Ugly Betty

[Big J]

I admire your passion for it, but this is a terrible idea. No offense. Journey's last surviving draw as an artist is the die hard classic rock fan. Unless radio were gonna support it (which they won't, with the "Journey" label on it) - it doesn't stand a chance and would ultimately turn away more fans than it'd bring in.

The only "big idea" that might work that's left is a tour with Perry.

No offense taken. I'm a "retired" artist and I learned a long time ago that you can't please everyone.

If JOURNEY is in a desperate position with only one last surviving draw then that's scary.

It's not their fault they're in that position, it's the nature of the business today.

There are no long term musical acts of the new crop. Every rock band that's at the top of the game right now will be completely forgotten in 5 years...it's a disposable genre now. Matchbox 20 begat Creed who begat Nickleback who will give way to someone else in a year or so. Kinda sad. Anything older than two summers ago is gone.

Since the 1950s - since rock n roll began - the vast majority of bands have enjoyed a short shelf-life. It's always been the nature of the business.

Of course they have. The vast majority don't have hits.

Also - some old melodic rock bands continue to enjoy huge success - such as Bon Jovi and Aerosmith.

Exceptions to the rule and established before the rule became vogue. So do the Stones, Rod Stewart, etc.

So I disagree that it's everyone else's fault. Journey are at least partly responsible for the decline.

I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I'd liken today's music scene to the 70's and disco.

Hey, everyone loved that song "Good Times." Who was the artist? You don't know do you? It was Chic. One of the bigger disco artists there was in the era, had a few other hits, but nobody would know that. The acts were all disposable. Same with today's rock. Your major record selling artists will have a lifespan, the Britney Spearses and Christina Aguileras and Justin Timberlakes and a few of the rap artists. But in the rock world, they're disposable.

I'm sorry but anybody with even a rudimentary knowledge of pop music knows that "Good Times" was by Chic.

Of course. You know it, and I know it. The average record buyer doesn't.

There are hundreds of examples of 'disposable' acts in the 60s and the 80s too. And as for today...I'd say that the highest turnover of artists is in the RnB, hip-hop and house/techno scenes - because this music is essentially club music and driven by 12" mixes rather than albums.

Absolutely. Always been a habit of the record companies. Not until now has it really, REALLY hit mainstream rock though

Rock music? Well, the Foo Fighters, Oasis, Coldplay, Radiohead and Keane are just some of the bands who have emerged in recent years who have longevity.

How many, of those, will have a million seller if they put a record out tomorrow. Foo Fighters and possibly Radiohead. Coldplay's got a dark horse shot.

Or do you mean hard rock/AOR? Well, this genre peaked twenty years ago - so perhaps this type of music is just exhausted now?

Good point...I think it may be.

I think the best bet for a band of Journey's mold is, honetsly, to cater to their stereotype, whether they want to or not. WYLAW was precisely the right move. Yes, by that point their remaining audience was mostly mid 30's women. Cater to them in the format they now listen to and the format they most identify you with.

Trying to go "rock" with Faith in the Heartland or State of Grace or whatever is not going to move records, and it wont anyway because the label isn't backing them (no label is now).

Only the select few bands in their shoes can branch out a bit (Rod Stewart) without it being a complete disaster (Bon Jovi - This left Feels Right)

[Matthew]

I admire your passion for it, but this is a terrible idea. No offense. Journey's last surviving draw as an artist is the die hard classic rock fan. Unless radio were gonna support it (which they won't, with the "Journey" label on it) - it doesn't stand a chance and would ultimately turn away more fans than it'd bring in.

The only "big idea" that might work that's left is a tour with Perry.

No offense taken. I'm a "retired" artist and I learned a long time ago that you can't please everyone.

If JOURNEY is in a desperate position with only one last surviving draw then that's scary.

It's not their fault they're in that position, it's the nature of the business today.

There are no long term musical acts of the new crop. Every rock band that's at the top of the game right now will be completely forgotten in 5 years...it's a disposable genre now. Matchbox 20 begat Creed who begat Nickleback who will give way to someone else in a year or so. Kinda sad. Anything older than two summers ago is gone.

