You're Journey's New Management Team....

[The_Noble_Cause]

you ignore ( or are unaware) the possibility that the nature and availability of technology today, it is far more likely that tracks were assembled at Jon's studio with emphasis being made for StevieA's style, set length order, alternates, etc.

What is so surprising is the over reliance on isolated vocal tracks strictly from the 2001 dvd.
Other sources were used for other songs (When You Love a Woman, Dead or Alive, Keep on Running), but by and large, they used the 2001 dvd for the mainstay classics.

it is no wonder they worked StevieA beyond his abilty to deliver , without assistance.

In hindight, Deen's abilities probably should've been showcased already by 2001.
Would've helped Augeri out.

[AlienC]

What is so surprising is the over reliance on isolated vocal tracks strictly from the 2001 dvd.


Other sources were used for other songs (When You Love a Woman, Dead or Alive, Keep on Running), but by and large, they used the 2001 dvd for the mainstay classics.

How can anyone, not present for the compilation for final transfer, be so sure of track origin? Seriously. I know singers, SP and SA , inparticular who were able to "double" their own performance, months later, with just one pass to refresh the memory. Mimicry is also another rarely discussed talent by Vocalists and vocal impressions are often one of their talents most often displayed during moments of relaxation.

In hindight, Deen's abilities probably should've been showcased already by 2001.
Would've helped Augeri out.

Try from Day ONE! Some of us lobbied for this in Detroit, but sometimes you can't get people to HEAR something they need to. It would have allowed SA a time to relax, rest voice, not have to reach song after song after song after song after sonfg after song after...... well, you get the idea.

[The_Noble_Cause]

How can anyone, not present for the compilation for final transfer, be so sure of track origin?

Deano painstakingly compared track after track on his blog.
Jeremy even synced up Vegas tracks with 'live" boots from '05 shows.
The vocal never deviated (aside from key moments where Augeri's mic was turned on to address the crowd or warble his way thru a low range segment).

Seriously. I know singers, SP and SA , inparticular who were able to "double" their own performance, months later, with just one pass to refresh the memory. Mimicry is also another rarely discussed talent by Vocalists and vocal impressions are often one of their talents most often displayed during moments of relaxation.

Maybe so. But even Augeri in his prime was never THAT good.
Take any track from the first tour and sync it up with the same song performed on a different night.
I bet the vocal tracks diverge in a matter of seconds.
Try it with two Perry live tracks.
The same thing will happen.

Only a machine can replicate a vocal performance down to every last nuance and inflection.

Try from Day ONE! Some of us lobbied for this in Detroit, but sometimes you can't get people to HEAR something they need to. It would have allowed SA a time to relax, rest voice, not have to reach song after song after song after song after sonfg after song after...... well, you get the idea.

At the time, Perry's shadow still overbearingly loomed over this band (still does, actually).
Perhaps, having two singers so early on would be a sign of weakness.
It would prove that Perry was irreplaceable, after all.

Neal did always do Filmore Boogie or something similarly indulgent, giving Augeri a short breather.

Maybe they wanted to exhaust his voice ASAP so they could give him the heave-ho.

[AlienC]

Deano painstakingly compared track after track on his blog.
Jeremy even synced up Vegas tracks with 'live" boots from '05 shows.
The vocal never deviated (aside from key moments where Augeri's mic was turned on to address the crowd or warble his way thru a low range segment).

Well, given how far up Kevin Shirley's ass they are, I'm sure they want to get their monies worth from those tracks. I wonder if they bothered to compensate him for those tracks being used in a manner not consistent with their original intent?

Maybe so. But even Augeri in his prime was never THAT good.
Take any track from the first tour and sync it up with the same song performed on a different night.
I bet the vocal tracks diverge in a matter of seconds.
Try it with two Perry live tracks.
The same thing will happen.

Only a machine can replicate a vocal performance down to every last nuance and inflection.

Well, then I suppose my 30 years of studio experience to the contrary is null and void? I don't think so. Why would I mention Augeri & Perry specifically if I hadn't witnessed it with my own ears? You may choose to disbelieve me, but you do not invalidate my experiences simply by being contrary. Without machines, you would not be compareing performances for consistency, but a trained musician CAN and very often DO repeat performances down to the hemidemisemiquaver (look it up) and the most subtle of nuance. Perry would compile a single track using portions of several takes. He could then repeat THAT compiled track, ad infinitum, once he committed it to memory. He (SP) was truely a remarkable craftsman when it comes to creating a song. Finally, no machine can create a vocal track, even one that would be comparable with Augeri's worst. Quit picking on him. They all share the reponsibility, and if any "blame" is to be heaped on a doorstep, put it on the one who would ignore the common sense and overbook the gigs

At the time, Perry's shadow still overbearingly loomed over this band (still does, actually).

Que? So?

Perhaps, having two singers so early on would be a sign of weakness. It would prove that Perry was irreplaceable, after all.

