Dismal sales?

[JRNYMAN]

Thanks, WikiDon.

Does that mean anyone can add anything they want to his knowledge base - regardless of its validity?

[Arkansas]

Midweek projections were 30k. I'm thinking maybe 45k.
Zero promo at the stores. No one knew the album was on amazon.
After the success of revelation I thought this launch would have a bigger push.
Over confidence? Relying on new DSB fans?
Someone in marketing blew it big time.
The band did not help themselves with radio interviews. They let the subject stay on arnel more than the new album.
Bad job by everyone this launch except here at MR.
We were the only promo in town it seems.

More when I get back from the beach.

I still don't think this album was really ever meant to sell. It was an NS project and they tossed it out thru WM, simply because they could. They're gonna tour for a couple years and make a few bucks. They'll all be happy and won't care about album sales. IMO, they've probably already got their sound bytes ready about why it did or didn't sell in what countries.

We can b!tch & moan all we want about the lack of marketing & promo, but until the band does, then it's meaningless. I'm sure there were discussions about how much to spend where, and Azoff & the band said, "why waste the money?" Their projected income is based on the tour, not this album.


later~

[Don]

Thanks, WikiDon.

Does that mean anyone can add anything they want to his knowledge base - regardless of its validity?

I do try to get my numbers from a more reliable source than Wikipedia. I've had to edit some Journey lore myself on that site, due to overzealous fans making up their own facts.

[JRNYMAN]

Thanks, WikiDon.

Does that mean anyone can add anything they want to his knowledge base - regardless of its validity?

I do try to get my numbers from a more reliable source than Wikipedia. I've had to edit some Journey lore myself on that site, due to overzealous fans making up their own facts.

I was just kidding, Don. And I absolutely trust that your info is always credible and accurate. Though you don't know me, I've lurked here for a long time and have come to know that... how do I say this without sounding like I'm sucking up here....? It's pretty much common knowledge that info posted by you is bank-worthy.

Cheers!

Steve

[Saint John]

Midweek projections were 30k. I'm thinking maybe 45k.
Zero promo at the stores. No one knew the album was on amazon.
After the success of revelation I thought this launch would have a bigger push.
Over confidence? Relying on new DSB fans?
Someone in marketing blew it big time.
The band did not help themselves with radio interviews. They let the subject stay on arnel more than the new album.
Bad job by everyone this launch except here at MR.
We were the only promo in town it seems.

More when I get back from the beach.

I still don't think this album was really ever meant to sell. It was an NS project and they tossed it out thru WM, simply because they could. They're gonna tour for a couple years and make a few bucks. They'll all be happy and won't care about album sales. IMO, they've probably already got their sound bytes ready about why it did or didn't sell in what countries.

We can b!tch & moan all we want about the lack of marketing & promo, but until the band does, then it's meaningless. I'm sure there were discussions about how much to spend where, and Azoff & the band said, "why waste the money?" Their projected income is based on the tour, not this album.


later~

Boy, nothing could be further from the truth! They stand (or stood) to make a TON on this CD!!! They made, by all accounts, about $6 per Revelation package sold, and this one only has one CD in it, and, thus, far less overhead. My *guess* is that they'll make about $7 per Eclipse CD sold, and that could turn into a pile of money ... if it sells. They care about sales, trust me! 280,000 units sold, or about a third of what Revelation did, is almost 2 million dollars!

[Don]

Thanks, WikiDon.

Does that mean anyone can add anything they want to his knowledge base - regardless of its validity?

I do try to get my numbers from a more reliable source than Wikipedia. I've had to edit some Journey lore myself on that site, due to overzealous fans making up their own facts.

I was just kidding, Don. And I absolutely trust that your info is always credible and accurate. Though you don't know me, I've lurked here for a long time and have come to know that... how do I say this without sounding like I'm sucking up here....? It's pretty much common knowledge that info posted by you is bank-worthy.

Cheers!

Steve

Well, I did have a pretty good record until my 100k prediction for Eclipse. That set me back tons in the credibility department. I went with first hand information (band members) concerning the marketing and got burned. I should have just stuck to my regular sources and own intuition.

