Some Perspective on Perry's Voce & Relationship W/The Ba

[tater1977]

Wasn't Herbie SP's personal manager during this time also?

[Michael Leigh]

What an ABSOLUTELY AWESOME, discussion all!!
Best I've seen in quite sometime.Keep it going.

I TRULY appreciate your perspective on everything J!
Especially in light of all that you've been through in the last year.
I also think it helps, and gives you some cred, simply for the fact that you
were part of the machine for a moment, and can actually bring some substance
to the discussion. I hope that all makes sense. I've been up all night, and I'm a bit disoriented! HAHAHA!!
I DO agree 100% on everything you've said, my friend!

[Michael Leigh]

Wasn't Herbie SP's personal manager during this time also?

You're right tater. HH was SP's manager up through ROR, INCLUDING during the Street Talk period.

[Ehwmatt]

Jeremey:

This is all great stuff from a singing standpoint. But frankly, upon further research, you lost me at your general conclusion, which is that Perry performed on the schedule he did with Journey largely because of external pressures (whatever those pressures were and wherever they came from). Why? Because it appears he did a similar schedule nearly 12 years later on the FTLOSM tour. See http://steveperryfanclub.homestead.com/ ... edule.html

In the same 3 month time as the brutal Frontiers tour, there are several 3-in-a-rows (Oct 28-30; Dec 16-18; Jan 25-28 ), a 4-in-a-row (Nov 22-25), and even a stunning 5-in-a-row (Nov. 14-18 ).

Now, I haven't looked back at the Frontiers leg. I do understand there are a few 2 or 3-day breaks on this FTLOSM tour that may or may not have been built into the Frontiers schedule. But I've always heard from singers that anything more than 2 nights in a row really pushes their voices and causes real problems. So really, a few day break or not, the damage is already done when you push yourself that many nights in a row. Burton Cummings blogged at length about this "3-in-a-row phenomenon" a few years ago. Assuming he had this extensive history of "blowing vocal chords" out (according to your band source), it would seem very foolish for either him or his promoter/booking agent to book several 3-in-a-row stints, a 4-in-a-row stint, and a 5-in-a-row stint all in the very narrow 3~ month timeframe nearly 12 YEARS AFTER the alleged initial blowout.

So, while I find the rumors of him blowing his voice out (whatever that actually means medically) very credible (just listen to him after that), I don't find the notion that he did so out of pure outside pressure from the band, record label, Herbie etc. credible. Perry to some extent had to have willingly capitulated to whatever demands the road life was placing on him at that point.

[FamilyMan]

A very insightful and informative post, Jeremey. Thanks for sharing it. But what it does not explain or address is the unceremonious firing of Smitty and Ross during the making of ROR, which only makes SP look incredibly crass and self-absorbed. If perhaps your theory is correct, and his voice was already wrecked by ROR, then are we to conclude that he tried to compensate for it by blaming his fellow bandmates for a less than stellar sound? regardless, that to me, was Journey's "fractured stone" moment.

[Gideon]

So, while I find the rumors of him blowing his voice out (whatever that actually means medically) very credible (just listen to him after that), I don't find the notion that he did so out of pure outside pressure from the band, record label, Herbie etc. credible. Perry to some extent had to have willingly capitulated to whatever demands the road life was placing on him at that point.

Well said. This is where I find myself.

[tater1977]

When Smitty & Ross were dismissed...here's what I guess I'm missing..

If Journey was a 6 man - band (HH included)...& everyone had an equal vote...
in band decisions...& Schon , Cain ..including HH..cowdowned to & went along
with Perry... does that not make them as guilty as getting rid of Smitty & Ross?

[brywool]

I originally was going to post this in the Journey YouTube concert thread, but it was ridiculously long and wanted to just post it to its own thread. So in context of Brywool and Ehwmatt discussing Perry's voice and the change it took over the years, here's some thoughts on that: etc.

Jeremey, that's why I was asking about the touring schedule, etc. Basically, the proximity of the shows just ran him into the ground. So the talk of "Oh, I just roughed up my voice to get a different texture" was complete BS. What he should've said was "Well, Journey had made deals for shows that we couldn't get out of. I had to perform or lots of people wouldn't get paid. Healthy or not, I had to go out there". What I'm surprised about is that it seems to be a permanent condition- or rather- after the time off after the 83 tour that it didn't heal. However, I guess if you look at the chain of events, I think from the Frontiers tour he went straight in and did Street Talk, then right after that into working on ROR and that tour. The guy didn't take a lot of time off to heal. No wonder he was "Toast" by 87. But from 87 to 94 is a long time to rest the voice. You'd think that during that time, he'd have got his voice back-unless the damage was permanent. It could be that because of the damage to his voice, he changed the way that he had to sing and that he couldn't find his way back. If your chords are damaged, then having that smooth Infinity-era voice isn't going to happen and so you're going to have to change your vocal approach to keep working. Yeah, it had to be extremely difficult for him both mentally and physical. Once you start losing it and you're expected to deliver every night.... ugh.

