Not lipping here on Butterfly

[JrnyScarab]

What some don't seem to understand is that these bands are recorded constantly these days.

As great as Steve Perry was, the amount of live material available isn't that much when you really think about it. The guy had off nights. Also, I think many naysayers are tied to the studio recordings and do not understand what live rock music is really all about. Not saying Perry wasn't phenonminal, but then there was no internet and youtube to cover his every live note in each city all the time.

Jeff is under a microscope and it is completely unfair. The recordings I have heard show an amazing talent that Journey is EXTREMELY lucky to have in the year 2007. There is no one better suited to sing for this band.

How true this is AR. The Reno show wasn't THAT bad. Jeff sounded a little tired toward the end of the show and his voice was kind of raspy on some of the high notes but he still hit most of them pretty well. I would love to hear some of Perry's off nights. Maybe then a fair comparison could be made.

Thanks. Just saying what I believe to be true.

My collection of live shows from many bands (not just Journey) is enlightening. Live rock isn't always perfect, and it shouldn't be.

As I have said, the earlier incarnation of Journey was not taped every night and did not have nearly every single performance widely available on the internet.

I enjoy being able to get all these shows, but am disappointed in fans that rip select nights apart. I just understand it all better. I have so many shows from so many bands, that I have literally heard it all - both the good and the not so good.

Speaking of not so good. I heard a boot of Boston doing a show for Doug Flutie appreciation day here in Beantown. Some of those vocals were pretty bad. Very hard to be perfect every night. Especially as these bands age. The voice just takes a beating over time.

[strangegrey]

Ha ha, no cigar for you either...we put Chain & Message because they're fun to do & after screwing around with MANY songs at sound checks, we experimented with adding/deleting things based on what got the corwds off....much of the obscure stuff left them looking at us like we all had 3 heads! Every day, we toyed with things like La Do Da, Line Of Fire, Where Were You, etc., only omitting them because we knew they'd go over like a lead balloon....try harder next time for the reasons we do things or how we think

Ahh, That's too bad, Jeff. Because I would have been instantly sold on you in Journey if you guys were doing La Do Da, Line of Fire and Where were you! I understand though. Seriously, good to hear it right from the horse's mouth. I stand corrected. And you shoudn't be handing out cigars...you're a freakin singer for pete's sake!

[JrnyScarab]

Ha ha, no cigar for you either...we put Chain & Message because they're fun to do & after screwing around with MANY songs at sound checks, we experimented with adding/deleting things based on what got the corwds off....much of the obscure stuff left them looking at us like we all had 3 heads! Every day, we toyed with things like La Do Da, Line Of Fire, Where Were You, etc., only omitting them because we knew they'd go over like a lead balloon....try harder next time for the reasons we do things or how we think

What the fuck are you smoking?

Easy with the approach thanks. Frank is allowed to have his say - and you your reply. i don't want anyone thinking they cannot express an opinion here - even when I don't agree with it (I dig JSS's raspier/more rock n roll vibe...if you didn't already know!)

Listen gang...I've got a thick skin...it comes from years of liking Trevor Rabin over Steve Howe and getting blitzed by Yes fans....That and lots and lots of Donuts!


Seriously speaking. It's no secret I'm not convinced of JSS in this lineup yet. As it's been covered on our forums, JSS is very much a tenor, the 2 steves are high tenors. This means that both Perry and Augeri have a 'middle c' (I say that to suggest the middle of the vocal range, not a particular note) that's a bit higher than JSS's. JSS's comfort zone is a bit lower than the other two. Not opinion, pure scientific fact. Whether or not Augeri can currently reach his full upper range is an entirely different question, and a valid one right now.

The Reno boot, which is the only full length boot I've heard with JSS....is bad, real bad. JSS is struggling to hit notes all over it...which isn't surprising, since on certain journey songs, he's way out of his range. I suspect Reno was a bad night for him...as I've heard him sing the balls off of stuff as well....the videos that Andrew posted with his interviews are great examples.

It's just a valid point to put forth that Augeri, while of recent, has had very bad nights (when live)...JSS has em too!!

It's no surprise that Journey has adopted some 'other' songs in their live set. The inclusion of 'Message of Love' and 'Chain Reaction' are good examples, as they are less demanding songs for a lower voice.