Since the 1950s - since rock n roll began - the vast majority of bands have enjoyed a short shelf-life. It's always been the nature of the business.

Of course they have. The vast majority don't have hits.

Also - some old melodic rock bands continue to enjoy huge success - such as Bon Jovi and Aerosmith.

Exceptions to the rule and established before the rule became vogue. So do the Stones, Rod Stewart, etc.

So I disagree that it's everyone else's fault. Journey are at least partly responsible for the decline.

I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make. I'd liken today's music scene to the 70's and disco.

Hey, everyone loved that song "Good Times." Who was the artist? You don't know do you? It was Chic. One of the bigger disco artists there was in the era, had a few other hits, but nobody would know that. The acts were all disposable. Same with today's rock. Your major record selling artists will have a lifespan, the Britney Spearses and Christina Aguileras and Justin Timberlakes and a few of the rap artists. But in the rock world, they're disposable.

I'm sorry but anybody with even a rudimentary knowledge of pop music knows that "Good Times" was by Chic.

Of course. You know it, and I know it. The average record buyer doesn't.

There are hundreds of examples of 'disposable' acts in the 60s and the 80s too. And as for today...I'd say that the highest turnover of artists is in the RnB, hip-hop and house/techno scenes - because this music is essentially club music and driven by 12" mixes rather than albums.

Absolutely. Always been a habit of the record companies. Not until now has it really, REALLY hit mainstream rock though[quote]

quote]

I agree that record companies give less time for artists to develop than they used to - but it's not totally bleak out there. Take System of a Down - the best thing to happen to heavy metal since Metallica. They're five albums into their career and going from strength to strength - mainly because they've brought some originality to the genre. They're not pretty...and they're not 'manufactured' in any way. In fact, on paper they're a lousy prospect - who would have guessed that metal and Armenian folk music would be a winning combination? But they are cleaning up because - unlike every other new rock band - they sound fresh. They don't make you feel, 'I've heard this a million times before.' Will they be remembered in twenty years time? I reckon they will.

My point is...we can keep blaming the industry and the times for the failure of the music we love - but in the end the real problem is the mediocrity of the rock bands themselves - both old and new - who are out there at the moment. When something great comes along it can still take off and get the industry backing it needs.

[Big J]

Good points all. What's original and fresh will (almost) always surface to the top and stick around awhile (provided the obvious - that they get noticed in the first place). And yeah, when the scene goes dry it goes dry and even established acts will fade away. But Journey hadn't gone dry, they were abandoned by the genre and by their record company, as was DL.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Arrival album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the X album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Generations album.

There are bonafide radio hits on all three - at any other time in recent history. Their labels have done the unthinkable. Abandoned money making potential. It flat out makes no sense.

They came to their senses with DL and pushed Yeah a bit. Whether or not a second single gets a chance, we'll see. They're obviously not brain surgeons, they chose the worst song on the disc as the first single.

[Matthew]

Good points all. What's original and fresh will (almost) always surface to the top and stick around awhile (provided the obvious - that they get noticed in the first place). And yeah, when the scene goes dry it goes dry and even established acts will fade away. But Journey hadn't gone dry, they were abandoned by the genre and by their record company, as was DL.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Arrival album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the X album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Generations album.

There are bonafide radio hits on all three - at any other time in recent history. Their labels have done the unthinkable. Abandoned money making potential. It flat out makes no sense.

They came to their senses with DL and pushed Yeah a bit. Whether or not a second single gets a chance, we'll see. They're obviously not brain surgeons, they chose the worst song on the disc as the first single.

But Big J...there's absolutely nothing great about Arrival or Generations either. Journey needed to perform at a much higher level than they did to overcome the loss of Perry. Sure, they're competant AOR albums - but they weren't magical or surprising in any way. Surely this was the problem?

[NealIsGod]

Good points all. What's original and fresh will (almost) always surface to the top and stick around awhile (provided the obvious - that they get noticed in the first place). And yeah, when the scene goes dry it goes dry and even established acts will fade away. But Journey hadn't gone dry, they were abandoned by the genre and by their record company, as was DL.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Arrival album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the X album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Generations album.

