OT--Could Obama Be The First Black President?

[Rip Rokken]

Anyway, people really need to drop the "Bush is unintelligent" argument. Foolish, maybe, but not stupid.

I have to disaree with you on that one bro. I think Bush is dumber than a fucking rock. No one could do the idiotic shit that he has done without being a complete dumbfuck.

Got to go back to that original quote I posted. There are different types of intelligence, and he's certainly not acing every category. I knew a girl who was extremely intelligent in a logical and mathematical sense, and she was also an incredible musician -- could play just about anything very well. She didn't seem to have a damn lick of common sense in her noodle, though. I don't know too many people who are intelligent in every area. My theory is that people you find that excel very well in one area are usually weak in another. Bush doesn't come off very well publicly, and that has been a constant challenge for him. I do think he's made several perplexing decisions and seems completely out of touch with our country. On the other hand, I do consider him a decent human being -- just not the right guy that needs to be leading our country anymore.

I do disagree with the previous comment that he can't deliver a good speech, though. Some of his earlier written speeches, including his 2000 election night victory speech, his first State of the Union speech (the one where he told Congress he was there to ask for a "refund" on America's behalf), and some of the earlier post-9/11 were incredibly statesman-like, and very inspiring. In these scenarios he does very well. On the other hand, when he's speaking a little more off the cuff, like on the campaign trail, it's often terrible. That's where he makes his biggest gaffes, like the comment about OBGYN's all over the country not being able to "practice their love with women" all around the world.

[Enigma869]

On the other hand, I do consider him a decent human being -- just not the right guy that needs to be leading our country anymore.

I do disagree with the previous comment that he can't deliver a good speech, though. Some of his earlier written speeches, including his 2000 election night victory speech, his first State of the Union speech (the one where he told Congress he was there to ask for a "refund" on America's behalf), and some of the earlier post-9/11 were incredibly statesman-like, and very inspiring. In these scenarios he does very well. On the other hand, when he's speaking a little more off the cuff, like on the campaign trail, it's often terrible. That's where he makes his biggest gaffes, like the comment about OBGYN's all over the country not being able to "practice their love with women" all around the world.

Well, I can tell you that even I wouldn't suggest the guy isn't a "decent human being". As big of a dope as I think the guy is, I certainly don't think he is intentionally trying to run the country into the ground (although, he's doing a decent job, even if it isn't his intent)! I honestly believe that even in spite of what the Bush apologists (and I'm not suggesting that you're one of them) say, history will view W. as a bad president, on soooooooo many levels!

As far as these "very inspiring" speeches he has delivered...I must have missed all of them. While some of the speeches themselves may have had a positive and inspiring message, his delivery is about as bad as I've seen from ANY president! With a president, the content of speech is mostly irrelevant, because no presidents write their own speeches! The delivery is EVERYTHING! To be fair, I only go back to Carter, in terms of listening to presidential speeches. That said, he has the worst command of the English language that I've ever heard, from a President, and I'm honestly stunned the guy graduated from Yale (although I wouldn't be shocked if dear old dad had something to do with that). Again, I'm not saying the guy should be executed because he has trouble getting a sentence out. I'm merely pointing out the fact that I'm not sure how ANYONE (regardless of their political affiliation) can sincerely believe this guy is great (or even good) at delivering speeches. Listen to a Bill Clinton or Ronald Reagan speech and then listen to W.! I'm not sure the differences could be any more glaring!


John from Boston

[mikemarrs]

wonder who hillary will pick to be her vice president,will it be john edwards or barack obama?

[Enigma869]

wonder who hillary will pick to be her vice president,will it be john edwards or barack obama?

You're assuming she is going to get the nomination, which certainly isn't a foregone conclusion. If she picked her husband to be her running mate, she would be GUARANTEED a slam dunk victory in November!


John from Boston

[conversationpc]

wonder who hillary will pick to be her vice president,will it be john edwards or barack obama?

I think she's just as likely to choose either Evan Bayh or Bill Richardson.

[Rip Rokken]

I just picked up a hardback copy of Edward Klein's "The Truth About Hillary" at Barnes & Noble for $5.99. About to start reading it now...

