STATE OF THE JOURNEY BOARD ADDRESS

[Monker]

In terms of your assertion that "nobody knows" whether or not Journey would have become what they became without Perry is as moronic of a statement for anyone to make! I hear some of the dopes over at BT make the same argument.

No, what is moronic is you, or anybody else, saying they can form some kinda alternate timeline and predict how this and that would be if this and that changed. THAT is pure guesswork and has no basis in fact AT ALL. You have NO IDEA what would happen.

As for BT'ers, blah, blah, blah. I was saying the above since before Augeri was even hired. Where do you think they got that argument from?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Monker (because you clearly are the guy who knows everything), but wasn't Journey together as a band some 5 years before Perry joined the band????

Yes. And, they were moving in a more vocal direction before Perry even joined the band. Infinity was in the process of being written. To say that no other singer could have sang "Wheel In the Sky" and it would not hae been picked up on radio is YOUR speculation - you do NOT know that for a fact. You have no idea what would have happened.

It is also a fact that the first three Perry era albums were NOT hugely successful. Even Robyn Flanns wrote that Journey was a fledging rock band during that time. Neal was wrong when he said that Perry brought ALL of the success.

I'm pretty sure that's long enough to prove that they were toiling away in less than mediocrity before Perry's voice was added to the mix! [/'quote]

I do NOT consider those first album 'mediocrity'...They were just not pop music. They were told to get a lead singer, get some hits, or the label would drop them. That happened because of HERBIE's influence...and I doubt he would have let his band die at that time - Perry or no Perry. I think he would have done whatever it took to make Journey succeed.

Did Journey have any commercial success before Perry?

Of course not...But, they also were not striving to have hits - until they were TOLD to by the label. When they were - Herbie made the label happy. To say it HAD to be Perry is being VERY naive.

Ask yourself this question. Has Journey had any commercial success since Perry departed Journey?

Have they tried to, since Arrival - which DID have some limited 'success'? NO, they gave up.

But, that has NOTHING to do with some other singer being in Perry's place from Infinity on.

That's the only "reality" I need to face!

No, the reality you need to face is that Perry did NOT bring huge success on the first THREE albums Journey released. He led Journey to mediocrity with both ROR and TBF...and BOTH of those albums were layered with controversy - which ALL revolved around Perry and his decsions - or inability to make a decsion.

[A Fire Inside]

8. I DESPISE Augeri fans...I think they're all a bunch of whine bags and carry on like 12 year old boys in heat!

Well, now you know how some of us feel about Perry fans. I think my appreciation for the man's talent has actually diminished over the years BECAUSE of these people.

[Enigma869]

/quote]

8. I DESPISE Augeri fans...I think they're all a bunch of whine bags and carry on like 12 year old boys in heat!

Not entirely unlike Red Sox fans.

Hmmmm....Red Sox fans carry on like 12 year old boys in heat???? Okay...I guess you shut me up!

John from Boston

[Red13JoePa]

Not trying to shut you up, Reardon.

[Enigma869]

In terms of your assertion that "nobody knows" whether or not Journey would have become what they became without Perry is as moronic of a statement for anyone to make! I hear some of the dopes over at BT make the same argument.

No, what is moronic is you, or anybody else, saying they can form some kinda alternate timeline and predict how this and that would be if this and that changed. THAT is pure guesswork and has no basis in fact AT ALL. You have NO IDEA what would happen.

As for BT'ers, blah, blah, blah. I was saying the above since before Augeri was even hired. Where do you think they got that argument from?

Correct me if I'm wrong here, Monker (because you clearly are the guy who knows everything), but wasn't Journey together as a band some 5 years before Perry joined the band????

Yes. And, they were moving in a more vocal direction before Perry even joined the band. Infinity was in the process of being written. To say that no other singer could have sang "Wheel In the Sky" and it would not hae been picked up on radio is YOUR speculation - you do NOT know that for a fact. You have no idea what would have happened.

