OT: The sad state of rock...

[conversationpc]

Anyone knows if the album can be found on CD?I would buy it just for that song alone...I still have it in the back of my mind,now that I remembered it.
Beautiful song indeed.

I have it on CD but can't remember for sure where I got it but I think it was probably on Ebay.

[*Laura]

Anyone knows if the album can be found on CD?I would buy it just for that song alone...I still have it in the back of my mind,now that I remembered it.
Beautiful song indeed.

I have it on CD but can't remember for sure where I got it but I think it was probably on Ebay.

Oh,that figures...I guess it's only available if people sell them...

I can't believe I actually found "I Want You" on YouTube!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImRY3iHsZr0

I think I have to find that cassette NOW!
I miss this good music...

[Red13JoePa]

I saw a recent interview where Gramm, who seems to be suffering slight paranoia, said Mick Jones (along with I THINK Ahmet Ertugen) was partially behind the bombing of Shadow King.


In reality I think that was just a bad musical climate to release that.

[NoMoreTails]

I saw a recent interview where Gramm, who seems to be suffering slight paranoia, said Mick Jones (along with I THINK Ahmet Ertugen) was partially behind the bombing of Shadow King.


In reality I think that was just a bad musical climate to release that.

Seems to me that Viv has said somewhere that he never saw it as a continuing band...or if he did, that changed in the studio early on.I think Lou's mistrust of Mick stems from Jones being a bit of a control freak/perfectionist..sounds like a singer we know. Did Lou talk about why he is out of Foreigner now? Did Mick give him the boot?
I'd like to hear more of Neal and Jeff's thoughts on Journey/management undermining SS.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I don't know if Akron still has them. It's been a long time since I've been to one there. They were always fun - lots of memories. Gad. I saw Kansas there - they were HORRID. Simply HORRID.

Was their sound bad or what? They're my second favorite band next to Journey and I've seen them 7 or 8 times and they've been awesome each time. They are consummate musicians on the level of Journey and I can't imagine them ever performing terribly. Certainly Steve Walsh's voice isn't what it used to be but as musicians, there are not many bands their equal.

Sound was bad. Very bad. You can't get much worse unless you're lip synching. It was truly embarrassing. The sound was thinner than my hairline. It sounded like they were playing through tin cans connected to the board with twine.

Then there was the problem of being indulgent. If the sound is good I can overlook indulgence but - well, there you go. They pranced around on stage playing extended versions. Overall, their music is much bigger than the venue could project. They probably would've come over better had they done a more acoustic-type set.

[*Laura]

I saw a recent interview where Gramm, who seems to be suffering slight paranoia, said Mick Jones (along with I THINK Ahmet Ertugen) was partially behind the bombing of Shadow King.


In reality I think that was just a bad musical climate to release that.

I was curious to find out what happened,so I stumbled on an interview that our very own Wombat has done with Bruce Turgon,Lou Gramm's musical partner.
His point of view on Shadow King's death is echoing what you've said,the climate not being right,among other things...

An interesting read.

http://www.melodicrock.com/interviews/bruceturgon.html

[conversationpc]

Sound was bad. Very bad. You can't get much worse unless you're lip synching. It was truly embarrassing. The sound was thinner than my hairline. It sounded like they were playing through tin cans connected to the board with twine.

Hmmm...I'll have to chalk that up to one bad day. I subscribe to the Kansas mailing list and those people go to a ton of Kansas shows and I'm positive they would announce it to the entire list if this were a continuing or common problem.

Then there was the problem of being indulgent. If the sound is good I can overlook indulgence but - well, there you go. They pranced around on stage playing extended versions. Overall, their music is much bigger than the venue could project. They probably would've come over better had they done a more acoustic-type set.

I can hardly imagine any of the Kansas members "prancing" around on stage. I'd also be willing to bet that the versions of whatever songs they played weren't extended for the most part, but rather, shortened versions. Of course, the shortend version of a Kansas tune is still likelly to be 1.5 to 2 times longer than most band's full versions of their own tunes. The tours they've been on over the last decade or so don't usually allow them a long enough set to play full versions of songs like "Song for America", "Miracles Out of Nowhere", "Cheyenne Anthem", etc.

[Red13JoePa]

Did Lou talk about why he is out of Foreigner now? Did Mick give him the boot?
I'd like to hear more of Neal and Jeff's thoughts on Journey/management undermining SS.