[Greg]

As of this week, Journey's Greatest Hits is 106 on the Billboard 200, Eclipse is nowhere to be found.

Walmart hasn't reported the numbers. It'll chart when they do. My guess is that the report date falling on a holiday at an exclusive retailer means that the numbers won't be reported this week. The Anderson employees, the company that stocked the CDs (and did a really shitty job), were probably off yesterday.

Greg is looking at the week prior to Eclipse. The new numbers will on Billboard Thursday morning and possibly elsewhere before then.

I dunno. I guess. It just said week of June 4th. Most people would go to the website and week of June 4th and assume those numbers for that particular week. I did look back to last week's Billboard 200 and saw differences with rankings, so maybe they are a "week" behind. But, seeing as how Journey just sold around 20-30k, I wouldn't see how Eclipse would be charting very highly.

[steveo777]

Thanks, WikiDon.

Does that mean anyone can add anything they want to his knowledge base - regardless of its validity?

I do try to get my numbers from a more reliable source than Wikipedia. I've had to edit some Journey lore myself on that site, due to overzealous fans making up their own facts.

I was just kidding, Don. And I absolutely trust that your info is always credible and accurate. Though you don't know me, I've lurked here for a long time and have come to know that... how do I say this without sounding like I'm sucking up here....? It's pretty much common knowledge that info posted by you is bank-worthy.

Cheers!

Steve

Well, I did have a pretty good record until my 100k prediction for Eclipse. That set me back tons in the credibility department. I went with first hand information (band members) concerning the marketing and got burned. I should have just stuck to my regular sources and own intuition.

How many has it sold?

[Don]

Thanks, WikiDon.

Does that mean anyone can add anything they want to his knowledge base - regardless of its validity?

I do try to get my numbers from a more reliable source than Wikipedia. I've had to edit some Journey lore myself on that site, due to overzealous fans making up their own facts.

I was just kidding, Don. And I absolutely trust that your info is always credible and accurate. Though you don't know me, I've lurked here for a long time and have come to know that... how do I say this without sounding like I'm sucking up here....? It's pretty much common knowledge that info posted by you is bank-worthy.

Cheers!

Steve

Well, I did have a pretty good record until my 100k prediction for Eclipse. That set me back tons in the credibility department. I went with first hand information (band members) concerning the marketing and got burned. I should have just stuck to my regular sources and own intuition.

How many has it sold?

Not 100k. The numbers haven't come out yet but the highest total I can think of it hitting for the debut is 50k. Even that is a pretty bold prediction considering it was projected at mid week to land around the 30k range.

[brywool]

Midweek projections were 30k. I'm thinking maybe 45k.
Zero promo at the stores. No one knew the album was on amazon.
After the success of revelation I thought this launch would have a bigger push.
Over confidence? Relying on new DSB fans?
Someone in marketing blew it big time.
The band did not help themselves with radio interviews. They let the subject stay on arnel more than the new album.
Bad job by everyone this launch except here at MR.
We were the only promo in town it seems.

More when I get back from the beach.

I still don't think this album was really ever meant to sell. It was an NS project and they tossed it out thru WM, simply because they could. They're gonna tour for a couple years and make a few bucks. They'll all be happy and won't care about album sales. IMO, they've probably already got their sound bytes ready about why it did or didn't sell in what countries.

We can b!tch & moan all we want about the lack of marketing & promo, but until the band does, then it's meaningless. I'm sure there were discussions about how much to spend where, and Azoff & the band said, "why waste the money?" Their projected income is based on the tour, not this album.


later~

Boy, nothing could be further from the truth! They stand (or stood) to make a TON on this CD!!! They made, by all accounts, about $6 per Revelation package sold, and this one only has one CD in it, and, thus, far less overhead. My *guess* is that they'll make about $7 per Eclipse CD sold, and that could turn into a pile of money ... if it sells. They care about sales, trust me! 280,000 units sold, or about a third of what Revelation did, is almost 2 million dollars!