AHHHH that's horse pucky and you know it. Remember when SP JOINED the band????? Anyone BESIDES ME recall seeing a certain Gregg Rolie as the LEAD with the "new lead" singer actually residing more as a sideman?????? Weakness??? what is this, Mixed Martial Arts sparring? Look, everyone needs to get the idea of Journey being rediscovered out of their head as long as they insist on the The Dirty Bakers Dozen and refuse to support new material. What "proves" anything is Radio's absolute refusal to do anything with any other music. We got kneecapped by SONY several times, the worst being The Armageddon Credit Roll Screw. That NO ONE went to the mat over Steve Tyler's demand for his song there rather than what was contracted was a harbinger of doom as far as I was concerned. Then when Azoff went hands off and gave the band the cold shoulder and they were red headed step childen again.

Neal did always do Filmore Boogie or something similarly indulgent, giving Augeri a short breather.

Maybe they wanted to exhaust his voice ASAP so they could give him the heave-ho.

A short breather is not enough and 5 shows a week is too much. They know this. They discovered years ago that SA's (and most singers, too) limit is 3 to 4 days on then MINIMUM 3 days off and SA would be gold. The only thing that killed this golden goose was SA's failure to do what was right FOR HIM, and putting the corporations needs above his own. aka trying to please other people.
Exhausting a voice is an easy thing to do. Doing the right thing by somebody, not always so easy. I hope they are all happy with themselves and the choices they made.

[Monker]

Err, well, I agree.

I've been saying some of the same things for months now. But, I don't get far talking to a wall.

"Mr. Wall, it's the band's fault, not Augeri's..."

Nope, doesn't get very far.

Deano painstakingly compared track after track on his blog.
Jeremy even synced up Vegas tracks with 'live" boots from '05 shows.
The vocal never deviated (aside from key moments where Augeri's mic was turned on to address the crowd or warble his way thru a low range segment).

Well, given how far up Kevin Shirley's ass they are, I'm sure they want to get their monies worth from those tracks. I wonder if they bothered to compensate him for those tracks being used in a manner not consistent with their original intent?

Maybe so. But even Augeri in his prime was never THAT good.
Take any track from the first tour and sync it up with the same song performed on a different night.
I bet the vocal tracks diverge in a matter of seconds.
Try it with two Perry live tracks.
The same thing will happen.

Only a machine can replicate a vocal performance down to every last nuance and inflection.

Well, then I suppose my 30 years of studio experience to the contrary is null and void? I don't think so. Why would I mention Augeri & Perry specifically if I hadn't witnessed it with my own ears? You may choose to disbelieve me, but you do not invalidate my experiences simply by being contrary. Without machines, you would not be compareing performances for consistency, but a trained musician CAN and very often DO repeat performances down to the hemidemisemiquaver (look it up) and the most subtle of nuance. Perry would compile a single track using portions of several takes. He could then repeat THAT compiled track, ad infinitum, once he committed it to memory. He (SP) was truely a remarkable craftsman when it comes to creating a song. Finally, no machine can create a vocal track, even one that would be comparable with Augeri's worst. Quit picking on him. They all share the reponsibility, and if any "blame" is to be heaped on a doorstep, put it on the one who would ignore the common sense and overbook the gigs

At the time, Perry's shadow still overbearingly loomed over this band (still does, actually).

Que? So?

Perhaps, having two singers so early on would be a sign of weakness. It would prove that Perry was irreplaceable, after all.

AHHHH that's horse pucky and you know it. Remember when SP JOINED the band????? Anyone BESIDES ME recall seeing a certain Gregg Rolie as the LEAD with the "new lead" singer actually residing more as a sideman?????? Weakness??? what is this, Mixed Martial Arts sparring? Look, everyone needs to get the idea of Journey being rediscovered out of their head as long as they insist on the The Dirty Bakers Dozen and refuse to support new material. What "proves" anything is Radio's absolute refusal to do anything with any other music. We got kneecapped by SONY several times, the worst being The Armageddon Credit Roll Screw. That NO ONE went to the mat over Steve Tyler's demand for his song there rather than what was contracted was a harbinger of doom as far as I was concerned. Then when Azoff went hands off and gave the band the cold shoulder and they were red headed step childen again.

Neal did always do Filmore Boogie or something similarly indulgent, giving Augeri a short breather.

Maybe they wanted to exhaust his voice ASAP so they could give him the heave-ho.

A short breather is not enough and 5 shows a week is too much. They know this. They discovered years ago that SA's (and most singers, too) limit is 3 to 4 days on then MINIMUM 3 days off and SA would be gold. The only thing that killed this golden goose was SA's failure to do what was right FOR HIM, and putting the corporations needs above his own. aka trying to please other people.
Exhausting a voice is an easy thing to do. Doing the right thing by somebody, not always so easy. I hope they are all happy with themselves and the choices they made.

