You're Journey's New Management Team....

[ohsherrie]

I understand what you're saying Fred, and I agree as it applies to the 2005 tour. As I remember it was the beginning of that tour when it became obvious that Augeri was in big trouble vocally. What some of us don't understand is why they booked the UK dates and agreed to the tour with DL when they had to know he wasn't getting better. I know a lot of people's incomes would have been adversly effected by them taking time off until the issue could be resolved, but it would have been a lot better course of action than the tapes.

It does make one wonder if some legal circumstances within the corporation made it necessary to handle it the way they did. Maybe it was the only way to get the necessary changes made.

And they're evidently still struggling with the legal resolution.

What she said!!!!!

It would have been easier for them to just pass on the Euro-tour, and the DL tour . And by that I mean; IF Steve A's voice needed more time to heal ( if it ever does/has/will!) then wouldn't it have made more sense to say "maybe next year" to all those offers? Instead of pushing things to where they ended up?

Unless, of course, that was the point to pushing things. That they really wanted SA gone- and used this as an excuse to get rid of him???? Not that we'll ever know, mind

Then thats where SA himself should have stepped in and said hey guys, my voice is shot, I need time off...where were his brains ?????

Somewhere under his ego?

[KCfla]

I understand what you're saying Fred, and I agree as it applies to the 2005 tour. As I remember it was the beginning of that tour when it became obvious that Augeri was in big trouble vocally. What some of us don't understand is why they booked the UK dates and agreed to the tour with DL when they had to know he wasn't getting better. I know a lot of people's incomes would have been adversly effected by them taking time off until the issue could be resolved, but it would have been a lot better course of action than the tapes.

It does make one wonder if some legal circumstances within the corporation made it necessary to handle it the way they did. Maybe it was the only way to get the necessary changes made.

And they're evidently still struggling with the legal resolution.

What she said!!!!!

It would have been easier for them to just pass on the Euro-tour, and the DL tour . And by that I mean; IF Steve A's voice needed more time to heal ( if it ever does/has/will!) then wouldn't it have made more sense to say "maybe next year" to all those offers? Instead of pushing things to where they ended up?

Unless, of course, that was the point to pushing things. That they really wanted SA gone- and used this as an excuse to get rid of him???? Not that we'll ever know, mind

Then thats where SA himself should have stepped in and said hey guys, my voice is shot, I need time off...where were his brains ?????

Somewhere under his ego?

She shoots- SHE SCORES!!!!!!
(sorry, couldn't resist- I'm in a silly mood today!)

I really can't say for sure G- Maybe he knew the "writing was on the wall" and wanted to hold on to the job as long as possible. That could also explain why the "announcement" is taking so long. He's holding on for all it's worth ( not that it's worth much at this point- even most of the "wigglers" all know he's toast )

[Marc S]

The more this one gets thown around, I can't help feeling that Neal or Jon (and whoever else in the set-up) wanted the tapes to be public knowledge, hence leak it to a fan who they know would run with it, as a blog.

They had collectively gotten into this mess with no real exit strategy; Augeri probably thought he could 'recover' as he had, once-upon-a-time in the late 90s, been able to sing the Dirty Doz with no problems, but the rest of the band knew he was deluding himself and got deeper into the quagmire.

They (Journey+management), however, couldn't blame it all on him as it patently wasn't his decision alone to go down the tape route - if they had sacked him he would have taken them all with him and done the maximum damage to Journey via the world's press. The ominous silence surely suggests that Augeri, rightly or wrongly is securing his financial future as I can't imagine he'll sing again as he will always be known as 'the bloke who mimed for Journey' and is something of a lame duck for any label/promotor?

[CatEyes]

It's been reported by two fans now that they were told the lyrics of the SoulSirkus track "Higher Ground" was written about members of Journey.

In either one of his online interviews, or a lengthy post at BT in the old SoulSirkus forum, JSS talked about this song too...... Said it was about when someone you admire not being what they seem (ok this quote is from my memory - so please do not shoot me.)

