OT: Dem Ohio Debate

[Rockindeano]

Deano- It goes on both ways. The news was pretty good in the days of Huntley Brinkly and EARLY Dan Rather. As time went on it became opinion news/journalism. Now we all know that we have to get our news from many sources.

I think you are missing my point.

This story is REAL. The station deliberately blacked it out as to protect Bush and Rove.

60 Minutes is pretty respected, as is Abrams on MSNBC.

[squirt1]

Deano- I do miss quite a bit some of the time, most of the time and maybe all of the time ! I will reread.

[Eric]

In my opinion, offering plans that specifically exclude "well visit coverage", as you call it is irresponsible. The fact of the matter is that people who don't have health insurance do not get checked out by doctors, on a regular basis, and there are plenty of studies out there that confirm this. The fact that you're intimating only old and frail people fall victim to more serious diseases, and thus should have "well visit coverage" is simply ridiculous!

I just want there to be plans that are affordable, so someone doesn't have to choose between a plan they can't afford or no coverage at all. Younger healthy folks are less likely to be sick...I know they still can and do die of serious diseases, but at least they'd be covered for emergency type of needs.

While I actually agree with this on some level, you're really missing the big picture. Ultimately, with this plan, you're making health insurance cost-prohibitive for many families to protect the people we should be the most concerned about...children, who are dependent upon their parents!

I see your point. Outside of my 6 pt plan - kids would be covered universally if their parents couldn't care for them......but folks do need to be more responsible for having kids they can't afford to have. What my idea would pertain to is those who are in a particular plan would just pay more for the more kids they have. AND....I'd include in-laws and siblings in coverage as well. See...I want more choices as fixes....not just blanket everyone wth an inefficient and ineffective government coverage.

I couldn't disagree with this more. For the record, I make a very comfortable living, and have superb healthcare. Having said that, to simply de-value human beings because they don't have the means necessary to be able to afford health insurance is inhumane and disgusting! You seem to be of the belief that everyone who is poor in this country simply chooses to be poor. As someone who grew up in the inner city, I can tell you that couldn't be a bigger fallacy! As the great George Carlin once said the notion that "All Men Are Created Equal" is the biggest bullshit story in the universe! Just because everything is great in your utopian paradise doesn't mean you should have compassion for other people. More times than not, this country takes care of those who can't take care of themselves, and that makes me very proud to call America home!

I don't see how not offering Universal Health Care devalues people? I never said that people without coverage should not be treated...but they should just have to pay. Payment plans with decent interest rates should be offered (make that a 7pt plan now!)

This couldn't be a more uneducated premise. I'm quite sure that you're not a physician and for you to just decide that everyone who is overweight in this country is their own problem is completely ignorant and simply not true, in many cases. I can tell you this...I know MANY people who are close friends of mine who eat more calories in a day than most people eat in three days. They NEVER, EVER exercise, and their weight is perfectly "normal", and in some cases, they are VERY thin! This doesn't mean they're all "healthy", as many of them have high blood pressure and take statins to lower their cholestorol! Your premise simply wants to pick on the people, who your eyes tell you might be at risk for heart disease, when the reality is that there are endless people with the same risk factors who are not remotely obese! I realize that many people in our country believe that obesity is a choice. I've never believed that and never will. I believe that obesity is as much of a "choice" as being gay is!

Obesity was just an example. My objective here is to make people responsible...and it may be flawed...I admit For example, I have serious acid reflux disease. If I don't take my protonix, stop drinking liquor and coffee and lose some weight I don't think my health plan should cover surgery to repair my esophagus. I should still have access to the surgery in an emergency....but it shouldn't be covered.

I agree that this would be a great opporunity for private enterprise to step in. Remember, nobody is stepping in anywhere, unless the business is profitable. As long as our healthcare system remains unchanged, there will be ZERO financial incentive for anyone to begin opening for-profit "clinics" to serve those not occupying the emergency rooms in our country!

Retailers are already exploring the possibilities of having PA's staff care centers that people could come to for issues that shouldn't be dealt with at an emergency room. I BELIEVE their incentive will be they also hope to steal folks who would find these locations more convenient than their doctor offices. PT 8 of my plan is now...MORE USAGE OF PA's and NP's.

[Eric]

Homework assignment for all you Cons:

Tomorrow, I am posting a thread about Karl Rove, an imprisoned Alabama Governor, and a TV station in N Alabama that wouldn't show 60 minutes that basically shed light on Roves illegal and flat out despicable act regarding this.

