Eclipse Billboard - Flop

[Monker]

I can't see how anyone can make this argument with a straight face. The Glee and Sopranos DSB-revival has put the band back in the zeitgeist and awakened people to the fact that Journey still exists. Compared to their peers (Styx, REO, Foreigner), Journey is doing very well. Your disgruntled contrarian act is beyond stale.

Yeah....look at REO. REO isn't even at the level to open for Journey at this stage - and they have their original singer. I'm happy where Journey is. New music that I enjoy and respect. Headlining tours. Everyone loves DSB.

I do wish they'd so a small mini-tour for the fans, but that is probably my only gripe.

It will be interesting to see how they sell on this tour. I doubt it will be quite at successful as their tour after Revelation was released.

[brywool]

Or the fact that ALL those albums had better, more listenable, more broader market songs.....

SERIOUSLY?

THAT is what Journey fans want from Journey is "broader market" tracks? Screw that.

Man, I'm SO enjoying the departure from "The Journey Formula".
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Journey formula, but I love more to be surprised by something. I remember when Revelation came out. Everyone was griping about "wow, it sounds like their old stuff, where's your imagination? Trying to reinvent 'Be Good to Yourself', 'too many ballads', etc.".

Now the band does a complete left turn (AND DOESN'T WHIMP OUT, like say, Bon Jovi did) and turns it up a notch, and they get slammed for throwing the formula out the window and taking a risk???

Makes NO sense to me. I think Journey should be commended for trying to go in another direction. As Cain said "there are PLENTY of ballads out there in the Journey catalog for those people who need that. We just want to do something different this time" (paraphrasing).

At least they are still making new music that's decent. There are other bands out there that would rather ride the greatest hits gravy train.

[jrny84]

I can't see how anyone can make this argument with a straight face. The Glee and Sopranos DSB-revival has put the band back in the zeitgeist and awakened people to the fact that Journey still exists. Compared to their peers (Styx, REO, Foreigner), Journey is doing very well. Your disgruntled contrarian act is beyond stale.

Yeah....look at REO. REO isn't even at the level to open for Journey at this stage - and they have their original singer. I'm happy where Journey is. New music that I enjoy and respect. Headlining tours. Everyone loves DSB.

I do wish they'd so a small mini-tour for the fans, but that is probably my only gripe.

It will be interesting to see how they sell on this tour. I doubt it will be quite at successful as their tour after Revelation was released.

I dont think it will be as successful as the Revelation tour, but most of the venues in Europe that they have played in so far were sold out or near sell outs. I know in many of the major cities in North America like Toronto, Detroit, Chicago,...etc are selling very well. It will be interesting to see how well they hold up in the states overall.

[Monker]

What has helped Arrival and Escape, Frontiers, etc. to puff up their numbers late in the retail cycle is the steep discounts that a big label like Sony can offer and being able to get the discounted product from multiple sources.
Best Buy has Arrival for seven bucks and even offers the SACD version for 20 dollars. At Target , the album can be had for 6 dollars and as we have seen at Wal-Mart over the years, the whole Journey back catalog has been marked down to a fiver on certain occasions.
The inhouse releases like Generations and Red 13 can't do that and Wal-Mart doesn't seem too keen to offer steep cuts on its own already bargain priced exclusives either so the chances of seeing Revelation fly under the radar with 500 to 1,000 sales a week years after release seems pretty slim.

Again, in Arrival's case, this just isn't true. Sony had an initial release and then they did not even restock retail. As Kevin Shirley put it, Sony had their expectations and did not look past them. Discount it later on? What are you talking about? Sony does not set Best Buy's prices. That just seems ridiculous.

Arrival kept selling because of the success of the DVD, getting songs on radio, the videos, the tour, all of the various promo of the band. THAT is what kept Arrival 'alive' and selling 10,000 or so for weeks.

I don't think the numbers of those albums are 'puffed up'. What are the weekly numbers for Arrival, Escape, and Frontiers? A couple thousand a week? They are just Evergreen albums with a lot of popular songs...and I'm not sure I would count Arrival among them.

[The_Noble_Cause]

EXACTLY. The 2001 DVD sold - so people KNEW ABOUT ARRIVAL. THAT was my point - you are WRONG in saying nobody knew about Arrival. I said, people knew about it but didn't buy it. I have NOT said it is a successful album.