Would this mean that JSS was aware of it back then?

In re:producers

Even tho he has retired, JDK says that he would come back for something interesting. He said that crap today bores him. And he has worked previously with Journey, Kevin Elson, and Kevin Shirely.


Cat

[Deb]

Then thats where SA himself should have stepped in and said hey guys, my voice is shot, I need time off...where were his brains ?????

I agree, but yet.......Perry got crucified for that choice.

[fred_journeyman]

I understand what you're saying Fred, and I agree as it applies to the 2005 tour. As I remember it was the beginning of that tour when it became obvious that Augeri was in big trouble vocally. What some of us don't understand is why they booked the UK dates and agreed to the tour with DL when they had to know he wasn't getting better. I know a lot of people's incomes would have been adversly effected by them taking time off until the issue could be resolved, but it would have been a lot better course of action than the tapes.

With all due respect, Sherrie - you know I love you:) - canceling out of a tour at the "last moment" would have created untold havoc for thousands of people financially and under those conditions, the tapes would have been better (had they not been discovered), in my opinion.

It does make one wonder if some legal circumstances within the corporation made it necessary to handle it the way they did. Maybe it was the only way to get the necessary changes made.

In today's world of "I'll sue you if you look at me wrong" kind of thing, there are probably lots of legal wrangling that constantly goes on behind the scenes with things like this. It's never really cut and dry.

And they're evidently still struggling with the legal resolution.

Yep.

[fred_journeyman]

...Maybe management just couldn't pass up the chance for the DL tour and wanted to continue raking in the $$...

I honestly believe management has more to do with this than any one person in Journey.

[fred_journeyman]

Then thats where SA himself should have stepped in and said hey guys, my voice is shot, I need time off...where were his brains ?????

Easy to critique the guy, but you weren't standing in his shoes. Maybe he didn't feel like he had the power to "stop the freight train that was moving full speed ahead."

Either that, or SA really, truly is such a worm that he doesn't deserve a place on this earth...(sardonic)

[fred_journeyman]

The name of the SS song that's supposedly about you-know-who (yeah...ok) is actually HighEST Ground, not HighER Ground.

Sorry, bored at work. lol

Oh & if that's true, then WHO is the next line "I feel I've been here once before" about

lol

Yeah. Sometimes when you ask the musicians/songwriters what that particular song is about, they go "I have no idea." Didn't Neal say "I don't know" when asked what Wheel in the Sky is supposed to mean? Yet, TWO whole fans were told something, so dangit, it must be true. Sorry for the sarcasm, but that's a ridiculous scenario for me to accept.

[fred_journeyman]

The more this one gets thown around, I can't help feeling that Neal or Jon (and whoever else in the set-up) wanted the tapes to be public knowledge, hence leak it to a fan who they know would run with it, as a blog.

They had collectively gotten into this mess with no real exit strategy; Augeri probably thought he could 'recover' as he had, once-upon-a-time in the late 90s, been able to sing the Dirty Doz with no problems, but the rest of the band knew he was deluding himself and got deeper into the quagmire.

They (Journey+management), however, couldn't blame it all on him as it patently wasn't his decision alone to go down the tape route - if they had sacked him he would have taken them all with him and done the maximum damage to Journey via the world's press. The ominous silence surely suggests that Augeri, rightly or wrongly is securing his financial future as I can't imagine he'll sing again as he will always be known as 'the bloke who mimed for Journey' and is something of a lame duck for any label/promotor?

I tend to agree with you. What "if" management decided that the guys HAD to go with the tapes for whatever reason (pick one), but then Neal, Jon or whomever decided that they couldn't handle it anymore and went behind management's back to get the tapes out into the open? Since it seemed like it took Jon awhile to warm up to JSS, the finger points to Neal as the guy who would have leaked the tapes - IF THIS SCENARIO IS IN FACT THE WAY IT HAPPENED.

[SteveForever]

...Maybe management just couldn't pass up the chance for the DL tour and wanted to continue raking in the $$...

