MR

ForceInfinity wrote:The shit-kicker is if Soto wasn't going to be a good fit, surely Journey in general and Neal in particular should've known this when they picked up the phone and brought him in or at the latest when the 2k6 tour ended. What makes no sense to me is that they then named him their new "permanent" (and that is used loosely at this point) singer in November 2k6, and then jettison him in 7 to 8 months. Maybe I think too much like a software engineer and thus too logically but the only reason I can come up with on why this happened, was they brought the guy on board, wanted him for Europe, but to placate him or throw him a bone, they named him singer knowing that once the Euro tour is done, they would get rid of him.

What was more astonishing/upsetting about all this is that they blindsided JSS, because based on everything I've read to this point, I don't think he saw this coming. You don't just kick someone to the curb like that who saved your collective asses the previous year.

It makes no sense
SeanB

pdsidd wrote:

ForceInfinity wrote:The shit-kicker is if Soto wasn't going to be a good fit, surely Journey in general and Neal in particular should've known this when they picked up the phone and brought him in or at the latest when the 2k6 tour ended. What makes no sense to me is that they then named him their new "permanent" (and that is used loosely at this point) singer in November 2k6, and then jettison him in 7 to 8 months. Maybe I think too much like a software engineer and thus too logically but the only reason I can come up with on why this happened, was they brought the guy on board, wanted him for Europe, but to placate him or throw him a bone, they named him singer knowing that once the Euro tour is done, they would get rid of him.

What was more astonishing/upsetting about all this is that they blindsided JSS, because based on everything I've read to this point, I don't think he saw this coming. You don't just kick someone to the curb like that who saved your collective asses the previous year.

It makes no sense
SeanB

It makes business sense, I'm afraid. You might have it right on the 2007 tour maybe it was to make it look less temporary but the fact of the matter was that Soto's voice is very rock and powerful and not really the right sort of soulful for Journey. I was amazed at Soto's appointment in many ways, never felt he was right, but when it comes down to it - Schon is Journey, Schon knew Soto from previous projects, Soto got them out of a tight place but I've no doubt the Schon would have known it wasn't quite right. It was an inevitable event but as with Journey very poorly handled. A shame for Jeff but he'll bounce back. A shame for Journey as they now look like a bunch of heartless businessmen rather than a band who've made some of the finest rock music ever which is how I'd like to think of them.

pdsidd wrote:It makes business sense, I'm afraid.

Soto's voice is very rock and powerful and not really the right sort of soulful for Journey.

Schon is Journey

Schon knew Soto from previous projects, Soto got them out of a tight place but I've no doubt the Schon would have known it wasn't quite right.

JourneyFuxSingers wrote:

pdsidd wrote:It makes business sense, I'm afraid.

To dismiss a member, sure. But not the way they did it.

** The way people are speculating they did it does look poor - but do you think we'll ever know the truth of the situation? I doubt it.

Soto's voice is very rock and powerful and not really the right sort of soulful for Journey.

U really should check out some of his catalogue of music. Obviously u have no idea of his versatility. He has more soul that many singers. He can be tender, disco, rock, metal, whatever.

** I agree more than most - but somehow not enough for Journey - that's just my opinion but it seems to be reflected by Cain's comments.


While we're on the subject, what was Steve Perry's voice? He was the voice of Journey, still is, right? Was he not "rock and powerful"?

** Perry was an exceptional vocalist who combined everything - a touch of the Sam Cooke's mixed with unbelievable power and range - but he had soul big time.

Schon is Journey

Really? U know it was actually Herbie's idea to recruit both Schon & Rolie to form a band. It was formed around them both. Sure Schon is the only member who has prevailed throughout all incarnations of the band. Not sure that makes him & him alone Journey tho. Perhaps to u. If so, ur Journey will continue.

** What's Herbie's role now in context of the band though?? Not as strong as Schon's I'll wager.

Schon knew Soto from previous projects, Soto got them out of a tight place but I've no doubt the Schon would have known it wasn't quite right.

Does that make it right? How would u feel if someone did this to u? I dont know ur field of expertise. But let's say u have a skill that is rare. U work for one company honing ur skill. U also work for other companies occasionally. U work w/another guy w/a different skill along the way. He calls u up one day & says he's sunk because the guy who did what u did is sick. He will be sued for millions. U help him out. U cancel everything u have going on, quit the job u have, go work for this guy. U get rave reviews for ur work. Ur old company needs u to do one last job for them in another country. U ask ur current employer if it's ok, they say yes. While u go do this other job, u cannot reach ur current employer for a month. U hear rumors that u have been let go. U can't believe it. U don't believe it. A manager, not ur boss, calls u & says it's not true. U come back to ur country ready to work still unable to reach anyone but this manager. Finally, u get a call saying the rumors were true & ur time is up. How would u feel? Would u think it was just business? Think about it for a moment.

