Journey Tour Opening Night

[The_Noble_Cause]

It would be interesting to know the details of their last contract...if they were paid something in advance, if everything was off record sales, etc. If they were old school and given an advance to pay for the recording and had to make that up with sales, then they may be in debt to the label since Freedom did not sell well at all. If that happened, what is the point of doing it again - if Journey is going to LOSE money?

It seemed apparent to me that Freedom was an indie labor of love between Narada and Neal during covid lockdown. BMG (the US label) wasn't in the picture until later and did zero promotion. Of the recent releases, I could imagine Walmart giving the band an advance for Eclipse based on Revelation's success. Otherwise, they remain free agents doing this on their own dime.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Journey is never going to drastically alter their sets because they're not trying to gain new fans. They know who comes to their shows and they know how strong the catalog is. The vast majority of fans going to see Journey are going because of the hits.

They make new albums to satisfy themselves and for the small percentage of legacy fans who care. They know new albums are not going to sell, and they know most of their live audience won't know any new songs.

Journey will go to their collective grave playing the same songs because they can.

As for their set list. Why fix something that isn't broke? If people are going to fall over themselves to pay hundreds for a Journey ticket even if the concert has been the same for over a decade, why change it? Give Neal a couple slots to fill with whatever he wants to keep him happy and keep everything else the same for the same huge crowds they have been playing to for 25yrs now, since Vacations Over. They are simply giving the people who buy those tickets what they want.

I agree about the set list. That's why they do it.

As for releasing albums, of course they want to make some money on them. Whichever label licenses it from them most likely pays them up front for X-number of units and a percentage for anything beyond that. They've been doing this long enough to know that no new music from them is going to sell anywhere close to what they sold at their peak. Neal loves making new music, Journey or otherwise. I honestly think Cain doesn't care either way anymore, though pre-Eclipse he has said there is no need to since they have more songs now than they can play live. The newer/newish members are probably into it more than he is.

Point is, selling records isn't a money-making venture really for anyone anymore. There's a small percentage of their global fanbase who cares and I'm sure they enjoy it to some degree.

I would keep in mind that they are still on the Freedom tour. If they didn't change the setlist for the second leg, why change it for the third leg of the tour? I would hope and expect to see some changes when they go overseas or do the Def Leppard co-tour.

[Gideon]

Good news, TNC: they definitely ain't lippin'.

Bad news: AP is struggling. If you listen to the first few shows, it's obvious AP still has considerable range and power but not the stamina. Honestly, they shouldn't do any back to back shows. Mandatory rest day MINIMUM in between each.

[Pelata]

I agree about the set list. That's why they do it.

As for releasing albums, of course they want to make some money on them. Whichever label licenses it from them most likely pays them up front for X-number of units and a percentage for anything beyond that. They've been doing this long enough to know that no new music from them is going to sell anywhere close to what they sold at their peak. Neal loves making new music, Journey or otherwise. I honestly think Cain doesn't care either way anymore, though pre-Eclipse he has said there is no need to since they have more songs now than they can play live. The newer/newish members are probably into it more than he is.

Point is, selling records isn't a money-making venture really for anyone anymore. There's a small percentage of their global fanbase who cares and I'm sure they enjoy it to some degree.

I would keep in mind that they are still on the Freedom tour. If they didn't change the setlist for the second leg, why change it for the third leg of the tour? I would hope and expect to see some changes when they go overseas or do the Def Leppard co-tour.

If anything, I think the tour with Def Leppard will have them with a shorter set, so all hits. They might change a song or the new song they play...but I doubt thier setlist changes much between now and retirement.

[Monker]

As for releasing albums, of course they want to make some money on them. Whichever label licenses it from them most likely pays them up front for X-number of units and a percentage for anything beyond that. They've been doing this long enough to know that no new music from them is going to sell anywhere close to what they sold at their peak. Neal loves making new music, Journey or otherwise. I honestly think Cain doesn't care either way anymore, though pre-Eclipse he has said there is no need to since they have more songs now than they can play live. The newer/newish members are probably into it more than he is.

