Senator Ted Kennedy dies

[donnaplease]

It's still a travesty burying this piece of shit among solders that died for the flag that Fat Teddy was so hell bent on allowing people to burn...

the soldiers that have died for our flag have done so defending our freedoms- one of which is to burn our flag.

Ooooh! Don't like this statement! To me, that (flag burning) is like spitting in the face of those that gave their lives for the flag. Faulty thinking.

I've been reading about Ted's military service, and it seems he pulled something very similar to what 'W' was crucified for, which is using family ties to get a cushy assignment. When I first heard that he was gonna be laid to rest in Arlington, my initial response was "oh hell no!" because of his vocal opposition to the Vietnam War and by default the soldiers who were there. But I guess as a veteran he does have some right to be there. It doesn't matter what any of us think, though. He's a Kennedy, and his wishes will be granted. He did devote a large part of his life to public service, whether we agree with his politics or not.

[Lula]

flag burning is protected under the first amendment, like it or not.

[donnaplease]

flag burning is protected under the first amendment, like it or not.

Not!

[strangegrey]

flag burning is protected under the first amendment, like it or not.

bullshit. The flag burning argument is a fucking ludicrous one. Freedom is not something that should be protected in the absolute.....

do you have the freedom to walk up to someone and urinate in their mouth? Do you have the freedom to wipe your feces on the front door of the local supermarket? Do you have the freedom to burn a swastika into the lawn of your neighbor?

All could be inappropriately argued as a freedom of expression. Oh come on...what's a little swastika for fun and expression....eh?
The problem is that they are wrong on ALL levels....


Why is it not ok for someone to fly the civil war flag of the south but it's a freedom of expression if you burn the american flag?

Riddle me that one Lula?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.....


I guarantee you that there are very few soldiers who went to war at the request of the fat lying scumbags in congress like Fat Teddie or whatever president is sitting in office.....with the express intent of defending individuals who would deface the very flag they wear on their arm walking into battle.


The flag is a symbol of freedom. Burning the symbol is not an expression of the very freedom it represents...

[Ehwmatt]

flag burning is protected under the first amendment, like it or not.

bullshit. The flag burning argument is a fucking ludicrous one. Freedom is not something that should be protected in the absolute.....

do you have the freedom to walk up to someone and urinate in their mouth? Do you have the freedom to wipe your feces on the front door of the local supermarket? Do you have the freedom to burn a swastika into the lawn of your neighbor?

All could be inappropriately argued as a freedom of expression. Oh come on...what's a little swastika for fun and expression....eh?
The problem is that they are wrong on ALL levels....


Why is it not ok for someone to fly the civil war flag of the south but it's a freedom of expression if you burn the american flag?

Riddle me that one Lula?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.....


I guarantee you that there are very few soldiers who went to war at the request of the fat lying scumbags in congress like Fat Teddie or whatever president is sitting in office.....with the express intent of defending individuals who would deface the very flag they wear on their arm walking into battle.


The flag is a symbol of freedom. Burning the symbol is not an expression of the very freedom it represents...

Those were some brilliant hypotheticals

[Saint John]

It's still a travesty burying this piece of shit among solders that died for the flag that Fat Teddy was so hell bent on allowing people to burn...

the soldiers that have died for our flag have done so defending our freedoms- one of which is to burn our flag.

Edit: Too incredibly close to what Frank said. And I didn't read his till after I wrote mine!

[donnaplease]

flag burning is protected under the first amendment, like it or not.

bullshit. The flag burning argument is a fucking ludicrous one. Freedom is not something that should be protected in the absolute.....

do you have the freedom to walk up to someone and urinate in their mouth? Do you have the freedom to wipe your feces on the front door of the local supermarket? Do you have the freedom to burn a swastika into the lawn of your neighbor?

All could be inappropriately argued as a freedom of expression. Oh come on...what's a little swastika for fun and expression....eh?
The problem is that they are wrong on ALL levels....