It is also a fact that the first three Perry era albums were NOT hugely successful. Even Robyn Flanns wrote that Journey was a fledging rock band during that time. Neal was wrong when he said that Perry brought ALL of the success.

I'm pretty sure that's long enough to prove that they were toiling away in less than mediocrity before Perry's voice was added to the mix! [/'quote]

I do NOT consider those first album 'mediocrity'...They were just not pop music. They were told to get a lead singer, get some hits, or the label would drop them. That happened because of HERBIE's influence...and I doubt he would have let his band die at that time - Perry or no Perry. I think he would have done whatever it took to make Journey succeed.

Did Journey have any commercial success before Perry?

Of course not...But, they also were not striving to have hits - until they were TOLD to by the label. When they were - Herbie made the label happy. To say it HAD to be Perry is being VERY naive.

Ask yourself this question. Has Journey had any commercial success since Perry departed Journey?

Have they tried to, since Arrival - which DID have some limited 'success'? NO, they gave up.

But, that has NOTHING to do with some other singer being in Perry's place from Infinity on.

That's the only "reality" I need to face!

No, the reality you need to face is that Perry did NOT bring huge success on the first THREE albums Journey released. He led Journey to mediocrity with both ROR and TBF...and BOTH of those albums were layered with controversy - which ALL revolved around Perry and his decsions - or inability to make a decsion.

Whatever you say, omnipotent one! How dare I question the great Monker. Listen...you have your opinions, and I have mine. We'll never agree, and I'm pretty okay with that. Whether or not Journey "would have" ever had any success without Perry is completely irrelevant...They didn't have that success without the guy! Just like it can't be assumed that another lead singer couldn't have sung Journey's hits, it also can't be assumed that another singer would have had hits with the same songs (especially considering Perry had a hand in writing most of them, along with Cain).

John from Boston

[Liz22562]

Perry fan, Augeri Fan and Journey Fan here. Can't remember the last time I did any whining...guess I'll have to research my prior posts.

Peace, as always, to all!

[Matthew]

No, what is moronic is you, or anybody else, saying they can form some kinda alternate timeline and predict how this and that would be if this and that changed. THAT is pure guesswork and has no basis in fact AT ALL. You have NO IDEA what would happen.

First that....

....and then this:

I doubt he would have let his band die at that time - Perry or no Perry. I think he would have done whatever it took to make Journey succeed.

Well - whether or not your alternative timeline is credible - the reality of what ACTUALLY happened is that:

a) Journey were about to be dropped by their label.

b) Perry joined

c) Journey became one of the biggest bands in America.

c) Perry left.

d) Journey got dropped by their label.


Your comment that Perry lead Journey "into mediocrity" on ROR and TBF makes me wonder: what on earth did Schon lead Journey into after Perry left?

If 1986 and 1996 were "mediocre"...how would you describe 1998-2006? "Disastrous"? " "Humiliating"? "Soul-destroying"?

[Red13JoePa]

Er, dude Journey dropped Columbia if anything. They would've been perfectly happy to put out the next album after Arrival shifting anywhere between 150 and 300+ k depending on what counts you believe. Compared to what label spent promoting the record that was prosperous enough for them.
The band opted out of the album-by-album deal they said they were on since ROR.

[Matthew]

Er, dude Journey dropped Columbia if anything. They would've been perfectly happy to put out the next album after Arrival shifting anywhere between 150 and 300+ k depending on what counts you believe. Compared to what label spent promoting the record that was prosperous enough for them.
The band opted out of the album-by-album deal they said they were on since ROR.

And yet the most common excuse for the failure of Arrival was that...the record company showed no commitment to the band.

Okay - say it's true that Journey 'dropped' Columbia. Was that a sign of good leadership/management? Did Red 13 sell anywhere near 150,000-300,000?

[X factor]

No, what is moronic is you, or anybody else, saying they can form some kinda alternate timeline and predict how this and that would be if this and that changed. THAT is pure guesswork and has no basis in fact AT ALL. You have NO IDEA what would happen.