Please Dan, I cannot understand what you're saying unless you put it in finger quotes:

[Don]

Midweek projections were 30k. I'm thinking maybe 45k.
Zero promo at the stores. No one knew the album was on amazon.
After the success of revelation I thought this launch would have a bigger push.
Over confidence? Relying on new DSB fans?
Someone in marketing blew it big time.
The band did not help themselves with radio interviews. They let the subject stay on arnel more than the new album.
Bad job by everyone this launch except here at MR.
We were the only promo in town it seems.

More when I get back from the beach.

I still don't think this album was really ever meant to sell. It was an NS project and they tossed it out thru WM, simply because they could. They're gonna tour for a couple years and make a few bucks. They'll all be happy and won't care about album sales. IMO, they've probably already got their sound bytes ready about why it did or didn't sell in what countries.

We can b!tch & moan all we want about the lack of marketing & promo, but until the band does, then it's meaningless. I'm sure there were discussions about how much to spend where, and Azoff & the band said, "why waste the money?" Their projected income is based on the tour, not this album.


later~

Boy, nothing could be further from the truth! They stand (or stood) to make a TON on this CD!!! They made, by all accounts, about $6 per Revelation package sold, and this one only has one CD in it, and, thus, far less overhead. My *guess* is that they'll make about $7 per Eclipse CD sold, and that could turn into a pile of money ... if it sells. They care about sales, trust me! 280,000 units sold, or about a third of what Revelation did, is almost 2 million dollars!

I don't understand why people don't get that. The overseas sales are fine but Frontiers is not paying them probably even a third of what Wal-Mart has on the table. The band is still in it to win it. Cain and Schon have families and they know the window for big paydays is closing soon. These guys are pros, they know that solo projects are where you fuck off financially. Wal-Mart deals serve one purpose more than anything else, to make money.

[Saint John]

I don't understand why people don't get that. The overseas sales are fine but Frontiers is not paying them probably even a third of what Wal-Mart has on the table. The band is still in it to win it. Cain and Schon have families and they know the window for big paydays is closing soon. These guys are pros, they know that solo projects are where you fuck off financially. Wal-Mart deals serve one purpose more than anything else, to make money.

The band and management have both failed miserably. Perhaps the strong week to week sales of Revelation spoiled them, but I don't see Eclipse having that sort of staying power. The promotion for that CD was second to none. They had the GQ article, the Oprah show, the Ellen show, CBS Sunday Morning Show, the Rockline interview and they were on the TVs in Walmart. Now, after selling well, they promote it with ... nothing. Sure, the Oprah, Ellen and CBS gigs were one time deals, but I thought for sure with the break in their touring schedule around the release date that they were going to hit a late night show and/or do some other promotions. Nada.

Management really shit on their shoes by not getting Walmart to agree to a display. That, more than anything, is killing sales. Walking through the 3 stores I've been to since the release, you wouldn't even know it's for sale. Mind-boggling.

[Arkansas]

Midweek projections were 30k. I'm thinking maybe 45k.
Zero promo at the stores. No one knew the album was on amazon.
After the success of revelation I thought this launch would have a bigger push.
Over confidence? Relying on new DSB fans?
Someone in marketing blew it big time.
The band did not help themselves with radio interviews. They let the subject stay on arnel more than the new album.
Bad job by everyone this launch except here at MR.
We were the only promo in town it seems.

More when I get back from the beach.

I still don't think this album was really ever meant to sell. It was an NS project and they tossed it out thru WM, simply because they could. They're gonna tour for a couple years and make a few bucks. They'll all be happy and won't care about album sales. IMO, they've probably already got their sound bytes ready about why it did or didn't sell in what countries.

We can b!tch & moan all we want about the lack of marketing & promo, but until the band does, then it's meaningless. I'm sure there were discussions about how much to spend where, and Azoff & the band said, "why waste the money?" Their projected income is based on the tour, not this album.


later~

Boy, nothing could be further from the truth! They stand (or stood) to make a TON on this CD!!! They made, by all accounts, about $6 per Revelation package sold, and this one only has one CD in it, and, thus, far less overhead. My *guess* is that they'll make about $7 per Eclipse CD sold, and that could turn into a pile of money ... if it sells. They care about sales, trust me! 280,000 units sold, or about a third of what Revelation did, is almost 2 million dollars!

