OT: New Movie Concern for Parents - The Golden Compass

[ohsherrie]

Not true at all and you'd be surprised how much of so-called discoveries that "prove" evolution were dependent on evolutionary-based theories in the first place, which is kinda like using evolution to prove itself. Like I said, there is evidence for creation there, you just have to be willing to look at it.

I've read and listened to a lot of it and I haven't read or heard anything yet that didn't sound like creationists reaching to extremes to scientifically justify their beliefs.

Evolution will still never be able to answer how life originated because it cannot answer how the first matter came into existence in the first place. Did it create itself or has it always existed. If it's always existed then it violates the laws of thermodynamics. If it created itself, then it would have some pretty unexplainable qualities, wouldn't it? Qualities that could only be attributable to a deity.

I agree. That's why I believe in a higher power. I don't believe the essence of life, the spirit or soul of a being, what makes our brain send signal to our organs to function, could have evolved from matter.

I just don't necessarily think the Christian story of the garden of Eden and Adam and Eve explain it. I think the people who contrived that story explained it the only way they could during that innocent and ignorant time in the history of the world. That just isn't enough to make it factually accurate to me.

Even though your truth is the only truth to you, it isn't the only truth to others.

Exactly. Thanks.

But Dave, the truth of evolution is the only one that isn't religiously influenced.

[tj]

I watched the Kiss movie with my daughter. It was hilarious.

Good comic relief from what I've seen. Probably worse than most b-movies.

Talking about bad b-rated movies. Have any of you ever seen Redneck Zombies?

Nope...Sounds like a reality show, though.

You're describing my extended family.

[Greg]

I watched the Kiss movie with my daughter. It was hilarious.

Good comic relief from what I've seen. Probably worse than most b-movies.

Talking about bad b-rated movies. Have any of you ever seen Redneck Zombies?

Nope...Sounds like a reality show, though.

You're describing my extended family.

[conversationpc]

But Dave, the truth of evolution is the only one that isn't religiously influenced.

Oh, I definitely wouldn't say that. Many people who don't want to believe in God want evolution to be true with every fiber of their being. They place as much or more "faith" in it as those they claim worship a non-existent God.

[Blondie]

I went to Catholic School and took classes in many religions - I would love for my kids to learn about other religions and even "non-religions" as well as alternative theories. There is absolutely no way to lose when there is information and learning involved, only when conclusions are made without it. School should be the place for stimulating thought and debate. Discussion doesn't mean convincing or forcing an opinion. I believe in letting one make their own decisions, but only after being informed. (Very young children excluded).

[conversationpc]

I went to Catholic School and took classes in many religions - I would love for my kids to learn about other religions and even "non-religions" as well as alternative theories. There is absolutely no way to lose when there is information and learning involved, only when conclusions are made without it. School should be the place for stimulating thought and debate. Discussion doesn't mean convincing or forcing an opinion. I believe in letting one make their own decisions, but only after being informed. (Very young children excluded).

Exactly my point. I can also see a place for a comparative religions type of class.

[Blondie]

By the way, Darwin was a Creationist...

[conversationpc]

By the way, Darwin was a Creationist...

I'm not sure he was a Creationist but he probably fit into the crowd for those who believe God created the world but that he also set the evolutionary process in motion. Of course, you wouldn't know that from what is being taught in school these days.

[Higgy]

I went to Catholic School and took classes in many religions - I would love for my kids to learn about other religions and even "non-religions" as well as alternative theories. There is absolutely no way to lose when there is information and learning involved, only when conclusions are made without it. School should be the place for stimulating thought and debate. Discussion doesn't mean convincing or forcing an opinion. I believe in letting one make their own decisions, but only after being informed. (Very young children excluded).

Teaching creation in science classes - even "just to let kids know that there are 'competing theories' " is tantamount to also teaching that there is a view that the Earth is at the center of the universe (a belief held by some current religions). At some point you have to teach SCIENCE in science class.

What scares me is that the majority of people who are so against "evolution" (and how absurd is it to be 'against' a physical law of the universe?) is that they always have a misinformed view of how natural selection works. Some believe that evolution means that we "evolved from chimpanzees" or that when we use certain features, those features evolve (use & disuse - an 18th century concept). They don't see that evolution means that we have physical adaptations which cater to the environment we live in - giraffes with longer necks out competed giraffes with shorter necks because the food was higher in the trees.