First that....

....and then this:

I doubt he would have let his band die at that time - Perry or no Perry. I think he would have done whatever it took to make Journey succeed.

Well - whether or not your alternative timeline is credible - the reality of what ACTUALLY happened is that:

a) Journey were about to be dropped by their label.

b) Perry joined

c) Journey became one of the biggest bands in America.

c) Perry left.

d) Journey got dropped by their label.


Your comment that Perry lead Journey "into mediocrity" on ROR and TBF makes me wonder: what on earth did Schon lead Journey into after Perry left?

If 1986 and 1996 were "mediocre"...how would you describe 1998-2006? "Disastrous"? " "Humiliating"? "Soul-destroying"?

Yep, if there's one thing I've learned about Matt in this brief span of time it's DON'T EVER QUESTION THE LEGITIMACY OF JOURNEY IN 1986!!!!
AM I right, dude?

[Red13JoePa]

Er, dude Journey dropped Columbia if anything. They would've been perfectly happy to put out the next album after Arrival shifting anywhere between 150 and 300+ k depending on what counts you believe. Compared to what label spent promoting the record that was prosperous enough for them.
The band opted out of the album-by-album deal they said they were on since ROR.

And yet the most common excuse for the failure of Arrival was that...the record company showed no commitment to the band.

Okay - say it's true that Journey 'dropped' Columbia. Was that a sign of good leadership/management? Did Red 13 sell anywhere near 150,000-300,000?

Columbia DIDN'T show a commitment to the band on Arrival. They put the record on shelves. That's it. TBF had TV/radio spots and print ads.


Arrival's 200k was done on the band's merit. And whatever pub Azoff Mgmt got them w/ DTV and the Today Show.

Red13's a totally different animal. that was self-distributed and they knew it wouldn't do Arrival #s. Good on them that they still found a way to get it on shelves.

[NealIsGod]

Monker, what makes you think that you have to point out what are opinions and what are facts? Everybody here is bright enough to figure it out themselves.

[Matthew]

Yep, if there's one thing I've learned about Matt in this brief span of time it's DON'T EVER QUESTION THE LEGITIMACY OF JOURNEY IN 1986!!!!
AM I right, dude?

So true...I'm chewing on the same old bone...day after day....and have I convinced a single person about the glory of the ROR era? No.

If I'm not careful I'll end up like Fyre...banging on and on about the same thing to an empty room....

[conversationpc]

If I'm not careful I'll end up like Fyre...banging on and on about the same thing to an empty room....

Now THAT is funny.

[Rockindeano]

Monker, what makes you think that you have to point out what are opinions and what are facts? Everybody here is bright enough to figure it out themselves.

Everyone?

Uh, have you read Abitamans or Moonbeams' work? Not quite Dartmouth and Yale. I would say 1st and 3rd grade.

[conversationpc]

Monker, what makes you think that you have to point out what are opinions and what are facts? Everybody here is bright enough to figure it out themselves.

Everyone?

Uh, have you read Abitamans or Moonbeams' work? Not quite Dartmouth and Yale. I would say 1st and 3rd grade.

Abitaman is an easy target, I'll give you that but why are you picking on Moon Beam so much lately?

[Liam]

Monker, what makes you think that you have to point out what are opinions and what are facts? Everybody here is bright enough to figure it out themselves.

Everyone?

Uh, have you read Abitamans or Moonbeams' work? Not quite Dartmouth and Yale. I would say 1st and 3rd grade.

Moon's just got her own dictionary that she goes by.

[Citygirl]

I definetely don't agree about Arrival being a crap album.

I play it nearly every day, it's a bloody good CD.

[Rockindeano]

Monker, what makes you think that you have to point out what are opinions and what are facts? Everybody here is bright enough to figure it out themselves.

Everyone?

Uh, have you read Abitamans or Moonbeams' work? Not quite Dartmouth and Yale. I would say 1st and 3rd grade.