JDouglee wrote:None of my "business" , but I sure hope Jeff got a decent severence package for all the hard work & schedule juggling it took.

pdsidd wrote:The reality of it all is Journey is not just a band but a business. Augeri voice was shot and the band had a decision of cancel a tour and lose a lot of capital or replace and honour commitments. They honoured commitments. They completed tours with Soto who did a good job but wasn't the ideal fit and then let him go. The reality of it is and I think either JK or NS comment on this that sonically Soto isn't right for Journey and with downtime planned the band can get that right.

Journey has always had a fluid line-up, Ayneley Dunbar,Steve Smith, Larrie Londin, Deen Castronove and others have filled the drummer role, the only constant has been NS - this is just another event in the Journey history the lineup will keep changing, very few bands can maintain the same lineup over thirty odd years....

Uncle heFTy wrote:

pdsidd wrote:

ForceInfinity wrote:The shit-kicker is if Soto wasn't going to be a good fit, surely Journey in general and Neal in particular should've known this when they picked up the phone and brought him in or at the latest when the 2k6 tour ended. What makes no sense to me is that they then named him their new "permanent" (and that is used loosely at this point) singer in November 2k6, and then jettison him in 7 to 8 months. Maybe I think too much like a software engineer and thus too logically but the only reason I can come up with on why this happened, was they brought the guy on board, wanted him for Europe, but to placate him or throw him a bone, they named him singer knowing that once the Euro tour is done, they would get rid of him.

What was more astonishing/upsetting about all this is that they blindsided JSS, because based on everything I've read to this point, I don't think he saw this coming. You don't just kick someone to the curb like that who saved your collective asses the previous year.

It makes no sense
SeanB

It makes business sense, I'm afraid. You might have it right on the 2007 tour maybe it was to make it look less temporary but the fact of the matter was that Soto's voice is very rock and powerful and not really the right sort of soulful for Journey. I was amazed at Soto's appointment in many ways, never felt he was right, but when it comes down to it - Schon is Journey, Schon knew Soto from previous projects, Soto got them out of a tight place but I've no doubt the Schon would have known it wasn't quite right. It was an inevitable event but as with Journey very poorly handled. A shame for Jeff but he'll bounce back. A shame for Journey as they now look like a bunch of heartless businessmen rather than a band who've made some of the finest rock music ever which is how I'd like to think of them.

It isn't what they did, but the manner in which they did it.

1) recruit someone on short notice to cover for another with 'health' problems - normal business practice
2) appoint them permanently after a probation period and announce this to the world - normal business practice
3) employ the individual on a highly successful US & European business venture which achieved many plaudits from customers and peers alike - normal business practice
4) totally ignore the employee for a month or so, avoiding his calls and get 'management' to assure him 'nothing is happening' - abnormal business practice
5) dismiss him with no notice - totally unacceptable business practice
6) spin his dismissal to the world as a 'different sonic direction' - normal business practice

If I, as an employer were to treat any of my employees thus then (in the UK at least) I would be sued through an industrial tribunal for unfair dismissal.

If this is standard business practice...

Uncle heFTy

strangegrey wrote:

pdsidd wrote:The reality of it all is Journey is not just a band but a business. Augeri voice was shot and the band had a decision of cancel a tour and lose a lot of capital or replace and honour commitments. They honoured commitments. They completed tours with Soto who did a good job but wasn't the ideal fit and then let him go. The reality of it is and I think either JK or NS comment on this that sonically Soto isn't right for Journey and with downtime planned the band can get that right.

Journey has always had a fluid line-up, Ayneley Dunbar,Steve Smith, Larrie Londin, Deen Castronove and others have filled the drummer role, the only constant has been NS - this is just another event in the Journey history the lineup will keep changing, very few bands can maintain the same lineup over thirty odd years....

A few minor points of correction...It's JC not JK. It's Castronovo not Castronove. At's Ansley, awe fuck...I can't go on...
Also, another thing. Larry Londin fluid? He's far more *solid* than fluid...if you know what I mean.

Also, I hate to say it....but trying to make excuses for rock and roll's 2 biggest douchebags is sorta like rolling shit uphill. I'm sorry, I hate to sound confrontational, but Neal Schon and Jon Cain have really screwed the pooch here. I take personal offense at the attempt to explain off their actions....if they felt the way they did, they shouldn't have announced Soto as the new singer in december. They fucked up...and I as a fan will never forgive them. You should consider similar angst. It'll do you good!

strangegrey wrote:....if they felt the way they did, they shouldn't have announced Soto as the new singer in december.

pdsidd wrote:
Schon knew Soto from previous projects, Soto got them out of a tight place.

pdsidd wrote:It makes business sense, I'm afraid.