Like I said, I remain unconvinced....perhaps a live show would do me good. Alas, the last time Journey passed through Long Island, they still had Augeri at the helm....so I've yet to see the band with JSS in person...so I'll have to base my current judgements on what I've heard.

I just listened to Coming Home from the Soul Sirkus CD....and that's probably a good indicator of where Journey will go with JSS......

time will tell.

Man, it's pretty sad that such a great variety of old tunes won't see the light of day live. Shows you the ratio of casual fans to fans with more insight into the bands history. Us hardcore types always suffer!!

[treetopovskaya]

troubled child & easy to fall need to be added to the set list.

anything from evolution (best journey album to date imo)... like sweet and simple. };C)

[AR]

Speaking of not so good. I heard a boot of Boston doing a show for Doug Flutie appreciation day here in Beantown. Some of those vocals were pretty bad. Very hard to be perfect every night. Especially as these bands age. The voice just takes a beating over time.

I have that show and agree.

One thing they were lacking was Fran Cosmo on that show. Brad Delp will often differ to Fran for some high notes. It's all about being a band and a team. Brad points to him, then applauds when Fran hits those notes. Not that Brad can't hit them, but why not get a break. Also Fran has helped Boston replicate the double tracked vocals from the first two albums in a live setting.

That's one of the reasons I like Deen singing some songs for Journey as well. Jeff can certainly sing the whole set, but why not let Deen take a song or two? It is fun and Deen is very, very good and I think we all like hearing him.

[Andrew]

I just listened to Coming Home from the Soul Sirkus CD....and that's probably a good indicator of where Journey will go with JSS......

time will tell.

A great place to start the JSS journey... Class song!

[strangegrey]

I just listened to Coming Home from the Soul Sirkus CD....and that's probably a good indicator of where Journey will go with JSS......

time will tell.

A great place to start the JSS journey... Class song!

Yup....that's what I hope is going to happen. Like I said, I'm not entirely convinced...and I wont be until I see this band live. I had the misfortune of not getting to see them, as one of Augeri's last shows was here on Long Island....so I'll have to wait...either that or fly to europe this spring!

[Blueskies]

Jeff....have you guys ever done Once You Love Somebody in a soundcheck?.....I dont think the band has performed that one since ROR have they?

[donnaplease]

Yea, sure, great...helps to have youth on your side, ha ha! Have 'em try it now, hell, even I'd quit!

Also, I could do sing this with my eyes closed if it were material catered to MY voice/style/writing/ad libs.....singing Mr. P's stuff now, I don't have the liberties or luxuries to 'skirt' the way one does to get through some of the more difficult ones, I do my damndest to deliver them the way people know them because they are not my songs. Listen to any old recording, official or boot, as amazing as he sounds singing, he worked around certain things to preserve his voice night after night, still made the song song great but because he wrote his stuff, he could get away with it, same as Freddie Mercury did & most every other killer singer out there.

Again, to hell with excuses, just giving the facts on how it all works....sucks to be 41 sometimes, ha ha.

Even though they were written for Mr. P BY Mr. P, do you think the 'perfectionist' in him drove him to create music that would push him beyond his own limits? Could that be what JC meant when he commented on BTM that he 'bled' a little each time he sang...?

And BTW Jeff, I think you do a super job delivering those songs!!! I cannot imagine anyone doing it better (other than the original, of course ).

[JrnyScarab]

Speaking of not so good. I heard a boot of Boston doing a show for Doug Flutie appreciation day here in Beantown. Some of those vocals were pretty bad. Very hard to be perfect every night. Especially as these bands age. The voice just takes a beating over time.

I have that show and agree.

One thing they were lacking was Fran Cosmo on that show. Brad Delp will often differ to Fran for some high notes. It's all about being a band and a team. Brad points to him, then applauds when Fran hits those notes. Not that Brad can't hit them, but why not get a break. Also Fran has helped Boston replicate the double tracked vocals from the first two albums in a live setting.

That's one of the reasons I like Deen singing some songs for Journey as well. Jeff can certainly sing the whole set, but why not let Deen take a song or two? It is fun and Deen is very, very good and I think we all like hearing him.