Regarding Augeri- he ALWAYS had problems with the Journey gig. A mutual voice teacher told me as much. It's a difficult gig, probably THE most difficult gig. Again, the band toured while Augeri was experiencing vocal issues. It's a lot of pressure for sure. That's why I was sympathetic to the whole Tapegate thing. I can totally see how that could happen and I don't fault Augeri for it whatsoever. It's a lot of pressure. You've got your band (crew, etc.) depending on you to go out there and work. Yup, it sucks to be the guy that needs to rest his "instrument" while the others can go out and just play all night, every night.

With Pineda- I think one thing that will help him is that he was a club singer and put in LONG HOURS in those clubs. I've never really heard of Perry or Augeri slogging it out in the clubs for years. That may have occurred, just saying I've never heard of that. I know Perry had a few bands before Journey, but not sure how much they played the clubs. With Arnel, club gigs are long in the US and I believe they are longer in the Asian countries where he worked. That's how he made his living. So if you think about it- 4-5 hours singing in a club (remember, he was singing Journey, Heart(?!?!?), and a lot of high stuff) for long periods. Journey shows are like an hour and a half maybe 2. It's got to be easier for him than singing in a club for 5 hours a night 5 days a week. I don't know if Perry or Augeri had that past experience. Arnel has a good chance of making it through as long as the band keeps his voice in mind. It sounds like they've learned that they need to keep him healthy (finally).

But I don't blame Journey for Perry's voice problems entirely. Think of the times. SP was really the FIRST singer like THAT in Rock. Nobody had done those kind of tours, with that kind of range. It was new territory. At the time, the dark side of steroid use was probably not as well known as it is today. I'm sure he figured he'd be okay after a period of downtime- but that never happened.

I have four shows this weekend. This thread is freaking me out.

[Gideon]

When Smitty & Ross were dismissed...here's what I guess I'm missing..

If Journey was a 6 man - band (HH included)...& everyone had an equal vote...
in band decisions...& Schon , Cain ..including HH..cowdowned to & went along
with Perry... does that not make them as guilty as getting rid of Smitty & Ross?

It was on record that Schon and Cain gave their consent to fire Ross and Smith, but Perry was (unofficially as lead singer and officially as producer) calling the shots and it was his idea. If they had an equal vote, then it wouldn't have happened. Perry himself takes responsibility for the decision in BTM: "I wouldn't have done it, it seemed like a good idea at the time." The buck stopped there.

[tater1977]

When Smitty & Ross were dismissed...here's what I guess I'm missing..

If Journey was a 6 man - band (HH included)...& everyone had an equal vote...
in band decisions...& Schon , Cain ..including HH..cowdowned to & went along
with Perry... does that not make them as guilty as getting rid of Smitty & Ross?

It was on record that Schon and Cain gave their consent to fire Ross and Smith, but Perry was (unofficially as lead singer and officially as producer) calling the shots and it was his idea. If they had an equal vote, then it wouldn't have happened. Perry himself takes responsibility for the decision in BTM: "I wouldn't have done it, it seemed like a good idea at the time." The buck stopped there.

Yea I've watched BTM & heard Perry say that...but you can't tell me that with HH saying in the past...6 man band , like a family, equal vote - equal say...something went wrong somewhere..so they were all to blame "technically"...

[Gideon]

When Smitty & Ross were dismissed...here's what I guess I'm missing..

If Journey was a 6 man - band (HH included)...& everyone had an equal vote...
in band decisions...& Schon , Cain ..including HH..cowdowned to & went along
with Perry... does that not make them as guilty as getting rid of Smitty & Ross?

It was on record that Schon and Cain gave their consent to fire Ross and Smith, but Perry was (unofficially as lead singer and officially as producer) calling the shots and it was his idea. If they had an equal vote, then it wouldn't have happened. Perry himself takes responsibility for the decision in BTM: "I wouldn't have done it, it seemed like a good idea at the time." The buck stopped there.

Yea I've watched BTM & heard Perry say that...but you can't tell me that with HH saying in the past...6 man band , like a family, equal vote - equal say...something went wrong somewhere..so they were all to blame "technically"...

No doubt that Schon and Cain were culpable to an extent, prioritizing money over comradarie, but if you watch BTM (the Director's cut), they emphasize the fact that Perry began to disrupt the family dynamic early on, long before the ROR fiasco.

It's the reason why textbooks don't ultimately pin the blame on the Holocaust on Himmler and Goebbels, even though they were willing conspirators. It ultimately begins with an instigator, who was in this case Perry, which is why he receives the lion's share of the blame.

[Art Vandelay]

Fantastic read, Jeremy. Thank you for taking the time to break things down and sharing your perspective.
And keep in mind, the band was also pressured into doing a second leg stadium tour for Escape in '82. It is well documented that Perry was against this, and only gave in when Bill Graham himself came to the band on bended knee, begging for them to do so. If Perry couldn't get out of a second leg tour, there was no way he was gonna be able to cut dates for the Frontiers tour...especially when they were voted #1 rock band in America.

