MY Opinion

[fred_journeyman]

All I can say is 77-83 & 86 ticket sales were huge.So were album sales(add TBF to album sales) The band post '98 were only somewhat more sucessful than pre '77 Journey and that is because they could tour on Perry era hits.

I've said before, so why not say it again? I think Journey's time has past. I'll wait and see and I'll be surprised if they do any better with Jeff on lead vocals than with Augeri. Frankly, I truly don't think it would be all that much better (for a sustained period of time) even if Perry came back. Last I checked, he didn't want to...but I'll double check next time I talk with him...

[squirt1]

Fred -most fans left with Perry. How else could you explain going from stadiums to rodeos. Neither Perry or Journey are as big unless on the same stage.I always hear that music has changed or no promotion was done. Well if promoters saw a return on their advertising $$ as in 30-60,000 tickets they would be promoting all over radio & TV. Tell BonJovi or Aerosmith it is over because music has changed.If anything kids today want real live music and that is why our bands are in demand. Ask DL too. Jeff will be an improvement,but the elephant in the corner of the room is still you know who.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I've said before, so why not say it again? I think Journey's time has past. I'll wait and see and I'll be surprised if they do any better with Jeff on lead vocals than with Augeri.

The upside is, now with Jeff, the band might do promotional appearances again.
Even still, I don't expect a charting hit from the band ever again and I really don't care.
They stand to reach more people by continuing to hand out cds at shows.

[Granny]

Abitaman wrote:
Augeri brougt a more personal approach to the music.

Brought MORE of a personal approach than Perry? Maybe on the tune or two that he wrote or co-wrote. Augeri brought a more personal touch to Butterfly to be certain. (did they play it live? I'm not sure). As far as Augeri doing anything personal with the classic catalog that Perry didn't do (as writer or co-writer), you have soared far, far into the galaxy and
landed on Uranus. Try again.

Not Uranus--Pluto--the dwarf one now.!!! I saw SA perform live--the only thing I can say is that he was personal with the audience.

Strange - SA barely spoke to the audience when I saw him. But this was in June this year...so I didn't catch him in his prime.

I saw SA June of this year too, and he was terrible. He kept going to the side of the piano and using an inhaler. His voice cracked and he sang only about 5 songs. I was speaking of last years 30th anniversary tour. Saw them twice on that tour.
Granny

PS Is anyone going to Columbia sc on Nov, 2. Please say yes. would love to meet up with someone.

[Matthew]

Tell BonJovi or Aerosmith it is over because music has changed.If anything kids today want real live music and that is why our bands are in demand. Ask DL too. Jeff will be an improvement,but the elephant in the corner of the room is still you know who.

I totally agree....

[junky]

The upside is, now with Jeff, the band might do promotional appearances again.
Even still, I don't expect a charting hit from the band ever again and I really don't care.
They stand to reach more people by continuing to hand out cds at shows.

Yeah, I don't care if they chart either. The charts today are mostly crap.

By including a CD in the price of a ticket a la Generations, they reach more people and make more money than going with a label.

[Matthew]

The upside is, now with Jeff, the band might do promotional appearances again.
Even still, I don't expect a charting hit from the band ever again and I really don't care.
They stand to reach more people by continuing to hand out cds at shows.

Yeah, I don't care if they chart either. The charts today are mostly crap.

By including a CD in the price of a ticket a la Generations, they reach more people and make more money than going with a label.

I don't think Journey should accept defeat. It might be too late for the band - and it might be too much of an uphill struggle without Perry - but nonetheless they need to start this new era of the band by aiming big. And the idea of Journey having a hit album on the Billboard chart seems much more inspiring than giving away some low-budget recording at a concert.

I get the impression that Journey have lowered the bar so far that too many fans have developed an acceptance of mediocrity and underachievement - something which would have been unimaginable in 1996.

[The_Noble_Cause]

By including a CD in the price of a ticket a la Generations, they reach more people....

Yup.
Which is why I was dumbstruck to read that Neal wasn't actively involved in compling the track list of "Generations".
His apathy for the Augeri lineup ran so deep that he essentially left it up to Management while he had fun out on the road with Jeff in SoulSirkus.

I don't begrudge Neal for wanting to get away from Journey, but I can't understand why he wouldn't strive to make "Generations" the best album possible; especially when it was their first album in a loooong time guranteed to reach sooo many people.

If Neal had stuck around to help with the track list I have a feeling "It's Never Too Late" wouldn't have been undeservedly delegated to bonus track status.

[junky]

Since the CD sales were a given at the shows, the track listing didn't matter that much.

Including Never Too Late on the retail version gave the concert goers a reason to purchase it.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I will add this: you make it sound as if SA can't even carry a tune! Of course, SA is in the same league as SP!

Did you mean to type "isn't" in the same league? I hope so - because you've just said "they're absolutely not comparable".

I meant "IS IN". You want to make comparisons and I'll say here like I've said on BT and elsewhere: comparing the two is a disservice to both artists.

I bought "Arrival", "Red 13" and "Generations". I went to see the Augeri line-up in concert. I've even listened to a few tracks off the Tall Stories CD. Is there anything more I can do to give him "a fair listen"?