There are bonafide radio hits on all three - at any other time in recent history. Their labels have done the unthinkable. Abandoned money making potential. It flat out makes no sense.

They came to their senses with DL and pushed Yeah a bit. Whether or not a second single gets a chance, we'll see. They're obviously not brain surgeons, they chose the worst song on the disc as the first single.

But Big J...there's absolutely nothing great about Arrival or Generations either. Journey needed to perform at a much higher level than they did to overcome the loss of Perry. Sure, they're competant AOR albums - but they weren't magical or surprising in any way. Surely this was the problem?

MATTHEW, Journey could write the next Stairway to Heaven and it wouldn't get airplay and there would still be certain biased "fans" who blast it. Just the way it is.

[Matthew]

NIG - was radio really so different ten years ago when Journey last released a popular single and album? Maybe it is...I'm the UK...so I have no idea what US radio is like now. Aren't there niche stations for old farts like us? Are Bon Jovi and Aerosmith ignored on all playlists? What's the situation over there?

[A Fire Inside]

Bon Jovi is ignored on the radio. The only places I hear their classics are 80s stations.

Maybe their recent aongs are played on Top 40, I don't know.

[jrnyman28]

Bon Jovi is ignored on the radio. The only places I hear their classics are 80s stations.

Maybe their recent aongs are played on Top 40, I don't know.

They are all over AC and now Country stations. They get some Top40 play also...but it is mostly AC stations...

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Good points all. What's original and fresh will (almost) always surface to the top and stick around awhile (provided the obvious - that they get noticed in the first place). And yeah, when the scene goes dry it goes dry and even established acts will fade away. But Journey hadn't gone dry, they were abandoned by the genre and by their record company, as was DL.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Arrival album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the X album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Generations album.

There are bonafide radio hits on all three - at any other time in recent history. Their labels have done the unthinkable. Abandoned money making potential. It flat out makes no sense.

They came to their senses with DL and pushed Yeah a bit. Whether or not a second single gets a chance, we'll see. They're obviously not brain surgeons, they chose the worst song on the disc as the first single.

But Big J...there's absolutely nothing great about Arrival or Generations either. Journey needed to perform at a much higher level than they did to overcome the loss of Perry. Sure, they're competant AOR albums - but they weren't magical or surprising in any way. Surely this was the problem?

MATTHEW, Journey could write the next Stairway to Heaven and it wouldn't get airplay and there would still be certain biased "fans" who blast it. Just the way it is.

This is EXACTLY why they need to do something DIFFERENT and FRESH!

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Good points all. What's original and fresh will (almost) always surface to the top and stick around awhile (provided the obvious - that they get noticed in the first place). And yeah, when the scene goes dry it goes dry and even established acts will fade away. But Journey hadn't gone dry, they were abandoned by the genre and by their record company, as was DL.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Arrival album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Generations album.

There are bonafide radio hits on [both] - at any other time in recent history.

What's wrong with it is that it's "old." It's "old" music for an "old" audience. Nothing has become a radio hit because the "old" audience does NOT want to hear anything new. The "old" audience wants to relive the 80's and hear the DD until death do us part. The "old" audience is helping JOURNEY to pay the light bills but it will never catapult them back among the stars.

JOURNEY needs to reach out to a NEW audience - one that is hungry for NEW music. It's called looking into the future! This can be done with respect to the past but with sights to the future.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Good points all. What's original and fresh will (almost) always surface to the top and stick around awhile (provided the obvious - that they get noticed in the first place). And yeah, when the scene goes dry it goes dry and even established acts will fade away. But Journey hadn't gone dry, they were abandoned by the genre and by their record company, as was DL.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Arrival album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Generations album.

There are bonafide radio hits on [both] - at any other time in recent history.