[Michigan Girl]

Excellent post, Jeremey and even more respected because it comes
from someone who's worn the Nike's, so to speak . People have got to quit hanging out
in Dallas, it kills.

And for those of you who are so pissed because you believe SP is dangling the proverbial
carrot in your face ...why? You don't believe he's ever going to perform again anyway.
Steveo, it's been documented here that you never saw him perform w/Journey, does
it piss you off that you missed that opportunity?

[tater1977]

When Smitty & Ross were dismissed...here's what I guess I'm missing..

If Journey was a 6 man - band (HH included)...& everyone had an equal vote...
in band decisions...& Schon , Cain ..including HH..cowdowned to & went along
with Perry... does that not make them as guilty as getting rid of Smitty & Ross?

It was on record that Schon and Cain gave their consent to fire Ross and Smith, but Perry was (unofficially as lead singer and officially as producer) calling the shots and it was his idea. If they had an equal vote, then it wouldn't have happened. Perry himself takes responsibility for the decision in BTM: "I wouldn't have done it, it seemed like a good idea at the time." The buck stopped there.

Yea I've watched BTM & heard Perry say that...but you can't tell me that with HH saying in the past...6 man band , like a family, equal vote - equal say...something went wrong somewhere..so they were all to blame "technically"...

No doubt that Schon and Cain were culpable to an extent, prioritizing money over comradarie, but if you watch BTM (the Director's cut), they emphasize the fact that Perry began to disrupt the family dynamic early on, long before the ROR fiasco.

It's the reason why textbooks don't ultimately pin the blame on the Holocaust on Himmler and Goebbels, even though they were willing conspirators. It ultimately begins with an instigator, who was in this case Perry, which is why he receives the lion's share of the blame.

I've watched both versions of BTM...Yea SP says_(paraphrasing here)... if he had to do it differently he would ....but if Schon & Cain & HH would have put their feet down ..
back then...would history be different?

Schon, Cain & HH all share the blame too IMO...not just blaming it all on 1 person or to
different degrees of blame...They were all responsible...
But since history's aready been written...all the "what ifs" won't change it...

[Michigan Girl]

Jeremey:

This is all great stuff from a singing standpoint. But frankly, upon further research, you lost me at your general conclusion, which is that Perry performed on the schedule he did with Journey largely because of external pressures (whatever those pressures were and wherever they came from). Why? Because it appears he did a similar schedule nearly 12 years later on the FTLOSM tour. See http://steveperryfanclub.homestead.com/ ... edule.html

In the same 3 month time as the brutal Frontiers tour, there are several 3-in-a-rows (Oct 28-30; Dec 16-18; Jan 25-28 ), a 4-in-a-row (Nov 22-25), and even a stunning 5-in-a-row (Nov. 14-18 ).

Now, I haven't looked back at the Frontiers leg. I do understand there are a few 2 or 3-day breaks on this FTLOSM tour that may or may not have been built into the Frontiers schedule. But I've always heard from singers that anything more than 2 nights in a row really pushes their voices and causes real problems. So really, a few day break or not, the damage is already done when you push yourself that many nights in a row. Burton Cummings blogged at length about this "3-in-a-row phenomenon" a few years ago. Assuming he had this extensive history of "blowing vocal chords" out (according to your band source), it would seem very foolish for either him or his promoter/booking agent to book several 3-in-a-row stints, a 4-in-a-row stint, and a 5-in-a-row stint all in the very narrow 3~ month timeframe nearly 12 YEARS AFTER the alleged initial blowout.

So, while I find the rumors of him blowing his voice out (whatever that actually means medically) very credible (just listen to him after that), I don't find the notion that he did so out of pure outside pressure from the band, record label, Herbie etc. credible. Perry to some extent had to have willingly capitulated to whatever demands the road life was placing on him at that point.

I agree here, Matty. I believe he pushed himself, too. Why?!? not a clue, but he seemed to have that time is money mentality ...
get as much in as possible?!?

[Jeremey]

Jeremey:

This is all great stuff from a singing standpoint. But frankly, upon further research, you lost me at your general conclusion, which is that Perry performed on the schedule he did with Journey largely because of external pressures (whatever those pressures were and wherever they came from). Why? Because it appears he did a similar schedule nearly 12 years later on the FTLOSM tour. See http://steveperryfanclub.homestead.com/ ... edule.html

In the same 3 month time as the brutal Frontiers tour, there are several 3-in-a-rows (Oct 28-30; Dec 16-18; Jan 25-28 ), a 4-in-a-row (Nov 22-25), and even a stunning 5-in-a-row (Nov. 14-18 ).

Now, I haven't looked back at the Frontiers leg. I do understand there are a few 2 or 3-day breaks on this FTLOSM tour that may or may not have been built into the Frontiers schedule. But I've always heard from singers that anything more than 2 nights in a row really pushes their voices and causes real problems. So really, a few day break or not, the damage is already done when you push yourself that many nights in a row. Burton Cummings blogged at length about this "3-in-a-row phenomenon" a few years ago. Assuming he had this extensive history of "blowing vocal chords" out (according to your band source), it would seem very foolish for either him or his promoter/booking agent to book several 3-in-a-row stints, a 4-in-a-row stint, and a 5-in-a-row stint all in the very narrow 3~ month timeframe nearly 12 YEARS AFTER the alleged initial blowout.