Why is it not ok for someone to fly the civil war flag of the south but it's a freedom of expression if you burn the american flag?

Riddle me that one Lula?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.....


I guarantee you that there are very few soldiers who went to war at the request of the fat lying scumbags in congress like Fat Teddie or whatever president is sitting in office.....with the express intent of defending individuals who would deface the very flag they wear on their arm walking into battle.


The flag is a symbol of freedom. Burning the symbol is not an expression of the very freedom it represents...

I guess by that line of reasoning it's ok to burn a cross in someone's yard, right?

Seriously, though, I wonder why flag burning isn't considered a 'hate' crime, especially when it's done at a political/military rally. How is that different than burning a cross at a KKK rally? Both seem to express a certain disdain for a group of individuals who are not deserving of such treatment. Just some food for thought.

(For the record, I'm not advocating cross burning, the KKK, or anything else. Just playing devil's advocate, here.)

[StevePerryHair]

It's still a travesty burying this piece of shit among solders that died for the flag that Fat Teddy was so hell bent on allowing people to burn...

the soldiers that have died for our flag have done so defending our freedoms- one of which is to burn our flag.

I have the "freedom" to rub my own fecal matter all over my body and run around in a G-string singing Sweet Caroline. Doesn't mean it's sane or proper. Neither is burning our flag.

Is THAT what happened on your road trip to the Carolina's Where are the pics

[donnaplease]

It's still a travesty burying this piece of shit among solders that died for the flag that Fat Teddy was so hell bent on allowing people to burn...

the soldiers that have died for our flag have done so defending our freedoms- one of which is to burn our flag.

I have the "freedom" to rub my own fecal matter all over my body and run around in a G-string singing Sweet Caroline. Doesn't mean it's sane or proper. Neither is burning our flag.

I actually might have video of just that...

[Saint John]

It's still a travesty burying this piece of shit among solders that died for the flag that Fat Teddy was so hell bent on allowing people to burn...

the soldiers that have died for our flag have done so defending our freedoms- one of which is to burn our flag.

I have the "freedom" to rub my own fecal matter all over my body and run around in a G-string singing Sweet Caroline. Doesn't mean it's sane or proper. Neither is burning our flag.

I actually might have video of just that...

Don't you dare fucking post it. I was a half step down that night!

[Ehwmatt]

flag burning is protected under the first amendment, like it or not.

bullshit. The flag burning argument is a fucking ludicrous one. Freedom is not something that should be protected in the absolute.....

do you have the freedom to walk up to someone and urinate in their mouth? Do you have the freedom to wipe your feces on the front door of the local supermarket? Do you have the freedom to burn a swastika into the lawn of your neighbor?

All could be inappropriately argued as a freedom of expression. Oh come on...what's a little swastika for fun and expression....eh?
The problem is that they are wrong on ALL levels....


Why is it not ok for someone to fly the civil war flag of the south but it's a freedom of expression if you burn the american flag?

Riddle me that one Lula?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.....


I guarantee you that there are very few soldiers who went to war at the request of the fat lying scumbags in congress like Fat Teddie or whatever president is sitting in office.....with the express intent of defending individuals who would deface the very flag they wear on their arm walking into battle.


The flag is a symbol of freedom. Burning the symbol is not an expression of the very freedom it represents...

I guess by that line of reasoning it's ok to burn a cross in someone's yard, right?

Seriously, though, I wonder why flag burning isn't considered a 'hate' crime, especially when it's done at a political/military rally. How is that different than burning a cross at a KKK rally? Both seem to express a certain disdain for a group of individuals who are not deserving of such treatment. Just some food for thought.

(For the record, I'm not advocating cross burning, the KKK, or anything else. Just playing devil's advocate, here.)

It's not a hate crime because those who think it's okay are in the loud vocal majority right now. Thus, no scumbag politician can accrue any political capital by lobbying for it to become a hate crime.

