Why are people so okay with just one original member left?

[The_Noble_Cause]

How's it feel to be the token Schon ball washer at melodicrock.com? Need a tissue?

Sure beats being a Ross valory ass eater. The guy doesn't even have a job. You are basically chowing down on unwashed hobo ass, bro.

[Monker]

You are the only one attempting racist insults and pointing your finger and using race to your arguments advantage. Nobody else is even coming close.

To paraphrase political spin doctor, Lee Atwater, "you don't have to say the n word to be racist." Racism can be present in more insidious subtle ways.

Fact is that you are not even being subtle about it.

In your case, the minute two brothers are hired you are posting on here that "this is not Journey."

Pretty much says it all...

Not true. I was commenting that Schon/Cain does not equate to Journey long before this. As I have said, it does matter who they choose, this is not Journey.

You seem to have racism already prepared as a defense....and that does say a lot.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Fact is that you are not even being subtle about it.

In your case, the minute two brothers are hired you are posting on here that "this is not Journey."

Pretty much says it all...

Not true. I was commenting that Schon/Cain does not equate to Journey long before this. As I have said, it does matter who they choose, this is not Journey.

You seem to have racism already prepared as a defense....and that does say a lot.

As soon as they fire 2 white guys - poof!- suddenly, it's not Journey. Your hate is obvious. Glad the new lineup is outing and purging troglodytes from the fanbase.

[Journey/Survivor]

Randy Jackson is an extremely talented bass player. He's a better Jazz bassist than Valory, and I would assume that he'd be a better Progressive Rock bassist than Valory, even though Valory was good with Progressive Rock. There are definitely styles of music that Jackson plays better than Valory. But that doesn't necessarily mean that Jackson is better than Valory at all styles of music. And I do feel that many Journey fans do underrate Ross Valory's bass playing.

[Journey/Survivor]

I have not made a single racist comment. You are just being a JourneyLoon about it.

Despite a tumultuous lineup history, you are now openly declaring "this is not Journey."
What happened?
Well, two white dudes got replaced by two soul brothers. That is all. Check your privilege.

I don't care if they hire Randy Jackson, Andrew Jackson, or Jessie Jackson, or Tornado Jackson. According to the lawsuit, they are just hired hands and not members of the band. Just as Arnel is. Their argument is that Schon/Cain IS Journey...and has been since Perry "agreed" to leave the band.

As far as I'm aware, the lawsuit was filed before Narada and Randy even signed on. Let's see what they bring to the table before dismissing them as "hired hands." You don't know anything.

I'm not trying to take sides in this argument between the two of you. And I myself have said in the past that some of the people who criticize Arnel Pineda's singing may be doing so because of his nationality and not that there is any true problem with his pronunciation of the lyrics.

But I have to correct you on one thing, TNC.....
That whole "Check your privilege" thing being said to white men is incredibly outdated and massively incorrect. White men in America do not have any advantages over anyone anymore. White men had a lot of advantages in America 60 years ago on back, but not anymore.

I myself have never judged anyone based on what race or nationality that they are and have always hated TRUE racism.

But the days of white men being privileged in America are long gone.

[youkeepmewaiting]

I have not made a single racist comment. You are just being a JourneyLoon about it.

Despite a tumultuous lineup history, you are now openly declaring "this is not Journey."
What happened?
Well, two white dudes got replaced by two soul brothers. That is all. Check your privilege.

I don't care if they hire Randy Jackson, Andrew Jackson, or Jessie Jackson, or Tornado Jackson. According to the lawsuit, they are just hired hands and not members of the band. Just as Arnel is. Their argument is that Schon/Cain IS Journey...and has been since Perry "agreed" to leave the band.

As far as I'm aware, the lawsuit was filed before Narada and Randy even signed on. Let's see what they bring to the table before dismissing them as "hired hands." You don't know anything.

I'm not trying to take sides in this argument between the two of you. And I myself have said in the past that some of the people who criticize Arnel Pineda's singing may be doing so because of his nationality and not that there is any true problem with his pronunciation of the lyrics.

But I have to correct you on one thing, TNC.....
That whole "Check your privilege" thing being said to white men is incredibly outdated and massively incorrect. White men in America do not have any advantages over anyone anymore. White men had a lot of advantages in America 60 years ago on back, but not anymore.

I myself have never judged anyone based on what race or nationality that they are and have always hated TRUE racism.

But the days of white men being privileged in America are long gone.

To not think that being a white man in America isn't still a massive advantage over being a black man is absolutely laughable

[Arkansas]

Bringing-in these two big names, one who is more an industry guy, and the other more entertainment celebrity, is all about making a huge buzz. When Journey tours again, there will be a lot of people that go just to see the drummer and how he fits. There will undoubtedly be a lot of people that go just to see Randy Jackson. And I guarantee you, Neal & Jon know the marketing and press angles that will sell out shows. That is all that matters.