Abitaman is an easy target, I'll give you that but why are you picking on Moon Beam so much lately?

Because I like her, er, him. That dude can flat out confuse a dick with a balloon. I don't get him sometimes.

[Monker]

Whatever you say, omnipotent one! How dare I question the great Monker. Listen...you have your opinions, and I have mine.

If you want to call it an 'opinion', fine...Alternate timelines and such are NOT fact, no matter how much you think they are.

Just like it can't be assumed that another lead singer couldn't have sung Journey's hits, it also can't be assumed that another singer would have had hits with the same songs (especially considering Perry had a hand in writing most of them, along with Cain).

What are you talking about? If Perry never entered Journey, much of their songs would have either never existed, or would have been different without Perry's influence. They would have had new and different songs. ROR may have actualy been a good album. There may have been other albums between ROR and TBF. Maybe we would have had another cool album cover for Frontiers, instead of Elmo. Maybe Gregg woudln't have left but instead would have stayed on for Escape...and it would have led to a totaly different album. Maybe there would have been some longevity, instead of it slowing dying after Perry started taking over Herbie's job.

The bottom line is, there would have been a LOT of things different...and that includes ALL of the songs that were written. You can't tell what would have been good, or bad, or who would have sounded better singing what - because you don't KNOW what would have happened.

[Monker]

a) Journey were about to be dropped by their label.

b) Perry joined

c) Journey became one of the biggest bands in America.

Yes...and if you think NOBODY else could have been put into Perry's shoes and made Journey a success, then I think you are underestimating the talent of the rest of the band, and how good of a manager Herbie was.

c) Perry left.

d) Journey got dropped by their label.

They dropped each other. Why would Journey want to be on a label who gives them so little attention? Even Kevin Shirley critiqued it.

Your comment that Perry lead Journey "into mediocrity" on ROR and TBF makes me wonder: what on earth did Schon lead Journey into after Perry left?

After Perry 'left' (if you want to call it that), Journey was in total disarray. They basicaly didn't exist. Neal and Jonathan had to take the Journey that Perry destroyed and remake it and rebuild it...and that is what they have been doing for the past 8yrs...without Perry in the band. He was replaced - whether you want to admit it or not.

If 1986 and 1996 were "mediocre"...how would you describe 1998-2006? "Disastrous"? " "Humiliating"? "Soul-destroying"?

Nostalgic.

[Monker]

Did Red 13 sell anywhere near 150,000-300,000?

Since the band gets almost ALL of the profits when they release it on their own - it doesn't have to sell as well. They probably made as much money on Red 13 as they did on Arrival.

Say it sells 15,000 copies at 10/each. That's $150,000.

IMO, Journey makes their money on touring now anyways...and that is why they don't put so much effort into releasing CD's.

[Monker]

Yep, if there's one thing I've learned about Matt in this brief span of time it's DON'T EVER QUESTION THE LEGITIMACY OF JOURNEY IN 1986!!!!
AM I right, dude?

At one time, even Neal said, "Even though that was the last incarnation of the band, it wasn't Journey..."

[Enigma869]

Yep, if there's one thing I've learned about Matt in this brief span of time it's DON'T EVER QUESTION THE LEGITIMACY OF JOURNEY IN 1986!!!!
AM I right, dude?

At one time, even Neal said, "Even though that was the last incarnation of the band, it wasn't Journey..."

And lord knows that Neal knows all! This is the same guy who has publically been critical of much of his band's own music over the years! Listen...I think Neal is a guitar god just like the next guy, but I take almost EVERYTHING the guy says with a HUGE grain of salt. I think Neal could best be described as someone who grudgingly agreed to play the guitar on many Journey songs that he wasn't overly thrilled with (even if they were enormous hits and made the guy rich)!

John from Boston

p.s. I'll at least give Neal some credit for saying Open Arms sucked (paraphrasing here). It's one of the few statements I've ever agreed with Neal on!

[RedWingFan]

Did Red 13 sell anywhere near 150,000-300,000?