[Lula]

i'm not defending anyone choosing to burn the flag, simply stating that the act of doing so is protected under the first amendment. don't waste your time talking about urinating in someone's mouth- why do you even think of stuff like that? are personal offenses something you enjoy? i don't think our constitution ever says it's okay to assault another person with urine or anything else. don't confuse the issue.

[donnaplease]

flag burning is protected under the first amendment, like it or not.

bullshit. The flag burning argument is a fucking ludicrous one. Freedom is not something that should be protected in the absolute.....

do you have the freedom to walk up to someone and urinate in their mouth? Do you have the freedom to wipe your feces on the front door of the local supermarket? Do you have the freedom to burn a swastika into the lawn of your neighbor?

All could be inappropriately argued as a freedom of expression. Oh come on...what's a little swastika for fun and expression....eh?
The problem is that they are wrong on ALL levels....


Why is it not ok for someone to fly the civil war flag of the south but it's a freedom of expression if you burn the american flag?

Riddle me that one Lula?

You can't have your cake and eat it too.....


I guarantee you that there are very few soldiers who went to war at the request of the fat lying scumbags in congress like Fat Teddie or whatever president is sitting in office.....with the express intent of defending individuals who would deface the very flag they wear on their arm walking into battle.


The flag is a symbol of freedom. Burning the symbol is not an expression of the very freedom it represents...

I guess by that line of reasoning it's ok to burn a cross in someone's yard, right?

Seriously, though, I wonder why flag burning isn't considered a 'hate' crime, especially when it's done at a political/military rally. How is that different than burning a cross at a KKK rally? Both seem to express a certain disdain for a group of individuals who are not deserving of such treatment. Just some food for thought.

(For the record, I'm not advocating cross burning, the KKK, or anything else. Just playing devil's advocate, here.)

It's not a hate crime because those who think it's okay are in the loud vocal majority right now. Thus, no scumbag politician can accrue any political capital by lobbying for it to become a hate crime.

It is a legitimate question, though, isn't it? This thread may not be the place to discuss it, but it's funny how one thing leads to another. A flag is a sacred symbol to many Americans, and it's desecration to me is simply unexcusable. I understand what Lula's trying to say about our rights to express ourselves, I just don't agree with it regarding flag burning.

[Ehwmatt]

i'm not defending anyone choosing to burn the flag, simply stating that the act of doing so is protected under the first amendment. don't waste your time talking about urinating in someone's mouth- why do you even think of stuff like that? are personal offenses something you enjoy? i don't think our constitution ever says it's okay to assault another person with urine or anything else. don't confuse the issue.

LOL!!!! That's child's play for someone who is more used to Deano than even any of us are

[strangegrey]

Those that argue that flag burning is a freedom are fucking hypocrites.....the Hyannis Murderer was the first one to the party....

because the same mental midgets that champion this liberal cause will be the first to burn someone at the stake for spray-painting a swastika into a wall somewhere.....(and let me be clear, I do NOT condone such a despicable action)

an act of expression, no doubt..one that is most certainly NOT protected under the 1st amendment.





I love it when libs start vag flapping about the bill of rights. They're desperate to utterly destroy almost every BoR amendment, most significantly the second one.....but the first one is a great catch all for all the 'expressionism' that conveniently works in furthering their agenda....

[Ehwmatt]

It is a legitimate question, though, isn't it? This thread may not be the place to discuss it, but it's funny how one thing leads to another. A flag is a sacred symbol to many Americans, and it's desecration to me is simply unexcusable. I understand what Lula's trying to say about our rights to express ourselves, I just don't agree with it regarding flag burning.

It is, but what has happened is the Supr. Ct. has struck down anti-flag burning legislation over the years. They would have to draw up a very narrow bill to proscribe flag burning at all. Since the Court can strike down legislation and Congress can "overrule" a Court's holding with a statute aimed at the ruling, what we've had with flag burning is a vicious cycle where a law is struck down, then the leg tries to react again, struck down, so on and so forth...

I just don't understand why you'd want to burn the fuckin flag.

