Trial By Fire - Journey's best album?

[Journey/Survivor]

From that standpoint I agree, Perry did pretty much orchestrate his own exit whether he knew it at the time or not. He did probably think that Neal and Jon didn't have the balls to kick him out and was perhaps willing to just keep them hanging on for his surgery decision indefinitely, thereby sidelining Journey once again. Many people do seem to focus on Perry being ousted from the band in '98 as a huge disservice to Perry, but casual fans I guess forget that the dude ditched the band in the middle of tour plans back in '87 leaving the rest of the guys high and dry for many years.

It has always been my opinion that Perry had no intentions at all of touring for Trial By Fire, and he knew that right from the start before they even started writing the album.

[danielb]

My favorite Perry phase started in 1984 with Street Talk. His more soulful vocals on that album, ROR, FTLOSM and TBF, are what I return to the most.

[UrbanCoyote]

[quote="Loneman1"

It has always been my opinion that Perry had no intentions at all of touring for Trial By Fire, and he knew that right from the start before they even started writing the album.

This has always been my belief as well. I've always felt the only reason he did the album was to prevent the band from replacing him with another singer. In the end, they moved on without him.

[Monker]

[quote="Loneman1"

It has always been my opinion that Perry had no intentions at all of touring for Trial By Fire, and he knew that right from the start before they even started writing the album.

This has always been my belief as well. I've always felt the only reason he did the album was to prevent the band from replacing him with another singer. In the end, they moved on without him.

Sony also put a lot of reunion money on the table. From what I understand, they also offered to release two more FTLOSM singles if Perry agreed to join the reunion...which Sony did do but did not promote them much.

To me, it always seemed that Sony manipulated both Perry and the band to get the reunion THEY wanted...but, Perry was more interested in being solo and the band were happy with the Chalfant/Gregg lineup. So, instead of investing for the long term in both Perry solo and Journey without Perry...they went for the short term with a reunion that was never going to work out in the long term...and they threw a lot of money on the table to get what they wanted. If Sony had not done that, I have to wonder how many more solo albums Perry would have done...and how well Journey would have done with Gregg and Chalfant...and if that would have been the better out come for everyone involved.

[FamilyMan]

[quote="Loneman1"

It has always been my opinion that Perry had no intentions at all of touring for Trial By Fire, and he knew that right from the start before they even started writing the album.

This has always been my belief as well. I've always felt the only reason he did the album was to prevent the band from replacing him with another singer. In the end, they moved on without him.

Sony also put a lot of reunion money on the table. From what I understand, they also offered to release two more FTLOSM singles if Perry agreed to join the reunion...which Sony did do but did not promote them much.

To me, it always seemed that Sony manipulated both Perry and the band to get the reunion THEY wanted...but, Perry was more interested in being solo and the band were happy with the Chalfant/Gregg lineup. So, instead of investing for the long term in both Perry solo and Journey without Perry...they went for the short term with a reunion that was never going to work out in the long term...and they threw a lot of money on the table to get what they wanted. If Sony had not done that, I have to wonder how many more solo albums Perry would have done...and how well Journey would have done with Gregg and Chalfant...and if that would have been the better out come for everyone involved.

With all due respect to Kevin Chalfant AND Gregg Rolie, the Escape lineup is what fans were clamoring for and Sony was right to insist on it. I have a feeling that like every other lineup, a Chalfant-led Journey would have imploded as well.

[The_Noble_Cause]

With all due respect to Kevin Chalfant AND Gregg Rolie, the Escape lineup is what fans were clamoring for and Sony was right to insist on it. I have a feeling that like every other lineup, a Chalfant-led Journey would have imploded as well.

Without Perry, Herbie would be more inclined to manage them. Chalfant/Rolie would have ushered in a new Journey golden age. As hard as they've tried, everything since TBF has just been coasting on nostalgia fumes.

[Marabelle]

Maybe the man could walk on water but I suspect he couldn’t and although many others wanted him to believe it, I certainly think he knew better.

