Tantra v Butterfly

[Greg]

People hating Tantra just don't have a fuckin clue about music in general...

Bullshit statement!

Both Tantra and Butterfly make me want to puke.

I didn't really appreciate Tantra beyond its lyrics until just recently; Butterfly has no such redeeming qualities for me, but it's certainly not the worst Journey song ever in my book. Competing for that title is 'Baby I'm A Leavin' You' and 'Homemade Love'.

Neither song has any redeeming qualities in my opinion. And I don't get it when people say that a song like Tantra is something you'd hear from Meatloaf of TSO. If I want to hear Meatleaf or TSO, I will put their CD in the player. Otherwise, I listen to Journey for the "Journey" sound.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Otherwise, I listen to Journey for the "Journey" sound.

And that is what exactly? This isn't the first time the band has veered into overblown operatics. "Tantra" is sorta like "Mother, Father", just carried to even further theatrical melodramatic lengths. It's not Steinman by any stretch.

[youkeepmewaiting]

Otherwise, I listen to Journey for the "Journey" sound.

And that is what exactly? This isn't the first time the band has veered into overblown operatics. "Tantra" is sorta like "Mother, Father", just carried to even further theatrical melodramatic lengths. It's not Steinman by any stretch.

Good point.

Journey sound?

People and Place
Open Arms
Edge of a Blade
Frontiers
Still She Cries
Higher Place
Turn Down The World Tonight

That's why I love Journey. Different sounding songs but it's still Journey and you know it's Journey. Just like Eclispe

[The_Noble_Cause]

Otherwise, I listen to Journey for the "Journey" sound.

And that is what exactly? This isn't the first time the band has veered into overblown operatics. "Tantra" is sorta like "Mother, Father", just carried to even further theatrical melodramatic lengths. It's not Steinman by any stretch.

Good point.

Journey sound?

People and Place
Open Arms
Edge of a Blade
Frontiers
Still She Cries
Higher Place
Turn Down The World Tonight

That's why I love Journey. Different sounding songs but it's still Journey and you know it's Journey. Just like Eclispe

Those looking for the "Journey Sound" should love Revelation. Every song on that album harkens back to a previous era. Eclipse, like Frontiers, isn't afraid to experiment and tinker with the fomula.

[Greg]

Otherwise, I listen to Journey for the "Journey" sound.

And that is what exactly? This isn't the first time the band has veered into overblown operatics. "Tantra" is sorta like "Mother, Father", just carried to even further theatrical melodramatic lengths. It's not Steinman by any stretch.

Please. Tantra is nowhere near the song that Mother, Father is. Period. No comparisons whatsoever. While M/F isn't the prototypical Journey song about love and romance, it still is very much Journey. In my humble opinion, Tantra is garbage. If you think it's great, wonderful. More power to you and anyone else who thinks it's great, but I think it blows. I suppose if I agreed with the lyrical content, I would appreciate it more, but as stated previously on this board, I share no connection with this song whatsoever. And I don't believe it's a song that most will appreciate as time goes by. Much like a fair share of people where who thought Revelation was the second coming of Escape but have backed off those thoughts a couple of years later, I believe the same will happen with Tantra.

[Gideon]

Baby I'm Leavin You is such a fun song. People take it too serisouly, it was a secret track for a reason

Agreed. I don't even really consider it a song, but more or less, just the guys having fun. I kind of put this song on the same shelf as Love For Sale from Bon Jovi.

Yeah, I don't make excuses for it. It was a track, it was a song constructed by the band, and it's horrible, and guilty of defying Journey's formula far more than either "Tantra" or "Butterfly."

[Gideon]

While M/F isn't the prototypical Journey song about love and romance, it still is very much Journey.

TNC wasn't arguing "Mother, Father" was better, but asking you to articulate what it means by "being Journey." Style-wise, they're very similar. Lyrically, obviously not.

[conversationpc]

Baby I'm Leavin You is such a fun song. People take it too serisouly, it was a secret track for a reason

Agreed. I don't even really consider it a song, but more or less, just the guys having fun. I kind of put this song on the same shelf as Love For Sale from Bon Jovi.

