Perry, Sony, Solo vs. Jrny and the TBF Fall Out

[Enigma869]

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John! Bolton was never in Krokus - he was in Blackjack with Bruce Kulick of Kiss fame tho. Krokus were fronted by a guy called Mark Storace and were crap. The blackjack albums were pretty powerful compared to the garbage he did latterly.

Thanks for straigtening me out on this. I have no idea where I even got that information from. It must have been one hazy night back in the 80's By the way, I can't help but notice your reply looks rather unique with all those lines. This wouldn't be Gordon, would it? If so, I'm glad you finally took my advice and joined us nuts over here

John from Boston

[Monker]

Smith didn't want to be part of the inevitable rebuilding process that was needed minus Perry.....especially considering he had a successful jazz career.

He didn't want to be a permanent member of Journey...PERIOD. He specificaly said that he set time aside to do Journey and he waited, and waited, and waited...until the time he set aside expired and HE had to rebuild HIS band.

[NoMoreTails]

Smith didn't want to be part of the inevitable rebuilding process that was needed minus Perry.....especially considering he had a successful jazz career.

He didn't want to be a permanent member of Journey...PERIOD. He specificaly said that he set time aside to do Journey and he waited, and waited, and waited...until the time he set aside expired and HE had to rebuild HIS band.

Apparently you and I are the one people who read the interview...

[Matthew]

Smith didn't want to be part of the inevitable rebuilding process that was needed minus Perry.....especially considering he had a successful jazz career.

He didn't want to be a permanent member of Journey...PERIOD. He specificaly said that he set time aside to do Journey and he waited, and waited, and waited...until the time he set aside expired and HE had to rebuild HIS band.

And you dodge the question once again....

Here it is one last time...and then I'm giving up.....

How do you explain Smith's interview in the BTM documentary which strongly implied that Perry's departure was a reason for his own decision to leave the band too? No, it wasn't the ONLY reason. But the impression he gave was that it was a factor in his decision.

[Jeremey]

I haven't read many of the pages leading up to this, but I believe Smith was adamant in interviews that this was a "one off" reunion and tour, and that he never had any reason to think the band was going to rebuild with the classic lineup - When it was clear the tour wasn't happening, he moved on.

[Matthew]

I haven't read many of the pages leading up to this, but I believe Smith was adamant in interviews that this was a "one off" reunion and tour, and that he never had any reason to think the band was going to rebuild with the classic lineup - When it was clear the tour wasn't happening, he moved on.

Yes - I accept that Smith has said this - and I read Monker's quote from the interview he gave...but I'm not alone in thinking that Smith implied in the BTM that he had no interest in continuing without Perry...even if it was just for one tour.

[conversationpc]

I haven't read many of the pages leading up to this, but I believe Smith was adamant in interviews that this was a "one off" reunion and tour, and that he never had any reason to think the band was going to rebuild with the classic lineup - When it was clear the tour wasn't happening, he moved on.

Yes - I accept that Smith has said this - and I read Monker's quote from the interview he gave...but I'm not alone in thinking that Smith implied in the BTM that he had no interest in continuing without Perry...even if it was just for one tour.

That's true and I think he also wouldn't have continued with the band after the abandoned tour if they had decided to do another album and/or tour.

[Matthew]

I haven't read many of the pages leading up to this, but I believe Smith was adamant in interviews that this was a "one off" reunion and tour, and that he never had any reason to think the band was going to rebuild with the classic lineup - When it was clear the tour wasn't happening, he moved on.

Yes - I accept that Smith has said this - and I read Monker's quote from the interview he gave...but I'm not alone in thinking that Smith implied in the BTM that he had no interest in continuing without Perry...even if it was just for one tour.

That's true and I think he also wouldn't have continued with the band after the abandoned tour if they had decided to do another album and/or tour.

I agree Dave - he probably wouldn't have done. But Perry's departure seemed to have sealed the deal, as it were.

[SF-Dano]

Yes - I accept that Smith has said this - and I read Monker's quote from the interview he gave...but I'm not alone in thinking that Smith implied in the BTM that he had no interest in continuing without Perry...even if it was just for one tour.