Didn't know Fran wasn't at that show. I saw them the last tour opening night in Manchester, NH and they sounded pretty good for the first show. They made some very obvious mistakes but just laughed them off and poked fun at themselves. That's the way to handle it. Seemed very down to earth about it all.

[ohsherrie]

Again, to hell with excuses, just giving the facts on how it all works....sucks to be 41 sometimes, ha ha.

Yeah, getting older totally sucks Jeff. You don't need to make excuses or explain anything though because you've done nothing wrong.

Every singer has off nights. Steve Perry had his share, Steve Augeri had way more than his share, you will have your share too, but not more than your share because you're too much the professional to let that happen.

[JSS]

Was only in reference to the Def Lep tour, not the future

Ha ha, no cigar for you either...we put Chain & Message because they're fun to do & after screwing around with MANY songs at sound checks, we experimented with adding/deleting things based on what got the corwds off....much of the obscure stuff left them looking at us like we all had 3 heads! Every day, we toyed with things like La Do Da, Line Of Fire, Where Were You, etc., only omitting them because we knew they'd go over like a lead balloon....try harder next time for the reasons we do things or how we think

What the fuck are you smoking?

Easy with the approach thanks. Frank is allowed to have his say - and you your reply. i don't want anyone thinking they cannot express an opinion here - even when I don't agree with it (I dig JSS's raspier/more rock n roll vibe...if you didn't already know!)

Listen gang...I've got a thick skin...it comes from years of liking Trevor Rabin over Steve Howe and getting blitzed by Yes fans....That and lots and lots of Donuts!


Seriously speaking. It's no secret I'm not convinced of JSS in this lineup yet. As it's been covered on our forums, JSS is very much a tenor, the 2 steves are high tenors. This means that both Perry and Augeri have a 'middle c' (I say that to suggest the middle of the vocal range, not a particular note) that's a bit higher than JSS's. JSS's comfort zone is a bit lower than the other two. Not opinion, pure scientific fact. Whether or not Augeri can currently reach his full upper range is an entirely different question, and a valid one right now.

The Reno boot, which is the only full length boot I've heard with JSS....is bad, real bad. JSS is struggling to hit notes all over it...which isn't surprising, since on certain journey songs, he's way out of his range. I suspect Reno was a bad night for him...as I've heard him sing the balls off of stuff as well....the videos that Andrew posted with his interviews are great examples.

It's just a valid point to put forth that Augeri, while of recent, has had very bad nights (when live)...JSS has em too!!

It's no surprise that Journey has adopted some 'other' songs in their live set. The inclusion of 'Message of Love' and 'Chain Reaction' are good examples, as they are less demanding songs for a lower voice.


Like I said, I remain unconvinced....perhaps a live show would do me good. Alas, the last time Journey passed through Long Island, they still had Augeri at the helm....so I've yet to see the band with JSS in person...so I'll have to base my current judgements on what I've heard.

I just listened to Coming Home from the Soul Sirkus CD....and that's probably a good indicator of where Journey will go with JSS......

time will tell.

Man, it's pretty sad that such a great variety of old tunes won't see the light of day live. Shows you the ratio of casual fans to fans with more insight into the bands history. Us hardcore types always suffer!!

[AR]

Again, to hell with excuses, just giving the facts on how it all works....sucks to be 41 sometimes, ha ha.

No excuses necessary. Some just don't get it Jeff.

One of my favorite singers ever is Ronnie James Dio. He is in his 60's now. I still appreciate what he can deliver, but even RJD has his off nights these days.

Dude you might be 41, but most would peg you ten years younger than that at least.

[JrnyScarab]

Was only in reference to the Def Lep tour, not the future

Ha ha, no cigar for you either...we put Chain & Message because they're fun to do & after screwing around with MANY songs at sound checks, we experimented with adding/deleting things based on what got the corwds off....much of the obscure stuff left them looking at us like we all had 3 heads! Every day, we toyed with things like La Do Da, Line Of Fire, Where Were You, etc., only omitting them because we knew they'd go over like a lead balloon....try harder next time for the reasons we do things or how we think

What the fuck are you smoking?

Easy with the approach thanks. Frank is allowed to have his say - and you your reply. i don't want anyone thinking they cannot express an opinion here - even when I don't agree with it (I dig JSS's raspier/more rock n roll vibe...if you didn't already know!)

