How fans only "tolerate" new material

[AR]

Ok this isn't Journey, far from it, but I thought these comments were interesting concerning how veterans bands feel about releasing new albums when they already have a large, well known catalog.

"New KISS music is another matter, however. Stanley says as far as he's concerned, trying to make a new album in the shadow of KISS' classic repertoire is, at the very least, a challenge.

"The fact is, [fans] may tolerate the new songs, but it's the old ones you want to hear," he notes. "I think Jimmy Page and Robert Plant found that out. THE [ROLLING] STONES certainly know it. THE WHO certainly know it. So unless you're willing to go into the studio accepting that how your album will be received will never match your expectations, I'm not sure it's worth the effort"

I disagree with him, and hate how Kiss is only nostalgia right now. However, his comments were pretty insightful IMO and show what Journey or any other veteran band face when recording new music.

[NealIsGod]

Well, AR, as far as new KISS music, how many times can they keep rearranging the same three chords.

[AR]

Well, AR, as far as new KISS music, how many times can they keep rearranging the same three chords.

Ask Angus Young.

[NealIsGod]

Well, AR, as far as new KISS music, how many times can they keep rearranging the same three chords.

Ask Angus Young.

I will, next time I see him.

[Red13JoePa]

...gets on my nerves. Flat out.

The number of artists, JSS being only the most recent I;ve seen, who state that when they play new stuff or even great deep catalogue cuts everybody runs for beers is discouraging.

Concert goer ADD.

[Deb]

Very true AR. Elton John even commented on that last friday at his concert. About 2/3 of the way in he mentioned playing some off the new CD Captain and the Kid.......he said "Ya, I know you don't want to hear them tonight, but we have to play them (then laughed)." Then he proceeded to play all 5 of them back to back.

I don't think it is that people (speaking for myself anyways) don't want to hear the new stuff. I like hearing the new stuff......but in a concert setting would rather hear something I know and love. More exciting hearing the first chords to one of your favs LIVE! LOL, besides ya can't sing along and get your groove on to something you don't know yet.

[Matthew]

I disagree with him, and hate how Kiss is only nostalgia right now. However, his comments were pretty insightful IMO and show what Journey or any other veteran band face when recording new music.

I guess the problem is made worse when the veteran band becomes overly preoccupied by appealing to casual fans. Bands like Rush - who most people either love or hate - have a huge die-hard following who will accept new material much more readily than the fans Journey have been targeting....the kind of fans who fondly remember a handful of songs played on the chart shows in the early '80s.

[AR]

I don't think it is that people (speaking for myself anyways) don't want to hear the new stuff. I like hearing the new stuff......but in a concert setting would rather hear something I know and love. More exciting hearing the first chords to one of your favs LIVE! LOL....can't sing along and get your groove on to something you don't know yet.

That makes perfect sense, and it's what most bands try to do for the majority of the fans. 90% of the audience only want the hits, 10% want new material or deep cuts. Now if a veteran band happens to score a hit, then it makes things much easier of course.

IMO, a band like Journey can get away with 3 new or rare tunes in a show without losing a crowd. The best thing to do is open with a brand new song because you already have the crowd's attention and no one will do the beer break thing then.

Now if it's a show like "An evening with Journey" where they're going almost 3 hours anyway, the setlist can be a bit more varied. But on a tour like the one they are on currently, maybe 1 new song is ok in a short timeframe. Actually I think the current song selection is pretty close to perfect for this kind of tour.

Bands like Rush - who most people either love or hate - have a huge die-hard following who will accept new material much more readily than the fans Journey have been targeting...

Rush do have that latitude. I think they play whatever they feel like playing since they aren't really a singles oriented band. Put me in the "love them" catergory by the way. Awesome band, great shows.

[Red13JoePa]

Yep, nowadays the artist practically has to give a sheepish, apologetic disclaimer before they dare roll a new tune out.
A lot of it has to do w/ radio refusing to play new songs by established bands/artists, so the familiarity is greatly reduced.

Speaking of Elton John listen to Here And There, the old live record where he played tons of songs that were new then on Thanksgiving in Madison Square Garden and the crowd ate it the hell b/c they heard them on the radio and bought the new albums. Opening w/ Funeral For A Friend/Love Lies Bleeding, brand new at the time.
Flash ahead to a 2003 Main Event show when Augeri was telling crowds after playing State Of Grace, 1 new song, "Thanks for letting us play something new."