So, while I find the rumors of him blowing his voice out (whatever that actually means medically) very credible (just listen to him after that), I don't find the notion that he did so out of pure outside pressure from the band, record label, Herbie etc. credible. Perry to some extent had to have willingly capitulated to whatever demands the road life was placing on him at that point.

Fair enough Matt, and I would counter that the FTLSOM tour is impossible to compare with the Frontiers tour of 1983. The band at the time was the biggest band in the world, and was playing stadiums multiple nights to hundreds of thousands of people. For example, in the 3 weeks between June 18th to the final date of the Dallas shows (July 10th), the band had two days off. While I see several 3 night runs on the 1994 tour I really see nothing at all close to the madness that was the Frontiers tour. Although I can't understand why they would have booked so many shows that November. Really, it should be fairly practical to expect that a band or singer can perform three shows in a row regularly. When you are performing 3 nights in a row with one day off for 5 months at a time - while suffering from a voice injury - you start running into problems.

But more importantly, I want to stress that my original post was in order to speculate with some degree of personal experience what may have damaged Perry's voice in the long term, and that was specifically having to perform while injured and not taking time off to heal...That's where the permanent damage to Perry's voice most likely took place. A lot of this discussion is ancillary to my original intent, but good conversation nonetheless.

As for Perry's voice change for the recording of Frontiers - this is much more speculative but I can observe that Perry did change his overall singing style for the recording of Frontiers versus the material leading up to that. What's most likely to have happened is that with the aging that takes place from someone in their mid twenties to their mid thirties, and the overall wear that the Escape tour exacted, he could have possibly come off the road from Escape and realized his voice wasn't hitting those clear and pristine vocals of his early material, and realized he was going to have to change what he did in the studio in order to pull it off life, thus engineering a different vocal sound - Possibly through bad technique. So while it may not have been an intentional effort to "rough up" or damage his voice for the singing of Frontiers, he very well could have realized he had come to a crossroads at his age and voice and decided it wasn't going to make sense to continue doing those ridiculous studio antics.

[Don]

Jeremey:

This is all great stuff from a singing standpoint. But frankly, upon further research, you lost me at your general conclusion, which is that Perry performed on the schedule he did with Journey largely because of external pressures (whatever those pressures were and wherever they came from). Why? Because it appears he did a similar schedule nearly 12 years later on the FTLOSM tour. See http://steveperryfanclub.homestead.com/ ... edule.html

In the same 3 month time as the brutal Frontiers tour, there are several 3-in-a-rows (Oct 28-30; Dec 16-18; Jan 25-28 ), a 4-in-a-row (Nov 22-25), and even a stunning 5-in-a-row (Nov. 14-18 ).

Now, I haven't looked back at the Frontiers leg. I do understand there are a few 2 or 3-day breaks on this FTLOSM tour that may or may not have been built into the Frontiers schedule. But I've always heard from singers that anything more than 2 nights in a row really pushes their voices and causes real problems. So really, a few day break or not, the damage is already done when you push yourself that many nights in a row. Burton Cummings blogged at length about this "3-in-a-row phenomenon" a few years ago. Assuming he had this extensive history of "blowing vocal chords" out (according to your band source), it would seem very foolish for either him or his promoter/booking agent to book several 3-in-a-row stints, a 4-in-a-row stint, and a 5-in-a-row stint all in the very narrow 3~ month timeframe nearly 12 YEARS AFTER the alleged initial blowout.

So, while I find the rumors of him blowing his voice out (whatever that actually means medically) very credible (just listen to him after that), I don't find the notion that he did so out of pure outside pressure from the band, record label, Herbie etc. credible. Perry to some extent had to have willingly capitulated to whatever demands the road life was placing on him at that point.

I think the difference was, if Perry missed a show on the FTLOSM tour, it wasn't a big deal. On The Frontiers tour though, Herbie had negotiated it where, if you miss one show out of Four at the Forum or Blaisdell, you wouldn't get paid for other shows there until you came back and made up the missed performance. I'm sure guys didn't want to come back to L.A. or some other place at the end of a grueling tour not to mention the cost to drag the crews back across the country for potentially one or two shows only. I would imagine Herbie putting a lot of pressure on all of them not miss a single gig as it might affect his bottom line in the end.

Fuck, just noticed my post count. I need to really quit this shit and get a life.

[portland]

Jeremey:

This is all great stuff from a singing standpoint. But frankly, upon further research, you lost me at your general conclusion, which is that Perry performed on the schedule he did with Journey largely because of external pressures (whatever those pressures were and wherever they came from). Why? Because it appears he did a similar schedule nearly 12 years later on the FTLOSM tour. See http://steveperryfanclub.homestead.com/ ... edule.html

In the same 3 month time as the brutal Frontiers tour, there are several 3-in-a-rows (Oct 28-30; Dec 16-18; Jan 25-28 ), a 4-in-a-row (Nov 22-25), and even a stunning 5-in-a-row (Nov. 14-18 ).

