OT: Proposition 8

[StoneCold]

One male and ONE female? Really???? Then why all the references to polygamy? They are ALL OVER the old testament!
There's even a verse that refers to marriage as a covenant between a man and a woman...OR WOMEN.

So how do you feel about multiple wives?

Dude, I have a hard enough time keeping one woman happy.

That's what she said.

[X factor]

One male and ONE female? Really???? Then why all the references to polygamy? They are ALL OVER the old testament!
There's even a verse that refers to marriage as a covenant between a man and a woman...OR WOMEN.

So how do you feel about multiple wives?

Dude, I have a hard enough time keeping one woman happy.

That's what she said.

BTW- I'm just sorta playin devil's advocate here. I do consider myself Christian, but I also believe that the Bible is a tricky book, and one that I'm fairly certain has been tampered with over time to serve certain agendas. In the end, it all comes down to what your own conscience tells you. And mine tells me that while I may not agree with the homosexual lifestyle, that it is wrong to discriminate against them because they made a different choice (or were born differently- who really knows?) than I . I also seem to remember Jesus telling us to "love the sinner and hate the sin".
But that's just my opinion...

[wildcat75]

As far as i'm concern, God gives us the wisdom to think and choose on how we live our life with, although i was born and raised as a Catholic, i have nothing against homosexual or lesbian. I have a niece and nephew who are both gay, and have a good friend too, for me they are the most passionate, caring and genuine people i have ever meet. My only concern is that i hope they're handle the consequences of their actions vey well when things went wrong and they left nothing but a broken hearts..So in order to protect their right and previledges by marriying them, who am i to judge them , these are the life they choose w/ but i have also mine i cannot imagine myself being like them, blamed it from being like me since i was born but for me man is for woman and woman is for man, that's my religious belief and i will never change it. Anyway, life is not perfect,no matter how well we plan it or how much power we have, Life still demands adjusment. IMO.

[Voyager]

If homosexuality was a biological condition produced inescapably by the genes (e.g. eye color), then if one identical twin was homosexual, in 100% of the cases his brother would be too. But we know that only about 38% of the time is the identical twin brother homosexual.

The other 62% are still in the closet.

[Voyager]

When studying twins, scientists try to describe similarities. They use the term “concordance” to describe the level of similarity that exists for different characteristics. For example, body build, eye color, hair texture, hair color, and other physical traits tend to be 100 percent concordant in identical twins.

“But 100 percent concordance for more complex behavioral traits is rare, even in identical twins,” Whitam says. Most researchers would say that a concordance rate of 60 percent is high enough to suggest some sort of biological basis for the behavior.”

Whitam and his colleagues studied 38 pairs of identical twins (34 male pairs and four female pairs). Their results showed a concordance rate of 66 percent for homosexual orientation, which suggests that if one twin was homosexual, there was a 66 percent chance the twin brother or sister also would be homosexual.

The researchers also studied 23 pairs of fraternal twins. Those results showed a concordance rate of 30 percent for homosexual orientation for that group.

Is sexual orientation biologically determined, socially learned, or the result of some type of interaction? Whitam says the biological question has been debated by sex researchers for more than 150 years.

In 1952, F. J. Kallman’s research with twins jarred the widely held notion that homosexual orientation was socially determined. In 1962, research by German scientist W.W. Schlegel supported Kallman’s finding that homosexual orientation in identical twins had a 100 percent concordance rate.

More recently, in 1991, Whitam says that J. M. Bailey and R. C. Pillard’s large study of male twins caused a stir among many social scientists.They found a concordance rate of 52 percent for homosexual orientation in 56 pairs of identical twins and 22 percent concordance for 54 pairs of fraternal twins.

The findings of our study are more consistent with Bailey and Pillard’s than with the early work of Kallman and others,” Whitam says. “In both recent studies, the rates of concordance, while not 100 percent, are still sufficiently high to suggest a strong biological basis for sexual orientation.” — John Matthews

Link: http://researchmag.asu.edu/stories/supporting.html

[7 Wishes]

This issue has always perplexed me. I don't have an opinion one way or the other on whether same-sex couples should be "married" in the legal sense, but I have no problem with legal union, giving them equal rights to heterosexual couples. "Marriage" is just semantics...it should be up to the states to decide whether or homosexuals should be "married". If you ask me, it's up to the individual churches once the initiative has legislatively passed on the state level.

[bluejeangirl76]

Leviticus 18:22
(King James Version): "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

More highly selective bible quoting. That's chapter 18... long before they ever deal with that issue... chapter 11 says:

Leviticus 11:9-12
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat. 10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you: 11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination. 12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Ever eat a shrimp? Oysters Rockefeller? That's a SIN.
Isn't is lovely how people turn to the bible only when they personally don't like something and want backup from the man upstairs?