Lou quit.

The last straw according to both was a writing session in Europe in 2002 that turned into a big dustup when Jones tried to change some lyrics Lou had written.

EXTREMELY silly, all-in-all but Lou took MAJOR umbrage b/c he said it was the first lyrics he'd been able to write since his brain suregery.

[Matthew]

I really liked Shadow King at the time but it doesn't do as much for me now while I like Riverdogs as much as ever.
They're very different, as Shadow King was like Foreigner with a much better lead guitarist. Mick Jones had his strong points but playing lead wasn't the strongest of them. Riverdogs on the other hand was an album of (almost) folk songs injected with a dose of crunching guitar and great leads.

Who was the vocalist on the Riverdogs album?

Rob Lamothe. Andrew has provided news on his solo work and appearances on occasion. I believe Riverdogs continued with Campbell for a bit after he joined DL.

Seen this NMT? It's a mini-documentary/promo on Riverdogs......

Part One

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFa30h6LoIA&NR=1

Part Two

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbLNO86Z-kY

[Matthew]

Did Lou talk about why he is out of Foreigner now? Did Mick give him the boot?
I'd like to hear more of Neal and Jeff's thoughts on Journey/management undermining SS.

Lou quit.

The last straw according to both was a writing session in Europe in 2002 that turned into a big dustup when Jones tried to change some lyrics Lou had written.

EXTREMELY silly, all-in-all but Lou took MAJOR umbrage b/c he said it was the first lyrics he'd been able to write since his brain suregery.

Great story, Red.I think this kind of dispute was what Strangegrey was complaining about in his opening post. I love it though.


Hey Dave - did you know that Gramm is recording a Christian rock album?

[NoMoreTails]

Seen this NMT? It's a mini-documentary/promo on Riverdogs......

Part One

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFa30h6LoIA&NR=1

Part Two

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbLNO86Z-kY

Thanks for posting this, I haven't seen it and will have to wait til I get home as youtube is blocked at work...
Thanks.

[conversationpc]

Hey Dave - did you know that Gramm is recording a Christian rock album?

I had heard that he was interested in doing so. He became a Christian not too long before being diagnosed with the brain tumor. He also did some guest lead vocals on Petra's "We Need Jesus", which was a fairly big CCM hit back in '96 or '97, I believe.

[Red13JoePa]

Did Lou talk about why he is out of Foreigner now? Did Mick give him the boot?
I'd like to hear more of Neal and Jeff's thoughts on Journey/management undermining SS.

Lou quit.

The last straw according to both was a writing session in Europe in 2002 that turned into a big dustup when Jones tried to change some lyrics Lou had written.

EXTREMELY silly, all-in-all but Lou took MAJOR umbrage b/c he said it was the first lyrics he'd been able to write since his brain suregery.

Great story, Red.I think this kind of dispute was what Strangegrey was complaining about in his opening post. I love it though.

Yea, good shit...apparently there was yelling, kicking of wires and amps and smashing of guitars.

Sounds like a band that was ONTO something, actually.

[strangegrey]

I think this kind of dispute was what Strangegrey was complaining about in his opening post. I love it though.

Exactimundo!!!!

This kind of crap seems to permeate this musical genre. People can claim unrest between artists in other genres, but *not* on this scale.

There isn't a single genre-leading AOR/Hard Rock act out there that has remained fully intact....but you see other genre's that have their bands still together. Examples include Foreigner, Styx, Van Halen, Journey, Survivor....Someone might make a case for Bon Jovi and the Sheffield Douchenozzles....but in both cases, they're not fully together EITHER...granted Death played a part in the Douchenozzles.

But look at other genres, they seem to look past their petty differences and get on with it. Sure there are bands that fall apart...but the really sucessful ones seem to realize that they're better off together than apart.


Look at hall of fame inductions...most bands that get inducted view it as an honor and at least go to the induction ceremony as a group and play a few numbers....and look past the bullshit. Thankfully EVH went into rehab, because had he not...the band would not have burried the past and gotten onstage together...and that's the truth....they would have been fighting right on up to the fucking podium. EVH's rehab stint was aptly timed....granted, I think he's going to last 2-3 months tops before going back to sucking the glass dick and looking like the crypt keeper....but I'd love to eat my words there.