[fred_journeyman]

This is not entirely correct. OR, I should say, this may have changed, but at the time of the very first , Vacations Over tour in '98, we ( Journey and I ) re -re corded ALL of the Greatest Hits in order to provide RADIO the music beds needed for ads. There was a specific restricton against using material with SP's voice on it for ads, so we rented a mobile unit, a warehouse at a PA Company in Detroit, and re-cut the entire thing in an afternoon. Then,StevieA SANG the whole thing in just a couple of takes and then Jon, Neal and Kevin mixed it up at Jon's studio ( I think). StevieA, at his prime was capable of doing the job, and those ad's proved it. There were plenty of radio jocks who still think that we used Perry's voice for those music beds. A couple of radio stations made their own ads using "forbidden material", but those were quashed as soon as we found out about them. I was burning CD's for Promotion to send to radio on the crew's Tour Bus at shows and between gigs for the first week.
As for "the restrictions". SP is represented by one of the industries best legal firms. He gets his monies worth, I'm sure. Believe me, you wont see any "tell -all" book from me. I don't want the hassle.....But should I turn up missing or dead, the details in negatives, recordings and videos will be automatically mailed to press and law enforcement around the world. I saw "THE FIRM", you don't need to draw me a picture.......

Hey Allen,

Don't know how I missed your posts - I enjoy reading them, especially since you spent so much time with the band. Regarding Perry's lawyers, I'm sure they probably charge up to $1000/hour, but like you say, they're worth it for him. Putting out a "tell all" even if every word of it was completely true wouldn't be worth the hassle of dealing with the legal headaches.

Regarding the ads you guys used with Augeri's voice, I remember people arguing way back when stating that it was JOURNEY that was using the songs with Perry's voice, as if Journey could oversee every radio station, or TV station (in my case near Sacramento) to ensure that only the Augeri-fronted tunes were used.

[fred_journeyman]

Well, given how far up Kevin Shirley's ass they are, I'm sure they want to get their monies worth from those tracks. I wonder if they bothered to compensate him for those tracks being used in a manner not consistent with their original intent?

Yeah, that's an interesting point right there...

...Finally, no machine can create a vocal track, even one that would be comparable with Augeri's worst. Quit picking on him. They all share the reponsibility, and if any "blame" is to be heaped on a doorstep, put it on the one who would ignore the common sense and overbook the gigs

THANK YOU!! Yes, maybe people will quit picking on him, which would be a nice thing in and of itself.

AHHHH that's horse pucky and you know it. Remember when SP JOINED the band????? Anyone BESIDES ME recall seeing a certain Gregg Rolie as the LEAD with the "new lead" singer actually residing more as a sideman??????

The very first time I saw Journey was in Binghamton, NY years ago. It was an outdoor concert and they were on the bill with a number of other bands. Because of the rain, some of the other bands canceled. Journey played and for most of Journey's set, Perry stood off to the side.

Weakness??? what is this, Mixed Martial Arts sparring? Look, everyone needs to get the idea of Journey being rediscovered out of their head as long as they insist on the The Dirty Bakers Dozen and refuse to support new material. What "proves" anything is Radio's absolute refusal to do anything with any other music. We got kneecapped by SONY several times, the worst being The Armageddon Credit Roll Screw. That NO ONE went to the mat over Steve Tyler's demand for his song there rather than what was contracted was a harbinger of doom as far as I was concerned. Then when Azoff went hands off and gave the band the cold shoulder and they were red headed step childen again.

Why do you think Azoff took that approach?

A short breather is not enough and 5 shows a week is too much. They know this. They discovered years ago that SA's (and most singers, too) limit is 3 to 4 days on then MINIMUM 3 days off and SA would be gold. The only thing that killed this golden goose was SA's failure to do what was right FOR HIM, and putting the corporations needs above his own. aka trying to please other people. Exhausting a voice is an easy thing to do. Doing the right thing by somebody, not always so easy. I hope they are all happy with themselves and the choices they made.

Thanks Allen. So, Augeri - in your opinion - is not the jackass, pile of sh*t that some think he is, but someone who overdid it for Journey?

If Journey continues to tour as they are touring year after year, I wonder how well JSS's voice will hold up under the pressure?

[fred_journeyman]

Err, well, I agree.

I've been saying some of the same things for months now. But, I don't get far talking to a wall.

"Mr. Wall, it's the band's fault, not Augeri's..."

Nope, doesn't get very far.

Nope, not when you've got people who only want to point fingers at one person and that's it.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Err, well, I agree.

I've been saying some of the same things for months now. But, I don't get far talking to a wall.

You also vehemently fought tooth and nail that the use of tapes was bunk.
So which is it?
In ur pained attempts to seem prophetic and all knowing, u drastically miscalulated and bet on the wrong horse.

Deano was vindicated and yet here u still remain a crotchety old asshole.

"Mr. Wall, it's the band's fault, not Augeri's..."

Nope, doesn't get very far.

I think many people have chimed in with similar comments.
Even I said all are culpable yet the bottom line rests with the vocalist and his craft.

[AlienC]

I didn't mean to sound like a jerk, you just have to realize that something has to be in it for Mutt, to get him to commit. The state that Journey is in now, is not near enough. I think he and Shania would get a good laugh. It'd take more than $10 mil to leave her for months on end for Journey

I don't think Mutt would be the right sound for Journey anyway.....

I agree, Andrew.

For me the dream scenario would be...Rick Rubin.