If somewhere sometime a new Journey album is made, then that's just something they'll do. Don't expect huge sales.


later~

[Monker]

To not think that being a white man in America isn't still a massive advantage over being a black man is absolutely laughable

Actually, I agree with this. However, that is different then accusing somebody of invoking white privilege, which is to say a white person deserves the bass/drummer/lead vocal positions in Journey more then a minority person. Nobody has done that. Nobody has said anything racist in this thread. The only person invoking racism as a topic is TNC.

[Monker]

Bringing-in these two big names, one who is more an industry guy, and the other more entertainment celebrity, is all about making a huge buzz.

I agree with this, too...especially with Randy Jackson. When was the last time he toured with a band?

When Journey tours again, there will be a lot of people that go just to see the drummer and how he fits.

I think there will be some, but not 'lots'. IMO, they will lose a lot of people because this is no longer the Escape lineup minus Perry and they will lose more than they will gain. Journey turned themselves into a nostalgia band...and I doubt they will be able to turn away from that.

There will undoubtedly be a lot of people that go just to see Randy Jackson.

I think that is questionable. His fame is more from American Idol than Journey, really. I can see people showing up because they are curious of how good Randy is...but I still think they are going to lose a lot more than they gain.

And I guarantee you, Neal & Jon know the marketing and press angles that will sell out shows. That is all that matters.

That's questionable, too. The marketing and press angles for Eclipse went nowhere. How much does Nightmare do for promotion of tours and how much do you think they will be doing while they are in court with the various lawsuits? In addition, I would expect either Ross or Nightmare to file a complaint to stop them from touring until it is decided who owns the Journey name, and how all the $ is split.

If somewhere sometime a new Journey album is made, then that's just something they'll do. Don't expect huge sales.

I agree...I doubt it will sell even 100,000 copies, as Eclipse did.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I agree...I doubt it will sell even 100,000 copies, as Eclipse did.

or Generations did. Or Red 13 did. Or how Arrival sank like a turd initially. Stop pretending that diminishing album sales is unique/new to post-SP Journey.

[youkeepmewaiting]

I will put money on Journey performing on American Idol etc next year

And i dont care how many copies of the new album sell, i just want to hear new music. Even if they don't bother playing it live (though of course hope they do)

[JourneyHard]

Arnel has been in the band 12 years. That is longer than Steve Perry! For all intents and purposes, Arnel is an original member. Jon wrote most of the big hit songs for Journey. So, he is an "original" member, too!

By the way, if Neal wanted to tour by himself and call it Journey, it would be Journey! Legally, he cannot do it, but if he got everybody to sign off on it.

Their new drummer is awesome. He will help Neal and Jon write the new songs for the new album. It will be awesome! I loved Eclipse, but they needed a little more input to put it over the top. Now, they have it. Plus, he can make the album sound better, too.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Their new drummer is awesome. He will help Neal and Jon write the new songs for the new album. It will be awesome! I loved Eclipse, but they needed a little more input to put it over the top. Now, they have it. Plus, he can make the album sound better, too.

On this, I am very cautiously optimistic. Remember, once JSS was canned, many speculated it was because Cain didn't want another strong writer in the band. Hopefully it all works out for the best. Randy and Narada have worked together quite a bit. I think Randy signed on partially because Narada is there.

[Pacfanweb]

I think the key difference will be the energy live and the new material.

Also, in no way was Smith an upgrade over what Deen brought to the band.

When you take Deen's vocals into account, of course not.

But Deen went to Smith before he toured with Journey so Smith could help him get the parts down.

Parts that Smith originally played, for the most part. And yes, there were people right here saying "Look, there's what has been missing" when Smith first played with Journey again.

[Pacfanweb]

Journey with one original member (Schon) and one extremely long term member (Cain)and another long term member (Pineda) is a lot better than Foreigner touring with only one original member (Mick Jones) who at one time was not even touring with them because of health issues, and one other long term member (Kelly Hanson).

As important as Schon is to Journey,if he retired/left Journey, and if say Pineda, Cain or Rolie, Smith, Valory and Josh Ramos toured as Journey most people would still accept it as being Journey.

Along those lines:

Let's say a band was formed with Ross Valory, Steve Smith, Gregg Rolie, and...Steve Perry.

Which one is "more Journey"? lol

[Journey/Survivor]

[quoteI'm not trying to take sides in this argument between the two of you. And I myself have said in the past that some of the people who criticize Arnel Pineda's singing may be doing so because of his nationality and not that there is any true problem with his pronunciation of the lyrics.

But I have to correct you on one thing, TNC.....
That whole "Check your privilege" thing being said to white men is incredibly outdated and massively incorrect. White men in America do not have any advantages over anyone anymore. White men had a lot of advantages in America 60 years ago on back, but not anymore.