Point is, selling records isn't a money-making venture really for anyone anymore. There's a small percentage of their global fanbase who cares and I'm sure they enjoy it to some degree.

Well, that's not true...unless you change the definition of "anyone". The Stones "Hackney Diamonds" was a huge success last year. It sold in one week what Freedom did in its entire run so far...and the Stones have not even toured.

Sorry, but IMO, Neal was naïve enough to believe Journey can still have a #1 platinum album...well, at least he was before Freedom flopped. Again, there is no reason to release it on a label if you don't think it is going to sell. There is no reason for a label to release it if they don't think it is going to sell. I think Revelation sold well and they made money from it. Eclipse was Neal's ROR where he had control over everything and released the CD he wanted. Freedom was an attempt to go back to Revelation and repeat its success...and it didn't happen. I think it shocked even Jonathan that the first single went nowhere...and it seems nobody even noticed any of the singles that followed. Freedom seemed to be ignored by the general public. I remember Def Leppard's last album got far more attention on YouTube than Freedom.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I think it shocked even Jonathan that the first single went nowhere...and it seems nobody even noticed any of the singles that followed. Freedom seemed to be ignored by the general public. I remember Def Leppard's last album got far more attention on YouTube than Freedom.

The 2 Arnel albums immediately preceding Freedom had Walmart deals and ALOT of promotion including live national TV (City Of Hope was even played live on the NBC Today show). Freedom didn't have any of that.

[Journey/Survivor]

By today's standards for Classic Rock bands, this is decent.

https://rocknloadmag.com/news/journeys- ... ock-chart/

[The_Noble_Cause]

By today's standards for Classic Rock bands, this is decent.

https://rocknloadmag.com/news/journeys- ... ock-chart/

Not even placing in the top 50 of the Billboard 100 is not decent at all. They are back in the Augeri wilderness. Def Leppard, in comparison, had their last album debut at number 10.

Whatever mainstream commercial momentum they had with Revelation was lost by the divisive Eclipse. As with Red 13 and Generations, the band is reaching only the die hard faithful.

[Journey/Survivor]

By today's standards for Classic Rock bands, this is decent.

https://rocknloadmag.com/news/journeys- ... ock-chart/

Not even placing in the top 50 of the Billboard 100 is not decent at all. They are back in the Augeri wilderness. Def Leppard, in comparison, had their last album debut at number 10.

Whatever mainstream commercial momentum they had with Revelation was lost by the divisive Eclipse. As with Red 13 and Generations, the band is reaching only the die hard faithful.

I'm guessing that everything that charted ahead of them was Doja Cat or some crap like that? Whatever a "Doja Cat" is? I'm serious. I'm guessing that that is a woman, but I don't know for sure?

If it turns out that there were other Classic Rock bands who were ahead of them on the charts at the time that Freedom was released, then that might be a bad sign? But if all there was ahead of them is this modern pop crap, then that has to be taken into consideration. Journey could could have released Escape part 2, Foreigner could have released Foreigner 4- 2.0 and and Styx released The Grand Illusion part 2, and none of them are going to sell a ton of albums in today's music world.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Journey could could have released Escape part 2, Foreigner could have released Foreigner 4- 2.0 and and Styx released The Grand Illusion part 2, and none of them are going to sell a ton of albums in today's music world.

The fact of the matter is, the previous two Arnel Journey albums debuted in the billboard top 20. Freedom didn’t even crack top 50. THAT is the track record Freedom was competing against. All the excuses in the world doesn’t change that.

[Monker]

By today's standards for Classic Rock bands, this is decent.

https://rocknloadmag.com/news/journeys- ... ock-chart/

That is not the chart that matters, this one is:
#88 Billboard 200

In comparison,
Styx' "The Mission"...also their first album in years, reached #45
Def Leppard's last album Drastic Symphonies, reached #54
Bon Jovi, 2020, reached 19
The Stones "Hackney Diamonds" debuted at #1
The Who's last album peaked at #2.
AC/DC Power Up, peaked at #1

And,
Journey, Eclipse, #13
Journey, Revelation, #5

So, no, it's not 'decent'....even for a classic rock band. Yeah, maybe you can find examples of classic rock bands with worse charting albums...but #88 is not typical for Journey.