If you ask most of the zealots who are "sure" that evolution is a lie if they think that species have physical adaptations, they will probably agree with you (as they should, its a proven fact). Well guess what - THAT IS EVOLUTION! Take that to its logical conclusion and see that if the environment continues to change in some areas, the species living in those areas of change, will continue to adapt and a NEW species is born.

I LOVE the question "if there is evolution, why are there still apes?". This bellies a serious misunderstanding which is THE REASON you HAVE to teach evolution in schools. YOU CANNOT BE AGAINST SOMETHING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!

Look at evolution and you will find that it can actually reaffirm a religious faith - it all works pretty perfectly and to me FAVORS the existence of God rather than questions is.

No matter how much we might want the Earth to be 6000 years old so it fits nicely in the old testament - it just isn't true. If you want to believe it is - fine - just don't inflict that view OR THE VIEW THAT IT IS A VALID SCIENTIFIC THEORY to children.

[conversationpc]

Teaching creation in science classes - even "just to let kids know that there are 'competing theories' " is tantamount to also teaching that there is a view that the Earth is at the center of the universe (a belief held by some current religions).

That's a really uninformed statement. Teaching solely evolution is tantamount to saying that there are no problems with evolutionary theory, which is FAR from the truth. To not allow alternatives to even be mentioned is the height of hypocrisy.

[Higgy]

Teaching creation in science classes - even "just to let kids know that there are 'competing theories' " is tantamount to also teaching that there is a view that the Earth is at the center of the universe (a belief held by some current religions).

That's a really uninformed statement. Teaching solely evolution is tantamount to saying that there are no problems with evolutionary theory, which is FAR from the truth. To not allow alternatives to even be mentioned is the height of hypocrisy.

Scientific alternatives - yes

Religious based creation stories - no

Trouble deciding which is which? If there is SCIENTIFIC evidence then it belongs in the first category. If its only evidence is the "word of God" then the second.

and PLEASE give me the all those problems with evolutionary theory.

[conversationpc]

and PLEASE give me the all those problems with evolutionary theory.

How does evolution account for matter existing in the first place?

How does evolution account for the complexity of even the tiniest cells? Originally, according to evolutionary theory, the smaller the cell, the simpler the structure must be. We are finding now that this is untrue. Even the smallest cells are extremely complex, made up of tiny "machines" or structures that assist the cell in carrying out its purpose.

Also, here's a good quote from a pro-evolution web site...

Many theories are works in progress, and evolution is one of them. There are several big questions that the theory of evolution cannot answer right now. This is not unusual. Newtonian physics worked really well for hundreds of years, and it still works well today for many types of problems. However, it does not explain lots of things that were eventually answered by Einstein and his theories of relativity. People create new theories and modify existing ones to explain the unexplained.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/evolution8.htm

In other words, the theory of evolution is not the cold, hard fact that some people present it to be. We also need to define terms. Micro-evolution is obviously observable fact. Macro-evolution is not.

[ohsherrie]

There is really no point in discussing this any further. Those of you who think Adam and Eve were conjured by magic are going to believe that despite any evidence to the contrary because you're afraid the Devil will reach up from underground and snatch you into Hell if don't.

You're free to believe that though if it makes you happy. Just don't try to force it into the minds of all of our children by teaching it in public school.

I'm through with this.

[RedWingFan]

and PLEASE give me the all those problems with evolutionary theory.

How does evolution account for matter existing in the first place?

How does evolution account for the complexity of even the tiniest cells? Originally, according to evolutionary theory, the smaller the cell, the simpler the structure must be. We are finding now that this is untrue. Even the smallest cells are extremely complex, made up of tiny "machines" or structures that assist the cell in carrying out its purpose.

Didn't Darwin say that if this were the case then his theory would be wrong? Can't remember where I read that.
Funny how when you ask how an eye evolved, an evolutionist will usually say, "well it probably started with a group of light sensitive cells". Nevermind where these light sensitive cells came from. I used to argue with my big brother who was a "creationist" long before I was. I do think some micro-evolution occurs. But humans did not evolve from apes, or crawl out of the sludge.

