Why is this whole vocals thing news?

[livin2do]

I just wanted to make a comment about all the rumors going around about Journey's vocals during live performances. This is actually something I remembered from the interview I did with Herbie Herbert back in 2001. He said, in the 3rd section of the interview:

"Jon Cain has struggled to sing as well as he sings today. Today he sings better than he has ever sung, and it's barely, barely adequate. It sounds good because there's a computer singing along with him. It's not natural. They're playing to a click-track at all times in the Journey performances now."

Obviously, I am a huge fan of Journey. They have always been the kind of band that wants to sound perfect, and when people go to their shows, that's what they expect. If they are trying to enhance the fan experience by augmenting the vocals to match the fans' high expectations, then I don't see what is so wrong with that. I don't think this is some Milli Vanilli-type scandal. I think this is Journey taking advantage of something many performers do as they age, which is getting help when they need it.

Let me give you an example. If you've ever heard Paul McCartney's live album, Tripping the Live Fantastic, and you listen to the version of "Got to Get You into My Life" that is found there, it is bordering on painful. His voice cracks throughout the song. To this day, I still can't believe they didn't overdub that before putting it out. And that was in 1990! Now, I saw McCartney on tour last year. He performed that song during that show. I was bracing myself for the high notes, expecting to hear the flat notes that were present in his performance 15 years ago. But on this night, he was flawless. On every song. Am I alleging that McCartney may be getting help? Maybe so. But you know what? It was still one of the best concerts I've ever been to.

With ticket prices as high as they are, don't artists owe it to their fans to give them the best possible experience for their dollar? Should the artist pack it in, or replace members, because they - due to unavoidable physical limitations - might sound better on one night than they do on the next? I think if it came out how many acts were using the technology available nowadays, there wouldn't be much controversy over this topic at all.

Thoughts?

[bionic]

I just wanted to make a comment about all the rumors going around about Journey's vocals during live performances. This is actually something I remembered from the interview I did with Herbie Herbert back in 2001. He said, in the 3rd section of the interview:

"Jon Cain has struggled to sing as well as he sings today. Today he sings better than he has ever sung, and it's barely, barely adequate. It sounds good because there's a computer singing along with him. It's not natural. They're playing to a click-track at all times in the Journey performances now."

Obviously, I am a huge fan of Journey. They have always been the kind of band that wants to sound perfect, and when people go to their shows, that's what they expect. If they are trying to enhance the fan experience by augmenting the vocals to match the fans' high expectations, then I don't see what is so wrong with that. I don't think this is some Milli Vanilli-type scandal. I think this is Journey taking advantage of something many performers do as they age, which is getting help when they need it.

Let me give you an example. If you've ever heard Paul McCartney's live album, Tripping the Live Fantastic, and you listen to the version of "Got to Get You into My Life" that is found there, it is bordering on painful. His voice cracks throughout the song. To this day, I still can't believe they didn't overdub that before putting it out. And that was in 1990! Now, I saw McCartney on tour last year. He performed that song during that show. I was bracing myself for the high notes, expecting to hear the flat notes that were present in his performance 15 years ago. But on this night, he was flawless. On every song. Am I alleging that McCartney may be getting help? Maybe so. But you know what? It was still one of the best concerts I've ever been to.

With ticket prices as high as they are, don't artists owe it to their fans to give them the best possible experience for their dollar? Should the artist pack it in, or replace members, because they - due to unavoidable physical limitations - might sound better on one night than they do on the next? I think if it came out how many acts were using the technology available nowadays, there wouldn't be much controversy over this topic at all.

Thoughts?

Maybe they down tuned a little for Mcartney to help him along. If you are happy with lipping or whatever thats fine for the most a lot pf people just have the greatest hits of the band they like and as long as they play that they are happy.
But and this is a big BUT some people are not happy with that ,me being one.I go to a live show to be entertained and to admire musicians and their talent.
In the case of Jouney why not get Steve Perry back and lip all the shows they would make a lot more money than they are making,or maybe Perry feels this is cheating the fans and he wants to really sing if he came back.
Some help on stage is fine backing vocals,de tuning to help a singer.If its mime then its not live,its about the freedom to choose and some people choose not to watch lipping,there is no talent in that.I can do that learn a set and get up and lip to a pro tool soundtrack.Thats what makes musicians a joy to watch for some their talent.Anyone can mime thats not a talent!

