and worked it over and over again until they could perform that part exactly as written.

Interesting comment....and one I agree with. Maybe it's the language barrier, maybe it's something else, but one thing I have yet to see with Pineda is a distinct vocal style. He's obviously very talented technically, and good at copying someone else, but although we've heard a lot of Arnel channeling Singer X, I'm not really sure we've really heard much of Arnel himself. Some singers stamp their personality onto a song from the first time they record, others may take several albums before they develop a style, some never really get it.

In the end, I think what you are getting with Pineda is EXACTLY what Jeremey is saying. You're getting the Cain/Schon melodies exactly as written, but sung by someone with a tenor voice. No offence to either Cain or Schon, but neither of them are lead singers. Writers? Yes. Background singers? Sure. Lead Singers? No. What you aren't getting is Pineda putting himeslf into those songs and changing up melodies/lyrics as he sees fit to suit him--and that's what a great singer does. Perry is masterful at it. Compare anything Perry has done (even cover songs), and you get his personality stamped onto the performance. In as far as having a vocal identity, Pineda's the polar opposite of Perry. Perry is as distinct as most anyone out there; Pineda is as raw as they come. With Pineda, it's technically perfect, but often soulless. He will have a completely different vocal style from one song to the other (this was more prevalent on Revelation than Eclipse, but it's still there on Eclipse for the most part). I think a lot of that comes from reproducing the original melodies of the song as written instead of modifying them to use your own strengths. Maybe Pineda will learn how to do it. He's got the technical part down, and that's the hard part because range gives you a lot of freedom to create melodies. The style takes time. It's not an overnight process.

I think you might be getting a bit of that personality started. To Whom It May Concern (interestingly enough, one of Arnel's songs) has that soul in spades. He might be singing the words and melodies, but he's also living it while he sings--and the difference is night and day. The vocal is a lot of what makes the song work, even though the song itself is a bit out-of-the-box for Journey. The key is to get more of that the next time.

[Gideon]

'To Whom It May Concern' is great. A nice transition from the saccharine and aphorisms that have consumed the Journey catalogue (Anything Is Possible, anyone?), something lyrically intriguing and mature. Could use a little pruning in the musicianship department, though.

[jrny84]

The only Journey studio album I do not have, but I really like "Faith in the Heartland".

[FamilyMan]

Here's a link to my 2005 review of Generations...I don't know if I still feel the same way, as I haven't listened to the CD since....oh, 2005 or so. But reading through it, I'd imagine I still have the same assessment today.

http://forums.melodicrock.com/phpBB/vie ... enerations

Agree completely with the technical critique here. The songs on this record, some of which aren't all that bad, can't overcome the bad audio production. It could be the haste with which it was produced and released as you suggested, Jeremey. But in my opinion, every post-Perry Journey record has suffered from this. I don't understand why.? Maybe this is just how Neal and Jon prefer the sound? Puzzles me, though, because live the band sounds great. Hate to admit it, but the best sounding Journey album, I think, is Raised on Radio - which is the product of a collection of studio musicians Perry insisted on.

[kgdjpubs]

The songs on this record, some of which aren't all that bad, can't overcome the bad audio production.

Maybe it's just me, but I find it hard to understand this point of view. I've heard FAR worse productions on commercially released cds. Still, even with a bad production, a good song is a good song....just hidden under a bad production.

[steveo777]

The songs on this record, some of which aren't all that bad, can't overcome the bad audio production.

Maybe it's just me, but I find it hard to understand this point of view. I've heard FAR worse productions on commercially released cds. Still, even with a bad production, a good song is a good song....just hidden under a bad production.

There are two versions of Generations out there, the one with the shitty sound and the re-released one, which sounds a hell of a lot better.

[Gideon]

There's a rereleased version??

[slucero]

There's a rereleased version??

ya news to me too...

[steveo777]

There's a rereleased version??

ya news to me too...

Nope. Here is now what I have remembered; There was a leak which was not final album quality. I think many people got these, myself included, the album was not the final release. I had to go back because I thought the initial release had been redone with a better sounding CD issued later. Sorry for misinformation.

[Gideon]

Generations w/ Eclipse-grade production would please me.

[steveo777]

Does anyone remember correctly if the free CDs Journey was giving away at concerts sounded worse or better than the store bought ones?