[Deb]

IMO, a band like Journey can get away with 3 new or rare tunes in a show without losing a crowd. The best thing to do is open with a brand new song because you already have the crowd's attention and no one will do the beer break thing then.

I agree.

[larryfromnextdoor]

AR , you heard of this?

http://www.bigscreenconcerts.com/index.asp


http://www.bigscreenconcerts.com/subpag ... ventID=607

[JrnyScarab]

I think people would rather miss a new song than an old classic hit song. That is part of the reason they run for the beer tent during a new song?

[Angiekay]

Yeah, Rush can do that because they never had big hit singles, their whole library is killer. They could play anything and the crowd would eat it up. This subject always fascinates me because HELLO! ALL songs are "new" at one time. If you just blow them off and don't listen to them, or they don't play them, of course they are going to get lost in the shuffle. I think some classic rock artists have some really great new music. It reminds me of the story I read once about how when Led Zeppelin used to play Stairway in concert as a "new" song, people just stood there bored or went to the bathroom. ha.

[AR]

AR , you heard of this?

http://www.bigscreenconcerts.com/index.asp


http://www.bigscreenconcerts.com/subpag ... ventID=607

I have. Coincidentally the night it's in theaters, I'll be at a Paul Stanley solo show in Baltimore.

[conversationpc]

Rush do have that latitude. I think they play whatever they feel like playing since they aren't really a singles oriented band. Put me in the "love them" catergory by the way. Awesome band, great shows.

You rock! I've only seen Rush twice and they were both awesome shows. Unlike my other favorite bands, though, I wish they would play MORE older material. I like most of their stuff but I like to hear more classic material.

[sadie65]

This isn't exactly a new occurance. Heck even Rick Nelson lamented it back in the 70's....hence Garden Party.

Whether the die hard fans like it or not, most classic rock acts are going to do that which made them famous. It is a crying shame, but it's reality.

When most of these acts play their new material....those beer/bathroom lines get pretty long...simply because the majority of people going to their concerts are there for a sense of nostalgia.

So sadly, you're going to wind up with the hits...maybe one deep cut/new release...and a band that can continue to play the circuit.

Peace

[whocares]

I go to a concert hoping to hear SOME new material.

Last year, with the fiasco that was, I don't remember if we heard one or two new songs in the setlist. I was pissed, then again, I had no idea at the time, what was going on then with vocals.

I'm not a happy concert goer if all I hear is the old hits and nothing else worth hearing.

[The Ghost Rider]

I go to a concert hoping to hear SOME new material.

Last year, with the fiasco that was, I don't remember if we heard one or two new songs in the setlist. I was pissed, then again, I had no idea at the time, what was going on then with vocals.

I'm not a happy concert goer if all I hear is the old hits and nothing else worth hearing.

And this is why I don't go to nearly as many shows as I used to. Once you see a band a couple of times, chances are you'll hear pretty much the same songs the next time. And the next...and the next.

Saves me money, I guess.

[AR]

I go to a concert hoping to hear SOME new material.

Last year, with the fiasco that was, I don't remember if we heard one or two new songs in the setlist. I was pissed, then again, I had no idea at the time, what was going on then with vocals.

I'm not a happy concert goer if all I hear is the old hits and nothing else worth hearing.


And this is why I don't go to nearly as many shows as I used to. Once you see a band a couple of times, chances are you'll hear pretty much the same songs the next time. And the next...and the next.

I go hoping to hear new material as well, but we are all in the minority. Some people go to 1 show a year. I probably go to 30 or 40 concerts a year and see certain bands multiple times each tour. However, that isn't what your average concert goer does.

[Carlitto H@kk]

Put it this way...

20 years ago we were all (most of us) in High School/Junior High and Journey was at the peak of their popularity. They were the kings of radio and Mtv. As soon as a new Journey album came out, we all ran to the local record shop, bought it, burned EVERY FREAKING NOTE to our brains and went to the concert ANXIOUS to hear these new favorite songs LIVE.

Now come back to the present. Arrival, Red13 and Generations were all released with very little fan-fair. They essentially got no airplay and only the die-hards really cared to run out and buy them the day they hit the streets. Basically, 80% (just guessing) of most folks going to see Journey this year have no idea that Journey has put out some or all of the past 3 albums. They've never heard such gems as Higher Place, We Will Meet Again, Faith in the Heartland, Out Of Harms Way...

It's just a fact of life; we've all grown up.

