it's the singer not the song - (for Matthew and others)

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Here's what Matthew said, "You say this Sherrie but Cain IS one of the most successful song-writers in the history of American rock music. This scenario where JSS blinds Cain with his song-writing brilliance seems a little far-fetched to me."

Here's what I've said, "Enter JC. With him JOURNEY lost fans but gained some, too. Considering the successes of the next 3 albums with him (E5C4P3, Frontiers, and ROR) and E5C4P3 being their first and only #1 album - you could argue that JC was THE reason for the music that's now commonly understood by fans and the music world as their "legacy sound". Success tends to change minds and history. By this time the fucking of RF, GR, and the fans was a faded memory."

What neither of us have said is:
It's the singer not the song (with apologies to Survivor).

This is SO TRUE in the case of JC. Prior to The Babies he wrote a bunch of songs that did nothing. With Jon Waite, his songs had a voice. With SP his songs had a voice. With SA and DC his songs had a voice despite the lack of any commercial success. To be honest if I had to listen to JC sing all of Arrival, Red 13, and Generations I'd be driven insane. As much as I like some of the lyrical ideas of the song Generations JC's vocals are absolute torture. Also, much like my posts the song rambles on far too long. UGH - and the "Na-na's" ...God... what was he trying to do? It just comes across as a lame LTS revisited. I didn't want to mention All That Really Matters from Time3 but what the heck. I still can't figure out why they put that stain of a song on what otherwise is a brilliant collection.

Ultimately, JC's solo stuff is marginal - HE CAN'T SING TO SAVE HIS LIFE. Please tell me what JC has done ON HIS OWN that has had ANY impact? He's no Billy Joel. He's no Elton John. Nothing that he writes/sings/produces on his own does anything because his stuff NEEDS A VOICE.

It's so very CLEAR that JC's success has ALWAYS been due to the singers singing his songs and NOT his songs alone.

[SusieP]

Here's what Matthew said, "You say this Sherrie but Cain IS one of the most successful song-writers in the history of American rock music. This scenario where JSS blinds Cain with his song-writing brilliance seems a little far-fetched to me."

Here's what I've said, "Enter JC. With him JOURNEY lost fans but gained some, too. Considering the successes of the next 3 albums with him (E5C4P3, Frontiers, and ROR) and E5C4P3 being their first and only #1 album - you could argue that JC was THE reason for the music that's now commonly understood by fans and the music world as their "legacy sound". Success tends to change minds and history. By this time the fucking of RF, GR, and the fans was a faded memory."

What neither of us have said is:
It's the singer not the song (with apologies to Survivor).

This is SO TRUE in the case of JC. Prior to The Babies he wrote a bunch of songs that did nothing. With Jon Waite, his songs had a voice. With SP his songs had a voice. With SA and DC his songs had a voice despite the lack of any commercial success. To be honest if I had to listen to JC sing all of Arrival, Red 13, and Generations I'd be driven insane. As much as I like some of the lyrical ideas of the song Generations JC's vocals are absolute torture. Also, much like my posts the song rambles on far too long. UGH - and the "Na-na's" ...God... what was he trying to do? It just comes across as a lame LTS revisited. I didn't want to mention All That Really Matters from Time3 but what the heck. I still can't figure out why they put that stain of a song on what otherwise is a brilliant collection.

Ultimately, JC's solo stuff is marginal - HE CAN'T SING TO SAVE HIS LIFE. Please tell me what JC has done ON HIS OWN that has had ANY impact? He's no Billy Joel. He's no Elton John. Nothing that he writes/sings/produces on his own does anything because his stuff NEEDS A VOICE.

It's so very CLEAR that JC's success has ALWAYS been due to the singers singing his songs and NOT his songs alone.

But his ego probably believes otherwise.

[Greg]

Here's what Matthew said, "You say this Sherrie but Cain IS one of the most successful song-writers in the history of American rock music. This scenario where JSS blinds Cain with his song-writing brilliance seems a little far-fetched to me."