I'd wager that 90% of the consumers hit skip on their dvd remote when it came to "Higher Place" and "All the Way." Again, nobody knew. Nobody cared.

That was during Revelation. Now they are back to the days of Arrival and Red 13, except even few people buy their music. THAT was my poing.

Your argument would make sense two years ago - it doesn't any longer because the band switched directions away from their retro sound - and even fewer people bought into it then Arrival.

If Eclipse was packaged with the hits, it would have sold more. It wasn't and it still fared decently, given the total lack of PR. I really don't know what your point is. I don't think you do either. When the band zigs, you zag. It's the way of a reactionary curmudgeon asswipe. Sounds like you're just bitter that the Augeri lineup was stillborn from birth.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Arrival kept selling because of the success of the DVD, getting songs on radio, the videos, the tour, all of the various promo of the band. THAT is what kept Arrival 'alive' and selling 10,000 or so for weeks.

Get the hell outta here. If "Arrival" sold like gangbusters, why did Sony hand them their walking papers and have Cain re-thinking ever making full-length albums again? You're living on a parallel earth, man.

[Red13JoePa]

Arrival kept selling because of the success of the DVD, getting songs on radio, the videos, the tour, all of the various promo of the band. THAT is what kept Arrival 'alive' and selling 10,000 or so for weeks.

Kept seeling Alive It only charted for, what? 2 weeks? With a peak position in the 50s?

They've had two straight top 20 albums.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Kept seeling Alive It only charted for, what? 2 weeks? With a peak position in the 50s?

They've had two straight top 20 albums.

Yea, it's sheer craziness.

[Red13JoePa]

Kept seeling Alive It only charted for, what? 2 weeks? With a peak position in the 50s?

They've had two straight top 20 albums.

Yea, it's sheer craziness.

2 straight top SIXTEENS to be accurate.
Hell I am huge an of the Arrival lineup but I cannot for sanity's sake make an argument that Arrival was more successful than Eclipse, at least relatively speaking.

There were way more people buying cds then and it couldn't get top 50.

[Greg]

Honestly, nobody outside the hardcore Journey fans care about this line-up of the band either. Let's be realists about this. How many Pineda Journey songs are being played in movies? TV? Radio? Not saying Foreigner is bigger, but I would say if anything, other than the exposure Journey AND Steve Perry has gotten from the revival of DSB, they're having just as much success as Foreigner. Like I said, I hear new Foreigner on the radio a lot more than new Journey stuff.

Depends how you quantify success. DSB is the most downloaded song in history. As far as irrelevant dinosaur acts go, Journey almost became hip in the past year. Go figure. The use of DSB on Glee and The Sopranos and The OC def. raised their profile among "the kids". Now, if you're looking exclusively at sales of new material, then yes, they are in the same boat. But I'd argue that Journey is now increasingly known among a younger demographic...does this translate into bigger touring revenues in the US? Time will tell. I say yes.

But I guess this goes back to an earlier point I was making. If in fact Journey, today, is "hip" with the younger crowd, it's because of their old stuff. It's because of Don't Stop Believing. It's not because of Resonate or Chain of Love or After All These Years. The sales of the new album has already proven that point. Actually, a good litmus test of this would be for the band to go out and play nothing but new songs with Don't Stop Believing being the only catalog song they play, and see how well the band does touring.

[Monker]

EXACTLY. The 2001 DVD sold - so people KNEW ABOUT ARRIVAL. THAT was my point - you are WRONG in saying nobody knew about Arrival. I said, people knew about it but didn't buy it. I have NOT said it is a successful album.

I'd wager that 90% of the consumers hit skip on their dvd remote when it came to "Higher Place" and "All the Way." Again, nobody knew. Nobody cared.

That was during Revelation. Now they are back to the days of Arrival and Red 13, except even few people buy their music. THAT was my poing.

Your argument would make sense two years ago - it doesn't any longer because the band switched directions away from their retro sound - and even fewer people bought into it then Arrival.

If Eclipse was packaged with the hits, it would have sold more. It wasn't and it still fared decently, given the total lack of PR. I really don't know what your point is. I don't think you do either. When the band zigs, you zag. It's the way of a reactionary curmudgeon asswipe. Sounds like you're just bitter that the Augeri lineup was stillborn from birth.

The point is that you are not giving Arrival enough credit, and you are over propping Eclipse,

You call Arrival a flop....and you say Eclipse 'faired decently'....Even though Arrival sold twice as much as Eclipse.