-F

[Red13JoePa]

EVH's rehab stint was aptly timed....granted, I think he's going to last 2-3 months tops before going back to sucking the glass dick and looking like the crypt keeper....but I'd love to eat my words there.

-F

Sorry to say I happen to agree.
Odds are definately not in Edward's favor. HE, like all celebs, have an advantage over other alcoholics in that he can afford (if he were smart) to hire an adult babysitter who's job is STRICTLY to keep him off the sauce 24-hrs-a-day until his services aren't needed anymore.

[strangegrey]

Yeah, like when he's finally sick of staying dry and needs to go to the corner store for some sterno to mix in his morning apple juice....

[conversationpc]

There isn't a single genre-leading AOR/Hard Rock act out there that has remained fully intact....but you see other genre's that have their bands still together. Examples include Foreigner, Styx, Van Halen, Journey, Survivor....Someone might make a case for Bon Jovi and the Sheffield Douchenozzles....but in both cases, they're not fully together EITHER...granted Death played a part in the Douchenozzles.

I know you hate Rush but even though Peart is not their original drummer, he has been with the band since the second album and the lineup has remained unchanged for the last 32 years now. For that matter, most Rush fans don't even count John Rutsey as a full band member but more of a fill-in until Peart joined before "Fly By Night".

Also, ZZ Top has had the same lineup through the entire history of the band, not to mention that they even had the same manager up until 2006.

[CatEyes]

EVH's rehab stint was aptly timed....granted, I think he's going to last 2-3 months tops before going back to sucking the glass dick and looking like the crypt keeper....but I'd love to eat my words there.

-F

Sorry to say I happen to agree.
Odds are definately not in Edward's favor. HE, like all celebs, have an advantage over other alcoholics in that he can afford (if he were smart) to hire an adult babysitter who's job is STRICTLY to keep him off the sauce 24-hrs-a-day until his services aren't needed anymore.

I always had the impression that many people were hoping Wolfie would fill this role.

If that is true, I am very happy that calmer heads prevailed and finally realized that this is no job for a kid.

It seems that Wolfie realized it, however, he kept trying to keep everyone happy - which is typical for a child of an alcoholic.

At least that is what the voices tell me.

Cat

[Andrew]

I saw a recent interview where Gramm, who seems to be suffering slight paranoia, said Mick Jones (along with I THINK Ahmet Ertugen) was partially behind the bombing of Shadow King.


In reality I think that was just a bad musical climate to release that.

Bruce Turgon addressed that in my interview with him: http://www.melodicrock.com/interviews/bruceturgon.html

[ForceInfinity]

Hey folks, I've been absent from forum life for a while...impending finals, grad school aps, job hunting and a litany of odd-job, around the house BS that the wife has thrust on me has really prevented me from having a life...at all.

Hell, in the past 6 months or so, we read:

* This recent bullshit with Ratt
* Similar bullshit with Naked Beggars
* More GnR crap (is there ever *not* GnR crap?)
* Jeff Watson quits/gets fired from Night Ranger
* TNT loses a singer
* EVH goes into rehab, reunion scrapped...yet STILL has a need to oneup sammy with this NASCAR horsecrap...
* Rumors of Mik Brown leaving Dokken (it's not really Dokken at this point ANYWAY!)
* Vito vs Mike Tramp soap Opera crap...
* Survivor changes singers AGAIN.
* Bon Jovi's broken up, Bon Jovi's back together again....Bon Jovi goes COUNTRY!?!? WTF?!
* and of course, Journey goes through ANOTHER singer change.

Thoughts?

You forgot about Asia and the fact that John Payne got sacked and they brought back John Wetton, Carl Palmer and Steve Howe.

<<
There isn't a single genre-leading AOR/Hard Rock act out there that has remained fully intact....but you see other genre's that have their bands still together. Examples include Foreigner, Styx, Van Halen, Journey, Survivor....Someone might make a case for Bon Jovi and the Sheffield Douchenozzles....but in both cases, they're not fully together EITHER...granted Death played a part in the Douchenozzles.

But look at other genres, they seem to look past their petty differences and get on with it. Sure there are bands that fall apart...but the really sucessful ones seem to realize that they're better off together than apart.