Here's a better one... chapter 15... still a more urgent matter than gays way back in chapter 18...

15:19 And if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even.

15:29 And on the eighth day she shall take unto her two turtles, or two young pigeons, and bring them unto the priest, to the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
15:30 And the priest shall offer the one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for her before the LORD for the issue of her uncleanness.

Two turtles or two pigeons? When I was 12 it was enough of a pain in the ass to sneak around an Always pad because we weren't allowed to carry purses in junior high. Turtles?!

Point being, either adhere to all of it or stop using just the convenient parts.

By the way Rick... good luck on having this not turn into a hateful thread.
But kudos to you for the way you presented your opinion. Very respectful.

I love how NO ONE has challenged this post! Way to go, BJG! This has always been my response to anyone who whips out the "abomination" crap.

The unclean part from the bible is still practiced in some parts of the world. Not with a dove or whatever but I know the Catholic Church in Italy, don't know if they still do, but not long ago, a woman could not enter the church after having a baby because she is considered "unclean" for the same reason and they have to wait. It comes from a Jewish custom which comes from that part of the bible. I'm not sure if Jewish people still practice that or not, but it is a ritual. Thank God they don't practice that in the American Catholic church cause I would have had a problem with that BUT, that is the thing with my church. They dont' take the bible THAT literally and we get attacked by other Christians for that fact. If something like that is practiced it is because it is a RITUAL which is different than being a literal passage you must adhere to so that you can enter heaven. Things like that vary between Christian religions though. Like you said though, people pick and choose.

Then your church is not reading the bible for all it is worth. When God said for people of the same sex not to lay with another person of the same sex and have sex, he meant what he said. It is also in the same thought and book that says, "Oh, by the way, don't do it with animals either. It makes me sick to my stomache!" Taken in the context, the two behaviors are sins against God, and both of them make him sick. He is very clear.

Your church pastor needs to study the Hebrew and what Genesis 1 really means. God laid the foundations for life. He ordained only the family, with one male and one female. That family has spiritual symbolim throughout scripture. The male and female were made for each other and together they make one flesh. Any sex outside of marraige is wrong. So it is a double whammy. Gays are not to marry and they cannot have sex, IF they are true believers in God.

I love how you speak for god... it "makes him sick"? Taken in context, plenty more than just that behavior are sins and I don't see you blathering on about the rest of them. God was also pissed when Onan wouldn't impregnate his brother's wife and masturbated instead.

Are you about to have us all believe that you do not do ANY of the things the bible speaks against? The book of Levitcus alone would have us all condemned in two seconds if we followed it to the letter.

The bible is archaic and was nothing more than a way to scare people senseless into behaving. The modern form of that is called law, government and congress.

[Clasicrockldy]

The mormon church gave like $20 million to support this ban.

I heard that people from all religions gave money in support. I would like to see a link please that says the Mormon Church gave $20 million for Prop 8.

How much did they give to struggling families or people in their own backyard that have lost jobs and their houses ? A lot I am sure however does it measure up to what then spent on relief efforts ? No it does not.

How would you know how much the Mormon Church gave for relief efforts, to help out their members when times get tough? I would love to know where you get your info from.

[Loneman1]

I think they should be able to be able to be recognized as a married couple. While I'm not gay nor of the LDS church, I am pretty pissed off at that church for interferring in this matter and making such a gigantic spectacle. That statement may open up a whole different argument, but its shit like this that makes me genuinely embarassed to say I presently reside here in UT. Bottom line is that I firmly believe homosexuals deserve ALL the same rights as heterosexuals.

[Voyager]

When God said for people of the same sex not to lay with another person of the same sex and have sex, he meant what he said.

Okay Lowdbrent, let's say go along with your argument for a moment. Which one of the commands from the Bible below do you think should be obeyed?

Leviticus 20:9: “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death: He has cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

Leviticus 20:10: “And the man that commiteth adultery with another man’s wife...the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”

Leviticus 20:13: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: They shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

Leviticus 20:27: “A man also or a woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones.”

If God meant what he said, as you say, are you ready to obey all of these commands... or are you just going to single out the gays?

[StevePerryHair]

When God said for people of the same sex not to lay with another person of the same sex and have sex, he meant what he said.

Okay Lowdbrent, let's say go along with your argument for a moment. Which one of the commands from the Bible below do you think should be obeyed?

Leviticus 20:9: “For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death: He has cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.”

Leviticus 20:10: “And the man that commiteth adultery with another man’s wife...the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”

Leviticus 20:13: “If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: They shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

Leviticus 20:27: “A man also or a woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones.”