Escape Artist wrote:They fired Steve Augeri for "health reasons" (he is now 100% and has turned down an offer to front journey again.)

Andrew wrote:I was wrongly quoted here....PERRY folks....PERRY. The band are not returning to any old singer.

pdsidd wrote:** The way people are speculating they did it does look poor - but do you think we'll ever know the truth of the situation? I doubt it.

** I agree more than most - but somehow not enough for Journey - that's just my opinion but it seems to be reflected by Cain's comments.

** What's Herbie's role now in context of the band though?? Not as strong as Schon's I'll wager.

I never said it was right, but it happens.

ForceInfinity wrote:JSS can tailor his voice toward the ballad end rather nicely. Two shining examples of his are Sacred Eyes and I'll Still be Loving You. He also did a seamless cover of Send Her My Love which his voice seem well suited to.

Lets say for the sake of arguement that Journey felt it wasn't the right sound. My question would be why not at least give the guy the courtesy of a face to face as several other people have mentioned? Oh well, I look forward to hearing from Jeff when the time comes.

Uncle heFTy wrote:

pdsidd wrote:

ForceInfinity wrote:The shit-kicker is if Soto wasn't going to be a good fit, surely Journey in general and Neal in particular should've known this when they picked up the phone and brought him in or at the latest when the 2k6 tour ended. What makes no sense to me is that they then named him their new "permanent" (and that is used loosely at this point) singer in November 2k6, and then jettison him in 7 to 8 months. Maybe I think too much like a software engineer and thus too logically but the only reason I can come up with on why this happened, was they brought the guy on board, wanted him for Europe, but to placate him or throw him a bone, they named him singer knowing that once the Euro tour is done, they would get rid of him.

What was more astonishing/upsetting about all this is that they blindsided JSS, because based on everything I've read to this point, I don't think he saw this coming. You don't just kick someone to the curb like that who saved your collective asses the previous year.

It makes no sense
SeanB

It makes business sense, I'm afraid. You might have it right on the 2007 tour maybe it was to make it look less temporary but the fact of the matter was that Soto's voice is very rock and powerful and not really the right sort of soulful for Journey. I was amazed at Soto's appointment in many ways, never felt he was right, but when it comes down to it - Schon is Journey, Schon knew Soto from previous projects, Soto got them out of a tight place but I've no doubt the Schon would have known it wasn't quite right. It was an inevitable event but as with Journey very poorly handled. A shame for Jeff but he'll bounce back. A shame for Journey as they now look like a bunch of heartless businessmen rather than a band who've made some of the finest rock music ever which is how I'd like to think of them.

It isn't what they did, but the manner in which they did it.

1) recruit someone on short notice to cover for another with 'health' problems - normal business practice
2) appoint them permanently after a probation period and announce this to the world - normal business practice
3) employ the individual on a highly successful US & European business venture which achieved many plaudits from customers and peers alike - normal business practice
4) totally ignore the employee for a month or so, avoiding his calls and get 'management' to assure him 'nothing is happening' - abnormal business practice
5) dismiss him with no notice - totally unacceptable business practice
6) spin his dismissal to the world as a 'different sonic direction' - normal business practice

If I, as an employer were to treat any of my employees thus then (in the UK at least) I would be sued through an industrial tribunal for unfair dismissal.

If this is standard business practice...

Uncle heFTy

pdsidd wrote:The reality of it all is Journey is not just a band but a business. Augeri voice was shot and the band had a decision of cancel a tour and lose a lot of capital or replace and honour commitments. They honoured commitments. They completed tours with Soto who did a good job but wasn't the ideal fit and then let him go. The reality of it is and I think either JK or NS comment on this that sonically Soto isn't right for Journey and with downtime planned the band can get that right.

Journey has always had a fluid line-up, Ayneley Dunbar,Steve Smith, Larrie Londin, Deen Castronove and others have filled the drummer role, the only constant has been NS - this is just another event in the Journey history the lineup will keep changing, very few bands can maintain the same lineup over thirty odd years....

pdsidd wrote:The reality of it all is Journey is not just a band but a business. Augeri voice was shot and the band had a decision of cancel a tour and lose a lot of capital or replace and honour commitments. They honoured commitments. They completed tours with Soto who did a good job but wasn't the ideal fit and then let him go.

JourneyFuxSingers wrote:

pdsidd wrote:The reality of it all is Journey is not just a band but a business. Augeri voice was shot and the band had a decision of cancel a tour and lose a lot of capital or replace and honour commitments. They honoured commitments. They completed tours with Soto who did a good job but wasn't the ideal fit and then let him go.

So what ur saying is they used Jeff for one purpose: to get them thru commitments & keep their $$$ & they lied to him in order to do that. Ok I'll buy that. They did go on & book other dates tho. Um Europe for example. Remember that?