[bionic]

I just wanted to make a comment about all the rumors going around about Journey's vocals during live performances. This is actually something I remembered from the interview I did with Herbie Herbert back in 2001. He said, in the 3rd section of the interview:

"Jon Cain has struggled to sing as well as he sings today. Today he sings better than he has ever sung, and it's barely, barely adequate. It sounds good because there's a computer singing along with him. It's not natural. They're playing to a click-track at all times in the Journey performances now."

Obviously, I am a huge fan of Journey. They have always been the kind of band that wants to sound perfect, and when people go to their shows, that's what they expect. If they are trying to enhance the fan experience by augmenting the vocals to match the fans' high expectations, then I don't see what is so wrong with that. I don't think this is some Milli Vanilli-type scandal. I think this is Journey taking advantage of something many performers do as they age, which is getting help when they need it.

Let me give you an example. If you've ever heard Paul McCartney's live album, Tripping the Live Fantastic, and you listen to the version of "Got to Get You into My Life" that is found there, it is bordering on painful. His voice cracks throughout the song. To this day, I still can't believe they didn't overdub that before putting it out. And that was in 1990! Now, I saw McCartney on tour last year. He performed that song during that show. I was bracing myself for the high notes, expecting to hear the flat notes that were present in his performance 15 years ago. But on this night, he was flawless. On every song. Am I alleging that McCartney may be getting help? Maybe so. But you know what? It was still one of the best concerts I've ever been to.

With ticket prices as high as they are, don't artists owe it to their fans to give them the best possible experience for their dollar? Should the artist pack it in, or replace members, because they - due to unavoidable physical limitations - might sound better on one night than they do on the next? I think if it came out how many acts were using the technology available nowadays, there wouldn't be much controversy over this topic at all.

Thoughts?

I thought of another example would you like to watch a CGI football game,imagine if you will, you wont know the score and you will see some amazing skills and a game to remember.There is no talent its all computor graphics and CGI. Players can look and play as good as they want them.Or would you rather watch real athletes play make mistakes but know that it is a real! Thats what makes the diffrence.
Its the same with music,or will we just let computors take over live shows then it will get to the point you wint need to evan play just act.

[TRAGChick]

I thought of another example would you like to watch a CGI football game,imagine if you will, you wont know the score and you will see some amazing skills and a game to remember.There is no talent its all computor graphics and CGI. Players can look and play as good as they want them.Or would you rather watch real athletes play make mistakes but know that it is a real! Thats what makes the diffrence.

Its the same with music,or will we just let computors take over live shows then it will get to the point you wint need to evan play just act.

HELL NO!!!

[*Laura]

What saddens me the most is that lately we are living in such a twisted world. All the beautiful,honest feelings and things are rapidly replaced by lies,greed and hypocrisy.
Unfortunately,that goes with everything whether it’s about relationships, music, work or other situations in general.
Everything that’s genuine and heartfelt has to be minimized.
Honest people are considered fools,the truth is getting you in trouble…Morality is slowly dying.What a shame.
Right…Who cares?
Well I do.I have only one life to live and I want to make every effort to be a decent,good-willed person.So yes,I expect that in return.

I think it is wrong for a band to deceive their audience.I am paying for a real product with real money.
Just as I have worked my butt off to earn that money,I expect the artist to work for me too.The quality of the show is not the issue.
I will appreciate more the fact that they are doing their job the best they can for real,than being thrilled about an artificial act.

I for one am stubborn enough to believe that there is still time to save what’s left.
I prefer to be a person who thinks that there still is a trace of integrity left in people no matter what their line of work might be.

[Rock Fn]

I was at the Warfield show a few years ago and It was the first time they did MF. During the chorus all of a sudden the vocals soared and Steve quit singing, but the note continued. The people behind me asked. " Is he lip syncing ?" I didn't think much of it at the time, but now I'm wondering what's going on. The silence is defining from the Journey camp.

I love Journey and hope they address the situation soon. They can continue to delete threads, but It's spreading like wild fire. Dean wasn't the first person to bring this up, the topic was raised a few years ago..