[Rockindeano]

wonder who hillary will pick to be her vice president,will it be john edwards or barack obama?

You're assuming she is going to get the nomination, which certainly isn't a foregone conclusion. If she picked her husband to be her running mate, she would be GUARANTEED a slam dunk victory in November!


John from Boston

She can't pick him. Constitutional problem. Bill is on his way to Secretary of State, regardless of which Dem wins.

[Rockindeano]

I just picked up a hardback copy of Edward Klein's "The Truth About Hillary" at Barnes & Noble for $5.99. About to start reading it now...

Yeah, here we go...smear Hillary. The only thing the republicans do well, is smear the opposition, especially the Clinton's. The electorate is fed up with that shit.

[conversationpc]

I just picked up a hardback copy of Edward Klein's "The Truth About Hillary" at Barnes & Noble for $5.99. About to start reading it now...

Yeah, here we go...smear Hillary. The only thing the republicans do well, is smear the opposition, especially the Clinton's. The electorate is fed up with that shit.

EVERYONE in politics, including Democrats, know that the Clinton smear machine is just as active and nasty as anything the Republicans do.

[7 Wishes]

Democrats learned from the best...Rove and the Smearers.

[conversationpc]

Democrats learned from the best...Rove and the Smearers.

Perhaps Rove learned from the famous Clinton smear campaign back in the 90s? Actually, there was quite a good story on the news last night about how Libs and Repubs work so hard at smearing the other side. There seemed to be plenty of evidence that neither side was any worse than the other.

[Rip Rokken]

EVERYONE in politics, including Democrats, know that the Clinton smear machine is just as active and nasty as anything the Republicans do.

Absolutely true. Two Hillary Clinton books amongst a table of marked down George W. Bush smear books. And from what I understand, Edward Klein isn't a Republican by any means.

[Enigma869]

EVERYONE in politics, including Democrats, know that the Clinton smear machine is just as active and nasty as anything the Republicans do.

They actually had a report on ABC News that Hillary's campaign was the "prime suspect" in a smear campaign of ALL other Democratic candidates. Essentially what was happening, according to the story, campaign workers were calling registered voters in Iowa under the guise of an opinion poll. They would then tell these people negative things about Edwards, Obama, et. al. and then ask how that information influenced their opinion of these candidates. The reason they surmised Hillary's campaign was the guilty party was that she was the only candidate who wasn't a target of the negative questions. For the record, a school teacher in Iowa recorded some of these calls, and they were played on the news, so if definitely wasn't a made up story! Pretty scummy way to do things, if you ask me. Fortunately, they said these tactics are actually against the law in the state of New Hampshire, so Hillary will have to reach into her bag of tricks for something else.


John from Boston

[Rip Rokken]

They actually had a report on ABC News that Hillary's campaign was the "prime suspect" in a smear campaign of ALL other Democratic candidates. Essentially what was happening, according to the story, campaign workers were calling registered voters in Iowa under the guise of an opinion poll. They would then tell these people negative things about Edwards, Obama, et. al. and then ask how that information influenced their opinion of these candidates. The reason they surmised Hillary's campaign was the guilty party was that she was the only candidate who wasn't a target of the negative questions. For the record, a school teacher in Iowa recorded some of these calls, and they were played on the news, so if definitely wasn't a made up story! Pretty scummy way to do things, if you ask me. Fortunately, they said these tactics are actually against the law in the state of New Hampshire, so Hillary will have to reach into her bag of tricks for something else.

Right on... It's well known that the Clinton camp runs a war room like no other, and I consider them the undisputed champs of dirty campaigning. What you describe is classic Clinton. Sure each side plays dirty, but not to the same degree. The Clintons have always been completely soulless about their character assassination of their political rivals. It will be interesting to see what she does now that she's in some real trouble.

[conversationpc]

Right on... It's well known that the Clinton camp runs a war room like no other, and I consider them the undisputed champs of dirty campaigning. What you describe is classic Clinton. Sure each side plays dirty, but not to the same degree. The Clintons have always been completely soulless about their character assassination of their political rivals. It will be interesting to see what she does now that she's in some real trouble.