I've made that point here on more than one occasion. Almost posted it here again but thought instead "Nah, no one's going to listen anyway."

[Blueskies]

Otherwise, I listen to Journey for the "Journey" sound.

And that is what exactly? This isn't the first time the band has veered into overblown operatics. "Tantra" is sorta like "Mother, Father", just carried to even further theatrical melodramatic lengths. It's not Steinman by any stretch.

Please. Tantra is nowhere near the song that Mother, Father is. Period. No comparisons whatsoever. While M/F isn't the prototypical Journey song about love and romance, it still is very much Journey. In my humble opinion, Tantra is garbage. If you think it's great, wonderful. More power to you and anyone else who thinks it's great, but I think it blows. I suppose if I agreed with the lyrical content, I would appreciate it more, but as stated previously on this board, I share no connection with this song whatsoever. And I don't believe it's a song that most will appreciate as time goes by. Much like a fair share of people where who thought Revelation was the second coming of Escape but have backed off those thoughts a couple of years later, I believe the same will happen with Tantra.

If you think Tantra is far removed from anything Journey has done before, then you haven't listened to enough Journey music. If you aren't hearing it in Mother, Father then try this one....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umbWzGnt3WY

If you still don't hear it and get it then you might want to check out an ear doctor instead.

[Gideon]

Good call on WoM.

[Blueskies]

Good call on WoM.

Good to see you back here, Gideon.

[Blueskies]

People hating Tantra just don't have a fuckin clue about music in general...

Bullshit statement!

Both Tantra and Butterfly make me want to puke.

I didn't really appreciate Tantra beyond its lyrics until just recently; Butterfly has no such redeeming qualities for me, but it's certainly not the worst Journey song ever in my book. Competing for that title is 'Baby I'm A Leavin' You' and 'Homemade Love'.

Neither song has any redeeming qualities in my opinion. And I don't get it when people say that a song like Tantra is something you'd hear from Meatloaf of TSO. If I want to hear Meatleaf or TSO, I will put their CD in the player. Otherwise, I listen to Journey for the "Journey" sound.

It can be likened to TSO but Journey did the sound and style long before TSO was even thought of. Like Winds of March in my previous post to you, and others before ROR. How about their Dream After Dream work? Eclipse has elements of almost everything Journey has done since inception, musically. That along with the lyrical content is why I love it.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Please. Tantra is nowhere near the song that Mother, Father is. Period. No comparisons whatsoever. While M/F isn't the prototypical Journey song about love and romance, it still is very much Journey. In my humble opinion, Tantra is garbage.

All you do is sling around the term "Journey Sound" and apply it to songs you like and songs you don't like, without ever having to back-up your opinion. As others have noted, "Tantra" is very much in keeping with past Journey ballads; real ballads, ballads with teeth - like "Winds of March" or "Mother, Father." I'd rather have Journey attempt to go highbrow and fail, then sleepwalk thru any more sugary Diane Warren-esque garbage.

[Argus]

Please. Tantra is nowhere near the song that Mother, Father is. Period. No comparisons whatsoever. While M/F isn't the prototypical Journey song about love and romance, it still is very much Journey. In my humble opinion, Tantra is garbage.

All you do is sling around the term "Journey Sound" and apply it to songs you like and songs you don't like, without ever having to back-up your opinion. As others have noted, "Tantra" is very much in keeping with past Journey ballads; real ballads, ballads with teeth - like "Winds of March" or "Mother, Father." I'd rather have Journey attempt to go highbrow and fail, then sleepwalk thru any more sugary Diane Warren-esque garbage.

Geez, TNC.. give the Warren-bashing a rest or be doomed to hearing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DJNzmNB48no in your dreams

[Greg]

If you think Tantra is far removed from anything Journey has done before, then you haven't listened to enough Journey music. If you aren't hearing it in Mother, Father then try this one....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umbWzGnt3WY

If you still don't hear it and get it then you might want to check out an ear doctor instead.

