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It was recently reported here on MR.com that the band members of Heaven & Earth changed their minds on their initial selection of new lead vocalist, Keith Slack, mainly in part because he is located nowhere near the other band members which would prevent him from contributing to the band full time.
This got me thinking.

Augeri is centered in NY, and the rest of the guys are near/around LA, right?
Do they rely on the fruits of technology to traverse the distance and pool their collective writing ideas? Do they only write during the finite time when they are on tour together?
Or is this just indicative of a much larger problem; a Journey of today that really doesn't care all that much about writing new material?

The fact that Augeri composed 'Believe' with an outsider shows me that everyone is kinda left to their own devices. While Augeri and Neal have occassionally yielded musical gems together, Augeri recently stated [in an Andrew exclusive] that Neal and him composed "Beyond the Clouds" almost by chance.
That they both happened to show up for rehearsal, no one else did, and so they decided on a whim to kick around some ideas to pass the time.
That's great- but shouldn't these sort of sit-down creative sessions happen more routinely?

Neal has gone on at length about the prolific creative relationship that he shares with JSS. That he would send JSS a lick or two, and bam!- JSS would send back lyrics pretty expeditously.
Where is that synergistic rapport in current day Journey?
Is it anywhere to be found?

Discuss.

PS This was not mean to be a bash post, rather an overture hopefully leading to contemplative and objective discussion.

I do think location is an issue. It seems the guys work on their own stuff and then try to put it together when they get together. It also means that they have to decide to get together to write. It becomes about scheduling and travelling. Now I am sure that writing while on tour is cool. Neal or Jon mentioned how Steve was so fired up that he was bringing ideas every night after the show. Of course we know now that those ideas were meant to be solo, but they turned into the creative spark Neal and Jon needed. And yet Jon was not around for the beginning of the 'creative process' for "Generations". So he came into it with ground to make up. Maybe these guys need spark and challenge to really perform. Everything Journey does nowadays seems to be reactive or spontaneous.

jrnyman28 wrote:Everything Journey does nowadays seems to be reactive or spontaneous.

Indeed.

While location can be a problem, I dont think it has to be. Journey basically work only 3-4 months a year. They could plan to get together for a week here and there during the other months and have plenty of opportunity to write. It just means Steve traveling to NorCal where Neal and Jon are, they can afford a plane ticket. The problem is not as much location as motivation or intent. Its not like Neal and Perry hung out together as buddies and wrote songs, they wrote because the were going to do an album. I think Journey used to write in the studio or before going into the studio for that purpose.
This album just seem to happen, not really planned. There used to album/tour/album/tour. They knew what the plan was. We wonder when or if there will be another album, I don't think they're sure themselves.
Even the Schon/Soto method could work--if they are motivated to create Journey music.

NoMoreTails wrote:While location can be a problem, I dont think it has to be. Journey basically work only 3-4 months a year. They could plan to get together for a week here and there during the other months and have plenty of opportunity to write. It just means Steve traveling to NorCal where Neal and Jon are, they can afford a plane ticket. The problem is not as much location as motivation or intent. Its not like Neal and Perry hung out together as buddies and wrote songs, they wrote because the were going to do an album. I think Journey used to write in the studio or before going into the studio for that purpose.
This album just seem to happen, not really planned. There used to album/tour/album/tour. They knew what the plan was. We wonder when or if there will be another album, I don't think they're sure themselves.
Even the Schon/Soto method could work--if they are motivated to create Journey music.

Exactly...MOTIVATION!

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Augeri is centered in NY, and the rest of the guys are near/around LA, right?

Do they rely on the fruits of technology to traverse the distance and pool their collective writing ideas? Do they only write during the finite time when they are on tour together?
Or is this just indicative of a much larger problem; a Journey of today that really doesn't care all that much about writing new material?

Where is that synergistic rapport in current day Journey?
Is it anywhere to be found?

Discuss.

**cracking knuckles before typing**

EXCELLENT THREAD ~ KUDOS!

OK:

I believe that new music is created and expressed "on the fly" - with all members present and accounted for. Even though there IS new technology out there, it just "cans" everything for me, personally.....I mean, what if you come up with a really cool, unique musical idea/melody line - you're REALLY fired-up to do something with it NOW, but you CAN'T....because the "other half" is 3,000 miles away?