If God meant what he said, as you say, are you ready to obey all of these commands... or are you just going to single out the gays?

You all keep quoting the old testament. As a Christian I always thought that Christ came with a message of repentence and forgiveness for sins. Didn't he even stop a stoning? He pretty much told them a lot of their interpretations from the Old Testament needed revising, putting it simply. He tried to get them to think differently about the violence they were practicing from the old testament is how I always looked at it. Correct me if I'm wrong. I am in NO WAY agreeing with the person you are quoting here, but its' just we have all this focus on the Old Testament here. Jesus hung out with the sinners. It was his audience. Now you will find these same kinds of things in Romans but instead of it stating that MAN should take these sins into their own hands, it states that God is the one who will give them death, and death is interpretted by many Christians as no chance for eternal life. That's why I could never look at the bible as a literal document from cover to cover. And I don't believe for one minute christ would condone any persecution or hate for gay people . His message was love. The new testament says that gay is wrong also, but Christ's message to me was you are supposed to love the sinner, if you believe someone is sinning. Not hate or judge them.

[Enigma869]

I would like to see a link please that says the Mormon Church gave $20 million for Prop 8.

I don't believe the exact dollar amount is correct. I believe that the campaign to ban gay marriage brought in over $20 million dollars, and the Mormon Church contributed more to the cause than any other organization, but there were certainly other contributors!


John from Boston

[Tito]

I think it's outstanding it passed.

[Voyager]

The new testament says that gay is wrong also, but Christ's message to me was you are supposed to love the sinner, if you believe someone is sinning. Not hate or judge them.

The New Testament also commands women to keep silent in churches. How many Christians obey that command?

[Rhiannon]

The New Testament also commands women to keep silent in churches. How many Christians obey that command?

I do. The past few times I've been to church was usually under some sort of sleep deprived form and I might've had a catnap during the sermon.

[lights1961]

did not read everyones comment.... but marriage is man and woman... um... my niece had a ceremony..its not legal in MN with her lady friend and they are 25... but its still not right to do get rights the same way a man and a woman do... its just proven that societies that allow this behavior eventully fold...

Rick

[(Crazy)Dulce Lady]

a couple of thoughts.

a-let's no over govern ourselves.

b-same sex intimacy makes no sense to me. body parts, eh?

c-on that note, i have lots of friends who may be considered 'gay' due to their mannerisms--i.e., feminine men and overtly manish women. all are in heterosexual marriages and have been for many years. I think mannerisms as such are misinterpreted by young ones perhaps as sexual preference. dunno that- just a pondering. there is just not enough info to make a call on what factors incline one to be 'gay'. whatever that means.

d-the old testament law was canceled by Jesus' death on the cross and a new law was put in place. personal relationship with the Saviour. yeah, none of this don't eat this, wash this way, blah blah. we are guided individually by this faith based relationship.

e-the bible is not a scare tactic any moreso than the laws, government, congress. (but there are parts of all of those that are dang scary!! I hate the traffic ticket thing!) it is a manual for believers and a historical account of the faith. period. yea, some whacky stuff started morphing into the 'law' but that was why the need for the new law. get back on track and ditch all the regulatory schutt, that being accomplished by the birth and death of Jesus, thereby providing a vehicle for a personal relationship with God the Father. simplier, ain't it?? God thought so too.

If you are not a believer, then there is no reason to debate the points of the 'manual'. to each his/her own. i don't understand the need for us to always get up in each other's stuff and help decide what is best.

With that said, I oppose the same sex marriage thing because a union of same sex does not meet the definition of marriage. law lingo schutt, eh? marriage is one man and one woman. they'd have to change the definition of marriage or call same sex unions something else.

jmho

[StevePerryHair]

The new testament says that gay is wrong also, but Christ's message to me was you are supposed to love the sinner, if you believe someone is sinning. Not hate or judge them.

The New Testament also commands women to keep silent in churches. How many Christians obey that command?

Hey, I'm with you. I am not a literalist. The New Testament was written at a time when women had no rights. Some still don't in this world. That was the time period Jesus preached to though, and he could only be so radical I'm sure, to get his message across. And I think one of the big messages is we can judge others sins, but really we should be looking at our own lives and where we can improve, not pointing out everyone elses mistakes and what is going to land them in hell. You won't find me judging anyone or deciding anyone's fate in the end, because I am not perfect and I have just as much a chance at hell as any other christian or non-christian in this world.

[(Crazy)Dulce Lady]

The New Testament also commands women to keep silent in churches. How many Christians obey that command?

I do. The past few times I've been to church was usually under some sort of sleep deprived form and I might've had a catnap during the sermon.

hehe. my husband kinda snorted yesterday in the service.