Monker answered you question earlier. You keep insisting that Smith implied that. Smith never said or implied that it was because of a lack of SP being in the band that he did not want to continue. It was simply the way BTM was edited. Did you hear any direct quote on that show of Smitty saying he did not want to continue because "Steve Perry was no longer in the band" or such. It was the BTM producers who created any implications as such by the way they edited in Smitty's comments. They wanted to create more controversy where there was none. I guess they succeeded.

Matthew, just a curious question. In reading many of your posts here, I have noticed a lot of opinions about the musical climate in the USA in the 80s and 90s. Did you live in the states at some point during that time. Not trying to be an ass, just curious, because a good number of your observations (opinions) would not be the same as mine having lived in the US my whole life.

[conversationpc]

Yes - I accept that Smith has said this - and I read Monker's quote from the interview he gave...but I'm not alone in thinking that Smith implied in the BTM that he had no interest in continuing without Perry...even if it was just for one tour.

Monker answered you question earlier. You keep insisting that Smith implied that. Smith never said or implied that it was because of a lack of SP being in the band that he did not want to continue. It was simply the way BTM was edited. Did you hear any direct quote on that show of Smitty saying he did not want to continue because "Steve Perry was no longer in the band" or such. It was the BTM producers who created any implications as such by the way they edited in Smitty's comments. They wanted to create more controversy where there was none. I guess they succeeded.

Matthew, just a curious question. In reading many of your posts here, I have noticed a lot of opinions about the musical climate in the USA in the 80s and 90s. Did you live in the states at some point during that time. Not trying to be an ass, just curious, because a good number of your observations (opinions) would not be the same as mine having lived in the US my whole life.

Hasn't he said on more than one occasion that he wasn't interested if the classic lineup wasn't intact?

[NoMoreTails]

Yes - I accept that Smith has said this - and I read Monker's quote from the interview he gave...but I'm not alone in thinking that Smith implied in the BTM that he had no interest in continuing without Perry...even if it was just for one tour.

Monker answered you question earlier. You keep insisting that Smith implied that. Smith never said or implied that it was because of a lack of SP being in the band that he did not want to continue. It was simply the way BTM was edited. Did you hear any direct quote on that show of Smitty saying he did not want to continue because "Steve Perry was no longer in the band" or such. It was the BTM producers who created any implications as such by the way they edited in Smitty's comments. They wanted to create more controversy where there was none. I guess they succeeded.

Matthew, just a curious question. In reading many of your posts here, I have noticed a lot of opinions about the musical climate in the USA in the 80s and 90s. Did you live in the states at some point during that time. Not trying to be an ass, just curious, because a good number of your observations (opinions) would not be the same as mine having lived in the US my whole life.

Hasn't he said on more than one occasion that he wasn't interested if the classic lineup wasn't intact?

He has said on more than one occasion that he was only interested in a one time reunion album and tour with the "classic lineup"...his intent was to return to his jazz pursuits following the TBF tour.
Does anyone seriously think Smitty had some kind of loyalty to Perry, the one who put the knife in his back, beyond a one time cash in tour that would have followed TBF?

[Enigma869]

Does anyone seriously think Smitty had some kind of loyalty to Perry, the one who put the knife in his back

Well, I think therein lies the rub! People like myself and Matthew wonder about why Smitty would ever have any desire to tour with a guy who according to you "put the knife in his back". I can tell you that I wouldn't sell myself for any amount of money if I truly felt this way about somebody! I guess Smith is just a forgiving kind of guy.

John from Boston

[NoMoreTails]

Does anyone seriously think Smitty had some kind of loyalty to Perry, the one who put the knife in his back

Well, I think therein lies the rub! People like myself and Matthew wonder about why Smitty would ever have any desire to tour with a guy who according to you "put the knife in his back". I can tell you that I wouldn't sell myself for any amount of money if I truly felt this way about somebody! I guess Smith is just a forgiving kind of guy.

John from Boston

Just as alot of us here don't understand why the band took Perry back at all for TBF instead of continuing with the Chalfont/Rolie lineup, but the answer to that one is greed I suppose.
Maybe as a musician Smitty wanted to prove something to them after the way he was shafted for ROR. I think his drumming is better on TBF that on any Journey album he played on.

[Classic Rock]

The way I always felt, that there is excellent Journey, and bad Journey.

Excellent Journey = all the re-issues. Bad Journey = things that don't get re-issued.