(note: this is linked to the unjust firings of the US attorneys)

Prepare yourself.

This story will become Huge.

And if I am amped up, we can also talk about Dick Cheney's missing emails in the Fitzgerald led trial.

So...let me get this straight. We're arguing about Universal Healthcare......and you throw a couple of insults out and change topics?

[rsimpson]

I'm no longer diabetic. I'm cholesterol free. And I have the energy of a 10 yr old

Bullshit.

Once a diabetic, always a diabetic. It is not cured. It is controlled

[memberzonly]

Eric makes some good points with respect to a CONTROLLED and MANAGED plan. UHC as currently proposed is a myth and under current fiscal realities, it won't happen.

I fully support universal healthcare for children who are US citizens. As far as adults that are capable of working, they (including myself) should be responsible for our own insurance. I am self employed and have a $5000 deductable. Yeah, it's high but quite frankly, if I can't set aside $5000 for emergencies, it's my own fault. My monthly premium is $123 including dental. Your mileage may vary.

I would support a reasonable plan only after our government enacted fiscal control and responsibility for the budget as a whole. The taxes that are currently stolen from the avg taxpayers paychecks as well as corporate tax contains much more than is required to effectively manage the safety of its citizens.

Well, getting rid of the Fed Reserve and returning to the gold standard would help solve this whole issue . . . .

[Enigma869]

Bullshit.

Once a diabetic, always a diabetic. It is not cured. It is controlled

You're dead on with this! Thankfully, I'm not afflicted with Diabetes but know many who are. It absolutely does NOT go away, and a doctor will tell you that. Having said that, it does seem to be a disease that MANY people can control completely, through diet and exercise. There will always be those who reap zero benefit (from a Diabetes standpoint), even if they exercised 5 hours a day and became a vegeterian!


John from Boston

[conversationpc]

Bullshit.

Once a diabetic, always a diabetic. It is not cured. It is controlled

You're dead on with this! Thankfully, I'm not afflicted with Diabetes but know many who are. It absolutely does NOT go away, and a doctor will tell you that. Having said that, it does seem to be a disease that MANY people can control completely, through diet and exercise. There will always be those who reap zero benefit (from a Diabetes standpoint), even if they exercised 5 hours a day and became a vegeterian!


John from Boston

My mom has it and it is completely under control from diet and exercise.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

Eric makes some good points with respect to a CONTROLLED and MANAGED plan. UHC as currently proposed is a myth and under current fiscal realities, it won't happen.

I fully support universal healthcare for children who are US citizens. As far as adults that are capable of working, they (including myself) should be responsible for our own insurance. I am self employed and have a $5000 deductable. Yeah, it's high but quite frankly, if I can't set aside $5000 for emergencies, it's my own fault. My monthly premium is $123 including dental. Your mileage may vary.

I would support a reasonable plan only after our government enacted fiscal control and responsibility for the budget as a whole. The taxes that are currently stolen from the avg taxpayers paychecks as well as corporate tax contains much more than is required to effectively manage the safety of its citizens.

Well, getting rid of the Fed Reserve and returning to the gold standard would help solve this whole issue . . . .

As an American who has lived Britain a decade, I would urge Americans to take caution regarding a rush to any kind of socialised or govt run or mandated medicine. I ve seen both systems up front and personal, and I know the US system is far from perfect, and we cant turn away children and the vulnerable who dont have coverage, and need to improve alot of things.

The health system in Britain (held up by an example by so many liberals in America) is a mess. There's long waiting lists for basic treatment, especially anything revolutionary. If you are rich, or your employer can afford it you get private medical insurance, pay the deductible, or pay yourself and jump the waiting line. So the same thing happens over here. The rich get the best and the poor guy gets shafted. I didnt think it worked that way with socialism, but oh boy it does!!!

Another thing you see in Britian is the government telling you how you have to live your life if you want treatment- If you smoke, drink , or are too fat, the government has proposed denying you treatment for your resulting ailments - or have to wait at the bottom of the line. It might be foolish to do all those things, but in a free system where you pay, you can go and make your own stupid choices and pay yourself to get your own mess fixed.

In Britian the average citizen pays £3800 (almoe $8,000 !! ) in taxes which support the healthcare system. (and thats just part of the tax burden) - and you dont get what you pay for.

By the way I dont mean to diss Britian, great country, and Im thankful for its continued hospitality for me a visitor. But I really dont think we need to fix the mess in the US by going for aproaches that have created bigger messes elsewhere.