Look at the newer, 'hip' bands touring: My Chemical Romance, Avenged Sevenfold, Nickelback, Green Day, The Killers...
All these bands are getting massive airplay. Their 'young' fans are running out in hordes to buy their new albums and going to these shows ANXIOUS to hear these new fave songs LIVE...

The only way Journey gets to showcase tons of new material on tour is if they:
1. Get the media attention on TV and Radio they deserve.
2. Somehow connect with and gain a ton of 'younger' fans. These are the ones that, along with us die-hards, are gonna run out and buy a new album on release day with their hard-earned lunch money. The Younger generation of fans are the ones that will be able to put Journey back on the map again. If THEY make Journey relevant again then asses like Clear Channel, Mtv, Rolling Stone and the like will follow suit... It's the way of the world.

With Jeff, Journey has the opportunity to do this because, like I've said before, at 41 Jeff has the look, attitude and voice to connect with ALL generations of fans, young/old, short/tall, skinny/fat, pretty/ugly...
The way he is put out there to the masses is gonna be paramount to Journey's future success.

Whoooo... Sorry for the long rant

[Matthew]

Yeah, Rush can do that because they never had big hit singles, their whole library is killer. They could play anything and the crowd would eat it up. This subject always fascinates me because HELLO! ALL songs are "new" at one time. If you just blow them off and don't listen to them, or they don't play them, of course they are going to get lost in the shuffle. I think some classic rock artists have some really great new music. It reminds me of the story I read once about how when Led Zeppelin used to play Stairway in concert as a "new" song, people just stood there bored or went to the bathroom. ha.

Yes - it's true that Rush are known more as an 'albums band' - but even so - it is precisely their ability to keep challenging their fans which has made the fans so devoted. Rush have never pandered to their audience...or taken the easy option...or stuck to a successful or 'proven' formula.

I'd say there are a number of similarities between Rush and Journey. Both bands started out playing progressive rock...both bands made a conscious effort to record shorter songs which might have chart success in the very late 70s...and both groups embraced the new technology re: keyboards and drum machines in the 1980s - despite the protests of their 'traditional' fan base. And both bands are now - post-30th Anniversaries - heavier than they ever have been.

There are obviously a number of differences too (Rush never recorded a ballad, etc) - but nonetheless my point is that Journey used to challenge their fan base too. They used to take the lead and say...this is the new direction...like it or lump it.

But maybe after the ten year break....the fall-out of the comeback in '96...and the failure of "Arrival"...Journey have totally lost confidence in their ability to take the lead....to take risks...to play on now matter how many boneheads leave for the bar.

It's a shame because they're probably rich enough to take a few risks. Like Robert Plant. He played only a handful of Led Zep classics on his tour this year....and most of the concert was devoted to new or recent material...and when he did do the Led Zep songs he totally reinvented the arrangements.

Did this appeal to the lowest common denominator? The casual fan? No - not one bit. But did Plant himself have a more fulfilling and creative time? Did he feel he was moving forward and not just going through the motions? Well, it certainly looked like it.

For Journey to say...oh, that's just the way it is...we have to stick to our Greatest Hits...well, I reckon that's lazy and greedy...and a sign that they have run out of confidence and ideas.

What we're all picking up on though - I guess - is that JSS does have confidence and ideas and that he is about to shake this tired old band up and start challenging the fan base...even if it means alientating some of them...and bringing new, younger fans in. Let's hope so, anyway.

For me I'd ideally like to hear at least 30% new material when I see them next year....and of the 70% of old stuff...at least half of that devoted to songs I didn't expect to hear. And in the UK at least they could definitely get away with it.

[Big J]

Just to touch on your last statement there, no they don't have that chance with Jeff, because even Jeff is 10 years too old. And the band's rep is etched in stone...they're not all of a sudden going to get airplay on top 40 radio, A. Because they're not an R&B group, which basically IS Top 40 now, and B. Because they're Journey and their mom listened to Journey and thus Journey isn't cool, regardless of whether it's JSS, Augeri, Perry or friggin' Usher singing for them.

The Temptations will have a top 40 hit sooner than Journey with JSS, and that's because of 'A.'

[frfksakes]

Amazing how much of Escape was played on the Escape Tour. I think every song on that album was done live at some point on that tour.