Now, I haven't looked back at the Frontiers leg. I do understand there are a few 2 or 3-day breaks on this FTLOSM tour that may or may not have been built into the Frontiers schedule. But I've always heard from singers that anything more than 2 nights in a row really pushes their voices and causes real problems. So really, a few day break or not, the damage is already done when you push yourself that many nights in a row. Burton Cummings blogged at length about this "3-in-a-row phenomenon" a few years ago. Assuming he had this extensive history of "blowing vocal chords" out (according to your band source), it would seem very foolish for either him or his promoter/booking agent to book several 3-in-a-row stints, a 4-in-a-row stint, and a 5-in-a-row stint all in the very narrow 3~ month timeframe nearly 12 YEARS AFTER the alleged initial blowout.

So, while I find the rumors of him blowing his voice out (whatever that actually means medically) very credible (just listen to him after that), I don't find the notion that he did so out of pure outside pressure from the band, record label, Herbie etc. credible. Perry to some extent had to have willingly capitulated to whatever demands the road life was placing on him at that point.

I think the difference was, if Perry missed a show on the FTLOSM tour, it wasn't a big deal. On The Frontiers tour though, Herbie had negotiated it where, if you miss one show out of Four at the Forum or Blaisdell, you wouldn't get paid for other shows there until you came back and made up the missed performance. I'm sure guys didn't want to come back to L.A. or some other place at the end of a grueling tour not to mention the cost to drag the crews back across the country for potentially one or two shows only. I would imagine Herbie putting a lot of pressure on all of them not miss a single gig as it might affect his bottom line in the end.

Fuck, just noticed my post count. I need to really quit this shit and get a life.

[brywool]

I agree here, Matty. I believe he pushed himself, too. Why?!? not a clue, but he seemed to have that time is money mentality ...
get as much in as possible?!?

He pushed himself because he was part of the machine and the family of Journey. At that time, the band was also friendly with each other (83). That's a TON of pressure and he caved. I think it's simple as that. Also, you start to think "I've made it through a lot of shows, I can get through it". You want to be hopeful that it'll work out, but in the end, there was a ton of pressure on the guy. He did all he could to fulfill his end of the bargain. Too much. That's why he was isolating himself from the rest of the band on the tour so that his voice could recover. Not cuz he was being a jerk.
I remember reading about Augeri and how he'd turn his hotel room into a steam bath (The Jungle Room) to try and get his voice back after gigs. The guy was constantly behind the 8 ball and trying to keep (or get) his voice in shape.
Arnel is doing the same things. I remember the piece on him in Rollingstone. In the photo, he had two humidifiers going and some natural medications on the counter. It's a lot of work and a lot of pressure to keep the voice in shape.

[slucero]

Here's some real differences between Perry's situation and Augeri's with regard to the pressure of touring...

Perry initially didnt want as massive a tour as the Frontiers tour, and inevitably he agreed. Then when he was pressured to continue the tour after blowing out his voice (again, whatever that means), he agreed to that as well. It would have been nigh well impossible for Perry to have put his foot down at that point with the pressures that were on him. They were the biggest band in the world. The biggest band in the world. There's just no way I believe Perry had the will or even the power to buck management and the band at the time.

So after the tour schedule he was reluctant to agree to, and the last half he did on pills to mask the effects of a damaged voice, he sat back and realized "hey, everyone here got paid, and they can still play their fucking instrument! In the meantime, they got paid because I said alright I'll go and fuck up my voice so you all can get paid and all I have to show for it is this stack of money here that I really didn't need to begin with."

So it wasn't until THAT time that Perry really began to assert himself. He stood up to Herbie (on the band's behalf) when he tried to take control of the band in 85. I heard first hand from people still in Journey that they will always appreciate and respect Perry for standing up on behalf of the band when Herbie tried to change the arrangement and control of the band in his favor. And the ROR tour was nothing as intensive as the Frontiers tour. And there were canceled dates on that tour.

Augeri NEVER had that kind of clout with the band. Heudt have felt the very same pressure (although I have no idea why they toured so much from 98-06). That combined with the ease of those "crutches" Herbie alluded to and possibly a desire to just make more money on HIS part made it much more likely that Augeri would have never had the occasion to stand up and say "okay, I'm done for the next year."
"oh really? You saw what happened to Perry, let's just get Chalfant on the line, thank you Steve come again."

Ehh, I'm more than a little skeptical about this take, Jeremey. It really suggests that Perry was some sort of meek, crippled kitten before ROR and that doesn't mesh with what has been suggested or outright confirmed elsewhere.

