What I found out - A Thorough Comparison With Pics & Cli

[Jeremey]

First of all Jeremey, that was very, very interesting. I would like to ask a question, since I'm not in the music business. What is a snare hit exactly? And, to make sure I understand what you found, they were playing the recording track the entire songs, or it comes and goes? Thanks again for the info.

A snare hit is just that, a crack on the snare drum. On the studio version of FITH, there's the doubled guitar buildup, then Deen hits the snare, and the drum buildup, then Steve comes in with the "yeaahhhh, yeah!" On the live version, Deen hits the snare right at the guitar buildup, then cracks it again in the right place for the drum buildup. It's a little different, so I used the second snare hit to line up with the studio version.

And yes, I found the prerecorded vocal track comes and goes. You can see in my 3rd post that I actually hear the prerecorded vocal track "GIVE" overtop of Steve's ending ad lib. It appears Kevin Elson is anticipating where Steve is going to need help and what passages he can manage on his own. If you do it every night, and get paid thousands of dollars, it's pretty easy to get it right.

[EightyRock]

"Do I think they need to answer to their fans? Yeah, I think it's arrogant to assume you don't need to address a situation like this."

This is what has been asked of them and also why they haven't come to their own website to just b.s. with fans for a really long time. They used to have a q & a, but that's been gone for years. Pits says they don't have to come to their site, "because they don't HAVE to". They don't have to address the lip synch allegations "because they don't HAVE to". That is arrogance in its worst form. These are people who have supported you, some go back to the pre-Perry years, but they don't care? Just sell those tickets and get the checks? They've had over 2 weeks to address this since the European segment of the tour was over, but nothing's been said. That speaks volumes and volumes. There's no good way to spin it, especially if this was done last year, too, or possibly longer as some have said. It all comes down to the big machine and $$$$$. I don't know why I ever thought it was about showing their artistry at being THE premier "LIVE" band. Whoever said there is no Santa was right.

[jrnysc]

First of all Jeremey, that was very, very interesting. I would like to ask a question, since I'm not in the music business. What is a snare hit exactly? And, to make sure I understand what you found, they were playing the recording track the entire songs, or it comes and goes? Thanks again for the info.

A snare hit is just that, a crack on the snare drum. On the studio version of FITH, there's the doubled guitar buildup, then Deen hits the snare, and the drum buildup, then Steve comes in with the "yeaahhhh, yeah!" On the live version, Deen hits the snare right at the guitar buildup, then cracks it again in the right place for the drum buildup. It's a little different, so I used the second snare hit to line up with the studio version.

And yes, I found the prerecorded vocal track comes and goes. You can see in my 3rd post that I actually hear the prerecorded vocal track "GIVE" overtop of Steve's ending ad lib. It appears Kevin Elson is anticipating where Steve is going to need help and what passages he can manage on his own. If you do it every night, and get paid thousands of dollars, it's pretty easy to get it right.

Thanks again for the info. Is the snare hit used to keep everything in synch, or just part of the song? Also, what would you assume this means in terms of Augeri's voice, and his ability to carry on for much longer? Once again, this is very interesting stuff to me. I am not a musician, so I have always wondered how some things are done. One last thing and I will leave you alone. Would they be screwed if Augeri didn't feel comfortable, Elson didn't put the vocals in, and Steve didn't sing? Or, would most people not notice?

[conversationpc]

Craig, I warning you, here in public. ONE more threat and you are on your knees in a jail cell in front of a big black guy named, Bubba, got that? I am NOT Andrew. i won't tolerate your Bullshit. Try me fella. See how fucking serious I really am.

OK...This is just a little over the top. There's no excuse for bringing race into it.

[Rockindeano]

OK...This is just a little over the top. There's no excuse for bringing race into it.

First off, I was linking the male anatomy of the "African American" (is that ok), to insinuate an ass pounding in jail. Seeing that you hate the ACLU, I would think you are a republican, so you shouldn't be upset at all about this.

However you are correct.

[odessa]

Craig, I warning you, here in public. ONE more threat and you are on your knees in a jail cell in front of a big black guy named, Bubba, got that? I am NOT Andrew. i won't tolerate your Bullshit. Try me fella. See how fucking serious I really am.

OK...This is just a little over the top. There's no excuse for bringing race into it.