[danielb]

It's somebody else's vision of how Journey should sound like as an aging band. I think Arrival is much more Journey sounding than TBF.

Arrival is very good/great AOR but TBF is the real deal. I agree it isn't far removed from what Perry was doing stylistically around that time, but I don't mind that given my fondness for Perry's voice 1986 and onwards. Castles Burning could have been on FTLOSM. Perry is similar to someone like Glenn Hughes in the sense that their delivery and style of singing are so unique that any band/project they are involved with is bound to end up sounding like their solo album

However, Valory and Smith also shine on TBF. Remove those 3 and it could never be the same or as good again. As the subsequent albums also have shown in a big way, with Arrival coming the closest to past musical achievements.

[Journey/Survivor]

However, Valory and Smith also shine on TBF. Remove those 3 and it could never be the same or as good again. As the subsequent albums also have shown in a big way, with Arrival coming the closest to past musical achievements.

Smith and Valory were especially awesome on "One More." I wish that they had been allowed to play that aggressively more often in Journey.

[danielb]

Exactly. They're approaching Geddy Lee and Neil Peart territory there

[Memorex]

Exactly. They're approaching Geddy Lee and Neil Peart territory there

Speaking of Geddy, he has a new show coming out on Paramount+. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ds6LCsgXKEE

[danielb]

NP: Only the Young. Another example of Valory playing exactly what the song needs. The perfect mix of drive and melody. Same thing with Ask the Lonely. Well, all of them really.

[St.George]

The production sounds like a million bucks, the songs are really strong and Perry's delivery is full of melancholy and grace. Their most mature album but possibly also their best?

IMHO, not even near. Production is solid, since it was the "long awaited return" on an established band. But the songwriting and Perry's voice are miles away from their heyday.

[danielb]

I disagree. Only because his acrobatics days are over on TBF doesn't mean he's past his expiry date by any means. On the contrary, the album is full of emotive singing. Don't Be Down On Me Baby just for starters. There's a sense of freedom on the album. The reggae song is done tongue in cheek but still works and the guitar solo is killer.

When listening to TBF and FTLOSM it also strikes me how important the drummer is to a band. Deen is great in concert with his energy and singing abilities, but in the studio he's a lot more square than Smith and even the drummer on FTLOSM. He doesn't play the cymbals and hi hat, to start with. I miss those kind of creative patterns that Smith brought to the mix.

[St.George]

I disagree. Only because his acrobatics days are over on TBF doesn't mean he's past his expiry date by any means. On the contrary, the album is full of emotive singing. Don't Be Down On Me Baby just for starters. There's a sense of freedom on the album. The reggae song is done tongue in cheek but still works and the guitar solo is killer.

When listening to TBF and FTLOSM it also strikes me how important the drummer is to a band. Deen is great in concert with his energy and singing abilities, but in the studio he's a lot more square than Smith and even the drummer on FTLOSM. He doesn't play the cymbals and hi hat, to start with. I miss those kind of creative patterns that Smith brought to the mix.

I agree you disagree...

Still, I consider the 85% of the songs pretty mediocre. Yes, some highlights here and there. But the whole thing is weak, IMO.

1. "Message of Love" - OK song, but didn't pass the test of time.
2. "One More" - Meh! Some nice bits but boring overall
3. "When You Love a Woman" - Great JRNY classic.
4. "If He Should Break Your Heart" - Meh! Also some nice bits but weird sounding.
5. "Forever in Blue" - Yawning starts here...
6. "Castles Burning" - (one of their worst songs ever)...
7. "Don't Be Down on Me Baby"...
8. "Still She Cries"...
9. "Colors of the Spirit"...
10. "When I Think of You"...
11. "Easy to Fall" ...and finishes here!
12. "Can't Tame the Lion" - OK song, but didn't pass the test of time.
13. "It's Just the Rain" - Some more yawning
14. "Trial by Fire" - Ok, but maybe a bit new-agey
15. "Baby I'm a Leavin' You" (hidden track) - There's no need to unveil this one. The right choice would've been to keep it hidden, LOL
16. "I Can See It in Your Eyes" - This, along with WYLAW are the best TBF songs for me. No sense this is a bonus track. Should be on the regular album.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Still, I consider the 85% of the songs pretty mediocre. Yes, some highlights here and there. But the whole thing is weak, IMO.