[Monker]

Journey could could have released Escape part 2, Foreigner could have released Foreigner 4- 2.0 and and Styx released The Grand Illusion part 2, and none of them are going to sell a ton of albums in today's music world.

I don't think this is true at all. If they had done things right, as the Stones did, they would have had a top 10 album.

The songs on Hackney Diamonds are honestly some of the best they have done...and they sound great. Journey had some good songs but they sound like mush.

The stones had guest stars who are huge names in music history: Elton John, Lady Gaga, Paul McCartney, Stevie Wonder. All of which gave them free publicity and easy sales. Journey had NONE, in fact they had a rotating lineup where Randy Jackson was in and out of the band before the album was released...and he was the closest thing to a "guest star".

They released a catchy first song that is typical Stones with a decent video while doing a perfect album rollout. Journey released a blah video for a decent song a year before the album was released that generated no buzz, and with the album so far away it would not matter if it did get any attention...and now it is a joke since the lineup in the video never performed a concert together and no longer exists.

So, IMO, if they had released Escape 2, and did the release properly, IMO they would have had a huge hit. Maybe not a #1 platinum album...but at least something comparable to Revelation and Eclipse.

[Art Vandelay]

Journey could could have released Escape part 2, Foreigner could have released Foreigner 4- 2.0 and and Styx released The Grand Illusion part 2, and none of them are going to sell a ton of albums in today's music world.

I don't think this is true at all. If they had done things right, as the Stones did, they would have had a top 10 album.

The songs on Hackney Diamonds are honestly some of the best they have done...and they sound great. Journey had some good songs but they sound like mush.

The stones had guest stars who are huge names in music history: Elton John, Lady Gaga, Paul McCartney, Stevie Wonder. All of which gave them free publicity and easy sales. Journey had NONE, in fact they had a rotating lineup where Randy Jackson was in and out of the band before the album was released...and he was the closest thing to a "guest star".

They released a catchy first song that is typical Stones with a decent video while doing a perfect album rollout. Journey released a blah video for a decent song a year before the album was released that generated no buzz, and with the album so far away it would not matter if it did get any attention...and now it is a joke since the lineup in the video never performed a concert together and no longer exists.

So, IMO, if they had released Escape 2, and did the release properly, IMO they would have had a huge hit. Maybe not a #1 platinum album...but at least something comparable to Revelation and Eclipse.

The Stones are also on an elite level of their own. Let's be real here.

[Monker]

The Stones are also on an elite level of their own. Let's be real here.

Correct...which is why I said maybe they would not have had a #1 platinum album....but Journey should at least be able to continue the trend of Revelation and especially Eclipse....If they had done a proper release and rolled it out as well as the Stones did. The point with the Stones (and the Who, and AC/DC) is classic rock is not a dead genre...not when they release #1 albums.

[brywool]

Whatever mainstream commercial momentum they had with Revelation was lost by the divisive Eclipse. As with Red 13 and Generations, the band is reaching only the die hard faithful.

I will NEVER get the dislike for Eclipse. Listened to it this am. Thought it was a great album. I preferred it to Freedom, especially production wise. I like reverb, but not so much.
But then I like Let it Rain, Holdin' On, and All Day and All Night, so what do I know?

[The_Noble_Cause]

Whatever mainstream commercial momentum they had with Revelation was lost by the divisive Eclipse. As with Red 13 and Generations, the band is reaching only the die hard faithful.

I will NEVER get the dislike for Eclipse. Listened to it this am. Thought it was a great album. I preferred it to Freedom, especially production wise. I like reverb, but not so much.
But then I like Let it Rain, Holdin' On, and All Day and All Night, so what do I know?

I have enjoyed all of the post-Perry albums. Eclipse's hard rock approach divided fans just like Red 13. It's limited success, however, may have more to do with it not being bundled with a greatest hits package the way Revelation was. I think new music from this band without Perry and without massive promotion is really niche.