Peace..

[Rockindeano]

MF? You probably heard Deen singing it. Then again, the warfield was NEVER released was it?

[Rock Fn]

No, It was SA. It was the first time they performed it. No way that show was ever going to be released, there was only a few cameras recording. It was a great show though, Sammy even made a guest appearance.

[Red13JoePa]

MF? You probably heard Deen singing it. Then again, the warfield was NEVER released was it?

Nope this was actually Augeri doing MF that night, wasn't it, Dave28? Deen's doing it most of the time now though.

Deano, weren't you at the Warf. that night?

[*Laura]

I was at the Warfield show a few years ago and It was the first time they did MF. During the chorus all of a sudden the vocals soared and Steve quit singing, but the note continued. The people behind me asked. " Is he lip syncing ?" I didn't think much of it at the time, but now I'm wondering what's going on. The silence is defining from the Journey camp.

Interesting.
Perhaps something was really going on.That's what others say too:

"My wife and I flew down from Portland for the show since I knew it would probably be a once in a lifetime type of show, and I definitely echo all the positive reviews that have been posted so far. I've been to Journey shows since the late 70's, and the highlights for me were definitely getting to see the older material played again. But I do have a question I'm curious if anyone knows the answer to, and that is why were the cd vocal tracks for "We Will Meet Again" being played over the live vocals? I'm sure other people must have noticed this. Steve was either lip-synching or was singing along to the cd vocal tracks. But additionally, the background vocal tracks were being played as well. Was it because of all the sound problems they were having on stage? It was clear throughout the show that they were having troubles with their monitors, and possibly even Steve's microphone. But to the band's credit, despite their monitor problems, the sound out in the crowd was excellent. My wife seemed to think there may have been lip-synching on more than this one song, but I only caught it for sure on "We Will Meet Again." Anyone have any other details on this?
- Steve
Portland, OR
(6:49:32 pm PDT - April 29, 2003) "

The post above can be found here http://www.journeymusic.com/ontheroad/reviewshow.php?venue=119

[EightyRock]

This post was from 2003??? This is not cool.

[Rock Fn]

I feel bad for SA. He's a very nice, humble man. What I don't understand is why the guys do not give him some time off. The man is pushing 50 doing 60 plus shows a year? If his voice is shot, no wonder. That would be tough for anyone. They need to give him a break so his vocal chords can heal. Journey really needs to take a break. I hope is voice is not shot and Journey is not doing something they shouldn't be.

[Liz22562]

Before a few of you have the BALLS to scream hypocrisy about anyone else, you better take are very deep, dark look at yourself.

[Mandi]

Joined: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 1

Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 2:34 am Post subject: Why is this whole vocals thing news?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I just wanted to make a comment about all the rumors going around about Journey's vocals during live performances. This is actually something I remembered from the interview I did with Herbie Herbert back in 2001. He said, in the 3rd section of the interview:

"Jon Cain has struggled to sing as well as he sings today. Today he sings better than he has ever sung, and it's barely, barely adequate. It sounds good because there's a computer singing along with him. It's not natural. They're playing to a click-track at all times in the Journey performances now."

Obviously, I am a huge fan of Journey. They have always been the kind of band that wants to sound perfect, and when people go to their shows, that's what they expect. If they are trying to enhance the fan experience by augmenting the vocals to match the fans' high expectations, then I don't see what is so wrong with that. I don't think this is some Milli Vanilli-type scandal. I think this is Journey taking advantage of something many performers do as they age, which is getting help when they need it.

Let me give you an example. If you've ever heard Paul McCartney's live album, Tripping the Live Fantastic, and you listen to the version of "Got to Get You into My Life" that is found there, it is bordering on painful. His voice cracks throughout the song. To this day, I still can't believe they didn't overdub that before putting it out. And that was in 1990! Now, I saw McCartney on tour last year. He performed that song during that show. I was bracing myself for the high notes, expecting to hear the flat notes that were present in his performance 15 years ago. But on this night, he was flawless. On every song. Am I alleging that McCartney may be getting help? Maybe so. But you know what? It was still one of the best concerts I've ever been to.

