MR

Read about the fakery done on the Led Zeppelin "How the West Was Won" DVD and many other Zep live releases

http://www.simplyled.net/thegardentapes.html

Interesting reading. Thanks AR.

Robert Plants ass is mine. Give me time to start up the blog,

Lip Zeppelin: The Song Remains the Same, literally.

I can understand that some live recordings need to be remixed to bring certain instruments or vocals up or down in the mix but it really drives me nuts when bad notes or timing is fixed in the studio or even re-recorded in the studio, for that matter. If it's supposed to be a live album, then it should really be live.

Rockin'Deano wrote:Robert Plants ass is mine. Give me time to start up the blog,

Lip Zeppelin: The Song Remains the Same, literally.

How about...

Whole Lotta Lip

Here we go......

conversationpc wrote:I can understand that some live recordings need to be remixed to bring certain instruments or vocals up or down in the mix but it really drives me nuts when bad notes or timing is fixed in the studio or even re-recorded in the studio, for that matter. If it's supposed to be a live album, then it should really be live.

Agree.

On this performance of "Africa" by Toto, you can clearly hear that they used the original vocals from the album on the chorus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-W3hVbH_Rg

I don't get why they'd do that on a dvd where it's so easy to spot.

JeremyP wrote:

conversationpc wrote:I can understand that some live recordings need to be remixed to bring certain instruments or vocals up or down in the mix but it really drives me nuts when bad notes or timing is fixed in the studio or even re-recorded in the studio, for that matter. If it's supposed to be a live album, then it should really be live.

Agree.

On this performance of "Africa" by Toto, you can clearly hear that they used the original vocals from the album on the chorus. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-W3hVbH_Rg

I don't get why they'd do that on a dvd where it's so easy to spot.

Hahaha. I TOLD you, Andrew. Those flaming dicklickers DO lip!

TNC told me, and TNC is always right.

Suck on this one! TOTO should be banished to MR Hell!

Rockin'Deano wrote:

Hahaha. I TOLD you, Andrew. Those flaming dicklickers DO lip!

TNC told me, and TNC is always right.

Suck on this one! TOTO should be banished to MR Hell!

They've done that on every live performance of "Africa" from recent years that I've seen on youtube. I wonder why there's no mention of it on the Toto board, it's really obvious.

Anyway, no disrespect intended to Toto, their songs are great and I really enjoy them. Especially the way they add instrumental jam sections to their well known songs, that's really cool.

As I have said in the past, nearly all bands, performers use some extend to vocal or tape help. Some more than others, some are used as background. This is nothing new-ERIC

Abitaman wrote:As I have said in the past, nearly all bands, performers use some extend to vocal or tape help. Some more than others, some are used as background. This is nothing new-ERIC

Yeah, I know. It just feels anti rock band.

AR wrote:Read about the fakery done on the Led Zeppelin "How the West Was Won" DVD and many other Zep live releases

http://www.simplyled.net/thegardentapes.html

Edits to a dvd or cd are common,they always played live unlike Augeri!

Abitaman wrote:As I have said in the past, nearly all bands, performers use some extend to vocal or tape help. Some more than others, some are used as background. This is nothing new-ERIC

It may be nothing new but if they're not telling the audience about it, then they're not being honest. They're pretending to sing the chorus when they're really not. If it's not such a big deal, then why don't they just close their mouths during the chorus and let the music play by itself?

conversationpc wrote:

Abitaman wrote:As I have said in the past, nearly all bands, performers use some extend to vocal or tape help. Some more than others, some are used as background. This is nothing new-ERIC

It may be nothing new but if they're not telling the audience about it, then they're not being honest. They're pretending to sing the chorus when they're really not. If it's not such a big deal, then why don't they just close their mouths during the chorus and let the music play by itself?

It is an illusion, ever one wants to be better than the next. it really comes down to what is to much, or what want thinks is to much-ERIC

Abitaman wrote:It is an illusion...

Exactly. Thanks for proving my point.

It is a point I have know about for years. Rock nowadays, it more about more bang for the buck, big entertainment, and less about playing rock and roll. The illusion does not bother me so much, I have a good time at the shows. But, tape gate was pushing it, I could see Spears doing that more than Journey.-ERIC

Yeah, "Africa" is pretty obvious, but in the rest of their set, their use of taped BG vox is no different than what Journey still does.

Back in the 80's they used to have a couple of extra people touring with them to sing backups, but these days it's a lot cheaper to just have 6 guys and a tape machine. Having seen Toto 3 times this year, I can tell you Bobby is very much live in his lead vocals, but the choruses are another matter. It's annoying, but the rest of the band is so good I can let it slide. (besides, in the States, how many opportunities does one have to see Lukather shred before your very eyes?)

The Zep thing is a fascinating research piece....

There's similar evidence that the Stones' Get Yer Ya Yas Out is also like this, purporting to having be taped over 2 shows @ MSG, but really likely being a hodgepodge of MSG, Baltimore, and Oakland from the Let It Bleed tour as well as studio overdubs.


Still one of my favortie live or "live" records.


Captured sparked some debate a while back, I think when Shirley levied the accusation that it was loaded w/ overdubs and Neal dissmissed it.

Myself I always factor in some overdubs to any live release.

Red13JoePa wrote:The Zep thing is a fascinating research piece....

There's similar evidence that the Stones' Get Yer Ya Yas Out is also like this, purporting to having be taped over 2 shows @ MSG, but really likely being a hodgepodge of MSG, Baltimore, and Oakland from the Let It Bleed tour as well as studio overdubs.


Still one of my favortie live or "live" records.