Stop comparing him to SP...? NAH - forget it - that's too much to ask. You've already passed judgment based on unfair expectations. You want SA to live up to what you think he should sound like: SP.

You can't sing like Augeri - but you can sing like Perry? Well, Fyre - you are clearly an extraordinary talent too.

Not really. You'd think I'd be able to sing like SA considering that he sucks. He does stuff that's very difficult for me to grasp. I can't figure out how he does certain things and probably never will as my voice simply isn't suited for his acrobatics.

Wailing like Perry is easy if you have a high girlie voice like him which I've been cursed with. It's simply a matter of hanging on the edge of the falsetto: breath control and minimal effort. Trying to hang with SA takes a more manly voice and maximum effort.

By the way...I take it you're only talking about Perry's voice when he was young? On the later records he too sounded "down to earth and in control" - and there was no "wailing in desperation".

I disagree. His trademark was about desperation: reaching out, holding on, calling out, etc. Lyrically and performance-wise.

BOTTOM LINE: they each have their own merits and contributions and are msot definitely in the same league.

Fyre - I can't argue with your subjective appreciation of Auger's voice over Perry's. I think you're tone deaf - but equally it might just be a question of taste.

HOWEVER....to say that Augeri's contribution to development of Journey's career is "in the same league" as Perry's is factually incorrect. Whichever criteria you use...commercial success...number of classic songs most loved by the fans...fame...respect....Steve Perry comes out on top. That's why Journey are STILL playing a setlist co-written by Perry...and not a single song co-written by Augeri.

Actually, I'm trying to be objective. You're taking this where it's NOT meant to go! "In the same league" means that they're both great singers equally capable of fronting JOURNEY. Look I could go on about this BUT I'd rather point out the ridiculousness of your argument.

You want to say that SP is in another league because he beats out SA in any criteria. The problem with this is MANY. This is like arguing who was the greatest NFL running back Jim Brown or Walter Payton? This can NOT be resolved as these were two equally great players who played in two very different times and under very different circumstances. Your comparison is an exercise in futility and is a disservice to both artists. I suppose SP was Jim Brown and SA is Walter Payton - now JSS is Emmett Smith!

Where do the comparisons end and the recognition of individual merits begin?

Well, you introduced the comparison between SA and SP into this thread. This started out as a discussion of "Mother Father" so you can't be that weary of it.

That was a mistake and I wish I could take it back.

Yes, I probably am a Perry fanatic - but equally I can see that Augeri did well to keep Journey on the road for eight years. He does deserve credit for this - even though I personally would rather Journey had called it a day in 1998 - or waited to record one more album with Perry. And the albums? He did an okay job. However..."okay" just isn't good enough for a band like Journey.

Again, if you think his singing has just been "OK" then I would argue that you really haven't listened.

[Saint John]

I will add this: you make it sound as if SA can't even carry a tune! Of course, SA is in the same league as SP!

Did you mean to type "isn't" in the same league? I hope so - because you've just said "they're absolutely not comparable".

I meant "IS IN". You want to make comparisons and I'll say here like I've said on BT and elsewhere: comparing the two is a disservice to both artists.

I bought "Arrival", "Red 13" and "Generations". I went to see the Augeri line-up in concert. I've even listened to a few tracks off the Tall Stories CD. Is there anything more I can do to give him "a fair listen"?

Stop comparing him to SP...? NAH - forget it - that's too much to ask. You've already passed judgment based on unfair expectations. You want SA to live up to what you think he should sound like: SP.

You can't sing like Augeri - but you can sing like Perry? Well, Fyre - you are clearly an extraordinary talent too.

Not really. You'd think I'd be able to sing like SA considering that he sucks. He does stuff that's very difficult for me to grasp. I can't figure out how he does certain things and probably never will as my voice simply isn't suited for his acrobatics.

Wailing like Perry is easy if you have a high girlie voice like him which I've been cursed with. It's simply a matter of hanging on the edge of the falsetto: breath control and minimal effort. Trying to hang with SA takes a more manly voice and maximum effort.

By the way...I take it you're only talking about Perry's voice when he was young? On the later records he too sounded "down to earth and in control" - and there was no "wailing in desperation".

I disagree. His trademark was about desperation: reaching out, holding on, calling out, etc. Lyrically and performance-wise.

BOTTOM LINE: they each have their own merits and contributions and are msot definitely in the same league.

Fyre - I can't argue with your subjective appreciation of Auger's voice over Perry's. I think you're tone deaf - but equally it might just be a question of taste.

HOWEVER....to say that Augeri's contribution to development of Journey's career is "in the same league" as Perry's is factually incorrect. Whichever criteria you use...commercial success...number of classic songs most loved by the fans...fame...respect....Steve Perry comes out on top. That's why Journey are STILL playing a setlist co-written by Perry...and not a single song co-written by Augeri.

Actually, I'm trying to be objective. You're taking this where it's NOT meant to go! "In the same league" means that they're both great singers equally capable of fronting JOURNEY. Look I could go on about this BUT I'd rather point out the ridiculousness of your argument.