[RedWingFan]

There is really no point in discussing this any further. Those of you who think Adam and Eve were conjured by magic are going to believe that despite any evidence to the contrary because you're afraid the Devil will reach up from underground and snatch you into Hell if don't.

You're free to believe that though if it makes you happy. Just don't try to force it into the minds of all of our children by teaching it in public school.

I'm through with this.

I understand your feelings. We feel the same way as we're forced to fund schools that force it into our kids minds that they evolved from red-assed baboons. Can you understand that?

[Rick]

There is really no point in discussing this any further. Those of you who think Adam and Eve were conjured by magic are going to believe that despite any evidence to the contrary because you're afraid the Devil will reach up from underground and snatch you into Hell if don't.

You're free to believe that though if it makes you happy. Just don't try to force it into the minds of all of our children by teaching it in public school.

I'm through with this.

I understand your feelings. We feel the same way as we're forced to fund schools that force it into our kids minds that they evolved from red-assed baboons. Can you understand that?

It could happen...

[RedWingFan]

There is really no point in discussing this any further. Those of you who think Adam and Eve were conjured by magic are going to believe that despite any evidence to the contrary because you're afraid the Devil will reach up from underground and snatch you into Hell if don't.

You're free to believe that though if it makes you happy. Just don't try to force it into the minds of all of our children by teaching it in public school.

I'm through with this.

I understand your feelings. We feel the same way as we're forced to fund schools that force it into our kids minds that they evolved from red-assed baboons. Can you understand that?

It could happen...

Aw hell what is it? The firewall here at work is blocking it.

[Rick]

There is really no point in discussing this any further. Those of you who think Adam and Eve were conjured by magic are going to believe that despite any evidence to the contrary because you're afraid the Devil will reach up from underground and snatch you into Hell if don't.

You're free to believe that though if it makes you happy. Just don't try to force it into the minds of all of our children by teaching it in public school.

I'm through with this.

I understand your feelings. We feel the same way as we're forced to fund schools that force it into our kids minds that they evolved from red-assed baboons. Can you understand that?

It could happen...

Aw hell what is it? The firewall here at work is blocking it.

A babboon playing a guitar.

[RedWingFan]

There is really no point in discussing this any further. Those of you who think Adam and Eve were conjured by magic are going to believe that despite any evidence to the contrary because you're afraid the Devil will reach up from underground and snatch you into Hell if don't.

You're free to believe that though if it makes you happy. Just don't try to force it into the minds of all of our children by teaching it in public school.

I'm through with this.

I understand your feelings. We feel the same way as we're forced to fund schools that force it into our kids minds that they evolved from red-assed baboons. Can you understand that?

It could happen...

Aw hell what is it? The firewall here at work is blocking it.

A babboon playing a guitar.

Wish I could see it.

[Rick]

There is really no point in discussing this any further. Those of you who think Adam and Eve were conjured by magic are going to believe that despite any evidence to the contrary because you're afraid the Devil will reach up from underground and snatch you into Hell if don't.

You're free to believe that though if it makes you happy. Just don't try to force it into the minds of all of our children by teaching it in public school.

I'm through with this.

I understand your feelings. We feel the same way as we're forced to fund schools that force it into our kids minds that they evolved from red-assed baboons. Can you understand that?

It could happen...

Aw hell what is it? The firewall here at work is blocking it.

A babboon playing a guitar.

Wish I could see it.

You can't see any pics at work?

[Higgy]

and PLEASE give me the all those problems with evolutionary theory.

How does evolution account for matter existing in the first place?

How does evolution account for the complexity of even the tiniest cells? Originally, according to evolutionary theory, the smaller the cell, the simpler the structure must be. We are finding now that this is untrue. Even the smallest cells are extremely complex, made up of tiny "machines" or structures that assist the cell in carrying out its purpose.

"Evolutionary theory" does not say that the smaller the cell the simpler the structure must be. In fact, cells are adapted exactly as they need to be to survive in any given environment. To quote Yoda, "Size matters not" - especially in terms of complexity. Nothing in "evolutionary theory" (other than maybe a howstuffworks web site - not exactly Darwin's mouthpiece) contradicts this.

Also, here's a good quote from a pro-evolution web site...