I myself have never judged anyone based on what race or nationality that they are and have always hated TRUE racism.

But the days of white men being privileged in America are long gone.[/quote]



To not think that being a white man in America isn't still a massive advantage over being a black man is absolutely laughable[/quote]

Uh, no, it's absolutely not!!!

I know that you did specify black MAN and white MAN. But are you aware of the fact that a white MAN is far more likely to get arrested in America than a black WOMAN is??? It's a statistical fact. And if the black WOMAN and white MAN both get arrested for the same crime, the white man will receive a longer prison sentence.

I will say that a black MAN is more likely to get arrested than the white MAN for the same crime. Which is of course wrong, and should not happen! Other than that, white MEN do not have any advantages over blacks anymore.

I have severe health issues that prevent me from being able to work anymore. Any judge with any decency would have granted me SSI disability 5 years ago, but they keep denying me in court. I have been told off the record by a black woman that works for social security that if I were black I would already be receiving disability payments.

I'm in very, very bad shape financially. I mean bordering on homelessness. And as I've said, I have very severe health issues. But the scum bag judges keep denying me payments because of government greed and the fact that I'm not a minority.

[Monker]

I agree...I doubt it will sell even 100,000 copies, as Eclipse did.

or Generations did. Or Red 13 did. Or how Arrival sank like a turd initially. Stop pretending that diminishing album sales is unique/new to post-SP Journey.

That doesn't even make sense.

[JourneyHard]

Their new drummer is awesome. He will help Neal and Jon write the new songs for the new album. It will be awesome! I loved Eclipse, but they needed a little more input to put it over the top. Now, they have it. Plus, he can make the album sound better, too.

On this, I am very cautiously optimistic. Remember, once JSS was canned, many speculated it was because Cain didn't want another strong writer in the band. Hopefully it all works out for the best. Randy and Narada have worked together quite a bit. I think Randy signed on partially because Narada is there.

Yes. It depends on the chemistry. If Jon likes the ideas Narada has, then things will work out well. If Jon doesn't like the ideas, then Neal will have to step in and break the tie, and either way Neal decides, it will be conflict and tension. But Narada doesn't need to do much in song writing. Just help out a little here and there. Very minor changes on Eclipse would have helped.

[The_Noble_Cause]

That doesn't even make sense.

You keep referencing the sales of Eclipse as if it's sales performance is an anomaly in Journey music history. It's not. Every standalone post-SP Journey album has been something of a failure. So stop with the dishonest framing already.

[Monker]

That doesn't even make sense.

You keep referencing the sales of Eclipse as if it's sales performance is an anomaly in Journey music history. It's not. Every standalone post-SP Journey album has been something of a failure. So stop with the dishonest framing already.

That's not what I did. You are applying a motive that doesn't exist.

Eclipse was Journey's last album.

If this lineup releases an album, I don't think it will sell as well...because (as I was saying) IMO they will lose more fans than gain by replacing Smith and Valory.

Eclipse sold 100,000 copies.

Therefore, I doubt any new album would sell 100,000 copies, which Eclipse did.
My comment had NOTHING to do with the success or failure of Eclipse. All I was doing was making a point of comparison.

[jrnyman28]

Okay, question: In what way is Randy Jackson an "upgrade" over Ross Valory, the guy who actually played on all those iconic hits they're going to perform live?

Ross didn't even write all of his bass lines. He has been a serviceable bass player but has not been particularly creative over the years like he may have been in the beginning. I believe Randy is more technically proficient, plus he brings connections as well as energy Ross has been sorely missing for at least a decade now.

Also, do not underestimate the chemistry between bass player and drummer. It is integral to a rhythm section holding down the bottom end.

And how is Narada an "upgrade" over Steve Smith, who many consider the finest drummer on the planet? Even before Neal Peart passed away, many considered him as such. PLUS, he's also "the guy who played on the albums", for the most part.

Smitty taught me to pay attention to the drums, to love drums. He is my favorite drummer and I have always ranked him up there right next to Neil Peart. But if someone doesn't want to play, there is no value there. This is not his passion.

Add to that, the songwriting and producing chops of Narada and you have a major upgrade.

[jrnyman28]

Ross Valory is severely underrated and you can't replace him after he's been in the band since day one.

I'm gonna go ahead and state the obvious, that this is not the 1st time Ross has been replaced. It can easily be done. The only thing Ross has brought to Journey for the past 15+ years is his status as an original member.

[jrnyman28]

On this, I am very cautiously optimistic. Remember, once JSS was canned, many speculated it was because Cain didn't want another strong writer in the band. Hopefully it all works out for the best. Randy and Narada have worked together quite a bit. I think Randy signed on partially because Narada is there.

I don't remember it that way. I thought it had to do with Cain wanting the legacy sound and not wanting to go in a harder rock direction like the Soul SirkUS material. (And maybe a little insecurity that Neal and JSS could team up on him.)