I have to say that is a sad way to look at it. First of all the stuff post Perry stuff is too new to be reissued it would make no sense to reissue them now. The PrePerry stuff is not being reissued because Steve Perry is not on them so they are being cast aside. The PrePerry stuff may not be as “commercially acceptable” as the records with Perry but that doesn’t make them bad. I hate that they are being neglected because I would’ve bought them before I bought Steve Perry solo material. I guess I'm part of the minority concerning the PrePerry stuff.

[SF-Dano]

PrePerry stuff may not be as “commercially acceptable” as the records with Perry but that doesn’t make them bad. I hate that they are being neglected because I would’ve bought them before I bought Steve Perry solo material. I guess I'm part of the minority concerning the PrePerry stuff.

I with you on this. Some great muscianship on those first 3 albums.

[junky]

PrePerry stuff may not be as “commercially acceptable” as the records with Perry but that doesn’t make them bad. I hate that they are being neglected because I would’ve bought them before I bought Steve Perry solo material. I guess I'm part of the minority concerning the PrePerry stuff.

I with you on this. Some great muscianship on those first 3 albums.

Me too. It was the first Journey I heard. All the artsy types in my school loved the pre-Perry stuff.
When Perry joined, a lot of kids were upset and never bought anything after Infinty. All the Preppies started listening to Journey. It was great they gained such a huge audience, but they also lost a lot of early supporters.

It's practically come full circle. I have a lot of friends in there 20's and they prefer the pre-Perry stuff.

[Saint John]

The way I always felt, that there is excellent Journey, and bad Journey.

Excellent Journey = all the re-issues. Bad Journey = things that don't get re-issued.

I have to say that is a sad way to look at it. First of all the stuff post Perry stuff is too new to be reissued it would make no sense to reissue them now. The PrePerry stuff is not being reissued because Steve Perry is not on them so they are being cast aside. The PrePerry stuff may not be as “commercially acceptable” as the records with Perry but that doesn’t make them bad. I hate that they are being neglected because I would’ve bought them before I bought Steve Perry solo material. I guess I'm part of the minority concerning the PrePerry stuff.

Pre and Post Perry material is not being re-issued because it wouldn't sell. Honestly, I have no idea why Perry re-issued anything other than Street Talk. FTLOSM is mediocre....at best. Augeri-era material will never be re-issued as it didn't sell the first time. Perry has an angle here other than money folks. Time will tell what that angle is. It's just too much all at once for him not to be positioning himself for something. It has to be new music. I can't think of anything else. If he wanted to make money he would have re-issued the classic Journey albums one at a time. They would sell better that way. The funny thing is that he's using Sony to gauge how popular he still is. The man is not stupid. I'm guessing the sales will sway him to do something in 2007. He's already been recording...that is a FACT. Whether any of it sees the light of day is up to him.

[Granny]

The way I always felt, that there is excellent Journey, and bad Journey.

Excellent Journey = all the re-issues. Bad Journey = things that don't get re-issued.

I have to say that is a sad way to look at it. First of all the stuff post Perry stuff is too new to be reissued it would make no sense to reissue them now. The PrePerry stuff is not being reissued because Steve Perry is not on them so they are being cast aside. The PrePerry stuff may not be as “commercially acceptable” as the records with Perry but that doesn’t make them bad. I hate that they are being neglected because I would’ve bought them before I bought Steve Perry solo material. I guess I'm part of the minority concerning the PrePerry stuff.

Pre and Post Perry material is not being re-issued because it wouldn't sell. Honestly, I have no idea why Perry re-issued anything other than Street Talk. FTLOSM is mediocre....at best. Augeri-era material will never be re-issued as it didn't sell the first time. Perry has an angle here other than money folks. Time will tell what that angle is. It's just too much all at once for him not to be positioning himself for something. It has to be new music. I can't think of anything else. If he wanted to make money he would have re-issued the classic Journey albums one at a time. They would sell better that way. The funny thing is that he's using Sony to gauge how popular he still is. The man is not stupid. I'm guessing the sales will sway him to do something in 2007. He's already been recording...that is a FACT. Whether any of it sees the light of day is up to him.