You want to say that SP is in another league because he beats out SA in any criteria. The problem with this is MANY. This is like arguing who was the greatest NFL running back Jim Brown or Walter Payton? This can NOT be resolved as these were two equally great players who played in two very different times and under very different circumstances. Your comparison is an exercise in futility and is a disservice to both artists. I suppose SP was Jim Brown and SA is Walter Payton - now JSS is Emmett Smith!

Where do the comparisons end and the recognition of individual merits begin?

Well, you introduced the comparison between SA and SP into this thread. This started out as a discussion of "Mother Father" so you can't be that weary of it.

That was a mistake and I wish I could take it back.

Yes, I probably am a Perry fanatic - but equally I can see that Augeri did well to keep Journey on the road for eight years. He does deserve credit for this - even though I personally would rather Journey had called it a day in 1998 - or waited to record one more album with Perry. And the albums? He did an okay job. However..."okay" just isn't good enough for a band like Journey.

Again, if you think his singing has just been "OK" then I would argue that you really haven't listened.

Let me get this straight. Perry is Jim Brown. I can agree with that. Augeri is Walter Payton? Are you fuckin' nuts? Augeri was a "never was" until Journey recruited him. His subsequent albums with Journey flopped. Bring in all the "it's a different time" and "if Arrival were released in the 80's" arguments you want. The music wasn't good therefore Journey fans DIDN"T buy the records. Red 13 sold about 30 copies and they had to extort money from fans to get Generations into CD players. Please issue a public apology to the Paytons. What a terrible analogy. Payton was the real deal. Augeri, with the rest of the band, resorted to less than live shows. However, in the end, HE was the one NOT doing his job. Something you could NEVER accuse Walter Payton of. I live IN the city of Chicago and that man was the epitomy of class, character, hard work, values and family. He would have NEVER cheated.

[junky]

The upside is, now with Jeff, the band might do promotional appearances again.
Even still, I don't expect a charting hit from the band ever again and I really don't care.
They stand to reach more people by continuing to hand out cds at shows.

Yeah, I don't care if they chart either. The charts today are mostly crap.

By including a CD in the price of a ticket a la Generations, they reach more people and make more money than going with a label.

I don't think Journey should accept defeat. It might be too late for the band - and it might be too much of an uphill struggle without Perry - but nonetheless they need to start this new era of the band by aiming big. And the idea of Journey having a hit album on the Billboard chart seems much more inspiring than giving away some low-budget recording at a concert.

I get the impression that Journey have lowered the bar so far that too many fans have developed an acceptance of mediocrity and underachievement - something which would have been unimaginable in 1996.

Mathew, i agree with everything that you are saying, but, these days in America, having a chart hit is not the end all be all.

You are spoiled in the UK, your hits have much more integrity than ours.
This is an American band, Billboard hits are bought here, now. Do you really what a Journey who buys their popularity, or a band that just rocks.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Let me get this straight. Perry is Jim Brown. I can agree with that. Augeri is Walter Payton? Are you fuckin' nuts? Augeri was a "never was" until Journey recruited him. His subsequent albums with Journey flopped. Bring in all the "it's a different time" and "if Arrival were released in the 80's" arguments you want. The music wasn't good therefore Journey fans DIDN"T buy the records. Red 13 sold about 30 copies and they had to extort money from fans to get Generations into CD players. Please issue a public apology to the Paytons. What a terrible analogy. Payton was the real deal. Augeri, with the rest of the band, resorted to less than live shows. However, in the end, HE was the one NOT doing his job. Something you could NEVER accuse Walter Payton of. I live IN the city of Chicago and that man was the epitomy of class, character, hard work, values and family. He would have NEVER cheated.

You just don't get it. You also lack JOURNEY History 101.

It's an absolutely fitting analogy. First I'm the biggest Walter Payton fan in Ohio. I grew up in northern Ohio west of Cleveland and it wasn't easy being a Payton fan considering I was in the land of Jim Brown aka "God." Get it now?

The point is: Jim Brown was arguably the first "great" RB in the post-Jim Thorpe era. Jim Brown became God. Much like SP has become God. The argument in Cleveland was this: It took Payton 13 years to do what Brown did in 9!

WRONG! Cleveland fans are the GREATEST - they know ALL about every sport. I love that city but when it comes to JB they've placed him so high on a pedestal that they can't be objective. It didn't take WP 13 years to break JB's record. WP played a total of 13 years to JB's 9. WP broke the record in his 10th year against the Saints. Dang - now my brain is failing. Or was it his 11th year...?

Regardless, it's not even a matter of years or number of games played. It's a matter of yards per carry. I think JB had a lifetime 5.5 and WP had 4.7 - my memory is failing me again! The point being is that this doesn't even matter. What matters is that Jim Brown became God just like SP has become God. Walter Payton NEVER got the credit he deserved in Cleveland. I used to call up radio shows and slam them for this. It didn't matter. JB is God and nothing will ever change that. Just like SP has become God.

Are you getting my point yet?

About JOURNEY 101: you say SA was a "never was." I recall a certain SP mucking chicken coops before JOURNEY called him up to bat.