I've listened to every Journey song ever recorded. When I say the "Journey sound" I'm talking about the sound which put them on the map. The dirty dozen. It is not uncommon for a band to experiment with their sound until they get the right formula that fits them as a band. Once they do, they have established their "legacy sound". Geez...something Journey was trying to go back to when they dumped Soto.

For instance, go back and listen to Nickelback's albums from the 90's. Completely different sound from what they were made famous with.

[Greg]

Please. Tantra is nowhere near the song that Mother, Father is. Period. No comparisons whatsoever. While M/F isn't the prototypical Journey song about love and romance, it still is very much Journey. In my humble opinion, Tantra is garbage.

All you do is sling around the term "Journey Sound" and apply it to songs you like and songs you don't like, without ever having to back-up your opinion. As others have noted, "Tantra" is very much in keeping with past Journey ballads; real ballads, ballads with teeth - like "Winds of March" or "Mother, Father." I'd rather have Journey attempt to go highbrow and fail, then sleepwalk thru any more sugary Diane Warren-esque garbage.

And all you do is sit there and start arguments with anybody who isn't in line completely with your opinions. If you can't handle a difference of opinion, go back to your play pin and come back when you're mature enough to talk to the adults.

I didn't "back up" my opinion yesterday because I was not in front of my computer. Geez..you think you're that important that I'm going to make a point to drop everything and answer you when you think I need to? It's not on your time bitch!

How in the world is Tantra a "real ballad"? For Pete's sake, it sounds like something from Beauty and the Beast. I find that song hideous. Winds of March, I do like, but that's in large part due to Steve Perry being an artist with his voice and painting an awesome melody rather than a singer who's a great singer, but no artist like Perry. In this instance, if Steve Perry wasn't singing on Winds of March, the song would have been blah. Mother, Father has the Journey sound. Huge harmonies, Steve Smith's signature drumming, classic Neal Schon solos. That song flows beautifully. There is nothing forced in Mother, Father. In my opinion, that song is a masterpiece. Go back and listen to each ingredient. You'll see what I mean. Tantra is missing a lot without the two Steves.

As I said before, if you guys love Tantra, fantastic. I think it's ignorant to bash those who don't like it. We all have difference in tastes, even if we all like the same type of music. At least we all should be allowed to without prejudice.

[NoMoreTails]

It seems that many of the supposed hard core fans here have alot in common with greatest hits-only casual fan. Eclipse certainly covers new ground, yet I don't hear anything that doesn't sound like Journey.

[The_Noble_Cause]

When I say the "Journey sound" I'm talking about the sound which put them on the map. The dirty dozen.

The "dirty dozen" is compiled from numerous Journey cds, over different lineups, while the band's sound was still evolving. The Rolie lineup which produced LTS and WITS had very little in common with the pop hitmakers that Cain turned the band into. Your expectations are unreal.

[Greg]

It seems that many of the supposed hard core fans here have alot in common with greatest hits-only casual fan. Eclipse certainly covers new ground, yet I don't hear anything that doesn't sound like Journey.

Tantra is the only song from Eclipse that I find repulsive. I think if you go back and read my review, you'd find that I like several things about Eclipse. And really, why is it that in order to be a hardcore fan of a band, you must blindly love everything they put out even if it doesn't stand up to standards? So, if I don't have a hard-on to everything Eclipse, I'm just a casual fan? Yet, you guys can bash ROR, TBF, Arrival, or even Generations, and that's perfectly OK? That's quite a double standard. The truth is, I'm honest about what I find that's likeable and will stand the test of time musically and what will not. You don't have to worship every single note and every song your favorite artist gives you to be considered a big fan. Honestly, if I was an artist, I would want my fans to be honest with me as to the musical direction I'm going. If they like it, say so, if they don't, then don't pretend like you think it's the greatest thing ever invented when it's not going to sell. Believe me, the guys from Journey want their new music to be successful. You honestly think they're working on this stuff just to have something to do? Please...it costs them money and time to make music. They want a return on their investment.