I suggested RR in 2000. It is still a great idea. This is the sort of re-inventive / musical collaboration that would work. Maybe Don Was, but Rick Rubin would be the shit as he still has a young ear.
To further the transformation, they coud do some smaller shows, stripped down and play the new RR trax, obscure first two album trax and as a finale, pull two or three hoary old gems out of their ass. BUT NO MORE THAN 2 or 3 .
THEN if the offer warrants it, they coould do some GrEAtest-sHITS shows, but for the love of all things holy, you can never move on , make new discoveries if you don't get out of the routine of doom.

A new sound would be something to take to late night talk tv

[fredinator]

So, Alien, did SP wear himself out, too, by playing gig after gig booked by those who didn't have much common sense?

Thanks for sharing...

[The_Noble_Cause]

Well, then I suppose my 30 years of studio experience to the contrary is null and void? I don't think so.

I didn't say that, however, it has been my experience (granted, not in anyways comparable to yours) that it is impossible for a live concert vocal to be 100% replicated nightly by a mere mortal. Ain't happening. Syncing up even the two closest live concert Perry takes in existence would reveal numerous divergences. Furthermore, Deano and others had it independently verified that the Vegas dvd was what was being utilized in 2005 for the dirty dozen.
I also feel u are giving Augeri way too much credit.
Let's just say consistency was definately not his forte.

Why would I mention Augeri & Perry specifically if I hadn't witnessed it with my own ears?

It may have sounded close, but did you ever allign (what u thought were) two near-identical live takes?
I bet the vocals diverge within seconds.
You mean to tell me the ad-lib mad Perry has live concert recordings in existence where u could allign the start of the lead vocal, hit play and both tracks would never fall out of sync?
The human voice is simply not capable of that, ESPECIALLY not in the volatile world of live performance.

AHHHH that's horse pucky and you know it. Remember when SP JOINED the band????? Anyone BESIDES ME recall seeing a certain Gregg Rolie as the LEAD with the "new lead" singer actually residing more as a sideman??????

The casual masses don't remember the Rolie/Perry years.
Moving on with a new singer was a ballsy endeavor and a jarring change as it was.
Seeing two singers on stage would've thrown people even further for a loop.

The only thing that killed this golden goose was SA's failure to do what was right FOR HIM, and putting the corporations needs above his own. aka trying to please other people.

Ok, so Neal and Jon are greedy bastards (knew that already) and Steve Augeri is an unwitting dupe devoid of free will and all rational thought.
Got it.

[fred_journeyman]

...Ok, so Neal and Jon are greedy bastards (knew that already) and Steve Augeri is an unwitting dupe devoid of free will and all rational thought.
Got it.

Why did you have to make such a leap to THAT conclusion? I didn't understand Allen to say or imply that at all.

If what Allen said is true that Augeri's "...failure to do what was right FOR HIM, and putting the corporations needs above his own. aka trying to please other people" could have all been on Augeri. In other words, gee - here's a thought - maybe Augeri WAS/IS really a nice, decent guy and didn't want to disappoint the band by asking for time off or space between concerts to give his voice a rest?

You are reading into Allen's words that he (Allen) is placing blame on Neal and the guys, when it very well could have been management, not Neal or the guys. It also could very well all boil down to Augeri and his desire to keep things moving. Crap, if anyone likely hasn't felt like he was truly part of the band, it was Augeri.

You know, when the Bassist for the Who died so suddenly on the even of their tour, they could have said, "Hey, we're canceling the tour, period." However, according to Daltry, the decision was not that simple. Had they canceled the tour, it would have affected THOUSANDS of people financially, so they didn't.

Maybe Augeri felt that he didn't want to disappoint so he put it all on himself to keep himself going any way he could so that the "tours could go on." It's a possibility. Obviously, he wore himself and his voice out. That seems to be the truth. Since it's also obvious and a well known fact that the guys in Journey are able to pay their bills because they tour, then a lead singer having to stop for a while just prior to the start of another huge tour would not sit well with the band, their fans or anyone else connected with the venture. Management could have put undue pressure on Augeri and/or the band as well. Seems like Journey's management has more power than other management groups for other bands. Not sure why, but it's seems like Journey does the bidding of their management and management doesn't do a whole lot for them. That is way too weird of a situation.

This idea that Augeri shoulda/woulda/coulda is a bit far fetched in the world of corporate dollars. Here's a tour moving full speed ahead and Auger is going to stand up and go "Ya know, I can't do this tour. We need to cancel it. My voice is shot."

[ArnelRox]

Maybe Augeri felt that he didn't want to disappoint so he put it all on himself to keep himself going any way he could so that the "tours could go on." It's a possibility.

Fred that's all good & well for the 2005 30th Anniversary tour. Absolutely. But then why agree to go on in 2006 using tapes again? That's the BIG question. I can see the "good guy" bit for the 2005 tour. But anyone who would agree to lip synch to tape beyond that just doesn't have integrity. He should have stepped down. The band should have made him step down. Maybe, just maybe, they tried & he refused & threatened all sorts of legal shit. Isn't that equally as possible as what ur suggesting? After all, someone is holding things up now & we know it's not the band. So who is it? Mr. Augeri himself. Perhaps not quite the "good guy" doing everything for the "good of the band" some want to believe.