What's wrong with it is that it's "old." It's "old" music for an "old" audience. Nothing has become a radio hit because the "old" audience does NOT want to hear anything new. The "old" audience wants to relive the 80's and hear the DD until death do us part. The "old" audience is helping JOURNEY to pay the light bills but it will never catapult them back among the stars.

JOURNEY needs to reach out to a NEW audience - one that is hungry for NEW music. It's called looking into the future! This can be done with respect to the past but with sights to the future.

I wanted to reply to myself and expand on something. When JOURNEY brought in SP they lost much of their "old" or established audience however they gained a much younger and larger one. Why? Because Columbia House and Herbie said they needed to in order to "make it."

It's not great artists that make a band. It's not great songs or even great management. What makes a band is a great audience. This is why SP says, "Thanks!" to the audience on the Captured album. "We're indebted to YOU for letting us be on YOUR album - we have to thank you for that - this YOUR album, you know." I quoted that from memory so please correct me if I'm wrong. SP also thanks the audience on the Houston DVD for making E5C4P3 #1 in the nation.

It's all about the audience.

The current JOURNEY audience is akin to the pre-Infinity JOURNEY audience. It's taken JOURNEY as far as it can. It's time to reach out to a broader, younger audience. That doesn't mean to forget who has helped you get where you are. It simply means that you can't ignore those who can help take you further.

[Big J]

But Big J...there's absolutely nothing great about Arrival or Generations either.

This is where you and I are gonna have to agree to disagree, I think. Because I feel on this point, you're flat wrong. Both of these albums stand up just fine against anything Journey's ever done.

The following songs, at one point or another, could have been released as singles and been radio hits.

Higher Place
All the Way
With Your Love
Lifetime of Dreams
To Be Alive Again
Nothin' Comes Close
Faith in the Heartland
Place in Your Heart

And other people would add to that list. Now I'm not saying they're top 10 hits. But they're all Billboard 100 worthy, and there's a couple top 10's in there easily. On today's radio. Easily. Both those albums should have been easy million sellers with some record company backing. Neal Schon's said it himself...the record company turned its back on the Arrival album. It shouldn't have been that way.

[Matthew]

But Big J...there's absolutely nothing great about Arrival or Generations either.

This is where you and I are gonna have to agree to disagree, I think. Because I feel on this point, you're flat wrong. Both of these albums stand up just fine against anything Journey's ever done.

The following songs, at one point or another, could have been released as singles and been radio hits.

Higher Place
All the Way
With Your Love
Lifetime of Dreams
To Be Alive Again
Nothin' Comes Close
Faith in the Heartland
Place in Your Heart

And other people would add to that list. Now I'm not saying they're top 10 hits. But they're all Billboard 100 worthy, and there's a couple top 10's in there easily. On today's radio. Easily. Both those albums should have been easy million sellers with some record company backing. Neal Schon's said it himself...the record company turned its back on the Arrival album. It shouldn't have been that way.

What about "A Better Life"? I reckon that song was their best chance of connecting with most 'classic Journey fans'.

[Big J]

Good points all. What's original and fresh will (almost) always surface to the top and stick around awhile (provided the obvious - that they get noticed in the first place). And yeah, when the scene goes dry it goes dry and even established acts will fade away. But Journey hadn't gone dry, they were abandoned by the genre and by their record company, as was DL.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Arrival album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Generations album.

There are bonafide radio hits on [both] - at any other time in recent history.

What's wrong with it is that it's "old." It's "old" music for an "old" audience. Nothing has become a radio hit because the "old" audience does NOT want to hear anything new. The "old" audience wants to relive the 80's and hear the DD until death do us part. The "old" audience is helping JOURNEY to pay the light bills but it will never catapult them back among the stars.

JOURNEY needs to reach out to a NEW audience - one that is hungry for NEW music. It's called looking into the future! This can be done with respect to the past but with sights to the future.

There's no new audience because there's no new audience being marketed to. I do this crap for a living, not with music, but for a family entertainment venue in an entertainment heavy market. You don't get new customers if you don't go to them and show them what you've got to offer.

That's what radio's for. That's what the record company's job is. To promote its artists to radio to get the stations to play their artists' music so that listeners buy the damned albums.