[The_Noble_Cause]

And all you do is sit there and start arguments with anybody who isn't in line completely with your opinions. If you can't handle a difference of opinion, go back to your play pin and come back when you're mature enough to talk to the adults.

You're an agenda-wielding troll. All you do is piss, moan, and wail about the "Journey sound" (whatever the fuck that means) and seemingly expect every album to be twelve tracks of DSB part II.

I didn't "back up" my opinion yesterday because I was not in front of my computer. Geez..you think you're that important that I'm going to make a point to drop everything and answer you when you think I need to? It's not on your time bitch!

If you can't handle being asked to back-up an opinion, then don't bother expressing it. Is that too much to ask? I guess it’s pretty hard to go back and invent reasons for hating something, when you already made up your mind.

How in the world is Tantra a "real ballad"?

Because it deviates from the blueprint of "boy meets girl" garbage, which you apparently just love.

For Pete's sake, it sounds like something from Beauty and the Beast. I find that song hideous.

Then go listen to Judas Priest. In the words of Neal, Open Arms “sounded Mary Poppins.” Journey has always had elements of this. Of course, in your rose –colored revisionist view, Journey has never been as cheesy as a brie factory until Eclipse came out.

Winds of March, I do like, but that's in large part due to Steve Perry being an artist with his voice and painting an awesome melody rather than a singer who's a great singer, but no artist like Perry. In this instance, if Steve Perry wasn't singing on Winds of March, the song would have been blah. Mother, Father has the Journey sound. Huge harmonies, Steve Smith's signature drumming, classic Neal Schon solos. That song flows beautifully. There is nothing forced in Mother, Father. In my opinion, that song is a masterpiece. Go back and listen to each ingredient. You'll see what I mean. Tantra is missing a lot without the two Steves.

All of the elements you just rattled off about MF, are there in spades on Tantra.

As I said before, if you guys love Tantra, fantastic. I think it's ignorant to bash those who don't like it. We all have difference in tastes, even if we all like the same type of music. At least we all should be allowed to without prejudice.

There is nothing prejudiced about pointing out the contradictions and inconsistencies in your posts. Climb off the cross.

[The_Noble_Cause]

You honestly think they're working on this stuff just to have something to do?

Yes. Since Red 13, it's been fairly obvious that Neal writes new stuff just so he isn't completely bored on tour.

[Greg]

You're an agenda-wielding troll. All you do is piss, moan, and wail about the "Journey sound" (whatever the fuck that means) and seemingly expect every album to be twelve tracks of DSB part II.

And you are an idiot who obviously does not pay attention to my posts unless of course it's something you want to argue with. It's funny how people are given the troll tag if they're not blindly following the crowd. What's next? You gonna have everybody wearing Nikes and waiting for the spaceships?

If you can't handle being asked to back-up an opinion, then don't bother expressing it. Is that too much to ask? I guess it’s pretty hard to go back and invent reasons for hating something, when you already made up your mind.

I will express my opinions whenever and how ever the fuck I want to express them. If you can't handle that, get the fuck out of here.

Because it deviates from the blueprint of "boy meets girl" garbage, which you apparently just love.

I never stated that's what I love nor have I ever stated that is the only thing Journey should ever write about. If I have, please go back and find those posts. And it's funny that you'd call yourself a fan of the band and then call the music they are mostly known for garbage. To me, that's quite a contradiction.

Then go listen to Judas Priest. In the words of Neal, Open Arms “sounded Mary Poppins.” Journey has always had elements of this. Of course, in your rose –colored revisionist view, Journey has never been as cheesy as a brie factory until Eclipse came out.

I will listen to whatever the fuck I want to listen to. Of course Journey has been considered "cheesy" to the Rolling Stones disciples who hate Journey. But, considering 80's music as a whole, I don't see them any cheesier than anything else that was played on the radio in those days. Yes, the Separate Ways video was cheesy, but the song wasn't. I thought Open Arms was sappy, but never considered it "cheesy". If you do, then good for you and go fuck yourself.