Look at hall of fame inductions...most bands that get inducted view it as an honor and at least go to the induction ceremony as a group and play a few numbers....and look past the bullshit. Thankfully EVH went into rehab, because had he not...the band would not have burried the past and gotten onstage together...and that's the truth....they would have been fighting right on up to the fucking podium. EVH's rehab stint was aptly timed....granted, I think he's going to last 2-3 months tops before going back to sucking the glass dick and looking like the crypt keeper....but I'd love to eat my words there.
>>

Actually U2 is the same band as what I remember them when they first debuted. But to your point, that is more the exception than the rule. It does seem like most every other band has a soap opera of some sort going on....

[Red13JoePa]

I saw a recent interview where Gramm, who seems to be suffering slight paranoia, said Mick Jones (along with I THINK Ahmet Ertugen) was partially behind the bombing of Shadow King.


In reality I think that was just a bad musical climate to release that.

Bruce Turgon addressed that in my interview with him: http://www.melodicrock.com/interviews/bruceturgon.html

Right now at this point, and having read the ClassicRock Mag interviews with both Mick and Lou, it seems as though Lou is tough to work with.

el 'bato you DO have a Mick interview coming up at some point don't you?

[conversationpc]

Right now at this point, and having read the ClassicRock Mag interviews with both Mick and Lou, it seems as though Lou is tough to work with.

Hmmm...I've always gotten the impression that Mick was the tougher of the two to work with.

[Red13JoePa]

I thought so, too, Dave until recently.
Just seems to me (strictly outsider perspective, mind you) like once the tumor became an issue Mick really worked with Lou and tried to make things as comfortable and easy as possible for Lou to continue on.
I recall vividly the Behind The Music where at the end they were sitting there together and Mick reached over and put his arm around Lou. Maybe Mick who's always had a terrific business and pr accumen was just fronting for the cameras but that seemed pretty sincere to me.

[conversationpc]

I thought so, too, Dave until recently.
Just seems to me (strictly outsider perspective, mind you) like once the tumor became an issue Mick really worked with Lou and tried to make things as comfortable and easy as possible for Lou to continue on.
I recall vividly the Behind The Music where at the end they were sitting there together and Mick reached over and put his arm around Lou. Maybe Mick who's always had a terrific business and pr accumen was just fronting for the cameras but that seemed pretty sincere to me.

I've always been kinda disappointed that they didn't put another album out.

I saw them during the summer of '98 when Lou was still struggling to recover from his surgery. It was in a rather famous bar in Ft. Wayne, Indiana, and the temperature in the place was probably in the mid 90s. Imagine a smoke-filled bar with sweltering temperatures. Lou was still in pretty bad shape, actually, and had to take a hit from an oxygen tank a couple of times during the show. He really should've still been at home, in my opinion. He soldiered on, though, and the show wasn't awfully terrible, for the most part. I'm not sure, but I think it was his wife that stood in the sound-control booth area to the right of the stage, which is where we were seated. She looked about what I pictured her looking like and she kept a close eye on Lou the entire time. The roadies also let this other woman into that area and about a third of the way through the show, she pulled her top off, exposing her boobies for Bruce Turgon to see, since he was on that side of the stage. She was immediately escorted backstage by one of the roadies...Hmm....

Anyway, during that show, they announced they were recording a new album and it should be out by the next year. I saw Foreigner again the next year opening for Journey and they again stated they were working on a new album. I kept hearing that all the way up until 2002, so I guess the little spat between Gramm and Jones is what caused that album to never happen.

[Red13JoePa]

Yep, I saw them on the '02 tour as well, kicked ASS actually. Single loudest concert I've ever witnessed. And right before the left the stage Lou said "thank you, new album in the springtime!"

BTW, was lucky enough to meet both Mick and Lou after the show both were complete gentlemen.

[conversationpc]

Yep, I saw them on the '02 tour as well, kicked ASS actually. Single loudest concert I've ever witnessed. And right before the left the stage Lou said "thank you, new album in the springtime!"

BTW, was lucky enough to meet both Mick and Lou after the show both were complete gentlemen.

Cool. That's good to hear. I don't typically really want to meet any of the members of my favorite bands but Lou is right up there with Perry for me and I've always wanted to meet him.

[Red13JoePa]

Yep, I saw them on the '02 tour as well, kicked ASS actually. Single loudest concert I've ever witnessed. And right before the left the stage Lou said "thank you, new album in the springtime!"

BTW, was lucky enough to meet both Mick and Lou after the show both were complete gentlemen.