Since the band gets almost ALL of the profits when they release it on their own - it doesn't have to sell as well. They probably made as much money on Red 13 as they did on Arrival.

Say it sells 15,000 copies at 10/each. That's $150,000.

Yeah that's true but taking the $$$$ over the sale numbers make them even less relevent than they are.

[Matthew]

Yes...and if you think NOBODY else could have been put into Perry's shoes and made Journey a success, then I think you are underestimating the talent of the rest of the band, and how good of a manager Herbie was.

Monker - at one time, even Neal Schon said: "Steve Perry brought success to the band." And we know how much you trust his take on all things Journey.

After Perry 'left' (if you want to call it that),

They dropped each other.

Neal and Jonathan had to take the Journey that Perry destroyed and remake it and rebuild it...

...in Perry's image.

He was replaced - whether you want to admit it or not.

I have no problem admitting that. My point was that Journey's recording career collapsed after Perry left. Just like it was about to do before he joined.

Would Herbie Herbert have found another singer in the late 1970s who could have saved Journey and taken them to the top? Well, we can speculate on that forever and get no closer to the answer.

The facts are that Journey had already had two singers who failed to connect with a big audience while Herbert was the manager. So I'd say it was incredibly LUCKY that Herbert happened to find the most extraordinary singer of his generation.

Who else could Herbert have hired who was anywhere near as gifted and charismatic as Perry? No-one. And that's why Herbert wasn't prepared to compromise or listen to the objections of the band. Perry was in and that was that.

Herbert - unlike you - could recognise just how special Perry was. He seized the opportunity to sign him up while others in the industry were too deaf, stupid or stoned to notice. It was the best decision Herbert ever made in his entire career.

And what about the other key decision in Journey's history? The decision to replace Perry? Well, Journey had another legendary manager at that time...Irving Azoff...plus a recording contract...a song on the soundtrack of a major Hollywood movie....a thriving back catalogue...a recent million-selling album and a hit single and a Grammy nomination. What a platform to build on!

But it all went to shit soon after Perry was replaced.

So I don't quite understand why you have such faith in the Journey management's ability to make Journey successful without Perry. Herbert couldn't do it in the 1970s. And Azoff failed twenty years later.

Nostalgic.

Okay - that was a good answer!

[Matthew]

ROR may have actualy been a good album.

There may have been other albums between ROR and TBF.

Nine albums weren't enough for you Monker?

Maybe we would have had another cool album cover for Frontiers, instead of Elmo.

Cool? I suppose you think flares and cheesecloth shirts are cool too. Come on...all that stuff with the scarabs and bird and planets was horribly dated in 1983.

Maybe Gregg woudln't have left but instead would have stayed on for Escape...and it would have led to a totaly different album.

Why would any sane Journey fan want Escape to be different?

Maybe there would have been some longevity

Didn't Journey do a 3Oth Anniversary tour last year? Isn't Journey's back catalogue one of the few 'evergreen' catalogues from that era?

And why are you so convinced that 1987 wasn't a good time for Journey to take an extended break? Every AOR band who were huge at the start of the 80s ran into enormous difficulties in the late 80s/early 90s.

Also - Perry was burnt out in 1987. Yes, it was frustrating and sad - but can we 'blame' someone for having a breakdown?

instead of it slowing dying after Perry started taking over Herbie's job.

In what year did Perry start to take over Herbie's job? Probably around 1980? Well, between 1980 and 1986 Journey sold nearly 20 million albums. Hardly what I'd call slow death...

[styxman]

Cool Post Dean just read it...way to go Euro basher

[Just Mindy]

Cool Post Dean just read it...way to go Euro basher

Hey, the Styxman's back! Been dreaming about you and burgers, babe

[styxman]

Cool Post Dean just read it...way to go Euro basher

Hey, the Styxman's back! Been dreaming about you and burgers, babe

So the burger made you wake up hungry and the part about me - I bet you woke up feelin' oh so horny, that's cool, we must eat soon honey