All of the elements you just rattled off about MF, are there in spades on Tantra.

What harmonies in Tantra? I don't hear any vocal harmonies in Tantra like I do in M,F. You're just making that up. As much as I like Deen, probably more as a vocalist, he is light years behind Steve Smith as a drummer.

There is nothing prejudiced about pointing out the contradictions and inconsistencies in your posts. Climb off the cross.

And you can't handle it when someone is doing that with you. If you can't take it, don't be dishing it out.

[Gideon]

Mother, Father has the Journey sound. Huge harmonies, Steve Smith's signature drumming, classic Neal Schon solos. That song flows beautifully.

I understand, to an extent, where you're coming from: How one can be faced with two similar sounding songs and like one over the other. But the ingredients you mention are present in "Tantra."

I'll be the first to point out that (with exception) Steve Smith never floored me in Journey as a badass drummer until Trial By Fire, so I don't look at his involvement in "Mother, Father" to be anything worthwhile until close to the end. The solos, huge harmonies, and powerful tenor voice are all there.

And while I also agree with you that while Arnel is a stupendous singer, his talents as an artist are somewhat lacking. But Perry's name has been tacked to some pretty hokey, unremarkable shit in its day and I think what TNC is trying to say is that it seems you'll make excuses for Perry-era travesties (songs that is, not decisions) while hurling the "Journey sound" phrase against post-Perry songs you don't like.

Not that I agree, just trying to help the flow of communication.

[NoMoreTails]

It seems that many of the supposed hard core fans here have alot in common with greatest hits-only casual fan. Eclipse certainly covers new ground, yet I don't hear anything that doesn't sound like Journey.

Tantra is the only song from Eclipse that I find repulsive. I think if you go back and read my review, you'd find that I like several things about Eclipse. And really, why is it that in order to be a hardcore fan of a band, you must blindly love everything they put out even if it doesn't stand up to standards? So, if I don't have a hard-on to everything Eclipse, I'm just a casual fan? Yet, you guys can bash ROR, TBF, Arrival, or even Generations, and that's perfectly OK? That's quite a double standard. The truth is, I'm honest about what I find that's likeable and will stand the test of time musically and what will not. You don't have to worship every single note and every song your favorite artist gives you to be considered a big fan. Honestly, if I was an artist, I would want my fans to be honest with me as to the musical direction I'm going. If they like it, say so, if they don't, then don't pretend like you think it's the greatest thing ever invented when it's not going to sell. Believe me, the guys from Journey want their new music to be successful. You honestly think they're working on this stuff just to have something to do? Please...it costs them money and time to make music. They want a return on their investment.

I wasn't commenting on you specifically, though the impluse to post was sparked by your dirty dozen reference a couple of posts back. In addition to those that just can't get over the fact that Perry has been replaced, a lot of the criticism of Eclipse on this board has come across to me as though the writers expect only the syrupy ballands or the feel good mid tempo singles. This band has has always had more depth to them than that, on most every album. Except for ROR iwhich s really the only one I've ever really bashed.
I think their obligation should be to pursue creating the music they feel and have some artistic integrity rather than trying to play to the greatest hits only crowd's expectations....they have to do that on tour anyway. That's where the money is made these days rather than music sales.

[Greg]

Mother, Father has the Journey sound. Huge harmonies, Steve Smith's signature drumming, classic Neal Schon solos. That song flows beautifully.

I understand, to an extent, where you're coming from: How one can be faced with two similar sounding songs and like one over the other. But the ingredients you mention are present in "Tantra."

I'll be the first to point out that (with exception) Steve Smith never floored me in Journey as a badass drummer until Trial By Fire, so I don't look at his involvement in "Mother, Father" to be anything worthwhile until close to the end. The solos, huge harmonies, and powerful tenor voice are all there.