So you were in on all the promo planning sessions? You know the marketing budgets for all this?
Please enlighten us on exactly what all their plans were/are for this record.
And if they're making so much cash off this record, then that further supports my suspicions. They'll make whatever they can without wasting a penny of their own.



later~

[Art Vandelay]

I don't understand why people don't get that. The overseas sales are fine but Frontiers is not paying them probably even a third of what Wal-Mart has on the table. The band is still in it to win it. Cain and Schon have families and they know the window for big paydays is closing soon. These guys are pros, they know that solo projects are where you fuck off financially. Wal-Mart deals serve one purpose more than anything else, to make money.

The band and management have both failed miserably. Perhaps the strong week to week sales of Revelation spoiled them, but I don't see Eclipse having that sort of staying power. The promotion for that CD was second to none. They had the GQ article, the Oprah show, the Ellen show, CBS Sunday Morning Show, the Rockline interview and they were on the TVs in Walmart. Now, after selling well, they promote it with ... nothing. Sure, the Oprah, Ellen and CBS gigs were one time deals, but I thought for sure with the break in their touring schedule around the release date that they were going to hit a late night show and/or do some other promotions. Nada.

Management really shit on their shoes by not getting Walmart to agree to a display. That, more than anything, is killing sales. Walking through the 3 stores I've been to since the release, you wouldn't even know it's for sale. Mind-boggling.

It wasn't the new music that garnered them all of that press and attention. First it was Arnel's rags-to-riches story that got the attention. Then it was showcasing Arnel as the second coming of Steve Perry that allowed them to flex their muscle on tv and on video loops in WalMart - hence the re-recorded GH disc and the live disc of old material. Journey and their management knew this and ran with it. What garnered the attention was Journey's classic legacy and the fact that a struggling cover singer from the other side of the world could keep that classic train running. Their classic songs and legacy are bigger than the band itself, and without any of that being attached to a new project, it's not going to be commercially successful.

[Saint John]

It wasn't the new music that garnered them all of that press and attention. First it was Arnel's rags-to-riches story that got the attention. Then it was showcasing Arnel as the second coming of Steve Perry that allowed them to flex their muscle on tv and on video loops in WalMart - hence the re-recorded GH disc and the live disc of old material. Journey and their management knew this and ran with it. What garnered the attention was Journey's classic legacy and the fact that a struggling cover singer from the other side of the world could keep that classic train running. Their classic songs and legacy are bigger than the band itself, and without any of that being attached to a new project, it's not going to be commercially successful.

The re-records didn't help move the first package at all. None, zip, zilch, nada. The only thing they did was help it go Platinum because it counted as second disc. Greatest Hits has moved 15 million copies in the U.S. and Escape and Frontiers (much of GH) have moved a combined 15 million albums. Combine that with GH Live, The Essential Journey, and you're approaching 32 million. No one needed re-records of the Greatest Hits ... they already had them!

The story was definitely the promotional tool that pushed sales. But people knew it was on sale. Now? No one knows. I asked a few friends that I talked into buying revelation when they asked me about it and not one, with God as my witness, knew Eclipse was even out. This isn't a quality of product issue or what isn't packaged along with it, but, rather, the fact that no one even knows about it. And if you were walking through Walmart on one of the busiest weekends of the year, you still wouldn't know it's out. Most people are reporting that Walmart didn't even put up with the new releases! Trying to attach that old, stale argument that people decided to buy it for re-records is just silly. And untrue.

This all falls on management for an absolutely horrendous job of promoting the album, and of not ensuring that Walmart do their part. It's gonna take a lot to even crack 100K now ... something they did in Revelation's first week.

[Arkansas]

And so the band, once again, has no responsibility. Interesting.
Didn't we argue this same thing over Arrival & Sony? That record flopped because of no promo or mktg too, right?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv5FwzRBc_Y


later~

[jrny84]

Besides Revelation, I dont think Journey promotes their stuff very well at all. Its pretty much been a problem for them it seems like since Perry left. Did Arrival even get promoted very well?