Here's a tour moving full speed ahead and Auger is going to stand up and go "Ya know, I can't do this tour. We need to cancel it. My voice is shot."

See above. Perfectly logical for the 2005 tour. But he let the UK dates & the Def Leppard tour get booked in 2006 knowing he still couldn't do it. That's what calls him into question.

[Matthew]

He apparently doesn't want to be associated with the band anymore so they can't really use footage of him, so just don't use it.

I disagree, Sherrie. He has been producing and promoting the recent Journey DVDs and reissues. He is very much associating himself with Journey - and if modern day Journey want to put up clips to celebrate their long, illustrious history (as Rush did recently) then there's no reason - other than the fear being belittled by his video image - why they can't include him in the footage.

Unless of course Perry himself has stipulated that no image of him can be reproduced in concert....

I meant that it appears that he doesn't want to be associated with the band after 1997. I think it was probably Steve who initiated the restrictions John mentioned along with the restriction on their rerecording any of the material from Steve's time with the band.

This is not entirely correct. OR, I should say, this may have changed, but at the time of the very first , Vacations Over tour in '98, we ( Journey and I ) re -re corded ALL of the Greatest Hits in order to provide RADIO the music beds needed for ads. There was a specific restricton against using material with SP's voice on it for ads, so we rented a mobile unit, a warehouse at a PA Company in Detroit, and re-cut the entire thing in an afternoon. Then,StevieA SANG the whole thing in just a couple of takes and then Jon, Neal and Kevin mixed it up at Jon's studio ( I think). StevieA, at his prime was capable of doing the job, and those ad's proved it. There were plenty of radio jocks who still think that we used Perry's voice for those music beds. A couple of radio stations made their own ads using "forbidden material", but those were quashed as soon as we found out about them. I was burning CD's for Promotion to send to radio on the crew's Tour Bus at shows and between gigs for the first week.
As for "the restrictions". SP is represented by one of the industries best legal firms. He gets his monies worth, I'm sure. Believe me, you wont see any "tell -all" book from me. I don't want the hassle.....But should I turn up missing or dead, the details in negatives, recordings and videos will be automatically mailed to press and law enforcement around the world. I saw "THE FIRM", you don't need to draw me a picture.......

Allen - I'm not entirely clear on who you think was the driving force behind the removal of Perry's voice and image from all promotional ads/video footage in concert/ and so on. Are you saying that it was Journey who were imposing the restictions in the late 1990s when you worked with them?

[Matthew]

I didn't mean to sound like a jerk, you just have to realize that something has to be in it for Mutt, to get him to commit. The state that Journey is in now, is not near enough. I think he and Shania would get a good laugh. It'd take more than $10 mil to leave her for months on end for Journey

I don't think Mutt would be the right sound for Journey anyway.....

I agree, Andrew.

For me the dream scenario would be...Rick Rubin.

I suggested RR in 2000. It is still a great idea. This is the sort of re-inventive / musical collaboration that would work. Maybe Don Was, but Rick Rubin would be the shit as he still has a young ear.

Yes - that's so true - RR has the extraordinary ability to make every act he works with sound 'hot' or 'current' without remotely compromising the artist...if anything, he makes the artists sound even more 'true' to themselves then they did before.

Rubin was almost entirely responsible for making Johnny Cash seem 'relevant' and exciting to a young audience...and the older, long-time fans also thought the Rubin albums were among the best Cash ever recorded too. And he did the same for Neal Diamond....and if Diamond can be made to be cool again...so can Journey.

Also - it'll be interesting to see what Rubin does with Metallica. No, Metallica's career hasn't gone off track to the same extent as Journey's has - but there are similarities. The last Metallica album wasn't well-received - even by the die-hards - and there's a perception in the industry and amongst the fans that the band are long past their best. Metallica hired Rubin to do a rescue job in many ways - and they also have a new member of the band that has given them a new energy too.

But can Journey afford Rubin without the support of a major label? And would Rubin want to produce them or sign them to his label? I guess a lot would depend on how highly he rates JSS and how much he believes in his potential.

[joybringer1]

Maybe Augeri felt that he didn't want to disappoint so he put it all on himself to keep himself going any way he could so that the "tours could go on." It's a possibility.

Fred that's all good & well for the 2005 30th Anniversary tour. Absolutely. But then why agree to go on in 2006 using tapes again? That's the BIG question. I can see the "good guy" bit for the 2005 tour. But anyone who would agree to lip synch to tape beyond that just doesn't have integrity. He should have stepped down. The band should have made him step down. Maybe, just maybe, they tried & he refused & threatened all sorts of legal shit. Isn't that equally as possible as what ur suggesting? After all, someone is holding things up now & we know it's not the band. So who is it? Mr. Augeri himself. Perhaps not quite the "good guy" doing everything for the "good of the band" some want to believe.

Here's a tour moving full speed ahead and Auger is going to stand up and go "Ya know, I can't do this tour. We need to cancel it. My voice is shot."