So it's SA's fault for every perceived JOURNEY failure? Ridiculous! I will say again what I believe: IT'S THE FAULT OF THE FANS.

The fans are choking the life out of JOURNEY in so many ways. Giving SP the status of God certainly doesn't breathe life into JOURNEY!

"THE VOICE" - good grief, why don't you call him "THE CHRIST" and "THE WAY" and be done with it! The fans haven't supported SA from the beginning because SP is the Jim Brown of singers - God.

Are you getting my point yet? I doubt it. You're more interested in placing blame on someone than you are seeking after the truth. Hey - what am I saying. I'm the one who's supposed to be scared of the truth.

You want to say that Tapegate was true. We'll probably never know. Moreover if it is true then we'll probably never know why. Personally, I'm sure JOURNEY had GOOD reason for doing so. You sound like those Jim Brown worshippers who want to argue everything they can about Walter Payton - true or false - fact and fiction in order to discredit him and maintain JB's Godly status.

Geez - I hope you're getting my point!

[Abitaman]

The only thing I will say about Perry VS Augeri
To me Sales does not equal success
Just because an album sells good does not mean it is good or I like it
If an album sells poorly doesn't mean it sucks or not any good
Journey has sold millions with Perry and they are great cds
With Augeri they have sold thousands, and they are in the same league, music wise.-ERIC

[Enigma869]

Let me get this straight. Perry is Jim Brown. I can agree with that. Augeri is Walter Payton? Are you fuckin' nuts? Augeri was a "never was" until Journey recruited him. His subsequent albums with Journey flopped. Bring in all the "it's a different time" and "if Arrival were released in the 80's" arguments you want. The music wasn't good therefore Journey fans DIDN"T buy the records. Red 13 sold about 30 copies and they had to extort money from fans to get Generations into CD players. Please issue a public apology to the Paytons. What a terrible analogy. Payton was the real deal. Augeri, with the rest of the band, resorted to less than live shows. However, in the end, HE was the one NOT doing his job. Something you could NEVER accuse Walter Payton of. I live IN the city of Chicago and that man was the epitomy of class, character, hard work, values and family. He would have NEVER cheated.

You just don't get it. You also lack JOURNEY History 101.

It's an absolutely fitting analogy. First I'm the biggest Walter Payton fan in Ohio. I grew up in northern Ohio west of Cleveland and it wasn't easy being a Payton fan considering I was in the land of Jim Brown aka "God." Get it now?

The point is: Jim Brown was arguably the first "great" RB in the post-Jim Thorpe era. Jim Brown became God. Much like SP has become God. The argument in Cleveland was this: It took Payton 13 years to do what Brown did in 9!

WRONG! Cleveland fans are the GREATEST - they know ALL about every sport. I love that city but when it comes to JB they've placed him so high on a pedestal that they can't be objective. It didn't take WP 13 years to break JB's record. WP played a total of 13 years to JB's 9. WP broke the record in his 10th year against the Saints. Dang - now my brain is failing. Or was it his 11th year...?

Regardless, it's not even a matter of years or number of games played. It's a matter of yards per carry. I think JB had a lifetime 5.5 and WP had 4.7 - my memory is failing me again! The point being is that this doesn't even matter. What matters is that Jim Brown became God just like SP has become God. Walter Payton NEVER got the credit he deserved in Cleveland. I used to call up radio shows and slam them for this. It didn't matter. JB is God and nothing will ever change that. Just like SP has become God.

Are you getting my point yet?

About JOURNEY 101: you say SA was a "never was." I recall a certain SP mucking chicken coops before JOURNEY called him up to bat.

So it's SA's fault for every perceived JOURNEY failure? Ridiculous! I will say again what I believe: IT'S THE FAULT OF THE FANS.

The fans are choking the life out of JOURNEY in so many ways. Giving SP the status of God certainly doesn't breathe life into JOURNEY!

"THE VOICE" - good grief, why don't you call him "THE CHRIST" and "THE WAY" and be done with it! The fans haven't supported SA from the beginning because SP is the Jim Brown of singers - God.

Are you getting my point yet? I doubt it. You're more interested in placing blame on someone than you are seeking after the truth. Hey - what am I saying. I'm the one who's supposed to be scared of the truth.

You want to say that Tapegate was true. We'll probably never know. Moreover if it is true then we'll probably never know why. Personally, I'm sure JOURNEY had GOOD reason for doing so. You sound like those Jim Brown worshippers who want to argue everything they can about Walter Payton - true or false - fact and fiction in order to discredit him and maintain JB's Godly status.

Geez - I hope you're getting my point!

Sorry Fyre. I'm with Saint John on this one. Your analogy is ridiculous! For the record, I'm not someone who has ever bashed Augeri. I've always thought the guy had a good singing voice, and was rather shocked to read about the "Tapegate" allegations. It's not really about the fans giving a singer a shot. The material that is put out will always stand on its on merit, if it's good enough. I recall MANY Van Halen fans not giving Hagar a shot and "5150" sold more copies than almost everything Van Halen ever put out (5150 was the very first release with Hagar singing lead!)