[donnaplease]

Frank, where I live it's not uncommon to see a confederate flag. It's reflective of honoring our southern heritage, though, and has nothing to do with slavery, etc that some try to equate it to.

[strangegrey]

i'm not defending anyone choosing to burn the flag, simply stating that the act of doing so is protected under the first amendment. don't waste your time talking about urinating in someone's mouth- why do you even think of stuff like that? are personal offenses something you enjoy? i don't think our constitution ever says it's okay to assault another person with urine or anything else. don't confuse the issue.

Well, burning a swastika in someone's lawn isn't hurting anyone....neither is wiping your feces on the door of a store....it's freedom of expression....right?

Hell, forget about the whole concept of private property damage (which would never be considered in such an issue, realistically).....burn the swastika in YOUR OWN lawn....that's ok right?




You don't have a leg to stand on in this argument.

[Saint John]

flag burning is protected under the first amendment, like it or not.

I believe the (insane) reasoning behind that is because, unlike cross burning, it is deemed to "not incite a riot or disturb the peace." That needs to change...and it will if *I* ever see it. I would have no problem facing the legal charges, whatever they may be, for punching someone in the face, as hard as I can, engaging in said activity.

[donnaplease]

It is a legitimate question, though, isn't it? This thread may not be the place to discuss it, but it's funny how one thing leads to another. A flag is a sacred symbol to many Americans, and it's desecration to me is simply unexcusable. I understand what Lula's trying to say about our rights to express ourselves, I just don't agree with it regarding flag burning.

It is, but what has happened is the Supr. Ct. has struck down anti-flag burning legislation over the years. They would have to draw up a very narrow bill to proscribe flag burning at all. Since the Court can strike down legislation and Congress can "overrule" a Court's holding with a statute aimed at the ruling, what we've had with flag burning is a vicious cycle where a law is struck down, then the leg tries to react again, struck down, so on and so forth...

I just don't understand why you'd want to burn the fuckin flag.

First off, it's not a 'fuckin flag'. Show some respect, Mister!!!

I'm sure you know that burning a flag is the appropriate way to destroy it when it is no longer suitable to be flown. But that is seen as a measure of respect for the symbol that it represents, not a dis to the ideals that we hold dear when we see the flag fly. Flag ceremonies are a touching time to me, and it bothers me a lot when folks are disrespectful during the SSB, pledge, etc.

[donnaplease]

flag burning is protected under the first amendment, like it or not.

I believe the (insane) reasoning behind that is because, unlike cross burning, it is deemed to "not incite a riot or disturb the peace." That needs to change...and it will if *I* ever see it. I would have no problem facing the legal charges, whatever they may be, for punching someone in the face, as hard as I can, engaging in said activity.

Maybe that's what happened in Manassas...

[Ehwmatt]

It is a legitimate question, though, isn't it? This thread may not be the place to discuss it, but it's funny how one thing leads to another. A flag is a sacred symbol to many Americans, and it's desecration to me is simply unexcusable. I understand what Lula's trying to say about our rights to express ourselves, I just don't agree with it regarding flag burning.

It is, but what has happened is the Supr. Ct. has struck down anti-flag burning legislation over the years. They would have to draw up a very narrow bill to proscribe flag burning at all. Since the Court can strike down legislation and Congress can "overrule" a Court's holding with a statute aimed at the ruling, what we've had with flag burning is a vicious cycle where a law is struck down, then the leg tries to react again, struck down, so on and so forth...

I just don't understand why you'd want to burn the fuckin flag.

First off, it's not a 'fuckin flag'. Show some respect, Mister!!!

I'm sure you know that burning a flag is the appropriate way to destroy it when it is no longer suitable to be flown. But that is seen as a measure of respect for the symbol that it represents, not a dis to the ideals that we hold dear when we see the flag fly. Flag ceremonies are a touching time to me, and it bothers me a lot when folks are disrespectful during the SSB, pledge, etc.

Right, context is everything... as it is with everything symbolic. Ironic, "symbolic speech" is the language the Court used to justify its holding...