With ticket prices as high as they are, don't artists owe it to their fans to give them the best possible experience for their dollar? Should the artist pack it in, or replace members, because they - due to unavoidable physical limitations - might sound better on one night than they do on the next? I think if it came out how many acts were using the technology available nowadays, there wouldn't be much controversy over this topic at all.

Thoughts?


This is probably one of the most intelligent, and well thought-out posts I have yet to read on these boards, regarding this subject.
For every person who believes that Journey is doing something immoral, and deceitful there is going to be the equivalent number of people who simply don't care enough about the practice to keep them away from the concerts. If the vocals are taped, and it is looking like some of them may be, but you still enjoy the music, and the band, what is the big deal?
Journey doesn't owe anyone a thing, as no one is putting a gun to anyones head and making them pay the ticket prices to go see them. Its a matter of personal choice. If it bothers you, don't go. If you don't care, then go and have a ball. Life is too short, and this is just nonsense.

[A Fire Inside]

Journey doesn't owe anyone a thing, as no one is putting a gun to anyones head and making them pay the ticket prices to go see them. Its a matter of personal choice. If it bothers you, don't go. If you don't care, then go and have a ball. Life is too short, and this is just nonsense.

Agreed. If this sort of thing is actually keeping you up at night, maybe you need to find new hobbies.

[Pit]

MF? You probably heard Deen singing it. Then again, the warfield was NEVER released was it?

[KittyKat]

Mandi, the majority of people that went to those shows did not know it was lipsyncing therefore there was no choice as to attend their shows and pay money for that. The majority of people buying tickets for this tour did not know this was going on to decide if it's ok with them or not. I realize many don't care or Brittany Spears would've never made a dime so your attitude and outlook does not suit this particular scenario. I personally would chose not to go but that's me.

[Liz22562]

Guess what? There are a few people who post in this forum that went to the concerts in Europe knowing exactly what was being said before they went.

Their reviews were in great praise of Journey.

Your statement holds less weight than you think.

[KittyKat]

Liz if your post is directed to mine all I have to say about that is a "few" knew and chose to go but there were thousands who didn't know and the Europe shows were festivals that included many bands more popular than Journey. Clearly Deano has admitted himself about posting a good review from a show last year that was crappy but gave a great review anyway which is understandable because you make allowances when you are a dedicated fan.

[Liz22562]

So What?

[tammy]

I just have one word and that is "responsibility". Obviously, we love Journey's music, we are invested in it...can we just expect them to tell us the truth about this matter? I hope so, after all the lyrics they sing speak so much about faith & believing. Some of us just want the honest truth and that is all.

[RossValoryRocks]

I just have one word and that is "responsibility". Obviously, we love Journey's music, we are invested in it...can we just expect them to tell us the truth about this matter? I hope so, after all the lyrics they sing speak so much about faith & believing. Some of us just want the honest truth and that is all.

What about the responsibility to not make assertions you cannot prove? How about the responsibility to make sure you can back up your facts with more than internet gossip (See Svante from Google news groups!) before you go throwing them out to the general public and trash a person or in this case a band?

People in another thread talked about Freedom of Speech, but some people don't seem to understand the responsibility that comes with that.

Dean had a responsibility to do more research, to hire an expert even, before posting his allegation, but he didn't, and he has to bear the responsibility of what will happen if this turn out not to be true.

The people who are goading him into doing what he has done, also bear responsibility, however they won't be the ones paying for it in the end.

[Abitaman]

MF? You probably heard Deen singing it. Then again, the warfield was NEVER released was it?

Pittman your pin rules, haven't laughed that hard in ages-ERIC

[KittyKat]

So What?

Say what? Huh?

Many of us are waiting to hear from Journey on the matter and I believe we will. On the other hand I'm not willing to call Deano a liar and fraud either. I don't know him from Adam but I do trust Andrew so we'll see.

I myself am very bothered and torn between the two and what's right and wrong because there are people in the music business making millions who have next to nothing in talent from the beginning and that's not the case with Journey at all so it's a sad state of affairs all around for all of us. If the allegations turn out to be true then I still believe the problem can be fixed and that would be to everyone's liking, no?

I sure don't want Journey ruined but I can also see Deano's point and how torn him and Andrew are over this as well since both were and are fans