On this point, I too agree.

If the arguments are sound, they will stand on their own merit...without the need to resort to racial stereotypes. Regardless of the reasoning, it was unnecessary and can only serve to alienate others who might support his cause.

Right now, he needs all the support he can get!

[AR]

So arrivalrules, the one you staunchly defended against me early on, is NOW a total misguided twit? She listened for herself, and has changed sides.

He, Deano, he. I'm a dude. LOL

[Journey/Survivor]

No one in their right mind would sue someone who can lambaste their ass. Journey knows this. Yes, Davey is beating Goliath, and some here aren't too happy about it.

Oh by the way, tonights show....all lipped.

Deano, I'm not legal counsel by any means but I can offer you this advice.....KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!!! Stick to just the facts. The silence of Journey's management tells me that they're waiting for you to fuck up so that they can divert the truth with some technicality. Even though Pit is an asshole and a complete puke, ignore his BS. Let him threaten me. I'll take the heat. I even left my cell # on a post. I welcome his call. Keep it legal and factual...Best way to win...no war of words.

Let's just say for a momment that Deano is either insane or is at least mistaken anyway? If Journey (or any band for that matter) respond to his claims it will open the door for any other insane or mistaken person who wants to make false claims! If Journey respond and tell everyone that they have never lip-synced in concert it would send the message that they have to respond to every insane or mistaken accusation, and that if they don't respond in the future then all of the anti-Journey people will say "you see, their hidding something."

If I were Journey (or again any band at all) I would NOT respond to this either, even if I knew it were false, because it would invite future morons to make more insane claims!

[wildone]

No one in their right mind would sue someone who can lambaste their ass. Journey knows this. Yes, Davey is beating Goliath, and some here aren't too happy about it.

Oh by the way, tonights show....all lipped.

Deano, I'm not legal counsel by any means but I can offer you this advice.....KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT!!! Stick to just the facts. The silence of Journey's management tells me that they're waiting for you to fuck up so that they can divert the truth with some technicality. Even though Pit is an asshole and a complete puke, ignore his BS. Let him threaten me. I'll take the heat. I even left my cell # on a post. I welcome his call. Keep it legal and factual...Best way to win...no war of words.

Let's just say for a momment that Deano is either insane or is at least mistaken anyway? If Journey (or any band for that matter) respond to his claims it will open the door for any other insane or mistaken person who wants to make false claims! If Journey respond and tell everyone that they have never lip-synced in concert it would send the message that they have to respond to every insane or mistaken accusation, and that if they don't respond in the future then all of the anti-Journey people will say "you see, their hidding something."

If I were Journey (or again any band at all) I would NOT respond to this either, even if I knew it were false, because it would invite future morons to make more insane claims!

yeah but if its on tv and radio well you think they might wanna dispell the rummor and do away with all the headaches and move on and let this all die out as fast at it came up ...well you'd think they would...hmmmmm

[Rockindeano]

Jeremy,

I want to thank you for your work on this. Of course no one really talked about it here, they resorted to the emotional card, and the slinging.

You helped prove the point.

Thanks.

Any boot you want, let me know.

Dean

[Jeremey]

Jeremy,

I want to thank you for your work on this. Of course no one really talked about it here, they resorted to the emotional card, and the slinging.

You helped prove the point.

Thanks.

Any boot you want, let me know.

Dean

Hey man,
No problem. The reason I went through all of this material was partly to show that the original bootleg material was not doctored, and was widely available via trading sites, and it's origins were easily verified. The other reason I went through this was because I wanted to show that no matter what kind of evidence was shown (thus the screen shots, etc), there would still be people sticking their fingers in their ears, essentially saying they would not believe this was happening unless Steve Augeri came to their house in a limo, rang their doorbell, and personally explained that the band had been using prerecorded LEAD vocals to get through their shows. Which is basically what half the naysayers did, and then the other half have said, "even still, so what, everyone is doing it." So it's really a non-issue to the people on this site. People are going to believe what they want to believe. Anyway, thanks for reading the posts, folks, hopefully it's helped explain things a little more clearly...

[Eric]

I'd like to see comparisons for some other shows if possible. All we keep seeing is the same 2-3 shows compared....