See above. Perfectly logical for the 2005 tour. But he let the UK dates & the Def Leppard tour get booked in 2006 knowing he still couldn't do it. That's what calls him into question.

It's also possible that BOTH of you could be right. Too many people have said what a decent, humble guy Augeri is for there to be NO truth in it. Perhaps he DID ruin his voice by being so compliant to the demands put on him and not wanting to rock the boat. And maybe once he realised his voice had gone he thought "fuck them, they got me in this situation and I'm damned if I'm stepping down from the gravy train now". Maybe it was a case of the worm that turned. Kind of backed up by his behaviour now. If that is the way things went down then I must admit to a certain amount of sympathy for him.

[KCfla]

Maybe Augeri felt that he didn't want to disappoint so he put it all on himself to keep himself going any way he could so that the "tours could go on." It's a possibility.

Fred that's all good & well for the 2005 30th Anniversary tour. Absolutely. But then why agree to go on in 2006 using tapes again? That's the BIG question. I can see the "good guy" bit for the 2005 tour. But anyone who would agree to lip synch to tape beyond that just doesn't have integrity. He should have stepped down. The band should have made him step down. Maybe, just maybe, they tried & he refused & threatened all sorts of legal shit. Isn't that equally as possible as what ur suggesting? After all, someone is holding things up now & we know it's not the band. So who is it? Mr. Augeri himself. Perhaps not quite the "good guy" doing everything for the "good of the band" some want to believe.

Here's a tour moving full speed ahead and Auger is going to stand up and go "Ya know, I can't do this tour. We need to cancel it. My voice is shot."

See above. Perfectly logical for the 2005 tour. But he let the UK dates & the Def Leppard tour get booked in 2006 knowing he still couldn't do it. That's what calls him into question.

See- this is the very thing I can't seem to get my head around.

WHY- if Steve A./the band knew his voice was gone/shot/in need of rest did they book the tours in 2006??
Management's fault? Greed by certain members ( not that I totally want to believe that)? No backbone by Steve A.?

I can understand the need to keep the tour going in 2005- but to literally set themselves up for all that happened this year is something I just can't figure out. I/we probably will never know for sure.

[ohsherrie]

See- this is the very thing I can't seem to get my head around.

WHY- if Steve A./the band knew his voice was gone/shot/in need of rest did they book the tours in 2006??
Management's fault? Greed by certain members ( not that I totally want to believe that)? No backbone by Steve A.?

I can understand the need to keep the tour going in 2005- but to literally set themselves up for all that happened this year is something I just can't figure out. I/we probably will never know for sure.

Yeah, that's what I keep coming back to too, KCfla. It couldn't possibly have been a decision that any one person, whether management or band member, made on their own. Unless there was some legal pressure from some quarter, it just doesn't make sense. The $$ motivation doesn't really make sense either unless it's a debt of some kind that makes them legally bound to continue touring by any means possible. They were risking losing their tour audiences and long term earning ability if they were found out. Thank goodness they had Jeff to call on or it would be all but over for them.

Now if they could just pacify their holdout and get that announcement made this MR management team could get them back on the charts.

[The_Noble_Cause]

If what Allen said is true that Augeri's "...failure to do what was right FOR HIM, and putting the corporations needs above his own. aka trying to please other people" could have all been on Augeri. In other words, gee - here's a thought - maybe Augeri WAS/IS really a nice, decent guy and didn't want to disappoint the band by asking for time off or space between concerts to give his voice a rest?

So looking out solely for his own financial keester while pulling a fast one over on the loyal fans that gave him a chance is ur idea of a "nice guy"?
Your inclination to believe in the inherent goodness of ur rock heroes is clouding the view of the situation.
We took out our purses and wallets and Augeri dunked his hot-spiced italian sausage in it nightly.
Plain and simple.

Had they canceled the tour, it would have affected THOUSANDS of people financially, so they didn't.

Maybe Augeri felt that he didn't want to disappoint so he put it all on himself to keep himself going any way he could so that the "tours could go on."

His voice had hit rock bottom by the end of the 2004 tour. It was about as far as he could take it. His reliance on his on-stage inhaler had become obscene. Tapes were being used for both high notes and some nites whole songs. This is not what Neal intended. Journey was never meant to be a pro-tools band and yet here Augeri was transmogrifying it into one. Upon learning the use of tapes would be diminished at the start of the DefLeppard tour Steve was not pleased at all.
This hanger-on simply didn't care whether he ran the band straight into the ground.

It's been reported by two fans now that they were told the lyrics of the SoulSirkus track "Higher Ground" was written about members of Journey.

"sick of wasting time with you. Don't know why I let you in the first place"

Hmmm, now I wonder who Neal was subtly trying to have take a hint in that opening stanza?

Here's a tour moving full speed ahead and Auger is going to stand up and go "Ya know, I can't do this tour. We need to cancel it. My voice is shot."

Considering vocal enhancements were first utilized in 2002, which tour exactly would u being referring to?

[KCfla]

See- this is the very thing I can't seem to get my head around.

WHY- if Steve A./the band knew his voice was gone/shot/in need of rest did they book the tours in 2006??
Management's fault? Greed by certain members ( not that I totally want to believe that)? No backbone by Steve A.?