Wouldn't that just piss you off?

Would piss ME off.....

sngrchk04 wrote:.....I mean, what if you come up with a really cool, unique musical idea/melody line - you're REALLY fired-up to do something with it NOW, but you CAN'T....because the "other half" is 3,000 miles away?

Wouldn't that just piss you offchk?

Would piss ME off.....

Excellent point, Nora.
I recall reading stories of Perry or Jon or Neal coming up with a melody or a chorus or a lick and then rushing to Cain's house to polish it off together.
Where is that base of operations today?

sngrchk04 wrote:

The_Noble_Cause wrote:Augeri is centered in NY, and the rest of the guys are near/around LA, right?

Do they rely on the fruits of technology to traverse the distance and pool their collective writing ideas? Do they only write during the finite time when they are on tour together?
Or is this just indicative of a much larger problem; a Journey of today that really doesn't care all that much about writing new material?

Where is that synergistic rapport in current day Journey?
Is it anywhere to be found?

Discuss.

**cracking knuckles before typing**

EXCELLENT THREAD ~ KUDOS!

OK:

I believe that new music is created and expressed "on the fly" - with all members present and accounted for. Even though there IS new technology out there, it just "cans" everything for me, personally.....I mean, what if you come up with a really cool, unique musical idea/melody line - you're REALLY fired-up to do something with it NOW, but you CAN'T....because the "other half" is 3,000 miles away?

Wouldn't that just piss you off?

Would piss ME off.....

Well, that may be partialy true. But, they were supposed to be writing stuff on tour. So, they had plenty of time to do things 'together'.

I think a huge part of the problem was revealed when Jonathan said he was very put off with the process after Arrival ended up on Napster. It sounded like he simply quit writing. Jonathan always seemed like the glue that bound the Journey sound together. He was cowriter of EVERY song from Escape to TBF...I think there may be one or two songs on TBF that he's not on - but not many. Having Jonathan unmotivated, and a guy who nobody really has any experience writing with, has to make the entire process a bit of a struggle.

Motivation sounds like the perfect word, but who can say why they're lacking it. Maybe they're also missing that old chemistry they(Perry/Cain/Schon)used to have, even if it was often of the explosive kind, and it's just not "clicking" for them the way it used to.

ohsherrie wrote:Motivation sounds like the perfect word, but who can say why they're lacking it. Maybe they're also missing that old chemistry they(Perry/Cain/Schon)used to have, even if it was often of the explosive kind, and it's just not "clicking" for them the way it used to.

Maybe. But I must say that I do not think that is it. I think it has more to do with the realism that Journey will never be back on the hit parade. They ARE without their most recognizable member. They DID take a decade off. The music climate IS VERY different from what it was when they were huge. The guys understand this. And Jon DID mention that the Napster thing really took a lot out of him during that Arrival period. Jon is a major songwriting contributor and integral to the Journey sound. And if his passion is gone, how is a true Journey record going to come about. Neal can write. Steve can write. But will it sound like Journey without Jon's input? Not anymore...

Furthermore, I think the "clicking" is there. Evidenced by the way Neal sparked once Steve started presenting him ideas. Then Jon comes in and BOOM, a cd is written! It simply took a catalyst. This time Steve was the catalyst. Journey no longer has the catalyst of "hits", "fame", "fortune".

I think that it's a simple case of too many cooks, spoiling the broth, when a few of them are not cooks to begin with. I feel that Neals preoccupation with S.S. may have been responsible for the others lacking motivation. I could be wrong.

heardonthestreet wrote:I think that it's a simple case of too many cooks, spoiling the broth, when a few of them are not cooks to begin with.

Elaborate, if u could. If by "cooks" you mean primary song writers, then I'd have to say you're mistaken. Neal, Steve and Jon have all proven themselves to be very capable (especially Jon) in the writing department.
It could be a matter of synergistic chemistry. Maybe they just aren't geling.
I don't think I'd call into question any of their qualifications as respective song writers though.