[The_Noble_Cause]

In comparison,
Styx' "The Mission"...also their first album in years, reached #45

And yet, strangely, Styx's well received follow-up, Crash of the Crown, performed even worse than Freedom - debuting outside of the top 100.

[Journey/Survivor]

Journey could could have released Escape part 2, Foreigner could have released Foreigner 4- 2.0 and and Styx released The Grand Illusion part 2, and none of them are going to sell a ton of albums in today's music world.

The fact of the matter is, the previous two Arnel Journey albums debuted in the billboard top 20. Freedom didn’t even crack top 50. THAT is the track record Freedom was competing against. All the excuses in the world doesn’t change that.

Even with all of the hype that Journey received from the addition of Pineda and his story, Revelation (With the Pineda story line included) would have sold less albums in 2022 than it did in 2007. Unless something drastic changes, every band is going to sell less and less albums in the near future than they are now even.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Even with all of the hype that Journey received from the addition of Pineda and his story, Revelation (With the Pineda story line included) would have sold less albums in 2022 than it did in 2007. Unless something drastic changes, every band is going to sell less and less albums in the near future than they are now even.

Ok, but again Def Leppard debuted at #1.

[jrnyman28]

I don’t think anyone can argue the Freesom release was horribly flawed. Journey lost a lot when they lost HH, and Azoff never treated them like he did Eagles or Fleetwood. As far back as Back Talk the band was hearing ideas to increase their visibility, raise their status, build new audiences. Yet even the[/b] rare times they tried to take some of those ideas they didn’t quite pull it off. Yet they have still built themselves back to a peak. Let’s not forget that Freedom was a COVID record… So I remain optimistic for that next song/record.

[danielb]

Journey could learn a thing or two from Toto in the way they present themselves. Lots of communication between the members of Toto onstage, while almost zero with Journey. Cain looks like he's about to head into a dentist appointment, Schon is in a world of his own, while Arnel looks like someone who is trying to get over his ex-girlfriend by downing ten shots and bouncing around the dance floor. A hyped up energy but a lack of real connection with the crowd. Even the sidemen in Toto have more presence than their Journey equivalents And then there's the sound quality. Crystal clear with Toto, echo chamber with Journey. In short, Toto comes out on top of this package tour.

[jestor92]

Journey could could have released Escape part 2, Foreigner could have released Foreigner 4- 2.0 and and Styx released The Grand Illusion part 2, and none of them are going to sell a ton of albums in today's music world.

The fact of the matter is, the previous two Arnel Journey albums debuted in the billboard top 20. Freedom didn’t even crack top 50. THAT is the track record Freedom was competing against. All the excuses in the world doesn’t change that.

I’m not going to defend that turd of an album, but I believe Billboard changed their calculations for the charts after Eclipse and before Freedom. I’ve read that streams on stuff like YouTube, Spotify, etc count now whereas previously it was just units moving that counted. 88 on the charts is still very disappointing. I mentioned in the other thread Ace Frehley debuted at 72 and I read he moved around 10-13k physical copies of 10000 Volts. Freedom dropping where it did was a huge failure.

[jestor92]

Even with all of the hype that Journey received from the addition of Pineda and his story, Revelation (With the Pineda story line included) would have sold less albums in 2022 than it did in 2007. Unless something drastic changes, every band is going to sell less and less albums in the near future than they are now even.

Ok, but again Def Leppard debuted at #1.

Leppard are run well, have the vintage vocalist, and never really lost their popularity stateside. Their style of music is also something hard rock and non hard rock fans can pick up. Journey is seen as 40-59 year old moms in vans. I mean that as no disrespect to women in that age range, but that’s the age range that Journey gets.

[Pelata]

Even with all of the hype that Journey received from the addition of Pineda and his story, Revelation (With the Pineda story line included) would have sold less albums in 2022 than it did in 2007. Unless something drastic changes, every band is going to sell less and less albums in the near future than they are now even.

Ok, but again Def Leppard debuted at #1.

Debuted #1 on which chart?

US Billboard 200 it peaked at #10.