Many theories are works in progress, and evolution is one of them. There are several big questions that the theory of evolution cannot answer right now. This is not unusual. Newtonian physics worked really well for hundreds of years, and it still works well today for many types of problems. However, it does not explain lots of things that were eventually answered by Einstein and his theories of relativity. People create new theories and modify existing ones to explain the unexplained.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/evolution8.htm

In other words, the theory of evolution is not the cold, hard fact that some people present it to be. We also need to define terms. Micro-evolution is obviously observable fact. Macro-evolution is not.

And herein lies the problem. If you are going to cite "pro-evolutionist" works, how stuff works is not the place to start.
Let me recommend 2 books that might build your arguement.
1. The Ancestor's Tale by Richard Dawkins - for how evolution actually works
2. The Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan - which speaks of the dangers of teaching pseudoscience as a legitimate science (like teaching creation stories as legitimate scientific alternatives to evolution)
Read these and this way when you are arguing against godless "evolutionists" you can talk about evolution without citing "howstuffworks" as your source. (In the future, you should also stay away from Mr Wizard, Wikipedia, Charlie Brown's book of Questions and Answers, and Boy's Life as your sources).

As for saying how life began - evolution, indeed, doesn't answer it. But it doesn't set out to. Evolution is how life changes and adapts to its surroundings. Once again - evolution does not contradict God. The only ones making it do that are a small but loud group of religious folk.

[Higgy]

There is really no point in discussing this any further. Those of you who think Adam and Eve were conjured by magic are going to believe that despite any evidence to the contrary because you're afraid the Devil will reach up from underground and snatch you into Hell if don't.

You're free to believe that though if it makes you happy. Just don't try to force it into the minds of all of our children by teaching it in public school.

I'm through with this.

I understand your feelings. We feel the same way as we're forced to fund schools that force it into our kids minds that they evolved from red-assed baboons. Can you understand that?

Yeah and see you are so patently uninformed of what evolution is that you think it means we evolved from "red assed baboons" - or was that just a cool thing to say?

[Monker]

In other words, the theory of evolution is not the cold, hard fact that some people present it to be.

And, Christianity has evolved and changed its beliefs over the past 2000 years as well...and there are just as many zealots who claim their religious beliefs are undisputable facts.

Which goes to Douglas Adams' theory that if anybody ever did find out what is all about, that the universe would suddenly change and be just as inexplicable as it always was.

In other words: Get over it already. Nobody knows the 'answer'. You were not meant to. Choose your faith, and don't expect everybody to follow. When you're rejected, wipe your feet off and move on to the next door. It's assinine to think you can force people to believe as you do. I wish more 'Christians' understood that, Jesus did.

"we apologize for the inconvenience." -- God's last to his creation..."Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

[RedWingFan]

There is really no point in discussing this any further. Those of you who think Adam and Eve were conjured by magic are going to believe that despite any evidence to the contrary because you're afraid the Devil will reach up from underground and snatch you into Hell if don't.

You're free to believe that though if it makes you happy. Just don't try to force it into the minds of all of our children by teaching it in public school.

I'm through with this.

I understand your feelings. We feel the same way as we're forced to fund schools that force it into our kids minds that they evolved from red-assed baboons. Can you understand that?

Yeah and see you are so patently uninformed of what evolution is that you think it means we evolved from "red assed baboons" - or was that just a cool thing to say?

Well, to be honest I just thought it sounded funny
Plus I knew Rick was just dying to use that pic.

[RedWingFan]

You can't see any pics at work?

I can see about 90% of them. Some only come up as squares with red x's in them. I assume it's the firewall.

[Rick]

There is really no point in discussing this any further. Those of you who think Adam and Eve were conjured by magic are going to believe that despite any evidence to the contrary because you're afraid the Devil will reach up from underground and snatch you into Hell if don't.

You're free to believe that though if it makes you happy. Just don't try to force it into the minds of all of our children by teaching it in public school.

I'm through with this.

I understand your feelings. We feel the same way as we're forced to fund schools that force it into our kids minds that they evolved from red-assed baboons. Can you understand that?

Yeah and see you are so patently uninformed of what evolution is that you think it means we evolved from "red assed baboons" - or was that just a cool thing to say?