Arrival was flat out NOT marketed AT ALL in the United States. The album was released and there it sat, and unless you tripped over a copy in the aisle at Tower you had no clue unless you were a diehard fan or went to a concert.

[Big J]

But Big J...there's absolutely nothing great about Arrival or Generations either.

This is where you and I are gonna have to agree to disagree, I think. Because I feel on this point, you're flat wrong. Both of these albums stand up just fine against anything Journey's ever done.

The following songs, at one point or another, could have been released as singles and been radio hits.

Higher Place
All the Way
With Your Love
Lifetime of Dreams
To Be Alive Again
Nothin' Comes Close
Faith in the Heartland
Place in Your Heart

And other people would add to that list. Now I'm not saying they're top 10 hits. But they're all Billboard 100 worthy, and there's a couple top 10's in there easily. On today's radio. Easily. Both those albums should have been easy million sellers with some record company backing. Neal Schon's said it himself...the record company turned its back on the Arrival album. It shouldn't have been that way.

What about "A Better Life"? I reckon that song was their best chance of connecting with most 'classic Journey fans'.

Sure, I didnt include it because I think the song's boring. But sure.

Honestly on this subject I get way more pissed off about DL's X than I do Arrival. I think it was an even more palatable product for the market today and was even more wronged. Totally ignored and dropped for dead while comparatively horrible offerings from Bon Jovi get pushed to the moon.

[Matthew]

Good points all. What's original and fresh will (almost) always surface to the top and stick around awhile (provided the obvious - that they get noticed in the first place). And yeah, when the scene goes dry it goes dry and even established acts will fade away. But Journey hadn't gone dry, they were abandoned by the genre and by their record company, as was DL.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Arrival album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Generations album.

There are bonafide radio hits on [both] - at any other time in recent history.

What's wrong with it is that it's "old." It's "old" music for an "old" audience. Nothing has become a radio hit because the "old" audience does NOT want to hear anything new. The "old" audience wants to relive the 80's and hear the DD until death do us part. The "old" audience is helping JOURNEY to pay the light bills but it will never catapult them back among the stars.

JOURNEY needs to reach out to a NEW audience - one that is hungry for NEW music. It's called looking into the future! This can be done with respect to the past but with sights to the future.

There's no new audience because there's no new audience being marketed to. I do this crap for a living, not with music, but for a family entertainment venue in an entertainment heavy market. You don't get new customers if you don't go to them and show them what you've got to offer.

That's what radio's for. That's what the record company's job is. To promote its artists to radio to get the stations to play their artists' music so that listeners buy the damned albums.

Arrival was flat out NOT marketed AT ALL in the United States. The album was released and there it sat, and unless you tripped over a copy in the aisle at Tower you had no clue unless you were a diehard fan or went to a concert.

There's no doubt that record company apathy was partly responsible - but it can't be denied that the majority of Journey fans didn't like the album much.

[Big J]

Good points all. What's original and fresh will (almost) always surface to the top and stick around awhile (provided the obvious - that they get noticed in the first place). And yeah, when the scene goes dry it goes dry and even established acts will fade away. But Journey hadn't gone dry, they were abandoned by the genre and by their record company, as was DL.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Arrival album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Generations album.

There are bonafide radio hits on [both] - at any other time in recent history.

What's wrong with it is that it's "old." It's "old" music for an "old" audience. Nothing has become a radio hit because the "old" audience does NOT want to hear anything new. The "old" audience wants to relive the 80's and hear the DD until death do us part. The "old" audience is helping JOURNEY to pay the light bills but it will never catapult them back among the stars.

JOURNEY needs to reach out to a NEW audience - one that is hungry for NEW music. It's called looking into the future! This can be done with respect to the past but with sights to the future.

There's no new audience because there's no new audience being marketed to. I do this crap for a living, not with music, but for a family entertainment venue in an entertainment heavy market. You don't get new customers if you don't go to them and show them what you've got to offer.

That's what radio's for. That's what the record company's job is. To promote its artists to radio to get the stations to play their artists' music so that listeners buy the damned albums.