[jrnyman28]

Along those lines:

Let's say a band was formed with Ross Valory, Steve Smith, Gregg Rolie, and...Steve Perry.

Which one is "more Journey"? lol

"More" Journey is irrelevant, its about who owns the name.
But while I totally believe Journey could go on without Neal if it is worked out, I truly feel that would be more egregious than without ANY other member, ie Perry.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I don't remember it that way. I thought it had to do with Cain wanting the legacy sound and not wanting to go in a harder rock direction like the Soul SirkUS material. (And maybe a little insecurity that Neal and JSS could team up on him.)

Nobody knows for sure. The press release said they were returning to their legacy sound. I remember fans speculating that Cain was threatened by JSS's writing prowess.

[Monker]

On this, I am very cautiously optimistic. Remember, once JSS was canned, many speculated it was because Cain didn't want another strong writer in the band. Hopefully it all works out for the best. Randy and Narada have worked together quite a bit. I think Randy signed on partially because Narada is there.

I don't remember it that way. I thought it had to do with Cain wanting the legacy sound and not wanting to go in a harder rock direction like the Soul SirkUS material. (And maybe a little insecurity that Neal and JSS could team up on him.)

If you remember, Neal was saying they were moving on from Perry dating all the way back to the hiring of Augeri. Part of Neal's story about Augeri was hearing him on the radio and thinking he would be a good singer for a rockier version of Journey. And, yes, that was the entire point of JSS. The embracing of the "legacy sound" (as Jonathan said) did not start until AFTER they hired Arnel.

One of the last things Dean speculated about was that JSS made some demos of the 'hits' and maybe Walmart did not like what they heard so they asked Journey to hire someone else. I can't remember exactly what I said that he was replying to. Maybe that they hired Arnel because of the Walmart deal, and Dean got more specific. But, that is what I always thought happened...they wanted someone who sounded more like Perry so they could rerecord the hits for Walmart...and JSS just didn't have the right sound for that.

The speculation of Jonathan not wanting another writer and such just doesn't sound right to me.

[JourneyHard]

That doesn't even make sense.

You keep referencing the sales of Eclipse as if it's sales performance is an anomaly in Journey music history. It's not. Every standalone post-SP Journey album has been something of a failure. So stop with the dishonest framing already.

That's not what I did. You are applying a motive that doesn't exist.

Eclipse was Journey's last album.

If this lineup releases an album, I don't think it will sell as well...because (as I was saying) IMO they will lose more fans than gain by replacing Smith and Valory.

Eclipse sold 100,000 copies.

Therefore, I doubt any new album would sell 100,000 copies, which Eclipse did.
My comment had NOTHING to do with the success or failure of Eclipse. All I was doing was making a point of comparison.

Traces sold 73,000. So, if Steve Perry was in Journey, the new album wouldn't do as well as Eclipse!

[The_Noble_Cause]

One of the last things Dean speculated about was that JSS made some demos of the 'hits' and maybe Walmart did not like what they heard so they asked Journey to hire someone else. I can't remember exactly what I said that he was replying to. Maybe that they hired Arnel because of the Walmart deal, and Dean got more specific. But, that is what I always thought happened...they wanted someone who sounded more like Perry so they could rerecord the hits for Walmart...and JSS just didn't have the right sound for that.

Sounds like revisionist history. When JSS was in the band people were making all sorts of Perry 2.0 comparisons. Quotes below.

"And yes, if you close your eyes he sounds just like Perry, but -- dare I say it? -- maybe even more passionate and full of verve. Hits such as 'I'll Be Alright Without You' and 'Wheel in the Sky' showcased his mighty voice.” - Lorilee Craker, Grand Rapids Press

“The one-time Yngwie Malmsteen vocalist channeled (Steve) Perry flawlessly, nailing all the high notes and then some…Soto's got it going on.” - Christopher John Treacy, Boston Herald

[The_Noble_Cause]

Traces sold 73,000. So, if Steve Perry was in Journey, the new album wouldn't do as well as Eclipse!

Good point. As I've been saying, if Sony could patch things up with TOTO, I have no doubt that Journey could find itself on a decent non-frontiers label.

[The_Noble_Cause]

That's not what I did. You are applying a motive that doesn't exist.

Eclipse was Journey's last album.

If this lineup releases an album, I don't think it will sell as well...because (as I was saying) IMO they will lose more fans than gain by replacing Smith and Valory.

Eclipse sold 100,000 copies.

Therefore, I doubt any new album would sell 100,000 copies, which Eclipse did.
My comment had NOTHING to do with the success or failure of Eclipse. All I was doing was making a point of comparison.

Eclipse didn't have Smith. Makes zero difference. Your anti-Eclipse agenda is pretty transparent, so you can drop the act.