I think this is exactly why they gave Perry 'the reins'. The band needed him more than radio needed the band. And that also explains why the band agreed to make themselves a three-piece (sans Valory and Smith). Perry may have been 'crippled' somehow, but at the time, the band & mgt too, knew that the only way to continue success, was with Perry. ROR more solidified Perry, than Perry solidified them. Make sense? I mean, without Perry producing, he may not have God-status. He'd just be considered their greatest singer, and not their owner - which many of us still think. In other words, the band was weak, and Perry capitalized...I'm sure with business & legal advice.

Augeri, on the other hand, never had this chance, since NS finally claimed control.

I think the smartest in this whole history is JC. He has all rights and creative control...without the gravity of being NS.


later~

Interesting, but Perry had no where near the commercial success on his own, compared to him with Journey. That tells me that people viewed the entity of Journey as a meld of the musicians and the artist, not separately. Journey could not go out on the road without a singer anymore than Perry could succeed on the road without Journey. Steve did have a great guitarist that could give Neal a run for his money.

Journey's success had/has as much (I'd argue MORE) to do with the marketing machine Herbie assembled (specifically to push Journey), as it did/does with the musicians... (Herbie all but INVENTED a lot of what became standard marketing techniques for bands in the 80's)

Perry did not have that machine as a solo artist..

without the marketing machine.. Journey would likely have been a musically great, but unknown entity..

I think we both said the same things, except the last part, which I find interesting. So, if I understand this correctly, Journey could be all that it was, if it had another Herbie driving the "machine". That's intriguing. With the current success on the road it almost makes me wonder if what they have is really all they want or need. The price of a decent seat at a concert.....or a beer has never been higher. (Thanks Azoff!) Who is the unabashed capitalist?

ticket prices as a measure of success?

A ticket to a Journey show in 1982 was $12.50
A album cost $9.00 (a year earlier Tom Petty fought his label to keep Hard Promises at $8.98)




A ticket to a show in 2009 - $56.00
A CD costs $9.99




They're making better percentages on their new recordings, royalty-wise.. but nowhere near what they made on their SP-era stuff, volume -wise.

The rise in ticket prices is directly related to the decline in unit sales of CD's... No one is buying albums anymore.. it s singles market now.. and has been moving towards that for some time...

Rising ticket prices is simply the result of artists realizing that record unit sales are no longer going to be a cash flow net-positive... Anybody who thinks that its the promoters who are raising ticket prices is smoking high grade NY crack. All the artists who side with the fans over ticket prices are simply paying them lip service... if they weren't we'd have seen an artist revolt over ticket prices already... but we haven't. At this level its all about money... caring about the fans is nice.. and I'm sure most of it is genuine.. but the days of being a principled "artist" disappear when you are confronted with the simple fact that you employ hundreds of people. Journey is no different... (neither was Perry)

Journey's simply making up for the lower ticket volume with a higher prices.... as all artists have done.


Today the return for the marketing buck is in the ticket price, and fewer tickets need to be sold, marketing is ussually born by the act/mgmt/promoter... in the 80's it was in the records sales, hence the huge label advances and huge marketing machines... concerts were simply a loss leader.

[Michigan Girl]

Jeremey:

This is all great stuff from a singing standpoint. But frankly, upon further research, you lost me at your general conclusion, which is that Perry performed on the schedule he did with Journey largely because of external pressures (whatever those pressures were and wherever they came from). Why? Because it appears he did a similar schedule nearly 12 years later on the FTLOSM tour. See http://steveperryfanclub.homestead.com/ ... edule.html

In the same 3 month time as the brutal Frontiers tour, there are several 3-in-a-rows (Oct 28-30; Dec 16-18; Jan 25-28 ), a 4-in-a-row (Nov 22-25), and even a stunning 5-in-a-row (Nov. 14-18 ).

Now, I haven't looked back at the Frontiers leg. I do understand there are a few 2 or 3-day breaks on this FTLOSM tour that may or may not have been built into the Frontiers schedule. But I've always heard from singers that anything more than 2 nights in a row really pushes their voices and causes real problems. So really, a few day break or not, the damage is already done when you push yourself that many nights in a row. Burton Cummings blogged at length about this "3-in-a-row phenomenon" a few years ago. Assuming he had this extensive history of "blowing vocal chords" out (according to your band source), it would seem very foolish for either him or his promoter/booking agent to book several 3-in-a-row stints, a 4-in-a-row stint, and a 5-in-a-row stint all in the very narrow 3~ month timeframe nearly 12 YEARS AFTER the alleged initial blowout.

So, while I find the rumors of him blowing his voice out (whatever that actually means medically) very credible (just listen to him after that), I don't find the notion that he did so out of pure outside pressure from the band, record label, Herbie etc. credible. Perry to some extent had to have willingly capitulated to whatever demands the road life was placing on him at that point.

I think the difference was, if Perry missed a show on the FTLOSM tour, it wasn't a big deal. On The Frontiers tour though, Herbie had negotiated it where, if you miss one show out of Four at the Forum or Blaisdell, you wouldn't get paid for other shows there until you came back and made up the missed performance. I'm sure guys makes sense!!
didn't want to come back to L.A. or some other place at the end of a grueling tour not to mention the cost to drag the crews back across the country for potentially one or two shows only. I would imagine Herbie putting a lot of pressure on all of them not miss a single gig as it might affect his bottom line in the end.