Cool. That's good to hear. I don't typically reallly want to meet any of the members of my favorite bands but Lou is right up there with Perry for me and I've always wanted to meet him.

Lou was actually picking up peoples' kids without prompting and holding them up for pictures. Mick was just as nice.

[NealIsGod]

Lou was actually picking up peoples' kids without prompting and holding them up for pictures.

So he's the opposite of Perry?

[strangegrey]

There isn't a single genre-leading AOR/Hard Rock act out there that has remained fully intact....but you see other genre's that have their bands still together. Examples include Foreigner, Styx, Van Halen, Journey, Survivor....Someone might make a case for Bon Jovi and the Sheffield Douchenozzles....but in both cases, they're not fully together EITHER...granted Death played a part in the Douchenozzles.

I know you hate Rush but even though Peart is not their original drummer, he has been with the band since the second album and the lineup has remained unchanged for the last 32 years now. For that matter, most Rush fans don't even count John Rutsey as a full band member but more of a fill-in until Peart joined before "Fly By Night".

Also, ZZ Top has had the same lineup through the entire history of the band, not to mention that they even had the same manager up until 2006.

Eh, I don't hate rush...I just like to sound off like I do!

Actually, the friend I spoke of in a previous post...the rush fan. He became a Rush fan sometime after Presto. Prior to that point, I had seen 2-3 rush shows dating back to whatever album has Big Money on it....and whenever we get into arguments I always say "Just remember, I tried to get you into Rush back in the mid 80s and you were too pig headed...I was a rush fan first".

In all seriousness, I've just soured on most progressive music, be it prog metal or prog rock. To me, the focus in prog music seems to be the individual, not the song...Rush tends to be a bit of an exception to that rule....but almost all other prog acts seem to focus on creating music to showcase their talent...and the importance of the song tends to take a mother-in-law style back seat.


As for u2, ZZ Top and Rush...I will submit that they are not part of this AOR/Hard Rock/Hair Rock Genre. Journey is almost not part of the genre as well. u2 doesn't belong in this discussion at all, since I consider them more to come out of the brit/pop new wave genre....something I would have performed mass-genocide to get rid of in the mid 80s, if I could!

ZZ Top and Rush have two advantages...they're 3 pieces. You only have to worry about getting along with 2 other personalities. Not 4 other personalities...granted 1 steve perry type personality is more than enough for any group...but it makes it easier to swallow the bad shit and see the good.


I still stand by the original statement, that once you get into the hair/aor/hard rock genre, very few acts have stayed together without either serious professional intervention or a shitload of cash to sweaten the deal. Either this music breeds this kind of disharmony....or it's just filled with assholes...

I dunno.

It's depressing to watch it play out....at times I step away from AOR/hard rock for that one reason. I can't stomach the fact that the music I grew up on, could easily be a well-respected musical genre that carries alot of weight in today's music scene in the US.....if only bands could stay together. Instead, it's a punchline.


And I mean that, imagine if Van Halen, Journey, Styx, Foreigner, etc....imagine if they all stayed completely intact...and toured hard throughout the late 90s....while the last remaining slugs of Alternative music were busy shooting themselves in the head or dying of smack ODs.....today, this music would similar to what the Who or The Rolling Stones were in the late 80s. They would be touring huge stadium tours or at the very least arena tours, taking in money...major label releases of albums. I know someone will go 'yeah, right, bullshit'....but think about it. you're being skeptical because of the fact that you're viewing it in today's reality. If these acts stayed together, they would have reached a much higher arc...and quite possibly remained there....

Instead, most of these acts are fractured, beyond repair...and are playing state fairs, private functions, japan , or doing vh1-classic unplugged tours....It's a sad state for what could have been.

[Red13JoePa]

if Van Halen, Journey, Styx, Foreigner, etc....imagine if they all stayed completely intact...and toured hard throughout the late 90s....while the last remaining slugs of Alternative music were busy shooting themselves in the head or dying of smack ODs.....today, this music would similar to what the Who or The Rolling Stones were in the 80s. They would be touring huge stadium tours or at the very least arena tours, taking in money...major label releases of albums. I know someone will go 'yeah, right, bullshit'....but think about it. you're being skeptical because of the fact that you're viewing it in today's reality. If these acts stayed together, they would have reached a much higher arc...and quite possibly remained there....

You better believe it. VH is arguably still there as a matter of fact.