I can understand the need to keep the tour going in 2005- but to literally set themselves up for all that happened this year is something I just can't figure out. I/we probably will never know for sure.

Yeah, that's what I keep coming back to too, KCfla. It couldn't possibly have been a decision that any one person, whether management or band member, made on their own. Unless there was some legal pressure from some quarter, it just doesn't make sense. The $$ motivation doesn't really make sense either unless it's a debt of some kind that makes them legally bound to continue touring by any means possible. They were risking losing their tour audiences and long term earning ability if they were found out. Thank goodness they had Jeff to call on or it would be all but over for them.

Now if they could just pacify their holdout and get that announcement made this MR management team could get them back on the charts.

Thanks- I thought I was the only one thinking these things
Journey, their crew and such would not have been the only ones to take a huge hit if the tour wound up being cancelled- DL, their crew and such would have taken the hit as well. And that would have probably meant bigger more drawn out lawsuits by the 2 managements of these bands.

Not something I want to see/read/think about!
Thank you JSS!!!!

[fred_journeyman]

...The $$ motivation doesn't really make sense either unless it's a debt of some kind that makes them legally bound to continue touring by any means possible. They were risking losing their tour audiences and long term earning ability if they were found out. Thank goodness they had Jeff to call on or it would be all but over for them.

Now if they could just pacify their holdout and get that announcement made this MR management team could get them back on the charts.

When the Who's bassist died, there were a few options. No one would have blamed the band if they had canceled the tour. Problem was, it wasn't just the band that would have been affected. Thousands of people would have been affected by the cancellation of the tour. It's not just the audiences that would have been affected. Everyone from truck drivers, to promoters, to clean up and set up crew, to EVERYONE that was in any way related to that tour would have been adversely affected if the tour had been canceled. It was because of that reason - according to Daltry - that the tour went on, with a new bassist.

I do not pretend to know the ins and outs and whys and wherefores of the situation that caused the band to continue. Seems to me, if there was any lipping done by Augeri, it obviously happened prior to the DL/Journey tour. When the DF/Journey tour began, wasn't Augeri THERE? If that was the case, then it would seem like things were going on as planned. What happened? Had Neal gotten to the point of not wanting to deal with "the tapes" anymore, so he allowed them to fall into the hands of someone who could get them to someone who could then get them to someone else who could then leak it out, causing this huge uproar over the entire situation? We'll never know, will we?

There is absolutely NO way that anyone is going to get me to believe that the entire decision was Augeri's and the band simply went along with it. To that, I say BULLSH*T! As I've said before, they are ALL culpable, including management.

But even after Augeri "bowed out," the tour continued with JSS. Why? For reasons stated above - that everyone connected with the tour would have been adversely affected by Journey having to withdraw from it. This isn't a garage band playing some local bar. It's a corporate structure in which thousands of people depend upon them for revenue, not just the five guys on stage at night.

[fred_journeyman]

So looking out solely for his own financial keester while pulling a fast one over on the loyal fans that gave him a chance is ur idea of a "nice guy"?
Your inclination to believe in the inherent goodness of ur rock heroes is clouding the view of the situation.
We took out our purses and wallets and Augeri dunked his hot-spiced italian sausage in it nightly.
Plain and simple.

The only rock "god" I have is Perry, sorry to disillusion you. Other than that, these are extremely talented guys who get up on stage and play.

Had they canceled the tour, it would have affected THOUSANDS of people financially, so they didn't.

Maybe Augeri felt that he didn't want to disappoint so he put it all on himself to keep himself going any way he could so that the "tours could go on."

Wow, Augeri really had a ton of power, didn't he? He made ALL the decisions. He told the guys what was going to be and when. He told them to jump and they asked, "how high boss?"

Did you ever consider that maybe this entire scenario was MANAGEMENT'S fault?

His voice had hit rock bottom by the end of the 2004 tour. It was about as far as he could take it. His reliance on his on-stage inhaler had become obscene. Tapes were being used for both high notes and some nites whole songs. This is not what Neal intended. Journey was never meant to be a pro-tools band and yet here Augeri was transmogrifying it into one. Upon learning the use of tapes would be diminished at the start of the DefLeppard tour Steve was not pleased at all.
This hanger-on simply didn't care whether he ran the band straight into the ground.

Okay, look you obviously have your viewpoint of Augeri and I have mine. I'm not looking at him through rose colored glasses at all. I'm looking at what I think is the reality that the decisions surrounding the use of tapes was not make by Augeri and Augeri alone. There is no way (in my mind) that he would have been able to foist that decision upon the entire band all by himself. Sorry.

It's been reported by two fans now that they were told the lyrics of the SoulSirkus track "Higher Ground" was written about members of Journey.

So, two fans now state that those lyrics are about Journey members, so it must be true? Whatever...

Considering vocal enhancements were first utilized in 2002, which tour exactly would u being referring to?

Considering the vocal enhancements were first utilized in 2002, why not get rid of Augeri WAAAAAAAAY before the DL tour? Oh, that's right...Augeri was the supremely powerful one in the band.