Arrival was flat out NOT marketed AT ALL in the United States. The album was released and there it sat, and unless you tripped over a copy in the aisle at Tower you had no clue unless you were a diehard fan or went to a concert.

There's no doubt that record company apathy was partly responsible - but it can't be denied that the majority of Journey fans didn't like the album much.

Sure it can. The majority of Steve Perry nuts didnt like it simply because it was not him singing, and for no other reason. The majority of Journey fans didnt even hear the damned thing...that's the problem.

And the job of management and record companies in this situation is to market to EVERYONE. Not just Journey fans. Otherwise you're guaranteed failure.

And i'll go further. I don't know a single Jounrey fan (who's not a Steve Perry obsessed one) who honestly thinks there isn't ONE good song on Arrival. And let's face it, that's all a record needs is one. Trial by Fire had more but the success it got from mainstream record buyers was from hearing WYLAW.

[Matthew]

Good points all. What's original and fresh will (almost) always surface to the top and stick around awhile (provided the obvious - that they get noticed in the first place). And yeah, when the scene goes dry it goes dry and even established acts will fade away. But Journey hadn't gone dry, they were abandoned by the genre and by their record company, as was DL.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Arrival album.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Generations album.

There are bonafide radio hits on [both] - at any other time in recent history.

What's wrong with it is that it's "old." It's "old" music for an "old" audience. Nothing has become a radio hit because the "old" audience does NOT want to hear anything new. The "old" audience wants to relive the 80's and hear the DD until death do us part. The "old" audience is helping JOURNEY to pay the light bills but it will never catapult them back among the stars.

JOURNEY needs to reach out to a NEW audience - one that is hungry for NEW music. It's called looking into the future! This can be done with respect to the past but with sights to the future.

There's no new audience because there's no new audience being marketed to. I do this crap for a living, not with music, but for a family entertainment venue in an entertainment heavy market. You don't get new customers if you don't go to them and show them what you've got to offer.

That's what radio's for. That's what the record company's job is. To promote its artists to radio to get the stations to play their artists' music so that listeners buy the damned albums.

Arrival was flat out NOT marketed AT ALL in the United States. The album was released and there it sat, and unless you tripped over a copy in the aisle at Tower you had no clue unless you were a diehard fan or went to a concert.

There's no doubt that record company apathy was partly responsible - but it can't be denied that the majority of Journey fans didn't like the album much.

Sure it can. The majority of Steve Perry nuts didnt like it simply because it was not him singing, and for no other reason. The majority of Journey fans didnt even hear the damned thing...that's the problem.

And the job of management and record companies in this situation is to market to EVERYONE. Not just Journey fans. Otherwise you're guaranteed failure.

And i'll go further. I don't know a single Jounrey fan (who's not a Steve Perry obsessed one) who honestly thinks there isn't ONE good song on Arrival. And let's face it, that's all a record needs is one. Trial by Fire had more but the success it got from mainstream record buyers was from hearing WYLAW.

I reckon it's all quite simple. Journey used to have the greatest singer of their generation and were successful. Then they didn't have the greatest singer of their generation and they were unsuccessful.

Spin it however you want - but most Journey fans love Steve Perry and are not interested in buying music by the band which doesn't feature The Voice.

And I don't think this argument makes me a Loon. It's just the reality.

If you still enjoy Journey without Perry, then great. But it's a mistake to have high expectations about the band or make excuses about the record company or the times. Journey's failure since 1998 is all down to Perry's departure.

Deep down you must know that's true, right?

[Big J]

Like I said, we'll agree to disagree. I know this much. Most Journey fans love good music. There's some good music on Arrival that I wish most Journey fans woulda heard...casual, loon, or otherwise.

[Matthew]

Like I said, we'll agree to disagree. I know this much. Most Journey fans love good music. There's some good music on Arrival that I wish most Journey fans woulda heard...casual, loon, or otherwise.

Some songs were okay - but there was no soul or passion on the record. Dated AOR-by-numbers, I reckon.