I honestly believe management has more to do with this than any one person in Journey.

Of course that's the case. If you are under contract to keep doing your job and they are telling you..."yes, you are doing your job, keep doing it" wouldn't you keep doing it for the pay and the adoration and whatever else comes along with being a rockstar? Watch "Before the Music Dies" and you will see how the singers are manipulated now; technically and every other way. Its getting real old hearing how its all Augeri's fault and he should have stepped down......he did what they obviously told him to do.

[SteveForever]

The more this one gets thown around, I can't help feeling that Neal or Jon (and whoever else in the set-up) wanted the tapes to be public knowledge, hence leak it to a fan who they know would run with it, as a blog.

They had collectively gotten into this mess with no real exit strategy; Augeri probably thought he could 'recover' as he had, once-upon-a-time in the late 90s, been able to sing the Dirty Doz with no problems, but the rest of the band knew he was deluding himself and got deeper into the quagmire.

They (Journey+management), however, couldn't blame it all on him as it patently wasn't his decision alone to go down the tape route - if they had sacked him he would have taken them all with him and done the maximum damage to Journey via the world's press. The ominous silence surely suggests that Augeri, rightly or wrongly is securing his financial future as I can't imagine he'll sing again as he will always be known as 'the bloke who mimed for Journey' and is something of a lame duck for any label/promotor?

I tend to agree with you. What "if" management decided that the guys HAD to go with the tapes for whatever reason (pick one), but then Neal, Jon or whomever decided that they couldn't handle it anymore and went behind management's back to get the tapes out into the open? Since it seemed like it took Jon awhile to warm up to JSS, the finger points to Neal as the guy who would have leaked the tapes - IF THIS SCENARIO IS IN FACT THE WAY IT HAPPENED.

Svante Pettersson is the one that broke the news supposedly, the tapes weren't leaked, unless HE also works for this cloak and dagger scenario!

[The_Noble_Cause]

Yet, TWO whole fans were told something, so dangit, it must be true.

Why not?
Just a few months ago there was less than a handful of fans on this forum who were aware of the lip syncing.
You, as if u need reminding, were not included in that prestigious lot, so I kindly suggest you shut your dicksucker.

[ohsherrie]

I understand what you're saying Fred, and I agree as it applies to the 2005 tour. As I remember it was the beginning of that tour when it became obvious that Augeri was in big trouble vocally. What some of us don't understand is why they booked the UK dates and agreed to the tour with DL when they had to know he wasn't getting better. I know a lot of people's incomes would have been adversly effected by them taking time off until the issue could be resolved, but it would have been a lot better course of action than the tapes.

With all due respect, Sherrie - you know I love you:) - canceling out of a tour at the "last moment" would have created untold havoc for thousands of people financially and under those conditions, the tapes would have been better (had they not been discovered), in my opinion.

Love you too Fred and I understand that they couldn't cancel anything already booked, I just don't understand continuing to book. Of course, it's not necessary that I understand, It's really none of my business. I just can't help wondering what the real story is.

[SF-Dano]

Then thats where SA himself should have stepped in and said hey guys, my voice is shot, I need time off...where were his brains ?????

I agree, but yet.......Perry got crucified for that choice.

The problem with Perry is he never communicated his ultimate intentions to the rest of the guys in the band. After ROR, he told them he was "toast", but never told them he was done for good or that he just wanted a year, two, three....or ten years off. After TBF, silence again, Perry tells them I have "hurt my hip", then nobody hears from him for a year or two. Jon and Neal are thinking wow deja-vu this seems like it has happened before. Time for them to make a decision, which they did. Not a popular descision to many fans I know.

[The_Noble_Cause]

Wow, Augeri really had a ton of power, didn't he? He made ALL the decisions. He told the guys what was going to be and when. He told them to jump and they asked, "how high boss?"

Nobody in this thread ever said that.

Did you ever consider that maybe this entire scenario was MANAGEMENT'S fault?

If you think Azoff Mngt. hasn't been routinely raked over the coals around here u simply haven't been paying attention.