[Lula]

for the last time- i'm simply stating a supreme court ruling, not condoning the act. not like that will get through some of the thick skulls here. for the record i have not, will not, ever, burn the flag. i don't know anyone that has ever burned the flag. my dad used to fly the flag from our front porch. i have family that have served in the military. i'm not a card carrying member of the aclu. i'm not a communist. geez, anything else?

[Blueskies]

I just don't understand why you'd want to burn the fuckin flag.

Some might call it.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissent

and the definition of the word........................


dissent  /dɪˈsɛnt/



–verb (used without object) 1. to differ in sentiment or opinion, esp. from the majority; withhold assent; disagree (often fol. by from): Two of the justices dissented from the majority decision.
2. to disagree with the methods, goals, etc., of a political party or government; take an opposing view.
3. to disagree with or reject the doctrines or authority of an established church.

–noun 4. difference of sentiment or opinion.
5. dissenting opinion.
6. disagreement with the philosophy, methods, goals, etc., of a political party or government.
7. separation from an established church, esp. the Church of England; nonconformity.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Origin:
1400–50; late ME dissenten (< MF dissentir) < L dissentīre, equiv. to dis- dis- 1 + sentīre to feel

Related forms:

dis⋅sent⋅ing⋅ly, adverb


Synonyms:
4, 6. disagreement, dissatisfaction, opposition. Dissent, dissidence mean disagreement with the majority opinion. Dissent may express either withholding of agreement or open disagreement. Dissidence, formerly much the same as dissent, has come to suggest not only strong dissatisfaction but a determined opposition.

[donnaplease]

for the last time- i'm simply stating a supreme court ruling, not condoning the act. not like that will get through some of the thick skulls here. for the record i have not, will not, ever, burn the flag. i don't know anyone that has ever burned the flag. my dad used to fly the flag from our front porch. i have family that have served in the military. i'm not a card carrying member of the aclu. i'm not a communist. geez, anything else?

I know it doesn't seem like it, but I don't think anyone is attacking you, just your argument. As for my skull, it is pretty thick, and right now it feels like someone took a baseball bat to it.

[Lula]

it makes no difference. i'm not arguing the right to burn the flag, just stating the fact that the act is protected under the first amendment. i think it is pathetic the way this thread went, but why should this be any different than any other political subject discussed here .

peace be with the kennedy family as they mourn their loss and with those he championed.

[RaisedOnRadio92]

it makes no difference. i'm not arguing the right to burn the flag, just stating the fact that the act is protected under the first amendment. i think it is pathetic the way this thread went, but why should this be any different than any other political subject discussed here .

peace be with the kennedy family as they mourn their loss and with those he championed.

I think it's B.S that you'd even bring up the fact that flag burning is protected under the first amendment. It just shows how you support raucus and uproarous acts.

Freedom of expression? If I were to express myself by running naked through the streets with the Iraqi flag screaming 'Down with America, all hail to tyrants' Do you believe I deserve to get away with it?

Pure B.S

[Lula]

I think it's B.S that you'd even bring up the fact that flag burning is protected under the first amendment. It just shows how you support raucus and uproarous acts.

Freedom of expression? If I were to express myself by running naked through the streets with the Iraqi flag screaming 'Down with America, all hail to tyrants' Do you believe I deserve to get away with it?

Pure B.S

yeah okay. i only brought up the fact about the constitution because it seemed to be used as a reason to not bury the senator at arlington as if it was a crime or something. just pointing out a fact.

feel free to express yourself however you choose and see how others react, you don't need my permission.

[Arianddu]

It's still a travesty burying this piece of shit among solders that died for the flag that Fat Teddy was so hell bent on allowing people to burn...