Honestly, I think Augeri was actually given a "shot" by many Journey fans, just because so many of them thought he did a decent job sounding similar to Perry on the classics. I can tell you I was a Journey fan who never wanted to listen to Journey without Perry singing. That said, I watched the 2001 DVD and thought Augeri did a good job. I also thought Arrival was extremely good. All that said, Augeri isn't in the same league with Perry, period, end of story! The only thing Perry and Augeri have in common is that they both sang lead in Journey, at one point. Augeri isn't going to be remembered for making any Journey "history" when the final chapter of this book named Journey is written. I'm quite sure that Perry's place in Journey's history is cemented for life, whether you like the guy or not! The reality is that if Perry was never "called up to bat", as you put it...Journey would have never become what they became, and they wouldn't even have a page on the melodic rock site for fans to be talking about them. Perhaps this is why some fans think Perry is "God", as you put it! You can minimize Perry's role with Journey all day long, but it won't change what history has shown us!

Also, while I have no problem with your support of Augeri, you're being EXREMELY hypocritical getting on Perry fans for putting Augeri down. You're doing the exact same thing with Perry. Your agenda is quite clear. Your comments about Perry's "girly" voice and how anyone can sing in Perry's range clearly show your agenda here!

John from Boston

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Let me get this straight. Perry is Jim Brown. I can agree with that. Augeri is Walter Payton? Are you fuckin' nuts? Augeri was a "never was" until Journey recruited him. His subsequent albums with Journey flopped. Bring in all the "it's a different time" and "if Arrival were released in the 80's" arguments you want. The music wasn't good therefore Journey fans DIDN"T buy the records. Red 13 sold about 30 copies and they had to extort money from fans to get Generations into CD players. Please issue a public apology to the Paytons. What a terrible analogy. Payton was the real deal. Augeri, with the rest of the band, resorted to less than live shows. However, in the end, HE was the one NOT doing his job. Something you could NEVER accuse Walter Payton of. I live IN the city of Chicago and that man was the epitomy of class, character, hard work, values and family. He would have NEVER cheated.

You just don't get it. You also lack JOURNEY History 101.

It's an absolutely fitting analogy. First I'm the biggest Walter Payton fan in Ohio. I grew up in northern Ohio west of Cleveland and it wasn't easy being a Payton fan considering I was in the land of Jim Brown aka "God." Get it now?

The point is: Jim Brown was arguably the first "great" RB in the post-Jim Thorpe era. Jim Brown became God. Much like SP has become God. The argument in Cleveland was this: It took Payton 13 years to do what Brown did in 9!

WRONG! Cleveland fans are the GREATEST - they know ALL about every sport. I love that city but when it comes to JB they've placed him so high on a pedestal that they can't be objective. It didn't take WP 13 years to break JB's record. WP played a total of 13 years to JB's 9. WP broke the record in his 10th year against the Saints. Dang - now my brain is failing. Or was it his 11th year...?

Regardless, it's not even a matter of years or number of games played. It's a matter of yards per carry. I think JB had a lifetime 5.5 and WP had 4.7 - my memory is failing me again! The point being is that this doesn't even matter. What matters is that Jim Brown became God just like SP has become God. Walter Payton NEVER got the credit he deserved in Cleveland. I used to call up radio shows and slam them for this. It didn't matter. JB is God and nothing will ever change that. Just like SP has become God.

Are you getting my point yet?

About JOURNEY 101: you say SA was a "never was." I recall a certain SP mucking chicken coops before JOURNEY called him up to bat.

So it's SA's fault for every perceived JOURNEY failure? Ridiculous! I will say again what I believe: IT'S THE FAULT OF THE FANS.

The fans are choking the life out of JOURNEY in so many ways. Giving SP the status of God certainly doesn't breathe life into JOURNEY!

"THE VOICE" - good grief, why don't you call him "THE CHRIST" and "THE WAY" and be done with it! The fans haven't supported SA from the beginning because SP is the Jim Brown of singers - God.

Are you getting my point yet? I doubt it. You're more interested in placing blame on someone than you are seeking after the truth. Hey - what am I saying. I'm the one who's supposed to be scared of the truth.

You want to say that Tapegate was true. We'll probably never know. Moreover if it is true then we'll probably never know why. Personally, I'm sure JOURNEY had GOOD reason for doing so. You sound like those Jim Brown worshippers who want to argue everything they can about Walter Payton - true or false - fact and fiction in order to discredit him and maintain JB's Godly status.

Geez - I hope you're getting my point!

Sorry Fyre. I'm with Saint John on this one. Your analogy is ridiculous! For the record, I'm not someone who has ever bashed Augeri. I've always thought the guy had a good singing voice, and was rather shocked to read about the "Tapegate" allegations. It's not really about the fans giving a singer a shot. The material that is put out will always stand on its on merit, if it's good enough. I recall MANY Van Halen fans not giving Hagar a shot and "5150" sold more copies than almost everything Van Halen ever put out (5150 was the very first release with Hagar singing lead!)