I sure do hope u are right! I feel something in the wind! New material would be my guess also. It seems about time before he really gets too old to do anything. I figure he has 10 fairly good years left, if his health is good that is.IMHO

[Crazie Scarab]

Does anyone seriously think Smitty had some kind of loyalty to Perry, the one who put the knife in his back

Well, I think therein lies the rub! People like myself and Matthew wonder about why Smitty would ever have any desire to tour with a guy who according to you "put the knife in his back". I can tell you that I wouldn't sell myself for any amount of money if I truly felt this way about somebody! I guess Smith is just a forgiving kind of guy.

John from Boston

From what I tell, one thing Smith has on Perry, is that Smith has always seemed (to me, anyways), to be a happy camper.

[Matthew]

Monker answered you question earlier.

I know NMT has said he believes the BTM was edited to give a false implication. I'll check back through the thread - and apologies to Monker if I missed his answer.

It was simply the way BTM was edited. Did you hear any direct quote on that show of Smitty saying he did not want to continue because "Steve Perry was no longer in the band" or such.

I need to watch that segment again to get the exact wording. In the meantime here's a quote from Ross Valory:

http://www.journeyswag.com/band/ross/faq.html

Q: "Was Steve Smith asked to re-join????

A: "Smitty was asked to re-join. But, after waiting for more than a year for Steve P. on the first round, his jazz career had gone to waste. He re-built it and didn't want to leave it again without re-joining the original line up(with SP)."


Also - from Wikipedia - there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_(band)

"In 1998, the band was beginning to get impatient and pressed Perry for a decision about his hip injury. When Perry refused, Cain and Schon reluctantly decided to continue the band without him. Drummer Smith, believing Journey would not survive without Perry, decided to leave the band as well, in favor of a longstanding jazz project (Vital Information) on which he'd been working prior to the reconstitution of Journey."

It was the BTM producers who created any implications as such by the way they edited in Smitty's comments. They wanted to create more controversy where there was none.

How do you know this? Is there any evidence that the documentary makers deliberately distorted the Steve Smith interview?

Neal Schon once said that the documentary was "candy-coated". So it could be argued that if anything the makers of BTM were avoiding controversy.

Matthew, just a curious question. In reading many of your posts here, I have noticed a lot of opinions about the musical climate in the USA in the 80s and 90s. Did you live in the states at some point during that time. Not trying to be an ass, just curious, because a good number of your observations (opinions) would not be the same as mine having lived in the US my whole life.

SF-Dano - I haven't lived in the States, unfortunately. Which opinions about the musical cimate in the USA are you referring to? I'm not sure what kind of outpost you imagine the UK to be - but we have long been saturated by American culture - and the American rock music scene isn't hard to follow even when you have to go looking for information. But yes...I do have an outsider's perspective and there are probably all kinds of ways I misinterpret the musical climate in the US. Whenever I do just tell me.

[NoMoreTails]

PrePerry stuff may not be as “commercially acceptable” as the records with Perry but that doesn’t make them bad. I hate that they are being neglected because I would’ve bought them before I bought Steve Perry solo material. I guess I'm part of the minority concerning the PrePerry stuff.

I with you on this. Some great muscianship on those first 3 albums.

Me as well, great material which could benefit from remastering, its about money though.

[Arrival09]

Also - from Wikipedia - there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_(band)

"In 1998, the band was beginning to get impatient and pressed Perry for a decision about his hip injury. When Perry refused, Cain and Schon reluctantly decided to continue the band without him. Drummer Smith, believing Journey would not survive without Perry, decided to leave the band as well, in favor of a longstanding jazz project (Vital Information) on which he'd been working prior to the reconstitution of Journey."

You do realize that Wikipedia cannot be taken as a legitimate source, do you not? Anyone can edit Wikipedia articles. They cannot be taken as fact or as a foundation for an argument.

[NoMoreTails]

Pre and Post Perry material is not being re-issued because it wouldn't sell. Honestly, I have no idea why Perry re-issued anything other than Street Talk. FTLOSM is mediocre....at best. Augeri-era material will never be re-issued as it didn't sell the first time. Perry has an angle here other than money folks. Time will tell what that angle is. It's just too much all at once for him not to be positioning himself for something. It has to be new music. I can't think of anything else. If he wanted to make money he would have re-issued the classic Journey albums one at a time. They would sell better that way. The funny thing is that he's using Sony to gauge how popular he still is....