Uh...here's one for you...maybe it was management. Apparently, when it comes to Journey, Azoff is the all-powerful ONE.

[Granny]

I have a question...Everyone and I mean everyone knew that his voice (SA) was gone long before the 2006 tour...like by 2004....they -the band- had many months to find and 'train' a new singer...there are plenty out there that could have done the job...why didn't they look for someone to fill in for SA...besides Neal knew about JSS for a long time...why didn't he approach him sooner? G

[SteveForever]

I have a question...Everyone and I mean everyone knew that his voice (SA) was gone long before the 2006 tour...like by 2004....they -the band- had many months to find and 'train' a new singer...there are plenty out there that could have done the job...why didn't they look for someone to fill in for SA...besides Neal knew about JSS for a long time...why didn't he approach him sooner? G

Maybe Journey thought itself as sort of "done." Then this big tour idea came along and they had been advised by industry experts to keep up the pro-tools enhancement or whatever you want to call it so they ran with it...thinking everyone else was doing it so why not? Perhaps after this particular tour they were going to do their own projects and just kind of keep Journey alive with the swag and sales of previous works. BUT THEN.....THE HERO ARRIVED ON THE SCENE....and they came alive again !!!! just my opinion.

[ohsherrie]

I understand what you're saying Fred, and I agree as it applies to the 2005 tour. As I remember it was the beginning of that tour when it became obvious that Augeri was in big trouble vocally. What some of us don't understand is why they booked the UK dates and agreed to the tour with DL when they had to know he wasn't getting better. I know a lot of people's incomes would have been adversly effected by them taking time off until the issue could be resolved, but it would have been a lot better course of action than the tapes.

It does make one wonder if some legal circumstances within the corporation made it necessary to handle it the way they did. Maybe it was the only way to get the necessary changes made.

And they're evidently still struggling with the legal resolution.

[ohsherrie]

Maybe Journey thought itself as sort of "done." Then this big tour idea came along and they had been advised by industry experts to keep up the pro-tools enhancement or whatever you want to call it so they ran with it...thinking everyone else was doing it so why not? Perhaps after this particular tour they were going to do their own projects and just kind of keep Journey alive with the swag and sales of previous works. BUT THEN.....THE HERO ARRIVED ON THE SCENE....and they came alive again !!!! just my opinion.

Now there's a scenario that makes sense. Maybe management just couldn't pass up the chance for the DL tour and wanted to continue raking in the $$ for as long as they could before they had to just give it up. They still could have brought JSS in before the tour started though. They could have broken him into the band with the UK tour since he has a big following there anyway. Unless of course Augeri didn't want to be replaced and wouldn't agree to stepping down.

[KCfla]

I understand what you're saying Fred, and I agree as it applies to the 2005 tour. As I remember it was the beginning of that tour when it became obvious that Augeri was in big trouble vocally. What some of us don't understand is why they booked the UK dates and agreed to the tour with DL when they had to know he wasn't getting better. I know a lot of people's incomes would have been adversly effected by them taking time off until the issue could be resolved, but it would have been a lot better course of action than the tapes.

It does make one wonder if some legal circumstances within the corporation made it necessary to handle it the way they did. Maybe it was the only way to get the necessary changes made.

And they're evidently still struggling with the legal resolution.

What she said!!!!!

It would have been easier for them to just pass on the Euro-tour, and the DL tour . And by that I mean; IF Steve A's voice needed more time to heal ( if it ever does/has/will!) then wouldn't it have made more sense to say "maybe next year" to all those offers? Instead of pushing things to where they ended up?

Unless, of course, that was the point to pushing things. That they really wanted SA gone- and used this as an excuse to get rid of him???? Not that we'll ever know, mind

[Granny]

I understand what you're saying Fred, and I agree as it applies to the 2005 tour. As I remember it was the beginning of that tour when it became obvious that Augeri was in big trouble vocally. What some of us don't understand is why they booked the UK dates and agreed to the tour with DL when they had to know he wasn't getting better. I know a lot of people's incomes would have been adversly effected by them taking time off until the issue could be resolved, but it would have been a lot better course of action than the tapes.

It does make one wonder if some legal circumstances within the corporation made it necessary to handle it the way they did. Maybe it was the only way to get the necessary changes made.

And they're evidently still struggling with the legal resolution.

What she said!!!!!

It would have been easier for them to just pass on the Euro-tour, and the DL tour . And by that I mean; IF Steve A's voice needed more time to heal ( if it ever does/has/will!) then wouldn't it have made more sense to say "maybe next year" to all those offers? Instead of pushing things to where they ended up?

Unless, of course, that was the point to pushing things. That they really wanted SA gone- and used this as an excuse to get rid of him???? Not that we'll ever know, mind

Then thats where SA himself should have stepped in and said hey guys, my voice is shot, I need time off...where were his brains ?????

[Melissa]

The name of the SS song that's supposedly about you-know-who (yeah...ok) is actually HighEST Ground, not HighER Ground.

Sorry, bored at work. lol

Oh & if that's true, then WHO is the next line "I feel I've been here once before" about

lol