Honestly, I think Augeri was actually given a "shot" by many Journey fans, just because so many of them thought he did a decent job sounding similar to Perry on the classics. I can tell you I was a Journey fan who never wanted to listen to Journey without Perry singing. That said, I watched the 2001 DVD and thought Augeri did a good job. I also thought Arrival was extremely good. All that said, Augeri isn't in the same league with Perry, period, end of story! The only thing Perry and Augeri have in common is that they both sang lead in Journey, at one point. Augeri isn't going to be remembered for making any Journey "history" when the final chapter of this book named Journey is written. I'm quite sure that Perry's place in Journey's history is cemented for life, whether you like the guy or not! The reality is that if Perry was never "called up to bat", as you put it...Journey would have never become what they became, and they wouldn't even have a page on the melodic rock site for fans to be talking about them. Perhaps this is why some fans think Perry is "God", as you put it! You can minimize Perry's role with Journey all day long, but it won't change what history has shown us!

Also, while I have no problem with your support of Augeri, you're being EXREMELY hypocritical getting on Perry fans for putting Augeri down. You're doing the exact same thing with Perry. Your agenda is quite clear. Your comments about Perry's "girly" voice and how anyone can sing in Perry's range clearly show your agenda here!

John from Boston

My "agenda" is and always has been to give credit where credit is due!

I haven't once minimized Perry or put him down. I entirely appreciate his voice, art, and contributions. I have him in clear perspective. What the majority of Perry worshippers dressed in JOURNEY fan clothing have done is to crown him the Messiah.

You're reasoning is skewed. "If SP was never brought up then JOURNEY wouldn't have become a star."

?????

Then it holds true that had JOURNEY not called up SP he'd still be mucking chicken coops and competing with Frank Perdue!!!

The reality is that JOURNEY and SP made a TEAM. They made each other. That's the fact. Trying to credit SP alone for JOURNEY's stardom is way out of focus with reality and dismisses the efforts of Neal, Ross, Gregg, Aynsley, George, Prairie, SS, and JC along with Columbia Records, Herbie and management, road crews, and etc. etc. and raises SP to saviour.

Now - who is it that has an agenda...?

The success VH had with Sammy is NOT comparable. Sammy came on board immediately after DLR was dismissed which minimized fan anxiety AND it happened during a time when melodic rock was peaking in popularity. SA was brought in after a highly anticipated reunion that failed which led to a disappointed fan base during a time when melodic rock required a familiar voice in SP to truly succeed. How can you even say that this is a fair comparison?

The bottom line is that SA's been up aganist it from the start. The poor guy really never stood a chance to succeed as the fans were oh, so intent on seeing him fail so that SP could maintain his legendary status. God forbid should SA have any success! That might take something away from "THE VOICE" and that would be unacceptable.

[Enigma869]

[quote="FyreWyngz]My "agenda" is and always has been to give credit where credit is due!

I haven't once minimized Perry or put him down. I entirely appreciate his voice, art, and contributions. I have him in clear perspective. What the majority of Perry worshippers dressed in JOURNEY fan clothing have done is to crown him the Messiah.

You're reasoning is skewed. "If SP was never brought up then JOURNEY wouldn't have become a star."

?????

Then it holds true that had JOURNEY not called up SP he'd still be mucking chicken coops and competing with Frank Perdue!!!

The reality is that JOURNEY and SP made a TEAM. They made each other. That's the fact. Trying to credit SP alone for JOURNEY's stardom is way out of focus with reality and dismisses the efforts of Neal, Ross, Gregg, Aynsley, George, Prairie, SS, and JC along with Columbia Records, Herbie and management, road crews, and etc. etc. and raises SP to saviour.

Now - who is it that has an agenda...?

The success VH had with Sammy is NOT comparable. Sammy came on board immediately after DLR was dismissed which minimized fan anxiety AND it happened during a time when melodic rock was peaking in popularity. SA was brought in after a highly anticipated reunion that failed which led to a disappointed fan base during a time when melodic rock required a familiar voice in SP to truly succeed. How can you even say that this is a fair comparison?

The bottom line is that SA's been up aganist it from the start. The poor guy really never stood a chance to succeed as the fans were oh, so intent on seeing him fail so that SP could maintain his legendary status. God forbid should SA have any success! That might take something away from "THE VOICE" and that would be unacceptable.[/quote]

I definitely agree with you 100% that Perry and Journey formed a team. No argument from me at all. The fact of the matter is, Neal is a SUPERB guitarist. I also think Jonathan Cain's addition to Journey was ENORMOUS, from a songwriting perspective. That said, we all know that Journey existed with ZERO commercial success before Perry's voice was introduced into the mix. That's a fact that cannot be disputed. I think because of that, many Perry supporters are going to look at the big picture that is Journey and certainly give Perry plenty of credit (as I feel he deserves) for putting this unknown band on the map and making them commercially relevant. Again, you don't have to like the guy, but the facts speak for themselves. I would also never argue the point that Herbie Herbert is the reason that Perry in Journey happened, so sure, the management deserves their share of credit as well. That said, management and Columbia records didn't give Perry his singing talent, nor did they determine whether or not fans would connect with Perry's voice.