[Greg]

It wasn't the new music that garnered them all of that press and attention. First it was Arnel's rags-to-riches story that got the attention. Then it was showcasing Arnel as the second coming of Steve Perry that allowed them to flex their muscle on tv and on video loops in WalMart - hence the re-recorded GH disc and the live disc of old material. Journey and their management knew this and ran with it. What garnered the attention was Journey's classic legacy and the fact that a struggling cover singer from the other side of the world could keep that classic train running. Their classic songs and legacy are bigger than the band itself, and without any of that being attached to a new project, it's not going to be commercially successful.

The re-records didn't help move the first package [b]at all. None, zip, zilch, nada. [/b]The only thing they did was help it go Platinum because it counted as second disc. Greatest Hits has moved 15 million copies in the U.S. and Escape and Frontiers (much of GH) have moved a combined 15 million albums. Combine that with GH Live, The Essential Journey, and you're approaching 32 million. No one needed re-records of the Greatest Hits ... they already had them!

The story was definitely the promotional tool that pushed sales. But people knew it was on sale. Now? No one knows. I asked a few friends that I talked into buying revelation when they asked me about it and not one, with God as my witness, knew Eclipse was even out. This isn't a quality of product issue or what isn't packaged along with it, but, rather, the fact that no one even knows about it. And if you were walking through Walmart on one of the busiest weekends of the year, you still wouldn't know it's out. Most people are reporting that Walmart didn't even put up with the new releases! Trying to attach that old, stale argument that people decided to buy it for re-records is just silly. And untrue.

This all falls on management for an absolutely horrendous job of promoting the album, and of not ensuring that Walmart do their part. It's gonna take a lot to even crack 100K now ... something they did in Revelation's first week.

I have to disagree with you on that one Dan. I believe most people, except for the hardcore fans and the new "Arnel" fans, purchased Revelation because it had those Greatest Hits on there. Heck, I betcha some probably thought the greatest hits CD was the same standalone GH album that is still charting on Billboard.com, only to have a complete album with new songs on it as a bonus. But, to say that the re-records didn't help one bit to push Revelation out would be a very optimistic, but wrong assumption that Revelation sold based on its own merits.

[Eric]

Revelation was driven by Oprah, Ellen, price and a triple content package. 500k would have been a reasonable goal for Eclipse, but they better do more than the Today Show. Still...the tour will keep this thing in the moving stage for a while.

[Greg]

...and not to mention that Revelation was counted twice because of it being a package deal, correct? If true, then reality is Revelation sold half as much as people are claiming it did.

[Saint John]

I have to disagree with you on that one Dan. I believe most people, except for the hardcore fans and the new "Arnel" fans, purchased Revelation because it had those Greatest Hits on there. Heck, I betcha some probably thought the greatest hits CD was the same standalone GH album that is still charting on Billboard.com, only to have a complete album with new songs on it as a bonus. But, to say that the re-records didn't help one bit to push Revelation out would be a very optimistic, but wrong assumption that Revelation sold based on its own merits.

Journey had a big sticker right on the front of the package informing people that they were, in fact, re-records with a new singer. You couldn't miss it, but if you did there was a Filipino dude standing front and center on the back of the package! People knew what they were buying. Give people some credit. No one throws $12 away at Walmart. They don't exactly have high-end shoppers like Tiffany's!

[Greg]

I have to disagree with you on that one Dan. I believe most people, except for the hardcore fans and the new "Arnel" fans, purchased Revelation because it had those Greatest Hits on there. Heck, I betcha some probably thought the greatest hits CD was the same standalone GH album that is still charting on Billboard.com, only to have a complete album with new songs on it as a bonus. But, to say that the re-records didn't help one bit to push Revelation out would be a very optimistic, but wrong assumption that Revelation sold based on its own merits.