Augeri, not in my opinion.. A songwriter is a songwriter, is a songwriter. Sinatra only worked on about seven of the songs he sang. Just because you're a musician, dosen't mean you qualify as a songwriter. Anybody can write a song but unless the world wants to hear it, you get egg fu yung.

heardonthestreet wrote:Augeri, not in my opinion.. A songwriter is a songwriter, is a songwriter.....Just because you're a musician, dosen't mean you qualify as a songwriter. Anybody can write a song but unless the world wants to hear it, you get egg fu yung.

You're conflating two issues: popularity and talent.
Perry was a song writer and a superlative singer long before excelling to fame with Journey.
You don't need to be exceedingly reknowed to be a musician.
I fail to see you're point.

Cain has lost whatever he had and I think what he had was Perry. He objects to what Perry was leaning toward and he writes junk like Arrival's lyrics?

Pull up Arrival's lyrics, Noble Cause, and read the magic of Cain. Talk about sappy lost love lyrics. It's a joke.

Cain's a has been, if he every was.

heardonthestreet wrote:Cain has lost whatever he had and I think what he had was Perry. He objects to what Perry was leaning toward and he writes junk like Arrival's lyrics?

You are totally misreading Jon. Without Jon, Perry never would have had the allie needed for ROR. They shared a vision for pop, radio songs. He is in no way rejecting Perry. He said he became a go-between for Perry's direction and Neal's. Jon actually brought it all together. But Jon has always been full of sentimental BS lyrics. However, If you listen to the lyrics of "Generations" you will see that has been toned down. A vast improvement over Arrival.

heardonthestreet wrote:Cain has lost whatever he had and I think what he had was Perry.

Cain is a masterful lyricist. 'Generations' shows him doing what he does best: writing about the plight of the little people.
At long last he's writing again about germane, topical content; Iraq, parenting, religion in times of crisis and doubt.
With Sony out of the picture, he is no longer pigeon-holed into rigidly adhereing to a boy meets girl bubble gum balladry template.

heardonthestreet wrote:He objects to what Perry was leaning toward and he writes junk like Arrival's lyrics?

Yeah some of Arrival's material is needlessly sacharrine.
However, there is some very valid stuff there.
Especially so on the Cain/Schon/Blades collaborations.

heardonthestreet wrote:Pull up Arrival's lyrics, Noble Cause, and read the magic of Cain. Talk about sappy lost love lyrics. It's a joke.

Ok. So Two or three of the songs are exceedingly sappy. But it's no more egregious than Perry's solo lovey-dovey blunders like "Summer of Luv" or "Against the Wall".
And I bet u absolutely love those, don't you, HOTS?

heardonthestreet wrote:Cain's a has been, if he every was.

Man, u just have it out for everyone, don't you?
In HOTS's world, if ur name's not Steve Perry u are automatically dismissed as a talentless hack.
As far as I'm concerned, JC's writing aptitude is impervious to questioning.

If any member of this band has proven to have an inimitable faculty for writing, it would have to be Jonathan Cain.
Bar none.

ohsherrie wrote:Motivation sounds like the perfect word, but who can say why they're lacking it. Maybe they're also missing that old chemistry they(Perry/Cain/Schon)used to have, even if it was often of the explosive kind, and it's just not "clicking" for them the way it used to.

Even if Perry were in the band and the band were in the same frame as they were in 1983, that 'chemistry' would not be there if Jonathan were so discouraged by the process. Even your beloved ROR has a MAJOR influence from Jonathan.

It is not the presence of Perry that is lacking. It is the band working as a unit towards a common goal, with everybody stepping up and doing more then their part. THAT is what made Journey's music so great prior to ROR.

heardonthestreet wrote:Cain has lost whatever he had and I think what he had was Perry.

Then explain how he helped put Michael Bolton on the map with "The Hunger". Explain how he intriduced Jimmy Barnes to the US. Explain how Bad English's first album had as many hit singles as a Journey album.

He objects to what Perry was leaning toward and he writes junk like Arrival's lyrics?

As apposed to Perry repeating "Somewhere There's Hope" a dozen times and calling it a 'song'? Come on. There is nothing wrong with the lyrics on Arrival - and Perry is NOT a genius when it comes to lyrics, and never has been. Remember, half of "Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin'" is an intrumental.