Listen gang...I've got a thick skin...it comes from years of liking Trevor Rabin over Steve Howe and getting blitzed by Yes fans....That and lots and lots of Donuts!


Seriously speaking. It's no secret I'm not convinced of JSS in this lineup yet. As it's been covered on our forums, JSS is very much a tenor, the 2 steves are high tenors. This means that both Perry and Augeri have a 'middle c' (I say that to suggest the middle of the vocal range, not a particular note) that's a bit higher than JSS's. JSS's comfort zone is a bit lower than the other two. Not opinion, pure scientific fact. Whether or not Augeri can currently reach his full upper range is an entirely different question, and a valid one right now.

The Reno boot, which is the only full length boot I've heard with JSS....is bad, real bad. JSS is struggling to hit notes all over it...which isn't surprising, since on certain journey songs, he's way out of his range. I suspect Reno was a bad night for him...as I've heard him sing the balls off of stuff as well....the videos that Andrew posted with his interviews are great examples.

It's just a valid point to put forth that Augeri, while of recent, has had very bad nights (when live)...JSS has em too!!

It's no surprise that Journey has adopted some 'other' songs in their live set. The inclusion of 'Message of Love' and 'Chain Reaction' are good examples, as they are less demanding songs for a lower voice.


Like I said, I remain unconvinced....perhaps a live show would do me good. Alas, the last time Journey passed through Long Island, they still had Augeri at the helm....so I've yet to see the band with JSS in person...so I'll have to base my current judgements on what I've heard.

I just listened to Coming Home from the Soul Sirkus CD....and that's probably a good indicator of where Journey will go with JSS......

time will tell.

Man, it's pretty sad that such a great variety of old tunes won't see the light of day live. Shows you the ratio of casual fans to fans with more insight into the bands history. Us hardcore types always suffer!!

GREAT!!!

[Crazie Scarab]

Nice to know!

Was only in reference to the Def Lep tour, not the future

Ha ha, no cigar for you either...we put Chain & Message because they're fun to do & after screwing around with MANY songs at sound checks, we experimented with adding/deleting things based on what got the corwds off....much of the obscure stuff left them looking at us like we all had 3 heads! Every day, we toyed with things like La Do Da, Line Of Fire, Where Were You, etc., only omitting them because we knew they'd go over like a lead balloon....try harder next time for the reasons we do things or how we think

What the fuck are you smoking?

Easy with the approach thanks. Frank is allowed to have his say - and you your reply. i don't want anyone thinking they cannot express an opinion here - even when I don't agree with it (I dig JSS's raspier/more rock n roll vibe...if you didn't already know!)

Listen gang...I've got a thick skin...it comes from years of liking Trevor Rabin over Steve Howe and getting blitzed by Yes fans....That and lots and lots of Donuts!


Seriously speaking. It's no secret I'm not convinced of JSS in this lineup yet. As it's been covered on our forums, JSS is very much a tenor, the 2 steves are high tenors. This means that both Perry and Augeri have a 'middle c' (I say that to suggest the middle of the vocal range, not a particular note) that's a bit higher than JSS's. JSS's comfort zone is a bit lower than the other two. Not opinion, pure scientific fact. Whether or not Augeri can currently reach his full upper range is an entirely different question, and a valid one right now.

The Reno boot, which is the only full length boot I've heard with JSS....is bad, real bad. JSS is struggling to hit notes all over it...which isn't surprising, since on certain journey songs, he's way out of his range. I suspect Reno was a bad night for him...as I've heard him sing the balls off of stuff as well....the videos that Andrew posted with his interviews are great examples.

It's just a valid point to put forth that Augeri, while of recent, has had very bad nights (when live)...JSS has em too!!

It's no surprise that Journey has adopted some 'other' songs in their live set. The inclusion of 'Message of Love' and 'Chain Reaction' are good examples, as they are less demanding songs for a lower voice.


Like I said, I remain unconvinced....perhaps a live show would do me good. Alas, the last time Journey passed through Long Island, they still had Augeri at the helm....so I've yet to see the band with JSS in person...so I'll have to base my current judgements on what I've heard.

I just listened to Coming Home from the Soul Sirkus CD....and that's probably a good indicator of where Journey will go with JSS......

time will tell.