I will be highly surprised if Hillary doesn't go very negative. I will say this...At least when Bill was campaigning, his organization was not nearly as sloppy as Hillary's. Hillary's staff couldn't keep a secret if their life depended on it.

[Rip Rokken]

I will be highly surprised if Hillary doesn't go very negative. I will say this...At least when Bill was campaigning, his organization was not nearly as sloppy as Hillary's. Hillary's staff couldn't keep a secret if their life depended on it.

The book I'm reading talks a lot about that, and how paranoid she was about stuff getting out. Says she had a real meltdown after the story leaked about her throwing a lamp at Bill and calling him a M.F. hit, as well as calling him a c***sucker. She banned the Secret Service from the floor with the living quarters, and later found a way to isolate the Washington Press Corps (I didn't realize they had quarters in the White House), and even tried to have the ushers replaced. I've read much of that before, and those two have some seriously ugly secrets to hide. Not a new idea, as I've heard stories firsthand from people that were personally acquainted with them, had worked under them, or had encountered them that were just beyond the pale. Sure, you hear all the great things about how wonderful Bill is in personal encounters, how he never forgets a face or a name, and shows genuine interest in you. Not saying he doesn't have many great qualities that make him a very likeable person. He's also just a seriously flawed human being who was unable to wield such authority with grace. In his own words, he did many of the bad things "because he could". That's an insight into the guy's dangerous character flaws.

Hillary is different... She's not even likeable, and she's by no means the shoe-in people talked her up to be. But still, those two have been been so teflon coated for so many years, it's been hard for me not to think of her Presidency as being inevitable. How they survive and keep in office has defied logic to me...

[Monker]

I just picked up a hardback copy of Edward Klein's "The Truth About Hillary" at Barnes & Noble for $5.99. About to start reading it now...

Yeah, here we go...smear Hillary. The only thing the republicans do well, is smear the opposition, especially the Clinton's. The electorate is fed up with that shit.

What did you expect? This is why I say she is unelectable...and why I have my doubts she will even be nominated. If she is nominated, the Republicans are going to have all kinds of negative talk...even if the campaign does not release a single negative ad.

[Monker]

Democrats learned from the best...Rove and the Smearers.

Perhaps Rove learned from the famous Clinton smear campaign back in the 90s? Actually, there was quite a good story on the news last night about how Libs and Repubs work so hard at smearing the other side. There seemed to be plenty of evidence that neither side was any worse than the other.

The modern hard core "let's win by being negative" really started with the first Bush and the Willie Horton ads. Dukakis did not fight back and he lost giving the perception on how well attack ads work. All Bush could really come up with was his goofy "thousand points of light", "stay the coarse" bullshit when he talked about himself. Prior to Bush/Dukakis there were negative ads...but not that grusome and exagerated.

[Enigma869]

Hillary is different... She's not even likeable, and she's by no means the shoe-in people talked her up to be.

Calling Hillary "not even likeable" is like saying I'm a bit of a Boston sports fan I actually think she is VERY unlikeable. I've alway detested the woman. I'd still be voting for Bill, if there were no such thing as term limits! I just don't get the fascination with Hillary. I'm not sure there are any candidates who I wouldn't vote for ahead of her! I also agree that in spite of what many are saying, she is in NO WAY a "shoe-in"! She is VERY beatable! As I've said before, if Bill wasn't her husband, she'd be as obscure as Schon would have been, without Perry's voice

John from Boston

[Uno_up]

Charlie Gibson is the star of this night for sure. Guy asked good questions and didn't back down when candidates avoided them.

Gibson: "All of you candidates were pretty much dead wrong about the surge in Iraq. Anyone here want to come out now and say it"

I'm paraphrasing of course, but when Hillary tried to stand by her attack on Petraeus by claiming tonight she said something different than what she really said to him, Gibson wouldn't let her. Good for him.

[RedWingFan]

The modern hard core "let's win by being negative" really started with the first Bush and the Willie Horton ads.