Monker wrote:

ohsherrie wrote:Motivation sounds like the perfect word, but who can say why they're lacking it. Maybe they're also missing that old chemistry they(Perry/Cain/Schon)used to have, even if it was often of the explosive kind, and it's just not "clicking" for them the way it used to.

Even if Perry were in the band and the band were in the same frame as they were in 1983, that 'chemistry' would not be there if Jonathan were so discouraged by the process. Even your beloved ROR has a MAJOR influence from Jonathan.

It is not the presence of Perry that is lacking. It is the band working as a unit towards a common goal, with everybody stepping up and doing more then their part. THAT is what made Journey's music so great prior to ROR.

The non-presence of Perry is what's lacking Monker...now put your head back in the sand...

OpeningAct wrote:The non-presence of Perry is what's lacking Monker..

On Generations, the non-presence of Perry is abundant. If Perry were there, most of the songs would not have been recorded because he doesn't have the voice to sing them any longer. If Perry were there the tour would have never happened therefore the CD would have never been given away. If Perry were there, a DVD would not have been recorded because he is too embaressed by his voice to release it on DVD.

If Perry were still there, there would no albums or tours after TBF, and people like you would still be waiting for the TBF tour that he said in interviews would happen because his hip was fine.

So, the non-presence of Perry is definitely NOT lacking.

jrnyman28 wrote:Then Jon comes in and BOOM, a cd is written! It simply took a catalyst. This time Steve was the catalyst. Journey no longer has the catalyst of "hits", "fame", "fortune".

I guess you can say that's true IF you really think most of the songs on Arrival and Generation are of the quality of most of the ones that were on the earlier albums.

Monker wrote:It is not the presence of Perry that is lacking. It is the band working as a unit towards a common goal, with everybody stepping up and doing more then their part. THAT is what made Journey's music so great prior to ROR.

So do you think just anyone could have written those Journey songs that you love if they had Jon among them and worked hard enough on it? IMO some of their best songwriting is on ROR. Second only to TBF. The songs on those two albums just said more than most of the songs on most of the earlier albums. (Speaking collectively, not song for song.)

In another post you mentioned Somewhere There's Hope. Do you not think Missing You, You Better Wait, Anyway, and the title track FTLOSM are good songs? If not, I guess it's just another instance of a difference in musical taste, because it think they're fabulous. We're not discussing hits right now, just songwriting.

You also mentioned LTS. It wasn't the instrumental parts that made it a fun song to hear, it was the story that it told and the way it was presented. Lights said quite a lot within a great melody.

Many may give Perry more credit than he is due for songs where Cain's contribution was probably more than Perry's.
IMO, Augeri's writing prior to Journey is more impressive than Perry's outside of Journey. Even though Perry always sought out some of the biggest name writers to help on his solo stuff. Perhaps Monker will supply the details of a statement one of the writers made about Perry giving some direction and expecting someone else to do the work and having to share credit with Perry.
And LTS, Perry's biggest sole writing credit with Journey is a largely borrowed from Sam Cooke. IMO the instrumentation (Neal) of LTS is the only thing that makes it listenable.

ohsherrie wrote:I guess you can say that's true IF you really think most of the songs on Arrival and Generation are of the quality of most of the ones that were on the earlier albums.

I do think the quality is there, especially on "Generations". I think the song selection and track order would greatly improve "Arrival" AND "Generations". But individually, I think the work on these 2 CDs is equivelent to the work of the 80's. Not every song on "Escape" or "Frontiers" was'perfect' and that is still true today. I think it is the production of these songs that hurts them more than anything else.

ohsherrie wrote:So do you think just anyone could have written those Journey songs that you love if they had Jon among them and worked hard enough on it? IMO some of their best songwriting is on ROR.

Much of that is due to Jon. He and Perry had the same vision of writing music to be heard on the radio.

ohsherrie wrote:In another post you mentioned Somewhere There's Hope. Do you not think Missing You, You Better Wait, Anyway, and the title track FTLOSM are good songs?