Soldiers don't die for a flag. They die for an ideal of protecting their country and their people, or to protect their comrades in arms, sometimes for a political ideal, but most often they die because their job is to be a soldier, and one of the risks is getting killed. They don't want to, they don't expect to, but it's what happens when that is the job you took, for whatever reason. Dress it up with any jingoism you want, but Superman never joined the armed forces, ordinary men (and women) do, for ordinary reasons and not always willingly, and then they are sometimes required to do unbelievable, horrific, heroic and terrible things, one of which is dying. NO ONE dies for a piece of painted cloth, they might die for what it symbolises to them. That burning bit of cloth is also just a symbol, of the anger and the hurt about what a beloved country has been allowed to become.

If Kennedy had stood in front of a bunch of veterans and told them they were murdering scum of the earth, or tried to cut off their benefits, deprive them of their earned rights to health care and support from the government of the country they served (and for all I know, he did) then by all means scream blue murder that he is to be buried with them. But to stand up for a person's right to disagree with their government? To protest at what their nation is doing? To commit a symbolic act that expresses a person's despair at what their nation has become? Funnily enough, that sounds to me like something Americans tend to be pretty proud of as one of their rights - the right to challenge their government and to express their anger and outrage.

But what would I know - I'm just an Aussie who waved goodbye to the man she fell in love with so he could go serve his country in a war zone.

(And before anyone jumps all over me about it - someone wants to burn the Aussie flag or the Union Jack - yup, I'll support their right to do it, but I'll also tell them they're a fucking idiot to do it and there are better ways of going about it. Someone wants to spray paint a swastica over the local taxation office as a form of protest, I'll support their right to do, and I'll support the building owner's right to expect them to pay to get it cleaned off. Someone wants to burn a white cross on my black neighbour's lawn? I hate it with every fibre of my being, but I'll support their right to do it - and absolutely support my neighbour's right to have that person charged with trespass, criminal damage and harrassment, and I'll support the right of any person to make their outrage at the cross-burner known by screaming blue murder - hell, I'll even hand out the rotten eggs.
Protest isn't just about yelling your point of view - it HAS to include accepting the consequences of the action for it to be meaningful, be that criminal punishment, social exclusion, or whatever. You can't have one without the other.)

[Blueskies]

it makes no difference. i'm not arguing the right to burn the flag, just stating the fact that the act is protected under the first amendment. i think it is pathetic the way this thread went, but why should this be any different than any other political subject discussed here .

peace be with the kennedy family as they mourn their loss and with those he championed.

I think it's B.S that you'd even bring up the fact that flag burning is protected under the first amendment. It just shows how you support raucus and uproarous acts.

Freedom of expression? If I were to express myself by running naked through the streets with the Iraqi flag screaming 'Down with America, all hail to tyrants' Do you believe I deserve to get away with it?

Pure B.S

It is your liberty granted you in this country to act according to your own will...in accordance with the law. If your expression of dissent is to do that then you can...as long as the rule of law doesn't apply to any of your conduct not to do so. In the example you give it is against the law to run around naked in most places..and the screaming could be disturbing the peace depending where you are....but not against the law to drape yourself with any flag or cloth you wish and to express a dissenting opinion

So....those that choose to burn a flag out of their expression of dissent have the same liberty to do so...as long as it isn't against the law....and it's not. Flag burning doesn't always mean someone hates their country...it could be seen as an expression by some to show their dissatisfaction of the actions of those that govern...that they may feel that those that are governing are the ones that are going against what the flag is supposed to represent.....as many felt during the Vietnam War.


When it comes to the flag of the country, yes people should have respect for the symbolism that it stands for....but when they have reasons of dissent then that is the way some have chosen to express their dissatifaction....when they strongly disagree with the actions of those that govern. This country was formed from dissent. People revolted to overthrow the governance of Great Britan during the American Revolution. That was dissent...so much so that it led to war to break free from a plutocracy. It went further then expression of anger and dissent by only flag burning..it lead to war to force change and break free.

I ,for one, don't want the right of dissent to be taken away...as our founding fathers didn't as stated in the Bill of Rights they inacted.. They fought out of dissent and the desire to self govern and try to form a more perfect union.