Fuck, just noticed my post count. I need to really quit this shit and get a life.

makes sense!!

[Don]

Here's some real differences between Perry's situation and Augeri's with regard to the pressure of touring...

Perry initially didnt want as massive a tour as the Frontiers tour, and inevitably he agreed. Then when he was pressured to continue the tour after blowing out his voice (again, whatever that means), he agreed to that as well. It would have been nigh well impossible for Perry to have put his foot down at that point with the pressures that were on him. They were the biggest band in the world. The biggest band in the world. There's just no way I believe Perry had the will or even the power to buck management and the band at the time.

So after the tour schedule he was reluctant to agree to, and the last half he did on pills to mask the effects of a damaged voice, he sat back and realized "hey, everyone here got paid, and they can still play their fucking instrument! In the meantime, they got paid because I said alright I'll go and fuck up my voice so you all can get paid and all I have to show for it is this stack of money here that I really didn't need to begin with."

So it wasn't until THAT time that Perry really began to assert himself. He stood up to Herbie (on the band's behalf) when he tried to take control of the band in 85. I heard first hand from people still in Journey that they will always appreciate and respect Perry for standing up on behalf of the band when Herbie tried to change the arrangement and control of the band in his favor. And the ROR tour was nothing as intensive as the Frontiers tour. And there were canceled dates on that tour.

Augeri NEVER had that kind of clout with the band. Heudt have felt the very same pressure (although I have no idea why they toured so much from 98-06). That combined with the ease of those "crutches" Herbie alluded to and possibly a desire to just make more money on HIS part made it much more likely that Augeri would have never had the occasion to stand up and say "okay, I'm done for the next year."
"oh really? You saw what happened to Perry, let's just get Chalfant on the line, thank you Steve come again."

Ehh, I'm more than a little skeptical about this take, Jeremey. It really suggests that Perry was some sort of meek, crippled kitten before ROR and that doesn't mesh with what has been suggested or outright confirmed elsewhere.

I think this is exactly why they gave Perry 'the reins'. The band needed him more than radio needed the band. And that also explains why the band agreed to make themselves a three-piece (sans Valory and Smith). Perry may have been 'crippled' somehow, but at the time, the band & mgt too, knew that the only way to continue success, was with Perry. ROR more solidified Perry, than Perry solidified them. Make sense? I mean, without Perry producing, he may not have God-status. He'd just be considered their greatest singer, and not their owner - which many of us still think. In other words, the band was weak, and Perry capitalized...I'm sure with business & legal advice.

Augeri, on the other hand, never had this chance, since NS finally claimed control.

I think the smartest in this whole history is JC. He has all rights and creative control...without the gravity of being NS.


later~

Interesting, but Perry had no where near the commercial success on his own, compared to him with Journey. That tells me that people viewed the entity of Journey as a meld of the musicians and the artist, not separately. Journey could not go out on the road without a singer anymore than Perry could succeed on the road without Journey. Steve did have a great guitarist that could give Neal a run for his money.

Journey's success had/has as much (I'd argue MORE) to do with the marketing machine Herbie assembled (specifically to push Journey), as it did/does with the musicians... (Herbie all but INVENTED a lot of what became standard marketing techniques for bands in the 80's)

Perry did not have that machine as a solo artist..

without the marketing machine.. Journey would likely have been a musically great, but unknown entity..

I think we both said the same things, except the last part, which I find interesting. So, if I understand this correctly, Journey could be all that it was, if it had another Herbie driving the "machine". That's intriguing. With the current success on the road it almost makes me wonder if what they have is really all they want or need. The price of a decent seat at a concert.....or a beer has never been higher. (Thanks Azoff!) Who is the unabashed capitalist?

ticket prices as a measure of success?

A ticket to a Journey show in 1982 was $12.50




A ticket to a show in 2009 - $56.00




They're making better percentages on their new recordings, royalty-wise.. but nowhere near what they made on their SP-era stuff, volume -wise.

The rise in ticket prices is directly related to the decline in unit sales of CD's... No one is buying albums anymore.. it s singles market now.. and has been moving towards that for some time...

Rising ticket prices is simply the result of artists realizing that record unit sales are no longer going to be a cash flow net-positive... Anybody who thinks that its the promoters who are raising ticket prices is smoking high grade NY crack. All the artists who side with the fans over ticket prices are simply paying them lip service... if they weren't we'd have seen an artist revolt over ticket prices already... but we haven't. At this level its all about money... caring about the fans is nice.. and I'm sure most of it is genuine.. but the days of being a principled "artist" disappear when you are confronted with the simple fact that you employ hundreds of people. Journey is no different... (neither was Perry)

Journey's simply making up for the lower ticket volume with a higher prices.... as all artists have done.


Today the return for the marketing buck is in the ticket price, and fewer tickets need to be sold, marketing is ussually born by the act/mgmt/promoter... in the 80's it was in the records sales, hence the huge label advances and huge marketing machines... concerts were simply a loss leader.