But how many co-writer's did Perry have for those songs? I never cared for Somewhere There's Hope or FTLOSM but I enjoy the other tracks you listed. I HATE "I Am". But when I listen to the FTLOSM CD I here what Perry was 'trying' to do but did not accomplish. That solo CD was truly the first time I ever listened to a CD (especially a Journey or Journey related CD) and heard things that should have been done differently.

ohsherrie wrote:You also mentioned LTS. It wasn't the instrumental parts that made it a fun song to hear, it was the story that it told and the way it was presented.

LTS' strength is the instrumental portion of the song. The lyrics are very simple. They fit the song, but really...half the song is "Na Na Nana Na Na". there is not much substance to this song. Perry did a good job presenting the 'story' in a very simple manner. And that was effectively supported by the solid blues base of the song. But I truly believe that the main reason LTS still has a life is the instrumental portion of the song...especially LIVE.

ohsherrie wrote:Lights said quite a lot within a great melody.

True.

NoMoreTails wrote:Many may give Perry more credit than he is due for songs where Cain's contribution was probably more than Perry's.

But we will never know.

NoMoreTails wrote:IMO, Augeri's writing prior to Journey is more impressive than Perry's outside of Journey.

I completely agree. I think Tall Stories is a MUCH better CD than FTLOSM. But it is a toss-up against Street Talk. I really did enjoy that CD for what it was. Tall Stories would probably get my nod only based on the style of music I prefer.

NoMoreTails wrote:Perhaps Monker will supply the details of a statement one of the writers made about Perry giving some direction and expecting someone else to do the work and having to share credit with Perry.

Monker is probably tired of mentioning it. But I would like the details again as I have forgotten who it was making the claim. I think it was Cliff Magness.

NoMoreTails wrote:And LTS, Perry's biggest sole writing credit with Journey is a largely borrowed from Sam Cooke. IMO the instrumentation (Neal) of LTS is the only thing that makes it listenable.

I think the term "listenanble" is a bit strong. And I don't see a problem with utilizing Sam Cooke's influences. But it is worth mentioning that much of Perry's talent comes from his influences.

For the most part, aren't the band's lyric writing a collaborative effort between Cain and Augeri or Cain and Perry back in the day?
I mean for the most part with some contributions from Schon...

jrnyman28 wrote:

NoMoreTails wrote:Many may give Perry more credit than he is due for songs where Cain's contribution was probably more than Perry's.

But we will never know.

True, and the only comment I've seen Cain make was regarding needing to write the verses of BGTY and not being able to get Perry to help as he was busy with producing duties.
I am of course speculating based on the quality of Perry's work songwriting-wise outside Journey vs Cain's. Perry has never been sought out by other artists for his songwriting skills to the extent Jon has.

jrnyman28 wrote:[I think the term "listenanble" is a bit strong. And I don't see a problem with utilizing Sam Cooke's influences. But it is worth mentioning that much of Perry's talent comes from his influences.

I agree my statement may be a bit extreme. I'm just growing tired of it I guess, although it is a good one to jam on live and for audience participation.
It was interesting how JSS segued from the Cooke song into LTS in the Soul Sirkus shows, it showed how similar LTS is to it. Thats something Journey should do.

jrnyman28 wrote:But how many co-writer's did Perry have for those songs? I never cared for Somewhere There's Hope or FTLOSM but I enjoy the other tracks you listed. I HATE "I Am". But when I listen to the FTLOSM CD I here what Perry was 'trying' to do but did not accomplish. That solo CD was truly the first time I ever listened to a CD (especially a Journey or Journey related CD) and heard things that should have been done differently.

Tim Miner contributed to Missing You and Anyway. The entire Strange Medicine band is listed for YGW and FTLOSM. On the Missing You writing session(full one)it sounds as if Tim suppied the keyboard and Steve the lyrics. I love the overall sound of I Am even though some of the lyrics leave me a little confused about what he's saying. For me, it's a close tie between FTLOSM and TBF for my alltime favorite album. The production quality and the overall collection of material is better on TBF, but there's no song on it that moves me as much as FTLOSM and Missing You.