I'm not good at that quiet schutt. I'm not sure exactly where the line is on that point so I'll just keep my opinion quiet like I'm 'spposed to. hehehehehehehe

[(Crazy)Dulce Lady]

The new testament says that gay is wrong also, but Christ's message to me was you are supposed to love the sinner, if you believe someone is sinning. Not hate or judge them.

The New Testament also commands women to keep silent in churches. How many Christians obey that command?

Hey, I'm with you. I am not a literalist. The New Testament was written at a time when women had no rights. Some still don't in this world. That was the time period Jesus preached to though, and he could only be so radical I'm sure, to get his message across. And I think one of the big messages is we can judge others sins, but really we should be looking at our own lives and where we can improve, not pointing out everyone elses mistakes and what is going to land them in hell. You won't find me judging anyone or deciding anyone's fate in the end, because I am not perfect and I have just as much a chance at hell as any other christian or non-christian in this world.

me too.

[Voyager]

The New Testament also commands women to keep silent in churches. How many Christians obey that command?

I do. The past few times I've been to church was usually under some sort of sleep deprived form and I might've had a catnap during the sermon.

Just make sure you don't slump over onto a gay person sitting next to you. That would be considered a sin.

[Voyager]

...but really we should be looking at our own lives and where we can improve, not pointing out everyone elses mistakes and what is going to land them in hell.

If all religions would go by that rule, I don't think there would be any religious debates. Unfortunately most religions promote just the opposite and make this their golden rule: "Point out everyone's sins except your own so you can feel holier than everyone else."

[Don]

The Mormon Church gave 8 million dollars toward the measure. As I said earlier in the thread, if religious groups want to dabble with ballet measures and other things in politics by throwing money around, then their tax exempt status should be forfeit.

[Enigma869]

As I said earlier in the thread, if religious groups want to dabble with ballet measures and other things in politics by throwing money around, then their tax exempt status should be forfeit.

Religion shouldn't be tax exempt, anyway! It's always been a farce. Religious organizations are some of the biggest holders of real estate in the country. I suspect that's it's also a multi-billion dollar industry! They should tax those fuckers just like they tax every other business! Don't kid yourself...religion is a business and a huge one at that!


John from Boston

[Voyager]

As I said earlier in the thread, if religious groups want to dabble with ballet measures and other things in politics by throwing money around, then their tax exempt status should be forfeit.

Religion shouldn't be tax exempt, anyway! It's always been a farce. Religious organizations are some of the biggest holders of real estate in the country. I suspect that's it's also a multi-billion dollar industry! They should tax those fuckers just like they tax every other business! Don't kid yourself...religion is a business and a huge one at that!


John from Boston

If we started taxing the profits of churches and religious groups, we could probably bailout the mortgage crisis and pay off the national debt.

[Enigma869]

If we started taxing the profits of churches and religious groups, we could probably bailout the mortgage crisis and pay off the national debt.

Not to mention wiping out the national deficit and leaving us with a surplus!


John from Boston

[Playitloudforme]

Imagine if only blonds could marry. What if you were a redhead or brunette?

Or if only Blue eyed people could marry?

Or if only you could salsa dance?

Or if only Gays could marry? Imagine a society where it was the other way around.

Over the years, I've known plenty of gay people as good friends. I do not know of any gay people who WANTED to be ostracized from society, who wanted to grow up feeling like an outsider, who wanted to always question themselves. Heterosexuals do not grow up in a society that deems it wrong to be attracted to the opposite sex. Replace Gay with African-american, and this is the same prejudice that existed back in the 60s to a degree. A 100 years ago, it was women. This is a society issue, this is a civil rights issue. It's a society wanting conformity, and being reluctant to accept variance.

In the US, there is a separation of Church and State. Therefore, religious views should not be taken into account over this subject.

[Tito]

As I said earlier in the thread, if religious groups want to dabble with ballet measures and other things in politics by throwing money around, then their tax exempt status should be forfeit.

Religion shouldn't be tax exempt, anyway! It's always been a farce. Religious organizations are some of the biggest holders of real estate in the country. I suspect that's it's also a multi-billion dollar industry! They should tax those fuckers just like they tax every other business! Don't kid yourself...religion is a business and a huge one at that!


John from Boston

I agree. A lot of the churches, etc. have been hijacked by people with political agendas.

[Ehwmatt]

I say let gay people get married. They have the right to be as miserable as everyone else.
( since no one said it yet it had to be said)

Al Bundy would be proud

[Tito]

I don't think gays have the right to get married because I don't have the right to discriminate against them. If I discriminated against them now, I would get charged with a hate crime or get sued. So tough. We all have to make sacrifices in life.