Sony is re-issuing this stuff, not Perry. Of course he's involved but its not like it was his decision. The inlusion of his solo stuff other than Street Talk was probably something Sony agreed to so that he would be involved. Regarding gauging how popular he is, he'll find out he isn't without Journey when comparing his solo sales numbers to the Journey reissues. If anyone is being used, its him being used by Sony, as they stand to make much more than the pennies per cd than Journey and Perry stand to make and whatever Perry makes for his involvement in the profect.

[Matthew]

Also - from Wikipedia - there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_(band)

"In 1998, the band was beginning to get impatient and pressed Perry for a decision about his hip injury. When Perry refused, Cain and Schon reluctantly decided to continue the band without him. Drummer Smith, believing Journey would not survive without Perry, decided to leave the band as well, in favor of a longstanding jazz project (Vital Information) on which he'd been working prior to the reconstitution of Journey."

You do realize that Wikipedia cannot be taken as a legitimate sourse, do you not? Anyone can edit Wikipedia articles. They cannot be taken as fact or as a foundation for an argument.

Okay - ignore that one (although it's interesting that no Journey fan who is unsympathetic toward Perry has tried to edit it out).

What about the Ross Valory quote?

[Chevypv]

Also - from Wikipedia - there's this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journey_(band)

"In 1998, the band was beginning to get impatient and pressed Perry for a decision about his hip injury. When Perry refused, Cain and Schon reluctantly decided to continue the band without him. Drummer Smith, believing Journey would not survive without Perry, decided to leave the band as well, in favor of a longstanding jazz project (Vital Information) on which he'd been working prior to the reconstitution of Journey."

You do realize that Wikipedia cannot be taken as a legitimate source, do you not? Anyone can edit Wikipedia articles. They cannot be taken as fact or as a foundation for an argument.

I have read some studies about the credibility of Wikipedia, and Wikipedia has been found to, on average, have as few errors as a real encyclopedia. Theres enough people who know what they're talking about on there to keep it accurate. Unless some type of vandalism occurs, but that usually gets caught. On the other hand, I dont know about that "not believing Journey could make it without perry" comment...

[SF-Dano]

Okay - ignore that one (although it's interesting that no Journey fan who is unsympathetic toward Perry has tried to edit it out).

What about the Ross Valory quote?

Q: "Was Steve Smith asked to re-join????

A: "Smitty was asked to re-join. But, after waiting for more than a year for Steve P. on the first round, his jazz career had gone to waste. He re-built it and didn't want to leave it again without re-joining the original line up(with SP)."

Well first, the (with SP) generally means that the speaker (Valory) did not actually say that. It generally means the author of the interview added that in an attempt at clarification. That said, this is still Ross's viewpoint or what Ross felt was PC to say. If you review, any of the numerous interviews that any of the guys have done over the years, you will find contridicition everywhere.

Going back to BTM, I do recall Smitty saying something to the effect that coming back for TBF gave him a sense of closure, or something like that. I really believe that he came back for TBF and a tour and that was going to be it. As in Ross's quoted above, he had put his Jazz carreer on hold to.

SF-Dano - I haven't lived in the States, unfortunately. Which opinions about the musical cimate in the USA are you referring to? I'm not sure what kind of outpost you imagine the UK to be - but we have long been saturated by American culture - and the American rock music scene isn't hard to follow even when you have to go looking for information. But yes...I do have an outsider's perspective and there are probably all kinds of ways I misinterpret the musical climate in the US. Whenever I do just tell me.