The Willie Horton ads were initially run by a Democrat (can't remember which candidate)
Bush merely followed up with it during the general.

[RedWingFan]

I will be highly surprised if Hillary doesn't go very negative.

Dude, sending someone from her campaign out to the media and speculating about Obama selling drugs rather than just using isn't "very negative"?

[RedWingFan]

I will be highly surprised if Hillary doesn't go very negative.

Dude, sending someone from her campaign out to the media and speculating about Obama selling drugs rather than just using isn't "very negative"?

Damn it Dean! It's over Hillary is cooked.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... ebate.html

[Rockindeano]

I will be highly surprised if Hillary doesn't go very negative.

Dude, sending someone from her campaign out to the media and speculating about Obama selling drugs rather than just using isn't "very negative"?

Damn it Dean! It's over Hillary is cooked.
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch ... ebate.html

Like you expect me to even waste my time clicking on your retarded links.

She will be your president, and then I will expect respect.

The next 6 states are all Hillary landslides. Don't fuck with me on this, I know more than you do.

[RedWingFan]

The next 6 states are all Hillary landslides.

Believe me, I hope you are right about this.

[STORY_TELLER]

Here's my take on the whole freakin' thing.

[Rockindeano]

The next 6 states are all Hillary landslides.

Believe me, I hope you are right about this.

Smearing won't work this time round losers.

I AM right. I hope you all love assrapings.

[Rip Rokken]

As far as these "very inspiring" speeches he has delivered...I must have missed all of them. While some of the speeches themselves may have had a positive and inspiring message, his delivery is about as bad as I've seen from ANY president!

His delivery in each of the ones I mentioned was outstanding, as was his diction and body language. Completely granted that he doesn't write those speeches, so yes, I was mainly talking about his delivery. They were great speeches overall, with a great performance. To be honest, it was like watching two completely different people the first time I heard him stumble around in a press conference, and that's what he's come to be known for now, when he's not 100% teleprompted.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying he's a great speaker when he tries -- I think he's a poor public speaker, but he does have the ability to deliver a very good speech under the right circumstances. And you are right, though I supported and voted for him twice, I'm no Bush apologist. I'd rather hear him apologize...

[Rip Rokken]

They actually had a report on ABC News that Hillary's campaign was the "prime suspect" in a smear campaign of ALL other Democratic candidates. Essentially what was happening, according to the story, campaign workers were calling registered voters in Iowa under the guise of an opinion poll. They would then tell these people negative things about Edwards, Obama, et. al. and then ask how that information influenced their opinion of these candidates. The reason they surmised Hillary's campaign was the guilty party was that she was the only candidate who wasn't a target of the negative questions. For the record, a school teacher in Iowa recorded some of these calls, and they were played on the news, so if definitely wasn't a made up story! Pretty scummy way to do things, if you ask me. Fortunately, they said these tactics are actually against the law in the state of New Hampshire, so Hillary will have to reach into her bag of tricks for something else.

Just tonight I watched a 20/20 episode we DVR'ed that detailed the same thing -- must be the same thing you watch. To be fair, they also covered how the Repubs do the same type of stuff, scouring the news sources or the Internet for things to zing their opponents with, but yes, they gave extra hard knocks to Hillary and mentioned that her "push polls" were illegal. Of course, no one will be charged for doing them...

[Rip Rokken]

Calling Hillary "not even likeable" is like saying I'm a bit of a Boston sports fan I actually think she is VERY unlikeable. I've alway detested the woman. I'd still be voting for Bill, if there were no such thing as term limits! I just don't get the fascination with Hillary. I'm not sure there are any candidates who I wouldn't vote for ahead of her! I also agree that in spite of what many are saying, she is in NO WAY a "shoe-in"! She is VERY beatable! As I've said before, if Bill wasn't her husband, she'd be as obscure as Schon would have been, without Perry's voice

The Lewinsky scandal was the best thing that could have happened to her, because it gave a fairly unpopular First Lady the sympathy votes needed to win a Senate seat. I don't see many more sympathetic situations for her, outside of an occasional nutcase holding up one of her campaign offices, and that doesn't seem to be helping.