Here's the thing.....I know what I heard for the shows I attended...and I'd like to see if one of these "bootlegs" matched it

[jrnysc]

Jeremy,

I want to thank you for your work on this. Of course no one really talked about it here, they resorted to the emotional card, and the slinging.

You helped prove the point.

Thanks.

Any boot you want, let me know.

Dean

Hey man,
No problem. The reason I went through all of this material was partly to show that the original bootleg material was not doctored, and was widely available via trading sites, and it's origins were easily verified. The other reason I went through this was because I wanted to show that no matter what kind of evidence was shown (thus the screen shots, etc), there would still be people sticking their fingers in their ears, essentially saying they would not believe this was happening unless Steve Augeri came to their house in a limo, rang their doorbell, and personally explained that the band had been using prerecorded LEAD vocals to get through their shows. Which is basically what half the naysayers did, and then the other half have said, "even still, so what, everyone is doing it." So it's really a non-issue to the people on this site. People are going to believe what they want to believe. Anyway, thanks for reading the posts, folks, hopefully it's helped explain things a little more clearly...

Jeremy, once again I appreciate the work you have done and the questions you have answered on this. I am one of the ones who have said IT APPEARS most all big bands do this TO SOME EXTENT. Do you have any insight on this, and do you feel most bands use either vocals or music pre-recorded during shows? My opinion came from a couple of articles I read that were posted on this site.

[Raised on Journey]

Are you guys really arguing about this? It's just music!!! Not national security or world hunger....music! You know... that thing we all listen to for FUN. Good Lord.

[Jeremey]

As information, I will be removing all audio clips from my server over the next 12 hours or so. I think everyone's heard the clips that wants to hear them, and although there is nothing illegal in hosting short (>1:00) clips for the purpose of educational discussion, it appears that CJ over at BT has already started laying the groundwork for some sort of legal threats. Having signed for registered letters from Journey's legal team before, it is not something I wish to get involved in again. Whether or not it is legal or right is not the argument when dealing with deep pockets.

[JrnySuxBalls]

It's not the bootlegs that are the problem, it's what they demonstrate.

Sorry you're getting hassled.

[wildone]

It's not the bootlegs that are the problem, it's what they demonstrate.

Sorry you're getting hassled.

dang now there trying the tough guy tactics ...lmao wow seems like it would be easier and cheaper if they just say yah we did it ...sorry lets move on ...but no!!!

[tammy]

Thanks, Jeremey for your comprehensive explanation - I may not understand it fully, but I appreciate learning how things work, especially where music is concerned.

[swepett]

I am one of the ones who have said IT APPEARS most all big bands do this TO SOME EXTENT. Do you have any insight on this, and do you feel most bands use either vocals or music pre-recorded during shows? My opinion came from a couple of articles I read that were posted on this site.

I would say most bands do not use pre-recorded music or vocals in their live show. Some do, but absolutely not most bands.

[NYer]

Funkytown, 1979.

[jim]

Not really related and probably off topic.

Looking at the waveforms on page 1 a comment was made that the audio was better on the Vegas show compared to the Manchester tape..

Vegas track looks compressed to the point where it almost clips (this is a method much too used these days to make a sound louder)

IMHO this just crowds the other sounds.

Whilst I do have the Vegas DVD and Havent heard the other I'm for anything where the peaks can be seen without flattening out at the top and bottom end.

Tis for this reason I enjoy so much to listen to early non remastered albums like Dire Straits Brothers In Arms, early Boston, TOTO, Queen, Journey (yes non remastered please) and Fleetwood Mac albums.

Modern dance/rap/shit 'group' of your choice acts if you were to put one of those CD's in your player you just about pop yer speakers on 1 or 2 on the dial with the amount of dynamic compression on em these days..

Just my rant..

[JrnySuxBalls]

Yeah, record companies somehow got the idea that they don't want someone else's CD louder
than yours in a CD changer, so mastering labs are instructed to crank up and compress the
snot out of everything. This includes DVDs as well. Good sound & dynamics are thown out the
window cuz they figure people don't care.

A smart listener can figure out where the volume knob is.

[swepett]

There was a good site on this called [url]loudnesswar.com[/url] but apparently that site suffered a hardware crash. But they are linking to an article in Wikipedia that seems to cover the basics and then some:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war