[Monker]

Even with all of the hype that Journey received from the addition of Pineda and his story, Revelation (With the Pineda story line included) would have sold less albums in 2022 than it did in 2007. Unless something drastic changes, every band is going to sell less and less albums in the near future than they are now even.

Ok, but again Def Leppard debuted at #1.

Leppard are run well, have the vintage vocalist, and never really lost their popularity stateside.

That is not quite true. First, I remember when Vivian Campbell came in to replace Steven Clark...he was not exactly accepted with open arms and no critique. I remember watching him at the Freddy Mercury tribute concert and felt he just looked odd and did not fit in. The second issue was when "Slang" was released. "Adrenalize" may have been a step down from the massive success of "Hysteria"...But, "Slang" just bombed in the US. IMO, the combination of Clark's death and trying to go Grunge with "Slang" caused a huge loss in popularity in the US...and frankly I do not think they ever fully recovered.

[Monker]

Journey is seen as 40-59 year old moms in vans. I mean that as no disrespect to women in that age range, but that’s the age range that Journey gets.

That may be true, I don't know. But, IMO, Journey has become a band that people turn to for people who were music fans in the 80's....or people who want to pretend to be music fans in the 80's. Funny thing is to me that many of those people were either NOT fans of Journey back then, or were not born or too young to remember. I think for me, it expands beyond soccer mom's...and IMO Journey is sort of stuck with these fans and can't break beyond them.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Even with all of the hype that Journey received from the addition of Pineda and his story, Revelation (With the Pineda story line included) would have sold less albums in 2022 than it did in 2007. Unless something drastic changes, every band is going to sell less and less albums in the near future than they are now even.

Ok, but again Def Leppard debuted at #1.

Debuted #1 on which chart?

US Billboard 200 it peaked at #10.

If I'm wrong, I apologize. I'm not really going to look into it. The point I'm trying to make is, classic rock bands can and do chart pretty successfully. Everything else is just excuses.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Leppard are run well, have the vintage vocalist, and never really lost their popularity stateside. Their style of music is also something hard rock and non hard rock fans can pick up. Journey is seen as 40-59 year old moms in vans. I mean that as no disrespect to women in that age range, but that’s the age range that Journey gets.

One thing is undeniable: the band found rare commercial success again with Arnel and have now lost it.

[jestor92]

Ok, but again Def Leppard debuted at #1.

Leppard are run well, have the vintage vocalist, and never really lost their popularity stateside.[/quote]

That is not quite true. First, I remember when Vivian Campbell came in to replace Steven Clark...he was not exactly accepted with open arms and no critique. I remember watching him at the Freddy Mercury tribute concert and felt he just looked odd and did not fit in. The second issue was when "Slang" was released. "Adrenalize" may have been a step down from the massive success of "Hysteria"...But, "Slang" just bombed in the US. IMO, the combination of Clark's death and trying to go Grunge with "Slang" caused a huge loss in popularity in the US...and frankly I do not think they ever fully recovered.[/quote]
They weren’t moving Hysteria numbers, but Slang still debuted at #14 and went gold. Euphoria peaked at 11, and X at 11. Journey went #3 same year as Slang, Arrival at 56. Outside of Revelations and the re-recorded GH peaking at 5 Journey hasn’t sniffed Leppards success.

[Monker]

They weren’t moving Hysteria numbers, but Slang still debuted at #14 and went gold. Euphoria peaked at 11, and X at 11. Journey went #3 same year as Slang, Arrival at 56. Outside of Revelations and the re-recorded GH peaking at 5 Journey hasn’t sniffed Leppards success.

I'm sorry, but Hysteria is one of the most successful rock albums EVER...with 20million copies sold. Two albums later they drop to only selling Gold? That is a HUGE drop. Not only that but Hysteria had four top 10 singles. Then, after Euphoria, none of their singles are memorable. The only one I remember on the radio has been the cover of "Rock On". Even with the album success, they are no where near recovered from Clark's death and Slang.

My argument is NOT that Journey is better off...they're not. But, just because DL can release a #10 album does NOT mean they did not suffer their own loss of popularity that they never really recovered from.