Journey had a big sticker right on the front of the package informing people that they were, in fact, re-records with a new singer. You couldn't miss it, but if you did there was a Filipino dude standing front and center on the back of the package! People knew what they were buying. Give people some credit. No one throws $12 away at Walmart. They don't exactly have high-end shoppers like Tiffany's!

Well, I don't really remember the sticker saying Greatest Hits Re-Recorded with new singer Arnel Pineda. I'd actually have to go to Wal-Mart and see for myself (not making a special trip though...lol!) I do remember seeing a sticker that mentioned something about featuring new lead singer Arnel Pineda, but it didn't exactly read that the greatest hits featured him per se, but mostly it was featuring him on the new songs.

I'm not sure how many casual fans would make the distinction between re-record and re-mastered. You're walking through Wal-Mart, happen to see this different looking Journey "Box set" and noticed that it has new songs and old songs. I really doubt a lot of casual fans inspected it that much. If they're like me, I hate going to Wal-Mart and usually try to grab what I need and get out. If I happen to see an impulse buy from the CD bin, then I'm sure I'm not spending a lot of time examining it. No to mention the fact that it's a two-disc, one DVD package for $12. That's a pretty good deal considering I'm getting the greatest hits along with a DVD and some new songs that I may or may not like. I really think that is the casual fan's mentality. Not that I'm saying the casual fan is dumb, but I'm saying they're not going to put THAT much effort into inspecting the album package since it sells for less than some new CDs from other artists. If it was about $30+, then I'd say most would be looking it over just to make sure it was something they wanted.

[Michigan Girl]

I think the new pinoy fans wanted those hits with the little brown singer!!
They avoided having to hit the back catalog for the DD, which featured a singer they
were uninterested in anyway. Definitely win, win for them!!

[Art Vandelay]

It wasn't the new music that garnered them all of that press and attention. First it was Arnel's rags-to-riches story that got the attention. Then it was showcasing Arnel as the second coming of Steve Perry that allowed them to flex their muscle on tv and on video loops in WalMart - hence the re-recorded GH disc and the live disc of old material. Journey and their management knew this and ran with it. What garnered the attention was Journey's classic legacy and the fact that a struggling cover singer from the other side of the world could keep that classic train running. Their classic songs and legacy are bigger than the band itself, and without any of that being attached to a new project, it's not going to be commercially successful.

The re-records didn't help move the first package at all. None, zip, zilch, nada. The only thing they did was help it go Platinum because it counted as second disc. Greatest Hits has moved 15 million copies in the U.S. and Escape and Frontiers (much of GH) have moved a combined 15 million albums. Combine that with GH Live, The Essential Journey, and you're approaching 32 million. No one needed re-records of the Greatest Hits ... they already had them!

The story was definitely the promotional tool that pushed sales. But people knew it was on sale. Now? No one knows. I asked a few friends that I talked into buying revelation when they asked me about it and not one, with God as my witness, knew Eclipse was even out. This isn't a quality of product issue or what isn't packaged along with it, but, rather, the fact that no one even knows about it. And if you were walking through Walmart on one of the busiest weekends of the year, you still wouldn't know it's out. Most people are reporting that Walmart didn't even put up with the new releases! Trying to attach that old, stale argument that people decided to buy it for re-records is just silly. And untrue.

This all falls on management for an absolutely horrendous job of promoting the album, and of not ensuring that Walmart do their part. It's gonna take a lot to even crack 100K now ... something they did in Revelation's first week.

Oh I agree it has nothing to do with quality of product (music, not packaging). But I disagree, the rerecorded material was a major contribution to the sales of Revelation. It was offered as proof that 'yeah this kid can do what Perry did for us. Here, take a look and a listen!'

[Saint John]

Well, I don't really remember the sticker saying Greatest Hits Re-Recorded with new singer Arnel Pineda. I'd actually have to go to Wal-Mart and see for myself (not making a special trip though...lol!) I do remember seeing a sticker that mentioned something about featuring new lead singer Arnel Pineda, but it didn't exactly read that the greatest hits featured him per se, but mostly it was featuring him on the new songs.