When you look back at the 30 year history of Journey and all of the various members that have been in and out of the band, the fact is that the only member who Journey has had commercial success with that is now missing from the band is Perry! That simply cannot be disputed by ANYONE! They never had that success before Perry, and they've never had it since he left the band! Also, there isn't a single member of Journey who has had any commercial success on their own without the Journey name, except Perry! For the record, I do not necessarily think that commercial success is always an accurate barometer of whether a cd is good or bad. That said, it is how most people who do music for a living pay their bills. It's also a musicians' "stats", to use your sports metaphor. Journey's stats without Perry at the helm are flat out UGLY!

John from Boston

[The_Noble_Cause]

Since the CD sales were a given at the shows, the track listing didn't matter that much.

For that precise reason, it should've mattered more than ever before.
"Generations" was guranteed to get into the hands of old fans and new fans alike.
Why not make sure your handing out an optimal product?
It was good, but with "It's Never Too Late" it would've been even better.

[Deb]

Since the CD sales were a given at the shows, the track listing didn't matter that much.

For that precise reason, it should've mattered more than ever before.
"Generations" was guranteed to get into the hands of old fans and new fans alike.
Why not make sure your handing out an optimal product?
It was good, but with "It's Never Too Late" it would've been even better.

I agree. I'm sorry, but what the hell were they thinking putting Ross's song on there instead of Never Too Late......where the heck was JDK when you need him!

.......and yes I know your feelings on Generations, John.

[The_Noble_Cause]

I agree. I'm sorry, but what the hell were they thinking putting Ross's song on there instead of Never Too Late......where the heck was JDK when you need him!

Much like "Baby I'm a Leaving You", "Gone Crazy" is also a bit off the beaten musical path for Journey.
This time instead of Reggae, the band is messing around with a ZZ-top style.
It's eccentric nature would've been ideal for a bonus track.

Though I doubt it would've been much of an incentive for foreign fans to purchase it.

.......and yes I know your feelings on Generations, John.

You do?
Please share?
I believe he has written in the past how bands shouldn't relegate singing to anyone other than the frontman.
For this reason, I am guessing he wasn't too thrilled.

[Deb]

I agree. I'm sorry, but what the hell were they thinking putting Ross's song on there instead of Never Too Late......where the heck was JDK when you need him!

Much like "Baby I'm a Leaving You", "Gone Crazy" is also a bit off the beaten musical path for Journey.
This time instead of Reggae, the band is messing around with a ZZ-top style.
It's eccentric nature would've been ideal for a bonus track.

Though I doubt it would've been much of an incentive for foreign fans to purchase it.

.......and yes I know your feelings on Generations, John.

You do?
Please share?
I believe he has written in the past how bands shouldn't relegate singing to anyone other than the frontman.
For this reason, I am guessing he wasn't too thrilled.

LOL, we have had a discussion on Arrival vs. Generations before and suffice it to say he thinks it is awful.............but I'll let John tell ya how he feels about Generations. Come on John, be brutally honest! While I like Arrival and it has one of the best post Perry songs by Journey on it period IMO (Higher Place).......that was the only one that really stood out for me. I prefer more of the songs on Generations (then again I really dig Deen's vocals) also like Faith and Place in your heart. While I thought Neal's vocals were good on People and Places years ago, and this is just my opinion, I think Neal and Ross should just stick to their instruments.

[Enigma869]

I agree. I'm sorry, but what the hell were they thinking putting Ross's song on there instead of Never Too Late......where the heck was JDK when you need him!

Much like "Baby I'm a Leaving You", "Gone Crazy" is also a bit off the beaten musical path for Journey.
This time instead of Reggae, the band is messing around with a ZZ-top style.
It's eccentric nature would've been ideal for a bonus track.

Though I doubt it would've been much of an incentive for foreign fans to purchase it.

.......and yes I know your feelings on Generations, John.

You do?
Please share?
I believe he has written in the past how bands shouldn't relegate singing to anyone other than the frontman.
For this reason, I am guessing he wasn't too thrilled.

LOL, we have had a discussion on Arrival vs. Generations before and suffice it to say he thinks it is awful.............but I'll let John tell ya how he feels about Generations. Come on John, be brutally honest! While I like Arrival and it has one of the best post Perry songs by Journey on it period IMO (Higher Place).......that was the only one that really stood out for me. I prefer more of the songs on Generations (then again I really dig Deen's vocals) also like Faith and Place in your heart. While I thought Neal's vocals were good on People and Places years ago, and this is just my opinion, I think Neal and Ross should just stick to their instruments.

You are correct that I have written in the past that I think Generations is awful. It simply doesn't measure up to the quality I've come to expect out of Journey. Furthermore, the sound of Generations (and I'm not referring to the vocals here) is awful. It sounds like it was recorded in someone's basement, as opposed to being recorded in a professional recording studio.

TNC is also correct that I'm not a big fan of allowing everyone in a band to sing lead. Bands have front men for a reason. It's fine to do that if the other guys in the band actually have the ability to sing (like The Eagles, where they are all great singers). That said, Ross can't sing...Neal is awful, and so is Jonathan! Leave the singing to the frontman. The only other guy I'm okay with singing Journey music is Deen, and that's because he's proven that he actually has a very good singing voice!