As far as my experience goes having grown up in Northern California (Bay Area) in the late 80's and early 90s, there was/is in no chance for Journey to regain their popularity from the early 80s, even with SP in the band. Now, I have not gone back through all the pages of this thread, but if I recall correctly you and others seem to imply that if they had waited or would bring back Perry that Journey would be back on top. If I am miss representing your views I am sorry, this thread has been very long. As of the mid 1990s, in the area I live, there was no longer radio airplay, management promotion print or radio, or much interest for the band Journey or many of their fellow "80s" act. TBF may have shipped a million copies, but I would have never known about it at the time. I happened to be flipping thru the dial and heard WYLAW on a adult/soft rock station. I said wow this sounds like Journey. I bought the CD, but I never heard WYLAW or any other tune off TBF again on the radio. And this is in the SF Bay Area, Journey's "home" town. The musical climate in the US since the mid 90s has been nothing but Grunge, hip-hop, bubble gum, & some Metal. And no artist stays on top for more than a couple CD or so. Sure there are a few rock acts that are still going strong, Bon Jovi, Aerosmith, U2, bought this seems to be the only three that the media, and the record companies here will back. The climate maybe changing just a bit now, but for Journey to ever have success like they did in the time of Escape, Frontiers, or even, ROR. Its just not going to happen, with SP or with JSS. Can Journey enjoy a succesful touring carrer? I think the answer is yes. Can they create new music (CDs) and have them sell? In the US, I don't think they are going to do better than Gold, unless there is a drastic change in their musical style. I personally I do not want Journey to sound like, Godsmack or System of Down, or whatever the flavor of the month is here in the US. In Europe I do think their new music has a chance to sell if promoted properly. Which brings me to....

Now my reference to you being in England, and please correct me if I am wrong about this is, that the fans over there really are still into alot of the bands that we don't hear from much overhere anymore. Def Leppard's past few albums and even this one to some extent is getting very little airplay here. Other bands who were once huge hits in America that I thought had broken up years ago, I have found out have just been plying their trade in Europe (Mr. Big, Scorpions, MSG, Dokken, Dio, Yngwie, etc.) And I started learning this when I found this site, thank you Andrew. So I am not trying to bash England or Europe. I am just trying to say that from my point of view, and again correct me if I am wrong, the Rock bands of the 80s and early 90s are still in demand in Europe. In fact I would prefer if our music scene here was more like this. In the US right now there is this disposable thing going on with the kids here. If the music isn't fresh (a month or two) then it ain't worth listening to anymore or ever. The record companies and Radio Moguls I suppose are to blame for this. So again not trying to bash, just trying to get some perspective and discuss.

Sorry for the length.

[Matthew]

If you review, any of the numerous interviews that any of the guys have done over the years, you will find contridicition everywhere.

Yes, that's true.

I really believe that he came back for TBF and a tour and that was going to be it.

Do you know many gigs Journey did between 1998-2000? Might it be possible that Smith was asked to partly fulfill his commitment to do the tour? I know there wasn't an actual TBF tour - but wasn't there a strong desire on desire to do some shows as quickly as possible to try to salvage lost ground? Perhaps this is when Smith said that wasn't interested in carrying on without Perry on board.

As far as my experience goes having grown up in Northern California (Bay Area) in the late 80's and early 90s, there was/is in no chance for Journey to regain their popularity from the early 80s, even with SP in the band. Now, I have not gone back through all the pages of this thread, but if I recall correctly you and others seem to imply that if they had waited or would bring back Perry that Journey would be back on top.

Yes - that's true to some extent. I'm not convinced that Journey would be "back on top" if Perry was still the singer - but I do think it's likely that Journey could have an album in the Top Ten album chart. There are a lot of veteran acts who are still able to achieve this - not just Aerosmith - but acts as diverse as Bob Segar and Lionel Ritchie - all of whom had their heyday two or three decades ago. No - Journey can't recapture the glories of the early 80s - but equally their recording career wouldn't be in the pitiful state it is now. We'll never know though, unfortunately....

As of the mid 1990s, in the area I live, there was no longer radio airplay, management promotion print or radio, or much interest for the band Journey or many of their fellow "80s" act. TBF may have shipped a million copies, but I would have never known about it at the time. I happened to be flipping thru the dial and heard WYLAW on a adult/soft rock station. I said wow this sounds like Journey. I bought the CD, but I never heard WYLAW or any other tune off TBF again on the radio.

But isn't US radio much more 'formatted' or genre-driven than radio is in - say - the UK? At least you heard Journey on an adult/ soft rock station. I don't know enough about US radio though - so were there other stations who were playing melodic rock but not the new Journey record?

And this is in the SF Bay Area, Journey's "home" town.

I've read a few times that Journey have never been loved and accepted in their home town - even during the glory days. It was so sad watching Perry/Schon/Cain at the Bill Graham tribute in 91' in San Francisco. They did "Lights" and no-one was into it at all. The crowd weren't seeeing it as their 'anthem' or the band as local heroes.