There is no way (in my mind) that he would have been able to foist that decision upon the entire band all by himself. Sorry.

Go apologise to whoever it is that said that. It wasn't me. Nobody in this thread (besides you) is even arguing that Augeri is the Kingpin.

So, two fans now state that those lyrics are about Journey members, so it must be true? Whatever...

If you knew WHO those fans were and WHO told them, then yes, unequivocally on no uncertain terms it is THE TRUTH.

Uh...here's one for you...maybe it was management. Apparently, when it comes to Journey, Azoff is the all-powerful ONE.

Right back to square one.
Augeri must be an automaton completely devoid of free will.
Where does the buck stop?

[KCfla]

Yes, THAT is the question!

WHY DID THEY BOOK the damn tours in 2006, if they knew that SA couldn't cut it singing?

Were they greedy?

Were they forced?

Were they hopeful/deaf/stupid?

Were they using it as a way to oust SA?

That's the thing I have problems understanding. The whole of the chaos that's been unleashed this year would have never happened had they just NOT TOURED. Playing a bit of a devil's advocate- if they really DID want to get rid of SA- they could have done during the downtime. Leaving SA with his pride intact, and the bands reputation without blemish. Less messy all around.

There has got to be some "missing link/info" here that we're all just trying to figure out. Which, as I stated before, we'll probably never know.

Lost to all in the Bermuda triangle along with Hoffa, Blackbeard's treasure, and my Grandma's recipe for chicken pot pie!

[The_Noble_Cause]

Oh & if that's true, then WHO is the next line "I feel I've been here once before" about

You're kidding, right?
Take a big fat fucking guess.

Two Steves losing their vocal faculty and taking the band down with them along the way.

"i'm sick of wasting time with u,
i dont understand how i let u in-in the 1st place
i feel i've been here once before
i shoulda remembered losing my way, no way"

[Melissa]

The name of the SS song that's supposedly about you-know-who (yeah...ok) is actually HighEST Ground, not HighER Ground.

Sorry, bored at work. lol

Oh & if that's true, then WHO is the next line "I feel I've been here once before" about

lol

Yeah. Sometimes when you ask the musicians/songwriters what that particular song is about, they go "I have no idea." Didn't Neal say "I don't know" when asked what Wheel in the Sky is supposed to mean? Yet, TWO whole fans were told something, so dangit, it must be true. Sorry for the sarcasm, but that's a ridiculous scenario for me to accept.

I don't know what it is truly about, could be about many things actually if you know the lyrics, lol. I just find it hard to believe anyone in SS would say that it's about SA to anyone, let alone 2 "fans". What would be the point?

But stranger things have happened, so what the hell do I know, lol.

[The_Noble_Cause]

But stranger things have happened, so what the hell do I know, lol.

Precisely. Good girl.

[conversationpc]

Yet, TWO whole fans were told something, so dangit, it must be true.

Why not?
Just a few months ago there was less than a handful of fans on this forum who were aware of the lip syncing.
You, as if u need reminding, were not included in that prestigious lot, so I kindly suggest you shut your dicksucker.

Prestigious?

[Monker]

You also vehemently fought tooth and nail that the use of tapes was bunk.
So which is it?
In ur pained attempts to seem prophetic and all knowing, u drastically miscalulated and bet on the wrong horse.
[/qoute[

What I said, over and over again, and I will say again, is there is absolutely NO HARD EVIDENCE that it happened. All you have are opinions of bootlegs and Svante. That is IT. That isn't proof of anything. It's like Perry saying "Do you want to see the scar? on RADIO.

"Mr. Wall, it's the band's fault, not Augeri's..."

Nope, doesn't get very far.

I think many people have chimed in with similar comments.
Even I said all are culpable yet the bottom line rests with the vocalist and his craft.

The bottom line ends with the band performing as a whole and the decisions the BAND makes. The weight of those decisions do not land on ONE person.