[Matthew]

Just to touch on your last statement there, no they don't have that chance with Jeff, because even Jeff is 10 years too old. And the band's rep is etched in stone...they're not all of a sudden going to get airplay on top 40 radio, A. Because they're not an R&B group, which basically IS Top 40 now, and B. Because they're Journey and their mom listened to Journey and thus Journey isn't cool, regardless of whether it's JSS, Augeri, Perry or friggin' Usher singing for them.

The Temptations will have a top 40 hit sooner than Journey with JSS, and that's because of 'A.'

No - but Journey can still have a Top Ten album hit. Look at Bob Segar....

[brywool]

I crave it...

[whocares]

Carlitto, do you think that Journey could have come out the Nickleback's "Photograph" and had a hit with it? (serious type of question)

You mentioned Rolling stone coming on board, but even you have to know that's not totally true. Rolling Stone has never(?) been friendly to Journey, even if it was mostly because of Perry's voice. (not trying to bust you chops specifically, C)

What's it gonna take to get a hit song? No one here knows for sure, MAYBE with the exception of JSS. Maybe they've started writing some stuff at least to see if they are compatible to each other's style of writing (JSS/Cain). That kind of info would be nice to know from JSS himself.

I'll take some of the hits they still play, IF they'd just change them up a bit. Make it interesting to hear about, otherwise, those way over priced beers are going to be what I prefer, to hearing the same song as on the Record, over and over and over and... Hell, even Perry had the sense to change things up, whether it was because he wanted to, or needed to, on his solo tour.

[Angiekay]

It's a shame because they're probably rich enough to take a few risks. Like Robert Plant. He played only a handful of Led Zep classics on his tour this year....and most of the concert was devoted to new or recent material...and when he did do the Led Zep songs he totally reinvented the arrangements.

Did this appeal to the lowest common denominator? The casual fan? No - not one bit. But did Plant himself have a more fulfilling and creative time? Did he feel he was moving forward and not just going through the motions? Well, it certainly looked like it.

For someone who FOREVER in the 80's wouldn't touch a Zeppelin song in concert, now he won't play any of his 80's solo stuff. I was really disappointed when I saw him last summer. To hear the Zep songs was cool, and the new stuff isn't bad, but what I would have given to hear, "Heaven Knows" "Ship of Fools", "In The Mood", "Big Log" etc. That was a bummer.

[Red13JoePa]

Yep, Kay....Plant should do the Now And Zen and Fate Of Nations material.

[Angiekay]

Yep, Kay....Plant should do the Now And Zen and Fate Of Nations material.

OMG..."29 Palms", "Your Ma Said You Cried In Your Sleep Last Night", "Little By Little"....ANYTHING! I would have even endured "Tall Cool One" Throw me a bone, here, Bob!

[Carlitto H@kk]

Carlitto, do you think that Journey could have come out the Nickleback's "Photograph" and had a hit with it? (serious type of question)

You mentioned Rolling stone coming on board, but even you have to know that's not totally true. Rolling Stone has never(?) been friendly to Journey, even if it was mostly because of Perry's voice. (not trying to bust you chops specifically, C)

What's it gonna take to get a hit song? No one here knows for sure, MAYBE with the exception of JSS. Maybe they've started writing some stuff at least to see if they are compatible to each other's style of writing (JSS/Cain). That kind of info would be nice to know from JSS himself.

I'll take some of the hits they still play, IF they'd just change them up a bit. Make it interesting to hear about, otherwise, those way over priced beers are going to be what I prefer, to hearing the same song as on the Record, over and over and over and... Hell, even Perry had the sense to change things up, whether it was because he wanted to, or needed to, on his solo tour.

I will repeat for you:

The only way Journey gets to showcase tons of new material on tour AND possibly have a top 40 hit is if they:

1. Get the media attention on TV and Radio they deserve. (this falls on the shoulders of an agressive management/promotion team)

2. Somehow connect with and gain a ton of 'younger' fans. These are the fans that, along with us die-hards, are gonna run out and buy a new album on release day with their hard-earned lunch money. The Younger generation of fans are the ones that will be able to put Journey back on the map again. If THEY, the younger generation of fans, make Journey relevant again then asses like Clear Channel, Mtv, Rolling Stone and the like will follow suit... It's the way of the world.

With Jeff, Journey has the opportunity to do this because, like I've said before, at 41 Jeff has the look, attitude and voice to connect with ALL generations of fans, young/old, short/tall, skinny/fat, pretty/ugly...

The way he is put out there to the masses is gonna be paramount to Journey's future success.