This is just what I've read - and saw that one time - so do correct me if I've got the wrong impression.

The musical climate in the US since the mid 90s has been nothing but Grunge, hip-hop, bubble gum, & some Metal. And no artist stays on top for more than a couple CD or so.

Same in the UK....

The climate maybe changing just a bit now, but for Journey to ever have success like they did in the time of Escape, Frontiers, or even, ROR. Its just not going to happen, with SP or with JSS.

I agree. I suppose I'm just hoping they'll have more success than they've had in the years following TBF. It might just be a fan's wishful thinking though...

In the US, I don't think they are going to do better than Gold, unless there is a drastic change in their musical style.

Yes. I think you're probably right about that.

I personally I do not want Journey to sound like, Godsmack or System of Down, or whatever the flavor of the month is here in the US.

That would indeed be a step too far - much as I love S.O.A.D. But I hope they can match the sales of other significant veteran bands with reasonably healthy recording careers.

Def Leppard's past few albums and even this one to some extent is getting very little airplay here. Other bands who were once huge hits in America that I thought had broken up years ago, I have found out have just been plying their trade in Europe (Mr. Big, Scorpions, MSG, Dokken, Dio, Yngwie, etc.) And I started learning this when I found this site, thank you Andrew. So I am not trying to bash England or Europe. I am just trying to say that from my point of view, and again correct me if I am wrong, the Rock bands of the 80s and early 90s are still in demand in Europe. In fact I would prefer if our music scene here was more like this. In the US right now there is this disposable thing going on with the kids here. If the music isn't fresh (a month or two) then it ain't worth listening to anymore or ever. The record companies and Radio Moguls I suppose are to blame for this. So again not trying to bash, just trying to get some perspective and discuss..

To be honest SF Dano - the situation in the UK is exactly the same as it is in the US. If anything it's worse here. Def Leppard last received airplay in around 1989 and we don't have specialist radio stations devoted to rock music here. We don't even have one classic rock station for example. The BBC does have one station which plays a bit of soft rock - but you'll hear all sorts of genres on those shows - from 60s soul to 80s pop.

In fact, rock music barely got any airplay on UK radio even in the 1980s. The national radio station devoted two hours a week to hard rock/metal (and that's where I first heard "Be Good To Yourself"). Yes - there were a handful of rock songs which crossed-over - DL, Heart, Foreigner, Whitesake, Bon Jovi - but we mainly had pop, 'indie' and house music dominating the airwaves.

Rock music hasn't been 'cool' since the mid-70s in the UK. Ever since punk arrived in 1977 rock music has generally been marginalised by the mainstream. And AOR in particular is the most uncool of all. You wouldn't believe how often I got the piss taken out of me for liking Journey, Foreigner, Boston, Reo Spedwagon. In the 80s these bands were 'guilty pleasures' for most people.

Yes - DL could still fill out a mid-level arena in the UK- say 8,000-10,000 - but Dio recently played in London for one night...in a venue holding 2,000 max. As in the States though...U2, Bon Jovi, The Eagles...they can fill out 70,000 seater stadiums.

But in Europe we are perhaps more willing to accept riskier set-lists. These shows are all full of die-hards who'll listen to anything and are possibly more passionate in their response than US fans are. This might account for the positivity American groups tend to feel about touring Europe.

Sorry for the long reply!

[SF-Dano]

Thanks for the reply Matthew. It seems that things are as bad in England as they are here. I was under the impression that some of the bands I listed were still doing well there because they were continuing to create new CDs, but it seems that is not the case. It is nice to learn about how things are over there though, Thank you. One other question, you discussed radio play and concert attendance for "80s" bands in England, but how do the record sales do, if you know? It seems odd that these groups would continue to produce new CDs and that some of the distributors in Europe would continue with these bands if there wasn't some money to be made in sales. I know here, that many bands have resorted to producing their on music as Journey did with Red 13 and I think Generations as well.