Anyway, why did they officially name Jeff lead singer then? Why give interviews on how exciting it was & the new album they planned? Why not just say he was filling in for Augeri the whole time? Or was that all part of the deception too?

Uncle heFTy wrote:

It isn't what they did, but the manner in which they did it.

brywool wrote:

pdsidd wrote:The reality of it all is Journey is not just a band but a business. Augeri voice was shot and the band had a decision of cancel a tour and lose a lot of capital or replace and honour commitments. They honoured commitments. They completed tours with Soto who did a good job but wasn't the ideal fit and then let him go. The reality of it is and I think either JK or NS comment on this that sonically Soto isn't right for Journey and with downtime planned the band can get that right.

Journey has always had a fluid line-up, Ayneley Dunbar,Steve Smith, Larrie Londin, Deen Castronove and others have filled the drummer role, the only constant has been NS - this is just another event in the Journey history the lineup will keep changing, very few bands can maintain the same lineup over thirty odd years....

I agree with this. HOWEVER- the choice Journey is making sounds like it means "no progression. no growth. We're going to just do what we've always done". With JSS, they did have a chance to reinvent themselves and instead of taking that road, they took the one that just says "Nah, we're not going to grow. We're going to run our sound into the ground and go out and play Lovin' Touchin' Squeezin' until our asses fall off". Then again, if Perry was still in the band, wouldn't it be the same thing? Hopefully, they will get to work and write an amazing album. But I doubt it.

Also, the way that it was handled with Augeri AND JSS was completely shitty and I would not give my money to such assholes if I had a choice.

Little Lenny wrote: Exactly, I think what has outraged everyone is the fact that as a business they have done this more than once. I was reading Fireworks Magazine the other day, and there was an interview with Neil Schon in it, and basically he was raving about how versatile a singer JSS is, how they would be able to move forward blah blah blah.....furthermore, in the interview there was no hint of a suggestion even that JSS was only a stand in, a temp, not confirmed as the lead singer of Journey. So not only have they pulled the wool over JSS's eyes, they have done it to their fans too, and what they have to think about now is the fact that without fans, you don't get ticket sales, without ticket sales you have less income to keep the business going, and ultimately you end up with no business... or at least if you keep it a very 'downsized' one.
It is a shame that these grown men, not just the band members, their managent, anyone who is involved in the revenue side of things don't stop to think that they are dealing with human beings in:-
1. The singers they have dropped from thier line up, but in an unfair manner
2 The fans who they have not been up front with, at all.

JourneyFuxSingers wrote:

Little Lenny wrote: Exactly, I think what has outraged everyone is the fact that as a business they have done this more than once. I was reading Fireworks Magazine the other day, and there was an interview with Neil Schon in it, and basically he was raving about how versatile a singer JSS is, how they would be able to move forward blah blah blah.....furthermore, in the interview there was no hint of a suggestion even that JSS was only a stand in, a temp, not confirmed as the lead singer of Journey. So not only have they pulled the wool over JSS's eyes, they have done it to their fans too, and what they have to think about now is the fact that without fans, you don't get ticket sales, without ticket sales you have less income to keep the business going, and ultimately you end up with no business... or at least if you keep it a very 'downsized' one.
It is a shame that these grown men, not just the band members, their managent, anyone who is involved in the revenue side of things don't stop to think that they are dealing with human beings in:-
1. The singers they have dropped from thier line up, but in an unfair manner
2 The fans who they have not been up front with, at all.

Sad interview to read that one now.

I think we all know the casual fan isnt in the loop about lead singers. Those fans fill a lot of seats at shows. Thing is, this isnt the age of luddites. More & more folks are online. Almost all radio jocks are online. This is being talked about. Online, on radio. Maybe only 20 ppl per city will be discouraged from going to see a Journey concert in 2008 (or 07 if they schedule). Unless they make one hell of an impact, that 20 will tell 10 more each. Making 200 fans per city. If each of them tells 10 more, we have a problem. This is the age of the internet. If u ain't talking, they're talking 'bout u. Jeff proved that by his interactions & won fans just b/c of it. The luddite rockstars need to learn from that, but they wont.

So they lose 200 fans per city in 2008, 2000 per city by 2009, 2000 per city by 2010. They're done at that point. Maybe that's what they want? Hope they're co-headlining or they might have trouble putting asses in seats by 2009. I could be wrong tho. Oh well.

frfksakes wrote:

pdsidd wrote:
Schon knew Soto from previous projects, Soto got them out of a tight place.

Which makes this incident even more disgusting, imo.

pdsidd wrote:It makes business sense, I'm afraid.

And you can hardly call them brilliant business people. Over the past several years, their piss poor management of just about every step of the way has driven their “business” ( along with their diehard fans) into the dirt.