Well, to be honest I just thought it sounded funny
Plus I knew Rick was just dying to use that pic.

Yes, thanks for giving me the opportunity. Wait til you see the goat.

[Marc S]

Teaching creation in science classes - even "just to let kids know that there are 'competing theories' " is tantamount to also teaching that there is a view that the Earth is at the center of the universe (a belief held by some current religions). At some point you have to teach SCIENCE in science class.

What scares me is that the majority of people who are so against "evolution" (and how absurd is it to be 'against' a physical law of the universe?) is that they always have a misinformed view of how natural selection works. Some believe that evolution means that we "evolved from chimpanzees" or that when we use certain features, those features evolve (use & disuse - an 18th century concept). They don't see that evolution means that we have physical adaptations which cater to the environment we live in - giraffes with longer necks out competed giraffes with shorter necks because the food was higher in the trees.

If you ask most of the zealots who are "sure" that evolution is a lie if they think that species have physical adaptations, they will probably agree with you (as they should, its a proven fact). Well guess what - THAT IS EVOLUTION! Take that to its logical conclusion and see that if the environment continues to change in some areas, the species living in those areas of change, will continue to adapt and a NEW species is born.

I LOVE the question "if there is evolution, why are there still apes?". This bellies a serious misunderstanding which is THE REASON you HAVE to teach evolution in schools. YOU CANNOT BE AGAINST SOMETHING YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND!

Look at evolution and you will find that it can actually reaffirm a religious faith - it all works pretty perfectly and to me FAVORS the existence of God rather than questions is.

No matter how much we might want the Earth to be 6000 years old so it fits nicely in the old testament - it just isn't true. If you want to believe it is - fine - just don't inflict that view OR THE VIEW THAT IT IS A VALID SCIENTIFIC THEORY to children.

Good post

[conversationpc]

In other words, the theory of evolution is not the cold, hard fact that some people present it to be.

And, Christianity has evolved and changed its beliefs over the past 2000 years as well...and there are just as many zealots who claim their religious beliefs are undisputable facts.

Show me where I said Christianity hasn't changed any of its beliefs. The core beliefs have remained the same but, yes, many others have changed.

In other words: Get over it already. Nobody knows the 'answer'. You were not meant to. Choose your faith, and don't expect everybody to follow. When you're rejected, wipe your feet off and move on to the next door. It's assinine to think you can force people to believe as you do. I wish more 'Christians' understood that, Jesus did.

I'm not as uptight as you'd like to have yourself believe. I believe strongly in certain things and I enjoy discussing them. Nothing wrong at all about that. No force applied, none received.

[conversationpc]

Read these and this way when you are arguing against godless "evolutionists" you can talk about evolution without citing "howstuffworks" as your source. (In the future, you should also stay away from Mr Wizard, Wikipedia, Charlie Brown's book of Questions and Answers, and Boy's Life as your sources).

Give me a break. That source and any credible, honest scientist who believes in evolution would admit to the same thing. Evolution is a work in process, not ALL established fact as some would have you believe. Sources are important, however I've found that any source that contradicts a person's given argument is typically dismissed in such a snooty fashion as this.

Anyway, how about this one from http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrar ... ns_faq.php ...

Evolutionary science is a work in progress. New discoveries are made and explanations adjusted when necessary. And in this respect, evolution is just like all other sciences. Research continues to add to our knowledge. While we don't know everything about evolution (or any other scientific discipline, for that matter), we do know a great deal about the history of life, the pattern of lineage-splitting through time, and the mechanisms that have caused these changes. And more will be learned in the future. To date, evolution is the only well-supported explanation for life's diversity.

Notice that, at the end of this quote, it says "well-supported" and not proven or fact.

As for saying how life began - evolution, indeed, doesn't answer it. But it doesn't set out to. Evolution is how life changes and adapts to its surroundings. Once again - evolution does not contradict God. The only ones making it do that are a small but loud group of religious folk.

I'm glad we agree here. I also want to find out whether you are talking about micro-evolution, which I do agree occurs, or macro-evolution, which I do not agree occurs.

[Greg]

In other words, the theory of evolution is not the cold, hard fact that some people present it to be.

And, Christianity has evolved and changed its beliefs over the past 2000 years as well...

This is an untrue statement.