I'm not sure how many casual fans would make the distinction between re-record and re-mastered. You're walking through Wal-Mart, happen to see this different looking Journey "Box set" and noticed that it has new songs and old songs. I really doubt a lot of casual fans inspected it that much. If they're like me, I hate going to Wal-Mart and usually try to grab what I need and get out. If I happen to see an impulse buy from the CD bin, then I'm sure I'm not spending a lot of time examining it. No to mention the fact that it's a two-disc, one DVD package for $12. That's a pretty good deal considering I'm getting the greatest hits along with a DVD and some new songs that I may or may not like. I really think that is the casual fan's mentality. Not that I'm saying the casual fan is dumb, but I'm saying they're not going to put THAT much effort into inspecting the album package since it sells for less than some new CDs from other artists. If it was about $30+, then I'd say most would be looking it over just to make sure it was something they wanted.

Fair/valid points, Greg. 2 things that I think are worth mentioning, though:

First, everyone knows that Revelation sold around 800k in the U.S. and that that was actual packages sold. In other words, 1.6 million according to the RIAA and, thus, Platinum. No one here ever tried to say it sold 1.6 million packages.

Second, I found the CD doing a Google search and the first 4 words are "Brand New Studio Album" on the front sticker and then featuring "Never Walk Away and After All These Years."

[jrny84]

Really, with absolutely no promotion at all #11 on bb and 16,200+ sales, is probably pretty darn good. Most people didnt even know about the album.

[Deb]

The story was definitely the promotional tool that pushed sales. But people knew it was on sale. Now? No one knows. I asked a few friends that I talked into buying revelation when they asked me about it and not one, with God as my witness, knew Eclipse was even out. This isn't a quality of product issue or what isn't packaged along with it, but, rather, the fact that no one even knows about it. And if you were walking through Walmart on one of the busiest weekends of the year, you still wouldn't know it's out. Most people are reporting that Walmart didn't even put up with the new releases! Trying to attach that old, stale argument that people decided to buy it for re-records is just silly. And untrue.

This all falls on management for an absolutely horrendous job of promoting the album, and of not ensuring that Walmart do their part. It's gonna take a lot to even crack 100K now ... something they did in Revelation's first week.

Wow, never thought I'd hear that come out of your mouth.......I have been arguing that point with you for years re: JSS and EM. Thank you, I can shut the book and go home now. I would love to throw your comments "because it is only average" "sales speak, people buy", etc etc, back at ya..........but I won't.

There is some un-marketted (is that a word ) stuff out there that is steller, and on the flip side there is some absolute CRAP that has been marketted the hell out of. Quality and marketability definitely do NOT always go hand in hand.

[Saint John]

I'm talking about a major headliner, Deb, not orchestral narrators and 1 hit wonders.

[Deb]

I'm talking about a major headliner, Deb, not orchestral narrators and 1 hit wonders.

Major headliners? Sorry Dan but Journey is no Bon Jovi or U2 at the moment. And get back to me when they can sellout places like the Budokan twice over on their own.

But I'm not going to get into another pissing match with ya on this, I have nothing against Journey, ya just bring out the worst in me when you slam my faves.......neither of which above comment is correct. Jeff is not TSO's narrator, he is a multi-soloist. And sure MB had one hit that went #1 in 15 countries (which by the way is more than your Journey can say ) but like Journey they also had other hits that didn't hit the top 10 either.

[Saint John]

I'm talking about a major headliner, Deb, not orchestral narrators and 1 hit wonders.

Major headliners? Sorry Dan but Journey is no Bon Jovi or U2 at the moment. And get back to me when they can sellout places like the Budokan twice over on their own.

But I'm not going to get into another pissing match with ya on this, I have nothing against Journey, ya just bring out the worst in me when you slam my faves.......neither of which above comment is correct. Jeff is not TSO's narrator, he is a multi-soloist. And sure MB had one hit that went #1 in 15 countries (which by the way is more than your Journey can say ) but like Journey they also had other hits that didn't hit the top 10 either.

Deb, I've just been busting your milk sacks for years! When are you gonna learn?!?!