1. "Message of Love" - OK song, but didn't pass the test of time.
2. "One More" - Meh! Some nice bits but boring overall
3. "When You Love a Woman" - Great JRNY classic.
4. "If He Should Break Your Heart" - Meh! Also some nice bits but weird sounding.
5. "Forever in Blue" - Yawning starts here...
6. "Castles Burning" - (one of their worst songs ever)...
7. "Don't Be Down on Me Baby"...
8. "Still She Cries"...
9. "Colors of the Spirit"...
10. "When I Think of You"...
11. "Easy to Fall" ...and finishes here!
12. "Can't Tame the Lion" - OK song, but didn't pass the test of time.
13. "It's Just the Rain" - Some more yawning
14. "Trial by Fire" - Ok, but maybe a bit new-agey
15. "Baby I'm a Leavin' You" (hidden track) - There's no need to unveil this one. The right choice would've been to keep it hidden, LOL
16. "I Can See It in Your Eyes" - This, along with WYLAW are the best TBF songs for me. No sense this is a bonus track. Should be on the regular album.

I don't know what "pass the test of time" even means in the context of this band or the current musical landscape. Arguably, time/popularity stop being indicators of quality after ROR.

Y'know, I still think "Higher Place" is one of the best songs they've ever done (of any era). Does anybody really know about it or give a shit? All sorts of examples like that.

Trial By Fire needed more rock tracks. Otherwise, I don't really have many complaints about it.

[Monker]

With all due respect to Kevin Chalfant AND Gregg Rolie, the Escape lineup is what fans were clamoring for and Sony was right to insist on it. I have a feeling that like every other lineup, a Chalfant-led Journey would have imploded as well.

You are not taking into consideration what Sony's motivation is: MONEY.

TBF was to be Journey's version "Hell Freezes Over". "Hell Freezes Over" has sold 9 million copies compares to TBF's 1 million. In addition, Sony remastered and rereleased the entire Journey and Perry catalogue. They sent special displays for TBF to retail. There were multiple CD singles released. Sonyspent $'s to promote TBF expecting a BIG return...and they did not get it.

Even by "normal" standards, TBF was not much more than a mediocre hit. With the exception of "Dream After Dream", TBF is the worst selling album of the Perry era.

Sony fucked up by smashing together a band that was not inspired to be together at that time. It was a HUGE mistake on Sony's part. They could have supported Perry's solo career and maybe had a couple more gold albums. They could have supported the Rolie/Chalfant/Herbie version of Journey and maybe had a few albums with the same success as TBF. They would have made a LOT more money by doing this...I'm really not sure if they even broke even with TBF but it is not even CLOSE to "Hell Freezes Over", which is what Sony expected.

[Onestepper]

This thread being the inspiration (thank you by the way), I went back this weekend and listened to TBF start to finish again. Hadn't listened to it in years. While I never thought it was even close to their best effort, I always appreciated the ability to let each of the band members shine individually. And given how much of a muddled mess Freedom turned out to be, it was great to listen to such a great production.

But after listening this last time, it just kept reminding me of a solo Perry effort. Particularly with the slower tempo'd tracks. Songs like Castle's Burning and Can't Tame the Lion just have never done much for me. But the totality of the listen was good, not great. If I wanted to just chill out on a beach and get some sleep, I might put on a few of the tracks to keep the world calm. Nothing wrong with that.

Overall I'd still give it a B+.

[St.George]

With all due respect to Kevin Chalfant AND Gregg Rolie, the Escape lineup is what fans were clamoring for and Sony was right to insist on it. I have a feeling that like every other lineup, a Chalfant-led Journey would have imploded as well.