John from Boston

[The_Noble_Cause]

LOL, we have had a discussion on Arrival vs. Generations before and suffice it to say he thinks it is awful.............but I'll let John tell ya how he feels about Generations. Come on John, be brutally honest!

I haven't kept up with his "Ask JDK" page, but I don't believe he has ever come out and expressed his views on the album.
This is prolly because Sanctuary distributed it in the US.

[Deb]

LOL, we have had a discussion on Arrival vs. Generations before and suffice it to say he thinks it is awful.............but I'll let John tell ya how he feels about Generations. Come on John, be brutally honest!

I haven't kept up with his "Ask JDK" page, but I don't believe he has ever come out and expressed his views on the album.
This is prolly because Sanctuary distributed it in the US.

No, I don't think he has either. I just used him as an example because he is a good AR guy and probably would have known better. BTW, I was talking about "John from Boston" above, not John Kalodner.

[The_Noble_Cause]

BTW, I was talking about "John from Boston" above, not John Kalodner.

Yeah, you abruptly went from mentioning JDK to saying how you knew "John's thoughts on Generations".
For a second there I thought u were chummy with Kalodner and were privy to his secret innermost thoughts.
My bad

I already knew our John's/Enigma's thoughts on the album.
I used to read him be the lone voice of dissent over at BT.
Always worth a few laughs.

[Deb]

BTW, I was talking about "John from Boston" above, not John Kalodner.

Yeah, you abruptly went from mentioning JDK to saying how you knew "John's thoughts on Generations".
For a second there I thought u were chummy with Kalodner and were privy to his secret innermost thoughts.
My bad

I already knew our John's/Enigma's thoughts on the album.
I used to read him be the lone voice of dissent over at BT.
Always worth a few laughs.

Ya, I can be understandably confusing! I'll try to take a couple breaths between thoughts.

[Enigma869]

BTW, I was talking about "John from Boston" above, not John Kalodner.

Yeah, you abruptly went from mentioning JDK to saying how you knew "John's thoughts on Generations".
For a second there I thought u were chummy with Kalodner and were privy to his secret innermost thoughts.
My bad

I already knew our John's/Enigma's thoughts on the album.
I used to read him be the lone voice of dissent over at BT.
Always worth a few laughs.

Hey...someone had to be a voice of dissent over at BT! Otherwise, there would be nothing but mindless postings about Augeri's "wiggle" and "let's hold hands and all sing we are the world and send Augeri positive energy" bullshit As I've always said, I've never had much of an issue with Augeri. It's his fans I detest. None of them ever wants to talk about the only thing most of us care about...MUSIC!

John from Boston

[Matthew]

You want to make comparisons and I'll say here like I've said on BT and elsewhere: comparing the two is a disservice to both artists.

Augeri has spent most of the last eight years singing the songs Perry co-wrote and made famous. So comparisons are inevitable, Fyre...

You've already passed judgment based on unfair expectations. You want SA to live up to what you think he should sound like: SP.

I see... buying all three Augeri records and going to see him live too...that isn't enough to constitute a "fair listen" because I had "unfair expectations".

But you assume too much. I never wanted Journey to hire a singer to sound like SP. That's why I'm so pleased JSS has joined the band.

Wailing like Perry is easy if you have a high girlie voice like him which I've been cursed with. It's simply a matter of hanging on the edge of the falsetto: breath control and minimal effort. Trying to hang with SA takes a more manly voice and maximum effort.

Fyre - any chance of you posting a recording of you singing like Perry in the karaoke thread?

His trademark was about desperation: reaching out, holding on, calling out, etc. Lyrically and performance-wise.

Yes - you're right about that...

[Matthew]

Mathew, i agree with everything that you are saying, but, these days in America, having a chart hit is not the end all be all.

You are spoiled in the UK, your hits have much more integrity than ours.
This is an American band, Billboard hits are bought here, now. Do you really what a Journey who buys their popularity, or a band that just rocks.

Jrnyjunky - is it really so corrupt in the US? I know that here in the UK the charts have always been manipulated to some extent - but a long run on the album charts usually means that the record is a success with the public.

I know that in the publishing industry space and displays in the stores are 'bought' by publishers. But no matter how much hype and money there is...if the book is a dud and it doesn't connect with readers...then it won't sell on. The book will shoot up the chart and fall back down again just as quickly. Whereas the books which hang in there are genuinely finding an audience.

Of course - getting on the chart isn't the be all and end all - but it is still a barometer of a band's popularity. For me it isn't a choice between the chart success OR a band who rocks. Journey achieved both between 1978 - 1996 - and that line-up set certain standards that are worth reaching for again.

No - I don't expect a return of the glory days of 1981 again - but it's realistic to aim to recapture the lost ground since 1996.

[Andrew]

Actually, the top 40 market in most countries is corrupt and completely open to manipulation by the major labels....why do you think so much shit is hurled at the general public and why none of them get to hear about "real music" so much.

Very sad. Only enlightened individuals that search out the music they love (like on the net etc) really find anything special.