And while I also agree with you that while Arnel is a stupendous singer, his talents as an artist are somewhat lacking. But Perry's name has been tacked to some pretty hokey, unremarkable shit in its day and I think what TNC is trying to say is that it seems you'll make excuses for Perry-era travesties (songs that is, not decisions) while hurling the "Journey sound" phrase against post-Perry songs you don't like.

Not that I agree, just trying to help the flow of communication.

And the problem is, that people forget that I was a huge follower of the band as much Post-Perry as I was during Perry's years. I found plenty from Arrival being as much "Journey" as their previous stuff. I loved Steve Augeri in Journey and think he got used and abused, but that's my personal opinion. We will just have to agree to disagree about Tantra. Incidentally, I went back and listened to that song a few times again yesterday, and I listened to Mother, Father as well. While I'd admit that the intent to branch out is there in both songs, I don't really see anything remotely the same about those songs. Maybe others do hear those similarities and that's fine if they do. I really don't see the need of throwing out the troll badge just because I don't. Again, I thought the musical direction of Eclipse as a whole was excellent. Heck, you guys can go back and read my reviews for yourself and see that. I don't like the lyrical direction and just can't seem to connect to Arnel Pineda like I could with the Steves, but Tantra is, in my opinion, the worst song on Eclipse.

[Gideon]

Fair enough, preference is preference. For example, not only do I like M/F, but I like Deen's version even better.


edit: Whatever may be said about your taste in music, it must be said that your taste in women is impeccable. Yvonne is damn sexy.

[Greg]

I wasn't commenting on you specifically, though the impluse to post was sparked by your dirty dozen reference a couple of posts back. In addition to those that just can't get over the fact that Perry has been replaced, a lot of the criticism of Eclipse on this board has come across to me as though the writers expect only the syrupy ballands or the feel good mid tempo singles. This band has has always had more depth to them than that, on most every album. Except for ROR iwhich s really the only one I've ever really bashed.
I think their obligation should be to pursue creating the music they feel and have some artistic integrity rather than trying to play to the greatest hits only crowd's expectations....they have to do that on tour anyway. That's where the money is made these days rather than music sales.

Like I said before, people here don't realize or seem to have forgotten that I was as huge fan of Journey Post-Perry as I was when Perry was still in the band. It's quite easy for folks nowadays to assume that if one is not hardcore for the present lineup, then it must mean that they are stuck in the past that will never come back. Not the case with me.

And also, I am NOT one of those fans who only want the syrupy ballads. Hell no! When Journey named JSS as the new lead singer, I was excited about a new direction of Journey; one being hopefully of a harder rockin' band that would fit Jeff's voice better. But, my tastes with Journey soured after they had pretty much screwed him over. Then they wanted the legacy sound again. Fine, but now they decided to go back to that direction that I was excited for when Jeff was in the band. Except this time, I just didn't sound right for me with Arnel as what I thought it could have sounded with Jeff. While Arnel has the tone and the tenor that is associated with Perry, I think Jeff had those nuances in his voice that would have fit a record like Eclipse better. Just my opinion though. People will agree and that's perfectly fine with me.

But as I stated before, people are very sensitive about any criticism of this line-up. And, if one happens to have the balls to come out and say "Hey, I don't like this at all" then they're labeled a troll or someone says some smartass comment about they don't understand music in general. That is a bunch of crap. If anything, I'm probably more critical of the band because I know they have the potential of writing many great albums until the day they die. I think they're a better band than that.

[conversationpc]

One more thing I realize that I hate about "Tantra" as I sit here listening to it is Neal's tendency to over-use his trem, making that "woo! woo!" police siren-type sound too often. That's one thing he's done over the last ten years or so that I really don't like at all.

[Greg]

Fair enough, preference is preference. For example, not only do I like M/F, but I like Deen's version even better.


edit: Whatever may be said about your taste in music, it must be said that your taste in women is impeccable. Yvonne is damn sexy.

Hell yes!!! She's sexy!

I have to admit....Deen does Mother, Father justice!

[Gideon]

"woo! woo!"

This is all that I saw and it made me chuckle.