You are not taking into consideration what Sony's motivation is: MONEY.

TBF was to be Journey's version "Hell Freezes Over". "Hell Freezes Over" has sold 9 million copies compares to TBF's 1 million. In addition, Sony remastered and rereleased the entire Journey and Perry catalogue. They sent special displays for TBF to retail. There were multiple CD singles released. Sonyspent $'s to promote TBF expecting a BIG return...and they did not get it.

Even by "normal" standards, TBF was not much more than a mediocre hit. With the exception of "Dream After Dream", TBF is the worst selling album of the Perry era.

Sony fucked up by smashing together a band that was not inspired to be together at that time. It was a HUGE mistake on Sony's part. They could have supported Perry's solo career and maybe had a couple more gold albums. They could have supported the Rolie/Chalfant/Herbie version of Journey and maybe had a few albums with the same success as TBF. They would have made a LOT more money by doing this...I'm really not sure if they even broke even with TBF but it is not even CLOSE to "Hell Freezes Over", which is what Sony expected.

Kudos! I applaud your POV here.

[Jeremey]

Trial by Fire is definitely a vibe.

I really, really loved Perry's tone on this record, and when he was able to shine it was a beautiful thing, but there were other moments where he sounded weary, and that's not good. That's been my biggest complaint with his Traces and onward output is that to me he just sounds weary and sad, and at least on Trial By Fire you had Schon with some amazing clean and sparsely produced melodic guitar work, and some solid piano playing from Cain as opposed to Traces where it seems like just a collection of studio musicians (although one hell of a band).

I loved the vibe of Trial by Fire but then again my favorite Schon solo album was his Higher Octave CD (can't remember the name? Had "Big Moon" on it with a lot of Smitty and Cain on the CD). Just a very laid back and well-produced organic album that did highlight all the 80s lineup and didn't push Perry too hard to live up to 1981 Perry. There were some pretty sleepy tracks on there though and it's hard to listen to the whole way through. I wish there were a couple more rockers and some of the weaker material had been pruned.

Schon and Cain had an inside joke about the recording of this record and called it "Trial by Fear."

They re-learned "When I Think of You" to play with me in the warehouse.

Cain told me that when they recorded Trial By Fire, they tracked everything at his Wildhorse Studios, which is a separate building across the driveway of Cain's main house. When Perry wasn't tracking vocals, rather than hang out with the band he'd go over to Cain's house and hang out with Liz Cain. Liz told me that Perry was fascinated by their chandeliers.

"Easy to Fall" was about a real person who I won't name here, but when Schon couldn't remember the song, Cain prompted him by saying, "you know, that song we wrote about _____"

Good times. It was a real privilege to be around those guys and get that kind of insight into the band.

[Journey/Survivor]

Trial by Fire is definitely a vibe.

I really, really loved Perry's tone on this record, and when he was able to shine it was a beautiful thing, but there were other moments where he sounded weary, and that's not good. That's been my biggest complaint with his Traces and onward output is that to me he just sounds weary and sad, and at least on Trial By Fire you had Schon with some amazing clean and sparsely produced melodic guitar work, and some solid piano playing from Cain as opposed to Traces where it seems like just a collection of studio musicians (although one hell of a band).

I loved the vibe of Trial by Fire but then again my favorite Schon solo album was his Higher Octave CD (can't remember the name? Had "Big Moon" on it with a lot of Smitty and Cain on the CD). Just a very laid back and well-produced organic album that did highlight all the 80s lineup and didn't push Perry too hard to live up to 1981 Perry. There were some pretty sleepy tracks on there though and it's hard to listen to the whole way through. I wish there were a couple more rockers and some of the weaker material had been pruned.

Schon and Cain had an inside joke about the recording of this record and called it "Trial by Fear."

They re-learned "When I Think of You" to play with me in the warehouse.

Cain told me that when they recorded Trial By Fire, they tracked everything at his Wildhorse Studios, which is a separate building across the driveway of Cain's main house. When Perry wasn't tracking vocals, rather than hang out with the band he'd go over to Cain's house and hang out with Liz Cain. Liz told me that Perry was fascinated by their chandeliers.