Either Eclipse is a huge monstrous flop...Or, Arrival is a huge success...cuz you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. To me, it sounds like you are trying to insult Arrival to prop up Eclipse. it just doesn't work.

Eclipse should have been packaged with the 'hits'...which are not 'hits', but rerecordings of hits. Then they could have made the case of moving on. As it is, they sound like they don't know what the hell they want to do.

[Monker]

Arrival kept selling because of the success of the DVD, getting songs on radio, the videos, the tour, all of the various promo of the band. THAT is what kept Arrival 'alive' and selling 10,000 or so for weeks.

Get the hell outta here. If "Arrival" sold like gangbusters, why did Sony hand them their walking papers and have Cain re-thinking ever making full-length albums again? You're living on a parallel earth, man.

LOL...it didn't sell like gangbusters. Since when is 10,000 sales/week very impressive? It just died a slower death then Eclipse - THAT IS WHY ARRIVAL SOLD 200,000 or so and Eclipse may not even make 100,00. That is the bottom line...get over it.,

And, if Eclipse sold impressively in ANY definition, I'm sure we'll be hearing about the next Wal-Mart exclusive very soon.

Yeah, right.

[Monker]

Arrival kept selling because of the success of the DVD, getting songs on radio, the videos, the tour, all of the various promo of the band. THAT is what kept Arrival 'alive' and selling 10,000 or so for weeks.

Kept seeling Alive It only charted for, what? 2 weeks? With a peak position in the 50s?

They've had two straight top 20 albums.

LOL...having a top 20 album that only sells 35,000 copies is NOT very impressive.

Yes, Arrival kept selling 10,000 copies a week for a couple months....regardless of where it charted. I'm not saying that very impressive - it's not. But, it's more then Eclipse did. That is a simple fact.

[Monker]

Kept seeling Alive It only charted for, what? 2 weeks? With a peak position in the 50s?

They've had two straight top 20 albums.

Yea, it's sheer craziness.

2 straight top SIXTEENS to be accurate.
Hell I am huge an of the Arrival lineup but I cannot for sanity's sake make an argument that Arrival was more successful than Eclipse, at least relatively speaking.

There were way more people buying cds then and it couldn't get top 50.[/quote

And, there were way more CD's being released, too.

[Monker]

Or the fact that ALL those albums had better, more listenable, more broader market songs.....

SERIOUSLY?

THAT is what Journey fans want from Journey is "broader market" tracks? Screw that.

Don't take Toph seriously. He's just a troll.

[Monker]

Honestly, nobody outside the hardcore Journey fans care about this line-up of the band either. Let's be realists about this. How many Pineda Journey songs are being played in movies? TV? Radio? Not saying Foreigner is bigger, but I would say if anything, other than the exposure Journey AND Steve Perry has gotten from the revival of DSB, they're having just as much success as Foreigner. Like I said, I hear new Foreigner on the radio a lot more than new Journey stuff.

Depends how you quantify success. DSB is the most downloaded song in history. As far as irrelevant dinosaur acts go, Journey almost became hip in the past year. Go figure. The use of DSB on Glee and The Sopranos and The OC def. raised their profile among "the kids". Now, if you're looking exclusively at sales of new material, then yes, they are in the same boat. But I'd argue that Journey is now increasingly known among a younger demographic...does this translate into bigger touring revenues in the US? Time will tell. I say yes.

But I guess this goes back to an earlier point I was making. If in fact Journey, today, is "hip" with the younger crowd, it's because of their old stuff. It's because of Don't Stop Believing. It's not because of Resonate or Chain of Love or After All These Years. The sales of the new album has already proven that point. Actually, a good litmus test of this would be for the band to go out and play nothing but new songs with Don't Stop Believing being the only catalog song they play, and see how well the band does touring.

Exactly. They can not have popularity without connecting themselves with the 80's. And, they can not have creativity without sacrificing their popularity. They are screwed and they did it to themselves.

[The_Noble_Cause]

But I guess this goes back to an earlier point I was making. If in fact Journey, today, is "hip" with the younger crowd, it's because of their old stuff. It's because of Don't Stop Believing. It's not because of Resonate or Chain of Love or After All These Years. The sales of the new album has already proven that point.

What's so wrong with that? It's still Journey. At least younger listeners are re-discovering the band thanks to DSB.