Plus most Loons probably have heard the record...

Arrival sold around 250,000 in its first year yet the ongoing sales since then have been pretty slow, to put it kindly. So it didn't generate the word-of-mouth which every successful album needs.

[Big J]

No promotion'll do that to ya.

[Matthew]

But Big J...you've dodged my point....250,000 people is enough to start a buzz...to start word-of-mouth...but it just didn't happen. Or am I wrong about this?

[Wheels Of Fyre]

But Big J...you've dodged my point....250,000 people is enough to start a buzz...to start word-of-mouth...but it just didn't happen. Or am I wrong about this?

Not if the 250,000 copies were bought by the tired, "old" fans! Record sales have and will always be driven by the younger audiences. Did you really expect the younger audience to go running to the stores upon hearing "Grandpa" say, "Hey - check out the new JOURNEY album, Arrival - it's cool!" Nobody listens to the older generation.

I was just speaking with someone at work today about this. She said, "JOURNEY - when I think of them I think of 'old.'"



Recording "old" music to satisfy an "old" audience and then touring with the "old" greatest hits gets old fast.

A what if: if SP were with JOURNEY do you think for one minute he'd be satisfied with the endless greatest hits tours? I doubt it because like he said regarding the pre-E5C4P3 music, "We took that type of music as far as we could - you need to make changes otherwise you'll dry up and blow away."

JOURNEY needs a FRESH and clever recording to attract a FRESH, young audience.

[Matthew]

But Big J...you've dodged my point....250,000 people is enough to start a buzz...to start word-of-mouth...but it just didn't happen. Or am I wrong about this?

Not if the 250,000 copies were bought by the tired, "old" fans! Record sales have and will always be driven by the younger audiences. Did you really expect the younger audience to go running to the stores upon hearing "Grandpa" say, "Hey - check out the new JOURNEY album, Arrival - it's cool!" Nobody listens to the older generation.

I was just speaking with someone at work today about this. She said, "JOURNEY - when I think of them I think of 'old.'"



Recording "old" music to satisfy an "old" audience and then touring with the "old" greatest hits gets old fast.

A what if: if SP were with JOURNEY do you think for one minute he'd be satisfied with the endless greatest hits tours? I doubt it because like he said regarding the pre-E5C4P3 music, "We took that type of music as far as we could - you need to make changes otherwise you'll dry up and blow away."

JOURNEY needs a FRESH and clever recording to attract a FRESH, young audience.

Fyre - what happened to the 750,000 tired old Journey fans who bought TBF. Where did they go? How come the oldies who bought Arrival weren't able to pursuade all the other oldies?

I agree - there's no way Perry would slog his way around America year after year playing the Greatest Hits - and yes I hope Journey will - for the first time since Perry's departure - try to develop a distinctive new era in the band's career.

[Matthew]

But Big J...you've dodged my point....250,000 people is enough to start a buzz...to start word-of-mouth...but it just didn't happen. Or am I wrong about this?

Not if the 250,000 copies were bought by the tired, "old" fans! Record sales have and will always be driven by the younger audiences. Did you really expect the younger audience to go running to the stores upon hearing "Grandpa" say, "Hey - check out the new JOURNEY album, Arrival - it's cool!" Nobody listens to the older generation.

I was just speaking with someone at work today about this. She said, "JOURNEY - when I think of them I think of 'old.'"



Recording "old" music to satisfy an "old" audience and then touring with the "old" greatest hits gets old fast.

A what if: if SP were with JOURNEY do you think for one minute he'd be satisfied with the endless greatest hits tours? I doubt it because like he said regarding the pre-E5C4P3 music, "We took that type of music as far as we could - you need to make changes otherwise you'll dry up and blow away."

JOURNEY needs a FRESH and clever recording to attract a FRESH, young audience.

Fyre - what happened to the 750,000 tired old Journey fans who bought TBF. Where did they go? How come the oldies who bought Arrival weren't able to pursuade all the other oldies?

I agree - there's no way Perry would slog his way around America year after year playing the Greatest Hits - and yes I hope Journey will - for the first time since Perry's departure - try to develop a distinctive new era in the band's career.