"Easy to Fall" was about a real person who I won't name here, but when Schon couldn't remember the song, Cain prompted him by saying, "you know, that song we wrote about _____"

Good times. It was a real privilege to be around those guys and get that kind of insight into the band.

Beyond The Thunder is the name of the Schon album that you were trying to think of. It was his second solo album.

Also, I agree with you about Perry on TBF. He sounds strong on some songs. But pretty ragged and worn out on others.

I listened to Traces about 3 times when I first got it, but haven't listened to it since. Obviously Perry's voice was the strongest on Street Talk of the 3 solo albums. But FTLOSM has always been my favorite of the 3 albums. It's the closest to sounding like Journey of the 3 albums.

[NoMoreTails]

Easy To Fall is one of my favorite songs they've ever recorded. One More is one of their best harder songs and Smith's best Journey performance for me.

I could have done without When I think of You and Colors of the Spirit which just feel like they're too solo Perry to me, and "Forever in Blue-uhhh"... I cringe at that extra syllable. I do appreciate Still She Cries, It's Just the Rain and TBF.

I found Perry's voice to be sad at that point, and ever since. Not even just how much he'd lost at that pointy, but the weepy sad quality of it.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Schon and Cain had an inside joke about the recording of this record and called it "Trial by Fear."

They re-learned "When I Think of You" to play with me in the warehouse.

Cain told me that when they recorded Trial By Fire, they tracked everything at his Wildhorse Studios, which is a separate building across the driveway of Cain's main house. When Perry wasn't tracking vocals, rather than hang out with the band he'd go over to Cain's house and hang out with Liz Cain. Liz told me that Perry was fascinated by their chandeliers.

"Easy to Fall" was about a real person who I won't name here, but when Schon couldn't remember the song, Cain prompted him by saying, "you know, that song we wrote about _____"

Good times. It was a real privilege to be around those guys and get that kind of insight into the band.

Love these insights!

[Eric]

Trial by Fire is definitely a vibe.

I really, really loved Perry's tone on this record, and when he was able to shine it was a beautiful thing, but there were other moments where he sounded weary, and that's not good. That's been my biggest complaint with his Traces and onward output is that to me he just sounds weary and sad, and at least on Trial By Fire you had Schon with some amazing clean and sparsely produced melodic guitar work, and some solid piano playing from Cain as opposed to Traces where it seems like just a collection of studio musicians (although one hell of a band).

I loved the vibe of Trial by Fire but then again my favorite Schon solo album was his Higher Octave CD (can't remember the name? Had "Big Moon" on it with a lot of Smitty and Cain on the CD). Just a very laid back and well-produced organic album that did highlight all the 80s lineup and didn't push Perry too hard to live up to 1981 Perry. There were some pretty sleepy tracks on there though and it's hard to listen to the whole way through. I wish there were a couple more rockers and some of the weaker material had been pruned.

Schon and Cain had an inside joke about the recording of this record and called it "Trial by Fear."

They re-learned "When I Think of You" to play with me in the warehouse.

Cain told me that when they recorded Trial By Fire, they tracked everything at his Wildhorse Studios, which is a separate building across the driveway of Cain's main house. When Perry wasn't tracking vocals, rather than hang out with the band he'd go over to Cain's house and hang out with Liz Cain. Liz told me that Perry was fascinated by their chandeliers.

"Easy to Fall" was about a real person who I won't name here, but when Schon couldn't remember the song, Cain prompted him by saying, "you know, that song we wrote about _____"

Good times. It was a real privilege to be around those guys and get that kind of insight into the band.

Thank you Jeremey - this is fabulous.

[Monker]

Easy To Fall is one of my favorite songs they've ever recorded. One More is one of their best harder songs and Smith's best Journey performance for me.