Man, it's pretty sad that such a great variety of old tunes won't see the light of day live. Shows you the ratio of casual fans to fans with more insight into the bands history. Us hardcore types always suffer!!

[treetopovskaya]

I just listened to Coming Home from the Soul Sirkus CD....and that's probably a good indicator of where Journey will go with JSS......

time will tell.

A great place to start the JSS journey... Class song!

Yup....that's what I hope is going to happen. Like I said, I'm not entirely convinced...and I wont be until I see this band live. I had the misfortune of not getting to see them, as one of Augeri's last shows was here on Long Island....so I'll have to wait...either that or fly to europe this spring!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8T1XAdw9Tg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4e0pKhHTXNw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TxvYlJulAI

[JrnyScarab]

Again, to hell with excuses, just giving the facts on how it all works....sucks to be 41 sometimes, ha ha.

No excuses necessary. Some just don't get it Jeff.

One of my favorite singers ever is Ronnie James Dio. He is in his 60's now. I still appreciate what he can deliver, but even RJD has his off nights these days.

Dude you might be 41, but most would peg you ten years younger than that at least.

DIO is a ROCK GOD. One of the finest rock voices I've ever heard. Such a powerful voice from such a pint sized guy!

[StevePerryHair]

I just listened to Coming Home from the Soul Sirkus CD....and that's probably a good indicator of where Journey will go with JSS......

time will tell.

A great place to start the JSS journey... Class song!

Yup....that's what I hope is going to happen. Like I said, I'm not entirely convinced...and I wont be until I see this band live. I had the misfortune of not getting to see them, as one of Augeri's last shows was here on Long Island....so I'll have to wait...either that or fly to europe this spring!

I hope you get to see them live SOON I know it doesn't guarantee convincing, but I hope it will! There is so much energy on that stage, you just can't imagine it until your there, in person! Maybe I'm at an advantage since I saw them live 4 times BEFORE I heard a sound board

[donnaplease]

DIO is a ROCK GOD. One of the finest rock voices I've ever heard. Such a powerful voice from such a pint sized guy!

I would say the same thing, only about STEVE PERRY!!!!
Sorry to bust in here, I just couldn't resist!

[Rockindeano]

What some don't seem to understand is that these bands are recorded constantly these days.

True.

As great as Steve Perry was, the amount of live material available isn't that much when you really think about it. The guy had off nights.

Um, no he didn't. That guy NEVER had an off night. Well, to him maybe, but not to the fans. I saw in the Cow Palace in 86, ROR. He fucked up and sang the 2nd verse to Ask the Lonely twice. THAT was a fuckup to Steve Perry.

Sorry AR, He never shit the bed when he sang live...NEVER.

[JrnyScarab]

DIO is a ROCK GOD. One of the finest rock voices I've ever heard. Such a powerful voice from such a pint sized guy!

I would say the same thing, only about STEVE PERRY!!!!
Sorry to bust in here, I just couldn't resist!

OK Donnaplease, I'll give you that. There doesn't have to be just one ROCK GOD!

[StevePerryHair]

Whatever, everybody loves the guy, it ain't gonna change and I don't want it to. I like him, I just don't think his range is right for Journey.
If it was, Deen wouldn't be doing any of the songs in the show.[/quote]

How many times must it be mentioned? The reason Deen is still singing now is because he got used to it on the past tours & now enjoys it as well the fans do....has NOTHING to do with me not being able to do everything (as I have on occasions Deen was under the weather), it has everything to do with the fact that his participation is now a vital part of the band, of the show, & who am I to come & say 'ok, your new singer is here, step aside, I'll be handling all the vocals now'....good try, but no cigar![/quote]



I had the privilege of hearing JSS sing ALL ballads in Buffalo, when Deen was sick. I can tell you he hit EVERY note needed and he could do it every night if he had to I'm sure. I also have to say, I enjoy hearing Deen sing, and I'm so glad they decided to have him continue! He has an amazing voice and I enjoy listening to him also!

[treetopovskaya]

DIO is a ROCK GOD. One of the finest rock voices I've ever heard. Such a powerful voice from such a pint sized guy!

I would say the same thing, only about STEVE PERRY!!!!
Sorry to bust in here, I just couldn't resist!

HAHAHAA!!

sp's still 5-6 inches taller then me tho! }:Cþ

[treetopovskaya]

What some don't seem to understand is that these bands are recorded constantly these days.