[Rockindeano]

Don't need Florida. You can have it. LOL, we got Nevada, Colorado, Ohio, Iowa and NM.

This won't be close.

[Barb]

As an American who has lived Britain a decade, I would urge Americans to take caution regarding a rush to any kind of socialised or govt run or mandated medicine. I ve seen both systems up front and personal, and I know the US system is far from perfect, and we cant turn away children and the vulnerable who dont have coverage, and need to improve alot of things.

The health system in Britain (held up by an example by so many liberals in America) is a mess. There's long waiting lists for basic treatment, especially anything revolutionary. If you are rich, or your employer can afford it you get private medical insurance, pay the deductible, or pay yourself and jump the waiting line. So the same thing happens over here. The rich get the best and the poor guy gets shafted. I didnt think it worked that way with socialism, but oh boy it does!!!

Another thing you see in Britian is the government telling you how you have to live your life if you want treatment- If you smoke, drink , or are too fat, the government has proposed denying you treatment for your resulting ailments - or have to wait at the bottom of the line. It might be foolish to do all those things, but in a free system where you pay, you can go and make your own stupid choices and pay yourself to get your own mess fixed.

In Britian the average citizen pays £3800 (almoe $8,000 !! ) in taxes which support the healthcare system. (and thats just part of the tax burden) - and you dont get what you pay for.

By the way I dont mean to diss Britian, great country, and Im thankful for its continued hospitality for me a visitor. But I really dont think we need to fix the mess in the US by going for aproaches that have created bigger messes elsewhere.

I've heard that they've imposed some sort of rule that a patient who goes to the ER must be seen by a doctor within 4 hours. So to get around that, they are having patients outside waiting in ambulances until they can get them in to be seen within the 4 hour time frame. As a result, ambulances are being held up and not getting to people. This does not sound like a good idea to me, but what do I know?

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

As an American who has lived Britain a decade, I would urge Americans to take caution regarding a rush to any kind of socialised or govt run or mandated medicine. I ve seen both systems up front and personal, and I know the US system is far from perfect, and we cant turn away children and the vulnerable who dont have coverage, and need to improve alot of things.

The health system in Britain (held up by an example by so many liberals in America) is a mess. There's long waiting lists for basic treatment, especially anything revolutionary. If you are rich, or your employer can afford it you get private medical insurance, pay the deductible, or pay yourself and jump the waiting line. So the same thing happens over here. The rich get the best and the poor guy gets shafted. I didnt think it worked that way with socialism, but oh boy it does!!!

Another thing you see in Britian is the government telling you how you have to live your life if you want treatment- If you smoke, drink , or are too fat, the government has proposed denying you treatment for your resulting ailments - or have to wait at the bottom of the line. It might be foolish to do all those things, but in a free system where you pay, you can go and make your own stupid choices and pay yourself to get your own mess fixed.

In Britian the average citizen pays £3800 (almoe $8,000 !! ) in taxes which support the healthcare system. (and thats just part of the tax burden) - and you dont get what you pay for.

By the way I dont mean to diss Britian, great country, and Im thankful for its continued hospitality for me a visitor. But I really dont think we need to fix the mess in the US by going for aproaches that have created bigger messes elsewhere.

I've heard that they've imposed some sort of rule that a patient who goes to the ER must be seen by a doctor within 4 hours. So to get around that, they are having patients outside waiting in ambulances until they can get them in to be seen within the 4 hour time frame. As a result, ambulances are being held up and not getting to people. This does not sound like a good idea to me, but what do I know?

yes things like this happen regularily, of course why should someone wait 4 hours anyway to see a doctor in the emergency room (or Casualty as its called in Britiain)

[conversationpc]

Did anyone else hear today that McCain was leading both Hillary and Obama in the national polls or am I imagining things? Perhaps it was just Florida but I would swear it was national.

[Gin and Tonic Sky]

Did anyone else hear today that McCain was leading both Hillary and Obama in the national polls or am I imagining things? Perhaps it was just Florida but I would swear it was national.

No its true. its going to be a razor close election!

[Rockindeano]

It won't be razor thin.

Unless republicans steal another state, Obama is up 5 over the Old Man and the Old Man is up 2 on Hillary.

Electoral College will be landslide, like Clinton over Bush 41.

When the Dems unite, it will all over. Especially when people see McCain just being an extension of Bush, he will go down in flames.