The $12.50 ticket would be around 33 dollars today if adjusted for inflation. That Hawaii ticket might not be the best measuring stick as fucking everything over there seems to cost more than the mainland.

[Ehwmatt]

Jeremey:

This is all great stuff from a singing standpoint. But frankly, upon further research, you lost me at your general conclusion, which is that Perry performed on the schedule he did with Journey largely because of external pressures (whatever those pressures were and wherever they came from). Why? Because it appears he did a similar schedule nearly 12 years later on the FTLOSM tour. See http://steveperryfanclub.homestead.com/ ... edule.html

In the same 3 month time as the brutal Frontiers tour, there are several 3-in-a-rows (Oct 28-30; Dec 16-18; Jan 25-28 ), a 4-in-a-row (Nov 22-25), and even a stunning 5-in-a-row (Nov. 14-18 ).

Now, I haven't looked back at the Frontiers leg. I do understand there are a few 2 or 3-day breaks on this FTLOSM tour that may or may not have been built into the Frontiers schedule. But I've always heard from singers that anything more than 2 nights in a row really pushes their voices and causes real problems. So really, a few day break or not, the damage is already done when you push yourself that many nights in a row. Burton Cummings blogged at length about this "3-in-a-row phenomenon" a few years ago. Assuming he had this extensive history of "blowing vocal chords" out (according to your band source), it would seem very foolish for either him or his promoter/booking agent to book several 3-in-a-row stints, a 4-in-a-row stint, and a 5-in-a-row stint all in the very narrow 3~ month timeframe nearly 12 YEARS AFTER the alleged initial blowout.

So, while I find the rumors of him blowing his voice out (whatever that actually means medically) very credible (just listen to him after that), I don't find the notion that he did so out of pure outside pressure from the band, record label, Herbie etc. credible. Perry to some extent had to have willingly capitulated to whatever demands the road life was placing on him at that point.

I agree here, Matty. I believe he pushed himself, too. Why?!? not a clue, but he seemed to have that time is money mentality ...
get as much in as possible?!?

And there's nothing wrong with that mentality. It was a wise move. Strike while the iron's hot. Although it's truer today than it ever was, the entertainment business has always been 1 characterized by short-lived success for whatever reason. It's a lot like today's athletes getting these massive guaranteed contracts and quickly getting old. It's frustrating as hell for a fan (and the team/owners/GM), but hey, you can't fault the guy. I don't fault Perry.

In the end, there's no reason to lionize Perry as some noble hero who gave his all and got little in return. Let's assume his voice is as bad as some believe it is at this point. Fine. The guy made enough money working for basically an 8-year period to never have to work again. By the end of that period (RoR tour), he was 37 or 38. Hell, it takes most people nearly that amount of time just to get entrenched in the career they want to be in (and it takes some longer!). If the worst he got out of that whole period was a blown-out voice, then that ain't bad. Halfway successful businesspeople get fat, get heart disease, bad blood pressure, may have to travel and be away or be foreclosed from having a family (to a much greater extent than Perry) and the like all to the tune of working for 35+ years and don't live nearly as well when it's all said and done. And even the athlete with an 8 or 9-year career might have severe problems just getting out of bed or going up or down stairs. All told, Perry made out just fine. I wouldn't spend one ounce of sympathy on him.

[slucero]

The $12.50 ticket would be around 33 dollars today if adjusted for inflation. That Hawaii ticket might not be the best measuring stick as fucking everything over there seems to cost more than the mainland.

Correct.. except you don't pay for it in "todays" dollars.. but more importantly.. In the 80's you made your "hay" on album sales.. and concerts were a driver of album sales.. the artists are not making the same volume on CD/single sales as they were in the 80's.... today's artists make their money on ticket and merch sales..

[Don]

The sadder story would have been if Perry had lost both his voice and his fortune. The latter seems to have been not the case though if the stories of him being tighter than a Jewish nat's ass are true.

[brywool]

.... All told, Perry made out just fine. I wouldn't spend one ounce of sympathy on him.

eh, I dunno. To lose THAT gift is a pretty big price.

Hmm, I'm thinking deal with the devil and he screwed him!

[Don]

The $12.50 ticket would be around 33 dollars today if adjusted for inflation. That Hawaii ticket might not be the best measuring stick as fucking everything over there seems to cost more than the mainland.

Correct.. except you don't pay for it in "todays" dollars.. but more importantly.. In the 80's you made your "hay" on album sales.. and concerts were a driver of album sales.. the artists are not making the same volume on CD/single sales as they were in the 80's.... today's artists make their money on ticket and merch sales..

You are correct there. Touring or or licensing the hell out your catalog is the best way to make money now.

[SF-Dano]

There is a whole lot of speculation being masked as fact here. But it does make for a great discussion.

[Don]

There is a whole lot of speculation being masked as fact here. But it does make for a great discussion.

That's never stopped us before.

[slucero]

There is a whole lot of speculation being masked as fact here. But it does make for a great discussion.

are you new?