I guess as fans all we can do is hope that the youth in our respective countries will change their tastes and force the record companies hands. But I have little faith in that. I know when I was youngster just developing my tastes for Rock music, I was into soaking up as much knowledge as I could from my older friends and siblings about what rock music was "good". I couldn't get enough of the music that came before my time as well as the current music of the time. I loved and still do love Zeppelin, Jeff Beck, Eric Clapton, Hendrix, Deep Purple, Lynrd Skynrd, Rainbow, Rush, CCR,The Who, The Beatles, The animals, Santana, Aerosmith, Ted Nugent, Robin Trower, Montrose and the list goes on. Most kids today here just don't think that anything that came before their most recent memory is worth a damn. However, as I mentioned earlier, I have ran into a few kids recently that are into the older music. I just hope this is the beginning of a trend that brings the Rock Scene back full circle.

Peace to you and thanks again for the discussion.

[Matthew]

One other question, you discussed radio play and concert attendance for "80s" bands in England, but how do the record sales do, if you know?

I just looked up Def Leppard's UK sales/chart record. I'm not a fan of DL's but I guess they are a typical 80s rock group in both the US and UK so are probably a good example.

The last Gold record (60,000 units) was "Slang" which got to Number 5 in the UK in 1996.

However...DL haven't had a Gold record here since...except for one Greatest Hits.

In 2002 "X" got to Number 14....but the "Yeah" album released this year got to Number 54 in the UK.

So DL have definitely become a nostalgia/touring act here.

It seems odd that these groups would continue to produce new CDs and that some of the distributors in Europe would continue with these bands if there wasn't some money to be made in sales. I know here, that many bands have resorted to producing their on music as Journey did with Red 13 and I think Generations as well.

Yes - I've been wondering about the number of European independent record labels specializing in AOR/hard rock/metal - and how they make their money. How is it that Frontiers - an Italian label - can put out a new Journey album when no US company is prepared to?

So maybe it's true that the independent record industry in Europe is more supportive to 80s bands than US indies are? Does anyone know why this is?

Companies such as Frontiers must rely on mail-order pretty heavily - because most record stores - in the UK anyway - mainly stock DVDs now.

Also - maybe there's a strong demand for traditional rock music in the European countries which used to form the Eastern Bloc. Ever since the fall of the Soviet Empire a whole genertion of kids are experiencing this music for the first time - or rather it is being promoted for the first time (it always had an underground following). Metallica recently played in Estonia to 100,000 people and the Prime Minister came to meet them.

I know when I was youngster just developing my tastes for Rock music, I was into soaking up as much knowledge as I could from my older friends and siblings about what rock music was "good". I couldn't get enough of the music that came before my time as well as the current music of the time.

Same here...but I guess we had fewer distractions or competing forms of entertainment. But maybe the download sites will open things up again? Interesting that "Don't Stop Believin'" was a huge download hit last year after it was featured on the OC and another teen show too..I forget which one.

I have ran into a few kids recently that are into the older music. I just hope this is the beginning of a trend that brings the Rock Scene back full circle.

Yes - I think there are some encouraging signs that things are changing. Plus...this is the very first generation of teenagers who don't have a type of music they can call their own. Every genre out there has been around for years...and it's hard to shock anyone who's in their 30s and 40s because we went to such extremes...thrash metal...druggy rave music...and so on...back in the 80s and 90s.

Of course there's always a possibility that we're just a bunch of old farts on this site and are now saying much the same things our parents used to say.

Peace to you and thanks again for the discussion.

Cheers SF - thanks to you too.

[Classic Rock]

Most kids today here just don't think that anything that came before their most recent memory is worth a damn. However, as I mentioned earlier, I have ran into a few kids recently that are into the older music. I just hope this is the beginning of a trend that brings the Rock Scene back full circle.

I have stated this a few times already but younger kids are really starting to get into classic rock music. The problem with that is that they only illegally download the greatest hits and that is it. Most kids will not go out and by any cds from them especially new ones; the only thing most kids buy these days is T-Shirts. Hell I’ve seen some kids wearing Beatles T-Shirts and they can’t even name two songs by them. The younger generation is slowly getting back into rock music but I don’t think they will be the saviors because they just don’t have the money to spend on it. If they do, they choose to spend it else ware. I am one of the very few younger classic rock fans that will support bands like Journey, Styx, Pink Floyd, The Who, Boston, Led Zeppelin, etc. to the fullest extent possible. I have met a few that will venture past the greatest hits but they do not attend the concerts. I can’t talk to anyone at college about classic rock concerts because I have not met anyone that goes to them. I would love if my generation could be the ones to resurrect rock music but unfortunately I don’t see that happening.