[Big J]

But Big J...you've dodged my point....250,000 people is enough to start a buzz...to start word-of-mouth...but it just didn't happen. Or am I wrong about this?

Nah, didn't dodge it. Fyre nailed where I was coming from. The 250k are diehards. Diehards only do not a chart-topper make.

Not only that, but a good number of record sales were lost to the album leak. All the Way should have been pushed to radio, and it would have done fine, and they would have gone from there. The album deserved promotion.

On top of all that, word of mouth only goes so far if you can't find the record in stores. They even short-shipped the fucking thing.

Try to find a copy of Arrival in a record store today. You'll go a few places before you succeed. I don't think it shipped to Wal Marts at all.

[Matthew]

But Big J...you've dodged my point....250,000 people is enough to start a buzz...to start word-of-mouth...but it just didn't happen. Or am I wrong about this?

Nah, didn't dodge it. Fyre nailed where I was coming from. The 250k are diehards. Diehards only do not a chart-topper make.

Not only that, but a good number of record sales were lost to the album leak. All the Way should have been pushed to radio, and it would have done fine, and they would have gone from there. The album deserved promotion.

On top of all that, word of mouth only goes so far if you can't find the record in stores. They even short-shipped the fucking thing.

Try to find a copy of Arrival in a record store today. You'll go a few places before you succeed. I don't think it shipped to Wal Marts at all.

It's on iTunes though isn't it?

[Big J]

Yeah. What's the percentage of the record buying public that uses iTunes? Seriously, I don't know. Less than half, I'll bet money. More were using Napster when the thing leaked.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Fyre - what happened to the 750,000 tired old Journey fans who bought TBF. Where did they go? How come the oldies who bought Arrival weren't able to pursuade all the other oldies?

I agree - there's no way Perry would slog his way around America year after year playing the Greatest Hits - and yes I hope Journey will - for the first time since Perry's departure - try to develop a distinctive new era in the band's career.

I supposed they thinned out like their hairlines (mine included). The TBF audience was boosted by the reuniting of the "classic" lineup. As soon as they broke up again those 750,000 JOURNEY fans thinned to the 250,000 diehards that bought ARRIVAL.

I'm just trying to be objective. People want to blame the music industry, radio, management, record labels, and every thing and every one else for JOURNEY's perceived decline in popularity. I'm going to argue that it's none of those. It's THE AUDIENCE that makes or breaks a band.

I used to perform mime and magic shows (even used JOURNEY music for some sketches). I'm a HUGE fan of Charlie Chaplin and Marcel Marceau so my subject matter bordered on poignant comedy. This material was attractive to elementary schools and nursing homes. See there? The age group in between had no interest because the material was founded upon the innocence of life and teenagers-middle aged people are looking for art that pumps them up or takes them away. My material was appealing only to the innocent young and the aged who are waiting for their final day to come. My audiences LOVED the stuff I did but I could never make a living off of them. How could I charge the young or the aged and sleep at night? So my work was always on a volunteer basis.

As I said before. JOURNEY is playing to an audience that will help them pay the light bill but it will never catapult them back among the stars. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what JOURNEY wants however let's accept that and not run madly about playing a blame game.

[Matthew]

Yeah. What's the percentage of the record buying public that uses iTunes? Seriously, I don't know. Less than half, I'll bet money. More were using Napster when the thing leaked.

Oh...I'm sure your right that Napster was the most popular choice in 2001...but we're talking about ongoing sales...and Arrival is available on the most popular download site now...in the Journey section with all the other albums.

The ongoing sales of Perry era Journey are incredible. I read somewhere that the majority of the 75 million sales came after 1990. Journey are one of the few rock bands who have an 'evergreen' back catalogue. And last year DSB became one of the most downloaded tracks ever.

So does Arrival have that same timeless quality? Does Arrival have a high recommendation rate? Are all the millions of Journey fans who are currently downloading Journey songs also downloading Arrival? It seems not - but perhaps someone can correct me?