[jrnyman28]

This has been a very good conversation and I want to thank Alien for returning to the boards. Allen, doesn't it suck to be able to point to one single event early in the Augeri-era that foretold the direction of their future? I have often pointed to the mishandling of Remember Me as the "first sign".

As for the tour cancellation ideas: it is painfully obvious to me why Journey did not cancel the UK tour. It was the first realistic opportunity they to tour Europe since they spurned the continent in 1981. There had been such a fan clamouring to tour the UK and finally there was a deal made. No way was the band going to pass up that opportunity. I imagine that the DL Tour talk may have started during the UK planning and the idea was fruitful. It would also be difficult to say "we need rest" when they were in the midst of planning the UK tour. Finally, $$ probably got the best of the decision making process.

[The_Noble_Cause]

The weight of those decisions do not land on ONE person.

Quite right. No, they do not.
However, a disproportionate amount of blame does fall on the person who's instrument is failing.
Any self respecting vocalist would not have gotten on that stage and lipped for an entire tour.
I don't care if Neal and Jon said "pwetty please with a cherry on top."

Get some ethics, douchebag.

[The_Noble_Cause]

As for the tour cancellation ideas: it is painfully obvious to me why Journey did not cancel the UK tour. It was the first realistic opportunity they to tour Europe since they spurned the continent in 1981. There had been such a fan clamouring to tour the UK and finally there was a deal made. No way was the band going to pass up that opportunity.

This is a great point.
I had forgotten how the Augeri-lineup had to gradually rebuild foreign promoters trust.

[Monker]

The weight of those decisions do not land on ONE person.

Quite right. No, they do not.
However, a disproportionate amount of blame does fall on the person who's instrument is failing.
Any self respecting vocalist would not have gotten on that stage and lipped for an entire tour.
I don't care if Neal and Jon said "pwetty please with a cherry on top."

Get some ethics, douchebag.

...and YOU fail to recognize that it was the entire JOURNEY ORGANIZATION that was failing...not just Augeri.

When Augeri leaves, and JSS replaces him....the PROBLEM is not corrected. IMO, that is what Allen has been saying in this thread, and what I agree with and have been trying to say here for a very long time.

[SF-Dano]

The weight of those decisions do not land on ONE person.

Quite right. No, they do not.
However, a disproportionate amount of blame does fall on the person who's instrument is failing.
Any self respecting vocalist would not have gotten on that stage and lipped for an entire tour.
I don't care if Neal and Jon said "pwetty please with a cherry on top."

Get some ethics, douchebag.

...and YOU fail to recognize that it was the entire JOURNEY ORGANIZATION that was failing...not just Augeri.

When Augeri leaves, and JSS replaces him....the PROBLEM is not corrected. IMO, that is what Allen has been saying in this thread, and what I agree with and have been trying to say here for a very long time.

And what exactly is the "PROBLEM", in your opinion?

[Melissa]

But stranger things have happened, so what the hell do I know, lol.

Precisely. Good girl.

Gee thanks, lol.

[The_Noble_Cause]

All you have are opinions of bootlegs and Svante. That is IT. That isn't proof of anything.

Excellent point.
I have argued fervently in a similar manner over the great Swiss cheese debate.
Can any of us say we any degree of certainty that the moon isn't really made out of cheese?
I know I saw the landing on TV, but I wasn't there myself, nor did I try to take a bite out of it's lunar surface.
All we really have are a bunch of opinions from some pencil-necked know-it-alls at NASA.
Until I am personally on the moon, I must say this remains an open case for me.

Likewise, I have lingering doubts about that quack Issac Newton.
He says gravity exists and is all around us, but if that is true, how come I don't see it?

Oh, and don't even get me started on that no-good piece of human excrement Galileo.....

[The_Noble_Cause]

When Augeri leaves, and JSS replaces him....the PROBLEM is not corrected.

That remains to be seen.
Jeff is pretty dynamic as a solo artist.
His website puts Journey's to shame.
I don't think he will be content making the yearly rounds to the corn-dog and cotton candy circuit.

He will attempt to rattle the cages and shake shit up.