MR

I've heard several people on this board make the comment that an album(ie TBF, ROR)is too ballad heavy or too pop. What do you base that judgement on? I'm not trying to instigate or antagonize. I honestly want to know. What qualifies a song as being "rock" and apposed to "pop"? What do you consider a ballad?

Going back and looking at the tracks of all the Journey albums I can't see a great deal of difference in the content of what I consider to be rock as opposed to ballad or pop except on Frontiers. Their music obviously matured over time. The songs on Infinity weren't as musically or lyrically complex as those on TBF, but the balance of rock to ballad, or what I consider as such, didn't change that much.

I was going to list, by album, the songs that I consider to be rock as opposed to ballad but that would make one of those tediously long posts. Can someone, or preferably some of you, give me some examples of the difference as you see it?

The change, I feel, is most noticeable from Frontiers to ROR. However, with the popularity of Escape's Open Arms even Frontiers showed palpable signs of having had it's ballad quota conciously increased.

This is a good topic. I too would like to see some compare/contrast lists.

Part of the problem is that everyone's view of what is a ballad and what is not may vary.

This is a really tough question, mostly because of the definition of 'ballad'.
Journey has always had ballads. BUT before Escape, those ballads were not the simple, sentimental "I love you", "I miss you", I can't live without you" mushy love ballads. After Escape they were. Who's Crying Now was not that type of ballad, but of course Open Arms was. On Frontiers Faithfully and Send Her My Love were. Jon Cain was the shift. And with that shift, came the 'pop' Love balladry that Journey became known for. Frontiers was saved on 'side 2' with the rock and experimental touches. But side 1 obviously was geared more toward the commercial "pop" rock audience. THEN came ROR. With very little guitar, very little "4 on the floor" drum beat, ROR was painfully obviously a pop record. The players were essentially the same. But the music was written with the sole intention of radio play...TOP 40 radio play.

Now 'pop' of course stands for 'popular'. So you can say that anything with a large acceptance is 'pop'. But Escape was not 'pop'. It was a rock record that gained wide acceptance. ROR was written for that wide acceptance. That's the big difference in my book. Early ballads were written for the mood, slow or quiet. Emotional, open. That, to me, is where a song like "Beyond The Clouds" from "Generations" fits. That song could easily have come off "Infinity". It is moody, atmospheric, wide open. This is done becuase it feels good, not because it is supposed to be that way (like the lovey-dovey ballads are).

So, before Escape you had slow songs (ballads).
Escape basically had one of each.
Frontiers had two (lovey-dovey) ballads.
ROR is different altogether, but almost ALL the music was lovey-dovey.
TBF was a return to ballads of both kinds.
Arrival was full of lovey-dovey ballads. So much so that it detracted from the balance of the CD.
Generations is again a return. Better Life is not a lovey-dovey ballad, but it is a slow song about life together. Beyond The Clouds is not a lovey-dovey either. But Knowing That You Love Me is. Walking Away From The Edge (Red 13) is also not a lovey-dovey ballad.
That is a big part of the reason Journey sounds like it has returned to it's roots.



Did I even answer the question?

Winds of March isn't a ballad, Something to Hide is a ballad. I'm Cryin' is a ballad, but Good Morning Girl isn't...Too Late isn't a ballad. I'm playing fast and loose with my definition of the ballad, but I think there is a definite difference between ballad and slow rock song. Jonathan Cain definitely upped the ballad quotient on Escape and his writing style is more of the syrupy love song sort of ballad. Trial By Fire and Arrival are the only Journey records I would call "ballad-heavy." Just because Raised on Radio had a different sound, I don't think it was ballad heavy.

I kind of go by the tempo of the song.

If it has a faster tempo, and a lot of guitars, then it's a rocker. ESCAPE, STONE IN LOVE, HIGHER PLACE, SEPARATE WAYS... those are all rockers.

If the song has a slower tempo, more focus on keys, more focus on lyricism and melody, then it's a ballad. OPEN ARMS, FAITHFULLY, LIGHTS, etc.

ohsherrie wrote: What qualifies a song as being "rock" and apposed to "pop"? What do you consider a ballad?

Can someone, or preferably some of you, give me some examples of the difference as you see it?

GREAT thread, ohsherrie!

Don't know if I'm hitting this on the head, but here goes: My definition of a "pop" and "non-pop" ballad:

IMO, a "ballad" is a slow song with feelings and emotions that is a kind of "wild card" on an album - not meant to be "pop" - i.e. "Sandcastles" from DAD. Now, I realize that this soundtrack is not widely known, since it was for a Japanese movie. So, I'll pick one from a "domestic" release:

"Good Morning Girl". Never heard it on any radio station. PHENOMINAL song, in my book. But, the "Powers That Be" could not "pigeon-hole" it into one of their formats. So, that is a "non-pop-oriented ballad", IMO.

Since "pop" is a musical term short for "popular", a "pop ballad" is meant for acceptance of the masses, and CAN be fit into a radio format - i.e.:

Open Arms, Faithfully, Send Her My Love, Still They Ride, Why Can't This Night Go On Forever.......very good songs, but nonetheless, very SAFE songs....songs for the "masses"......you see?

So....how'd I do??

Thank you all. I appreciate the diversity of the responses because they accentuate the differences in preferences and opinions on this subject. To me, basically, a slow tempo song is a ballad and a faster one isn't. There are some exceptions though, especially in Journey's music. For instance, Easy to Fall isn't what I would call a ballad, and it's not an up tempo song, but it has a classic rock tempo. Patiently is part ballad and part rock. In some ways I think the term "rock ballad" creates a whole new catagory. Winds of March, Lights, Sweet and Simple, LTS, Faithfully, WCTNGOF, and Don't Be Down on Me, are technically ballads, but not really. If that makes any sense.

You did great sngrchk.

IMO, a ballad is a love song. Every slow song is not a ballad. For example, I wouldn't call Tears in Heaven a ballad.

It really is quite subjective....

I describe ROR as being poppy because anyone could listen to any part of it and tell you the time period.

For the melodic rock I listen to - I usually put a song into 4 main categories:
1) Rocker (Ex. Out of Harms Way)
2) Mid-tempo (Signs of Life)
3) Ballad (Butterfly)
4) Other (Livin to Do)

Living To Do: Blues or BluesRock, something JRNY does insanely well when they choose to dabble in it. For an album that many people say is something that attempted to appease Columbia, where did THAT amazing tune come from?

Good morning, Red13.

There are so many ways to classify music, it's crazy. Livin' to Do is a great tune. Is that the one Neal wrote after his father died?

Unless I am mistaken it was indeed NealIsGod.
I mean LISTEN to it. Cain rules on the outro of that. Channeling the Greg days on the Hammond....