LTS' strength is the instrumental portion of the song. The lyrics are very simple. They fit the song, but really...half the song is "Na Na Nana Na Na". there is not much substance to this song. Perry did a good job presenting the 'story' in a very simple manner. And that was effectively supported by the solid blues base of the song. But I truly believe that the main reason LTS still has a life is the instrumental portion of the song...especially LIVE.

I disagree with you here, but that's not surprising since you are a lot more into the instrumentation than I am. For me it's more about the bluesy sound of Steve's voice as he tells the story through the lyrics and the melody. The NaNaNanas just make it more fun. I love the live version on GHL even more that the studio version, but it's because of the "Do ya love me baby?" intro. Sometimes I even skip through the long instrumentals at the end. Rock instrumentals just really aren't my thing.


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NoMoreTails wrote:Many may give Perry more credit than he is due for songs where Cain's contribution was probably more than Perry's.

I don't think any of us really knows that, but in many interviews Jon has had some good things to say about Steve's songwriting abities.

Even though Perry always sought out some of the biggest name writers to help on his solo stuff.

Why wouldn't he? Didn't Jon have some help outside the band on Arrival and Generations? Did that happen on any other Journey albums? Not that I necessarily think that's bad, it's just that we're comparing the songwriting procedurers during the time of Classic Journey as opposed to the way the current band does it.

Perhaps Monker will supply the details of a statement one of the writers made about Perry giving some direction and expecting someone else to do the work and having to share credit with Perry.

I can't say that didn't happen because I wasn't there. Of course it could have, but if it did, we don't know the circumstances that may have come into play during the session. I do know that people say a lot of things for a lot of reasons. That doesn't necessarily mean they're precisely true from the point of view of everyone involved, or reflective of normal circumstances.

ohsherrie wrote:

Even though Perry always sought out some of the biggest name writers to help on his solo stuff.

Why wouldn't he? Didn't Jon have some help outside the band on Arrival and Generations? Did that happen on any other Journey albums? Not that I necessarily think that's bad, it's just that we're comparing the songwriting procedurers during the time of Classic Journey as opposed to the way the current band does it..

Of course he would, I'm just saying he had to to replace Jonathan's (very likely greater than half) input.
My point was that I think Augeri's writing outside Journey was better than Perry's.
Journey's outside help wiith Arrival with the exception of Jack Blades was for the most part a mistake, thanks JDK...most of those songs should not have made the album (All The Way). Outside writers is not needed anymore than it was while Perry was in the band.
The lyrics on most of Generations has more substance than most of the Cain/Perry era. As far as the music, Neal and Jon are both still there. Other than melody I doubt Perry had much to do with writing the music in most cases.

ohsherrie wrote: I do know that people say a lot of things for a lot of reasons. That doesn't necessarily mean they're precisely true from the point of view of everyone involved, or reflective of normal circumstances.

NoMoreTails wrote:Of course he would, I'm just saying he had to to replace Jonathan's (very likely greater than half) input.
My point was that I think Augeri's writing outside Journey was better than Perry's.

I don't know why you think Jon did the bigger part of the writing, but since I can't prove he didn't I'll just let that go, and I had never heard of Augeri before he joined the band, so I can't comment on that either.

Outside writers is not needed anymore than it was while Perry was in the band.

Sorry, I thought I'd read somewhere on here that they had outside writing on this one too.

The lyrics on most of Generations has more substance than most of the Cain/Perry era. As far as the music, Neal and Jon are both still there. Other than melody I doubt Perry had much to do with writing the music in most cases.

I haven't heard all of Generations(still waiting on my CD from Deano), what I've heard was pretty good, I just don't think they measure up to the standards of most Perry era material. But then, that's just my opinion, to each his own.

Again, I don't know why you think Steve contributed so little to the mix. I think he probably, in most cases, provided a lot of the hooks, melodies and lyrics, Neal provided the guitar work and the bridges, and Jon tied them together. Like a lot of popular songwriters, Steve doesn't formally read or write music, I don't think Neal does either, so I'm sure Jon provided a lot of the technical expertise where it was needed. Like they said in an ROR interview, Steve was the melodic, Neal the rock dog, and Jon was Amadeus.