Captured sparked some debate a while back, I think when Shirley levied the accusation that it was loaded w/ overdubs and Neal dissmissed it.

Myself I always factor in some overdubs to any live release.

Captured is full of vocal overdubs. Listen to "Lights" and "Stay Awhile" from the soundboard Japan 1980 show, and then listen to the same songs on Captured.

In my opinion, when you do things like that, it makes the record sound overly slick. It's not supposed to be slick and polished, it's supposed to be raw and energetic and LIVE. (In the case of live albums that is. On studio albums I prefer the slick, polished, and worked-very-hard-on feel in most cases.)

JeremyP wrote:

Red13JoePa wrote:The Zep thing is a fascinating research piece....

There's similar evidence that the Stones' Get Yer Ya Yas Out is also like this, purporting to having be taped over 2 shows @ MSG, but really likely being a hodgepodge of MSG, Baltimore, and Oakland from the Let It Bleed tour as well as studio overdubs.


Still one of my favortie live or "live" records.


Captured sparked some debate a while back, I think when Shirley levied the accusation that it was loaded w/ overdubs and Neal dissmissed it.

Myself I always factor in some overdubs to any live release.

Captured is full of vocal overdubs. Listen to "Lights" and "Stay Awhile" from the soundboard Japan 1980 show, and then listen to the same songs on Captured.

In my opinion, when you do things like that, it makes the record sound overly slick. It's not supposed to be slick and polished, it's supposed to be raw and energetic and LIVE. (In the case of live albums that is. On studio albums I prefer the slick, polished, and worked-very-hard-on feel in most cases.)

I agree about wanting live albums to sound raw and exciting but I would be disappointed if all the playing was wonderful and the vocals were out of tune. Especially a great vocal band like Journey. Other bands that don't emphasize the vocals can get away with being a little out of tune. Like AC/DC or something for example.

I thought I saw Neal swore every note of Captured and GHL both are all live. He even pointed to parts where the guitars and keys were out of tune on GHL saying why wouldn't we have fixed that?

JrnyScarab wrote:I agree about wanting live albums to sound raw and exciting but I would be disappointed if all the playing was wonderful and the vocals were out of tune. Especially a great vocal band like Journey. Other bands that don't emphasize the vocals can get away with being a little out of tune. Like AC/DC or something for example.

I don't see why they would think they had to do any overdubs for "Captured". I've heard enough boots from that era to know they would've had plenty of material to choose from that didn't have any major flubs or out-of-tune vocals.

Red13JoePa wrote:I thought I saw Neal swore every note of Captured and GHL both are all live. He even pointed to parts where the guitars and keys were out of tune on GHL saying why wouldn't we have fixed that?

I think that every note of GHL is live, but of course crowd noise levels were played with, and vocals weren't added, but were moved around to replace slightly missed notes.

For instance, "Seperate Ways" on GHL is from the Budokan '83 show, and the last "Ohhhhhhh" right after he says that phrase in Japanese is a little bit flubbed. Kevin Shirley copied the "Ohhhhhhh" from immediately before the Japanese phrase (which is perfectly sung) and replaced the one that was a little bit iffy.

Captured is entirely another story. I think Neal probably doesn't watch and/or listen to boots the way we do so he doesn't go "Hey, that's the same song that's on Captured! Hey, it sounds different!!"

I found the Budokan show and I'm downloading it now. So I"ll post a clip probably tomorrow or later tonight.

I'm still waiting on my camcorder to be returned to me from California where I hope they've finished repairing it by now!! (It fell off my tv and then wouldn't turn on) And then I'll transfer it from my vcr to my computer and show you what I'm talking about.

conversationpc wrote:I don't see why they would think they had to do any overdubs for "Captured". I've heard enough boots from that era to know they would've had plenty of material to choose from that didn't have any major flubs or out-of-tune vocals.

My thoughts exactly. I haven't heard many other boots from that era, but "Lights" and "Stay Awhile" sure didn't need any additional help. They sounded great exactly as they were performed.

conversationpc wrote:

JrnyScarab wrote:I agree about wanting live albums to sound raw and exciting but I would be disappointed if all the playing was wonderful and the vocals were out of tune. Especially a great vocal band like Journey. Other bands that don't emphasize the vocals can get away with being a little out of tune. Like AC/DC or something for example.

I don't see why they would think they had to do any overdubs for "Captured". I've heard enough boots from that era to know they would've had plenty of material to choose from that didn't have any major flubs or out-of-tune vocals.

Exactly.

They were that good then. Perry never had off nights, and Neal and Greg wereoutstanding as well.

Here is the sample of "Seperate Ways" from GH live and then the unedited soundboard audio from Budokan '83

The GH Live sample will play first.

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7I97YWXX

Also, earlier I said that the note was slightly flubbed. It's actually not, it's just delivered a bit differently. More abruptly.

That's what comes from not having heard the Budokan boot in months. lol I just listened to it for the first time last night since March.

Oh yeah, and on GH Live and the GH dvd, they substitute "born and raised in south Detroit" for "born and raised right here in Houston".

You can compare it on the GH live dvd and the Houston dvd. Same performance except for the words "south Detroit" which is, I think, from the Budokan show. So it's "Steve Perry live from Houston", and then switches to "Steve Perry live from Tokyo" for a sec and back to "Steve Perry live from Houston".

And here is my favorite live version of "Anyway You Want It" from the Perry lineup EVER! It's also from the Budokan show and it's amazing. (I just wish they had mixed Neal a bit louder and also some of Steve's vocals)

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=7ZXIQLBN