[slucero]

But I guess this goes back to an earlier point I was making. If in fact Journey, today, is "hip" with the younger crowd, it's because of their old stuff. It's because of Don't Stop Believing. It's not because of Resonate or Chain of Love or After All These Years. The sales of the new album has already proven that point.

What's so wrong with that? It's still Journey. At least younger listeners are re-discovering the band thanks to DSB.

..amd will re-forget them thanks to Eclipse...

[The_Noble_Cause]

..amd will re-forget them thanks to Eclipse...

Short of selling their soul and re-recording DSB with a rapper for Eclipse, there was little chance of the younger demo buying new stuff anyway. Quit yer bitchin.

[Red13JoePa]

Kept seeling Alive It only charted for, what? 2 weeks? With a peak position in the 50s?

They've had two straight top 20 albums.

Yea, it's sheer craziness.

2 straight top SIXTEENS to be accurate.
Hell I am huge an of the Arrival lineup but I cannot for sanity's sake make an argument that Arrival was more successful than Eclipse, at least relatively speaking.

There were way more people buying cds then and it couldn't get top 50.[/quote

And, there were way more CD's being released, too.

Yea. We're lucky our favorite bands put ANYthing out anymore....

[strangegrey]

They could have put out an Escape level album again and Frank would hate it. That's one jaded motherfucker, where Journey is concerned. He's one amongst many.

That's just not true at all. I will freely admit that I was jaded a handful years ago. The singer mess this band went through was fucking shameful and deplorable. however, we're all X many years removed from all of that crap.

There is no one that wanted this album to be a fucking killer, shut-the-fucking-critics-up stellar album more than me. I don't care who's singing....I think Arnel's good enough to front this band into stardom again...and frankly, he's the only one that impresses me on Eclipse.

The cold, hard fact of the matter is that these songs suck...alot. I've been forcing this album down my ears for several weeks now, hoping and praying that somewhere, something will click, and I'll hear something that i wasn't before. And with each listen, I hear more that I hate about the record than I like. It gets worse with every listen, not better. Thats not the sign of a good album.

I can't speak for Frank, but I do think it's retarded beyond words to judge an product based on one's personal feelings towards the person making it (and that goes both ways).

You'd better not speak for me...because there's no fucking way you're going to get away with saying that I'm judging Eclipse based on how I feel towards the band members. It's the songs stupid. nothing else. Neal could be a complete degenerate motherfucker with 5 alimony checks to pay and a line of human singer wreckage behind him...(oh, wait...lol ).....but if he puts out a good, slamming fucking record. I'm going to buy it, I'm going to eat it up and try to learn every guitar lick I possibly can, learn every lyric and sing my measly black guts out every time I drive somewhere....

I also agree with Strangegrey, there are good parts in a lot, if not all, of the songs but most of the songs are incomplete. COL, EOTM, Reasonate, Ritual, and I'll officially throw in AIP are good to great songs (especially the first 3 or 4 I mentioned). But, the others - they miss. Some a little, some a little more.

Perhaps thats one way of looking at it. I'm not sure I would say incomplete, unless you look at it from a production standpoint, because who ever actually produced this record, failed the band. No good producer would let these songs, which have moments of good-moments, evolve into the garbage they are currently in. Again, it's the songs, stupid. (not calling you or Geideon stupid, just channeling the 'its the economy, stupid' phrase)

[Rick]

They could have put out an Escape level album again and Frank would hate it. That's one jaded motherfucker, where Journey is concerned. He's one amongst many.

That's just not true at all. I will freely admit that I was jaded a handful years ago. The singer mess this band went through was fucking shameful and deplorable. however, we're all X many years removed from all of that crap.

There is no one that wanted this album to be a fucking killer, shut-the-fucking-critics-up stellar album more than me. I don't care who's singing....I think Arnel's good enough to front this band into stardom again...and frankly, he's the only one that impresses me on Eclipse.

The cold, hard fact of the matter is that these songs suck...alot. I've been forcing this album down my ears for several weeks now, hoping and praying that somewhere, something will click, and I'll hear something that i wasn't before. And with each listen, I hear more that I hate about the record than I like. It gets worse with every listen, not better. Thats not the sign of a good album.

I've got a few gripes about it, but overall, I'm still really enjoying it. I'm glad you at least gave it a fair chance.

[Gideon]

You'd better not speak for me...

It's a good thing I didn't; I wouldn't want a scary hardass like you on my bad side.