True.

As great as Steve Perry was, the amount of live material available isn't that much when you really think about it. The guy had off nights.

Um, no he didn't. That guy NEVER had an off night. Well, to him maybe, but not to the fans. I saw in the Cow Palace in 86, ROR. He fucked up and sang the 2nd verse to Ask the Lonely twice. THAT was a fuckup to Steve Perry.

Sorry AR, He never shit the bed when he sang live...NEVER.

check this out... i think sp messes up on the words towards the end. did he say pee light??? lol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqtNKmOchQ

[AR]

What some don't seem to understand is that these bands are recorded constantly these days.

True.

As great as Steve Perry was, the amount of live material available isn't that much when you really think about it. The guy had off nights.

Um, no he didn't. That guy NEVER had an off night. Well, to him maybe, but not to the fans. I saw in the Cow Palace in 86, ROR. He fucked up and sang the 2nd verse to Ask the Lonely twice. THAT was a fuckup to Steve Perry.

Sorry AR, He never shit the bed when he sang live...NEVER.

I'm not suggesting theat he shit the bead Dean. No one is perfect - not even SP. There is not enough boots from the 70's and 80's compared to what is available now.

I wasn't a big fan of the rushed, sped up stuff I heard from the ROR tour at all. Not really impressed by the FTLOSM tour boots either.

However, I am not being a Perry basher here, he was a great live performer. Not saying he wasn't.

Just think that now, there is so much available material from all bands that it isn't really fair to compare.

[Rockindeano]

What some don't seem to understand is that these bands are recorded constantly these days.

True.

As great as Steve Perry was, the amount of live material available isn't that much when you really think about it. The guy had off nights.

Um, no he didn't. That guy NEVER had an off night. Well, to him maybe, but not to the fans. I saw in the Cow Palace in 86, ROR. He fucked up and sang the 2nd verse to Ask the Lonely twice. THAT was a fuckup to Steve Perry.

Sorry AR, He never shit the bed when he sang live...NEVER.

I'm not suggesting theat he shit the bead Dean. No one is perfect - not even SP. There is not enough boots from the 70's and 80's compared to what is available now.

I wasn't a big fan of the rushed, sped up stuff I heard from the ROR tour at all. Not really impressed by the FTLOSM tour boots either.

However, I am not being a Perry basher here, he was a great live performer. Not saying he wasn't.

Just think that now, there is so much available material from all bands that it isn't really fair to compare.

I get what you are saying Ed, however, every show is taped, every one. However, once you had a boot, you couldn't throw it up on computer and share it with 260 million people.

I would bet my kids eyes Perry always sounded good tho. He was God when he sang. That cracks me up. The Augeri fans saying, "Steve Who (Perry)" That just makes them look like the retarded rhino twats that they are.

[stevew2]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cpd59W7y98

Thanks for posting this.I didnt think Steve was allowed to sing this song. He tried,and I dont think it was that bad. He tried his best,and should have just put the guitar away. I think it was live .Im not sure about the high notes after the tech came up at the end. It was a good try,and I could tell Neal didnt give a shit what Steve was doing. Thanks again for the clip. Kill me for being a wiggler,but I still like that song.

[Liam]

Well....that's a board I won't even attempt to join. Either they buy tapegate and just hate you, Deano, OR they're just Blinded by retardation. I'm opting for the latter.

[Barb]

Well....that's a board I won't even attempt to join. Either they buy tapegate and just hate you, Deano, OR they're just Blinded by retardation. I'm opting for the latter.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I buy tapegate, but I blame the entire band -- not just Augeri.

I saw a show with Jeff and liked it a lot, but hear the boots and get discouraged. I'm trying to be in the Jrny + JSS camp, but not sure if I'll ever end up there. Time will tell. At least that option is welcome at journeyforums.com; that's not a popular opinion here -- even it's an honest one.

[Rockindeano]

Well....that's a board I won't even attempt to join. Either they buy tapegate and just hate you, Deano, OR they're just Blinded by retardation. I'm opting for the latter.

The board is a good idea. Of course this is the best board and BT is the worst, but there are HT ers on there who are available for open discussion. However, i ask them questions, they flee like doves on a railraod track when the train is comin.'

Spineless.