I could have done without When I think of You and Colors of the Spirit which just feel like they're too solo Perry to me, and "Forever in Blue-uhhh"... I cringe at that extra syllable. I do appreciate Still She Cries, It's Just the Rain and TBF.

I found Perry's voice to be sad at that point, and ever since. Not even just how much he'd lost at that pointy, but the weepy sad quality of it.

To this day, whenever I see "Forever In Blue" I think of this song which I love:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7DmVEXBUDY

"Forever In Blue" is 'meh' to me.

[Memorex]

Easy To Fall is one of my favorite songs they've ever recorded. One More is one of their best harder songs and Smith's best Journey performance for me.

I could have done without When I think of You and Colors of the Spirit which just feel like they're too solo Perry to me, and "Forever in Blue-uhhh"... I cringe at that extra syllable. I do appreciate Still She Cries, It's Just the Rain and TBF.

I found Perry's voice to be sad at that point, and ever since. Not even just how much he'd lost at that pointy, but the weepy sad quality of it.

To this day, whenever I see "Forever In Blue" I think of this song which I love:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7DmVEXBUDY

"Forever In Blue" is 'meh' to me.

Forever Blue is a great song.

I really like Forever in Blue.

[jestor92]

I think Easy to Fall is fantastic and my favorite on the album. Also love It’s Just The Rain and Trial by Fire. When I Think of You is also another one I really like. The only songs I don’t care for on the album are Castles Burning and Colors of the Spirit. The rest of the album ranges from good to pretty good for me.

[UrbanCoyote]

Trial by Fire is definitely a vibe.

I really, really loved Perry's tone on this record, and when he was able to shine it was a beautiful thing, but there were other moments where he sounded weary, and that's not good. That's been my biggest complaint with his Traces and onward output is that to me he just sounds weary and sad, and at least on Trial By Fire you had Schon with some amazing clean and sparsely produced melodic guitar work, and some solid piano playing from Cain as opposed to Traces where it seems like just a collection of studio musicians (although one hell of a band).

I loved the vibe of Trial by Fire but then again my favorite Schon solo album was his Higher Octave CD (can't remember the name? Had "Big Moon" on it with a lot of Smitty and Cain on the CD). Just a very laid back and well-produced organic album that did highlight all the 80s lineup and didn't push Perry too hard to live up to 1981 Perry. There were some pretty sleepy tracks on there though and it's hard to listen to the whole way through. I wish there were a couple more rockers and some of the weaker material had been pruned.

Schon and Cain had an inside joke about the recording of this record and called it "Trial by Fear."

They re-learned "When I Think of You" to play with me in the warehouse.

Cain told me that when they recorded Trial By Fire, they tracked everything at his Wildhorse Studios, which is a separate building across the driveway of Cain's main house. When Perry wasn't tracking vocals, rather than hang out with the band he'd go over to Cain's house and hang out with Liz Cain. Liz told me that Perry was fascinated by their chandeliers.

"Easy to Fall" was about a real person who I won't name here, but when Schon couldn't remember the song, Cain prompted him by saying, "you know, that song we wrote about _____"

Good times. It was a real privilege to be around those guys and get that kind of insight into the band.

So.....did Neal remeber the song after Cain prompted him?

[NoMoreTails]

Forever Blue is a great song.

I really like Forever in Blue.

Perry's melodramatic breathing exercises ruin it for me.

[Eric]

Easy To Fall is one of my favorite songs they've ever recorded. One More is one of their best harder songs and Smith's best Journey performance for me.

I could have done without When I think of You and Colors of the Spirit which just feel like they're too solo Perry to me, and "Forever in Blue-uhhh"... I cringe at that extra syllable. I do appreciate Still She Cries, It's Just the Rain and TBF.

I found Perry's voice to be sad at that point, and ever since. Not even just how much he'd lost at that pointy, but the weepy sad quality of it.

To this day, whenever I see "Forever In Blue" I think of this song which I love:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7DmVEXBUDY

"Forever In Blue" is 'meh' to me.

That's definitely superior than the TBF song of the same name...