[strangegrey]

You'd better not speak for me...

It's a good thing I didn't; I wouldn't want a scary hardass like you on my bad side.

[Toph]

Or the fact that ALL those albums had better, more listenable, more broader market songs.....

SERIOUSLY?

THAT is what Journey fans want from Journey is "broader market" tracks? Screw that.

Man, I'm SO enjoying the departure from "The Journey Formula".
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the Journey formula, but I love more to be surprised by something. I remember when Revelation came out. Everyone was griping about "wow, it sounds like their old stuff, where's your imagination? Trying to reinvent 'Be Good to Yourself', 'too many ballads', etc.".

Now the band does a complete left turn (AND DOESN'T WHIMP OUT, like say, Bon Jovi did) and turns it up a notch, and they get slammed for throwing the formula out the window and taking a risk???

Makes NO sense to me. I think Journey should be commended for trying to go in another direction. As Cain said "there are PLENTY of ballads out there in the Journey catalog for those people who need that. We just want to do something different this time" (paraphrasing).

At least they are still making new music that's decent. There are other bands out there that would rather ride the greatest hits gravy train.

Yeah that is right. I want an album of classic sounding Journey songs. So sue me. I want some up tempo big hummable choruses. I want a few ballads sprinkled in. I want some upbeat melodies. That is what I liked about Journey in the first place. If I want 6 minute Neal Schon guitar odysseys, I'll buy Soul Sirkus. Perry was right when he said, "Go do whatever you want and whomever you want to do with, but just don't put the name Journey on it." Perry is right. This ain't Journey.

[Gideon]

Yeah that is right. I want an album of classic sounding Journey songs. So sue me. I want some up tempo big hummable choruses. I want a few ballads sprinkled in. I want some upbeat melodies. That is what I liked about Journey in the first place. If I want 6 minute Neal Schon guitar odysseys, I'll buy Soul Sirkus. Perry was right when he said, "Go do whatever you want and whomever you want to do with, but just don't put the name Journey on it." Perry is right. This ain't Journey.

I understand where you're coming from, but when you think about it deeper, Journey never really maintained an ironclad formula even with Perry. Their music underwent a colossal evolution (pun intended) throughout their entire career. Perhaps the band's name really is appropriate.

[Red13JoePa]

You'd better not speak for me...

It's a good thing I didn't; I wouldn't want a scary hardass like you on my bad side.

LMFAO!

Frank is scary as shit when he's pissed and in bash mode.

[conversationpc]

You'd better not speak for me...

It's a good thing I didn't; I wouldn't want a scary hardass like you on my bad side.

LMFAO!

Frank is scary and funny as shit when he's pissed and in bash mode.

Fixed

[slucero]

Yeah that is right. I want an album of classic sounding Journey songs. So sue me. I want some up tempo big hummable choruses. I want a few ballads sprinkled in. I want some upbeat melodies. That is what I liked about Journey in the first place. If I want 6 minute Neal Schon guitar odysseys, I'll buy Soul Sirkus. Perry was right when he said, "Go do whatever you want and whomever you want to do with, but just don't put the name Journey on it." Perry is right. This ain't Journey.

I understand where you're coming from, but when you think about it deeper, Journey never really maintained an ironclad formula even with Perry. Their music underwent a colossal evolution (pun intended) throughout their entire career. Perhaps the band's name really is appropriate.

Evolution (lol) as in, "progressive, well crafted songs, yet largely unmarketable to a larger audience" to "great songwriting, hooky, with generation spanning melodies".... to "sonically excellent, progressive, yet likely unmarketable"?

1. Pre=Perry Journey: while progressive, had really interesting melodic sensibilities and was listenable..
2. Perry-era Journey: pretty self explanatory
3. Post Perry to Pre-Eclipse: numerous attempts at recapturing the legacy sound
4. Eclipse: has none of the melodic intricacy of the Pre-Perry stuff and none of the appeal of the Perry-era or the post-Perry/pre-Eclipse era

I'm not sure I'd call that evolution.. surely, good/bad, right/wrong... it is moving away from having a broader appeal..

[Red13JoePa]

You'd better not speak for me...

It's a good thing I didn't; I wouldn't want a scary hardass like you on my bad side.

LMFAO!

Frank is scary and funny as shit when he's pissed and in bash mode.

Fixed

Right, goes w/out saying. Who can ever forget his manifesto on BT?