Here's what I've said, "Enter JC. With him JOURNEY lost fans but gained some, too. Considering the successes of the next 3 albums with him (E5C4P3, Frontiers, and ROR) and E5C4P3 being their first and only #1 album - you could argue that JC was THE reason for the music that's now commonly understood by fans and the music world as their "legacy sound". Success tends to change minds and history. By this time the fucking of RF, GR, and the fans was a faded memory."

What neither of us have said is:
It's the singer not the song (with apologies to Survivor).

This is SO TRUE in the case of JC. Prior to The Babies he wrote a bunch of songs that did nothing. With Jon Waite, his songs had a voice. With SP his songs had a voice. With SA and DC his songs had a voice despite the lack of any commercial success. To be honest if I had to listen to JC sing all of Arrival, Red 13, and Generations I'd be driven insane. As much as I like some of the lyrical ideas of the song Generations JC's vocals are absolute torture. Also, much like my posts the song rambles on far too long. UGH - and the "Na-na's" ...God... what was he trying to do? It just comes across as a lame LTS revisited. I didn't want to mention All That Really Matters from Time3 but what the heck. I still can't figure out why they put that stain of a song on what otherwise is a brilliant collection.

Ultimately, JC's solo stuff is marginal - HE CAN'T SING TO SAVE HIS LIFE. Please tell me what JC has done ON HIS OWN that has had ANY impact? He's no Billy Joel. He's no Elton John. Nothing that he writes/sings/produces on his own does anything because his stuff NEEDS A VOICE.

It's so very CLEAR that JC's success has ALWAYS been due to the singers singing his songs and NOT his songs alone.

INDEED!!!

[separate_wayz]

I've always thought Journey's success was like a three-legged stool: Cain's songwriting and musicianship, Perry's lyricism and signature sound, and Schon's musicianship. Without any one of these legs, Journey falters. Minus any one of them, that three-legged stool starts looking like a piece of furniture propped up by a ugly cinder block.

Journey has always seemed like a bad, co-dependent relationship. Without Perry, Schon has next-to-nothing -- SoulSirkus, packing 50 people into a bar. Without Schon and Cain, Perry has no career. I think history's proved this true. They've always needed each other to hit the stratosphere, no matter what each may think.

[Scarab Pilot]

I've always thought Journey's success was like a three-legged stool: Cain's songwriting and musicianship, Perry's lyricism and signature sound, and Schon's musicianship. Without any one of these legs, Journey falters. Minus any one of them, that three-legged stool starts looking like a piece of furniture propped up by a ugly cinder block.

Journey has always seemed like a bad, co-dependent relationship. Without Perry, Schon has next-to-nothing -- SoulSirkus, packing 50 people into a bar. Without Schon and Cain, Perry has no career. I think history's proved this true. They've always needed each other to hit the stratosphere, no matter what each may think.

Good analogy.

[Matthew]

It's so very CLEAR that JC's success has ALWAYS been due to the singers singing his songs and NOT his songs alone.

I agree with you up to a point Fyre - although the opening keyboard riff of DSB is one of the all-time classic moments in rock and a big factor in the song's enduring appeal - and the singers in question - Perry and Waite - had limited success compared to the success they enjoyed with Cain.

They also had absolutely gigantic egos and Cain was not only able to handle them - he was able to get them to bring his song-writing fully to life as well. Which is why I don't quite buy this idea that Cain was "threatened" by JSS.

I guess it's true though that Cain - after turning 57 and enjoying a decade of having a drippy, easily-controlled singer in the band - might be feeling more vulnerable than he used to feel around a frontman with a bit of swagger.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I've always thought Journey's success was like a three-legged stool: Cain's songwriting and musicianship, Perry's lyricism and signature sound, and Schon's musicianship. Without any one of these legs, Journey falters. Minus any one of them, that three-legged stool starts looking like a piece of furniture propped up by a ugly cinder block.

Journey has always seemed like a bad, co-dependent relationship. Without Perry, Schon has next-to-nothing -- SoulSirkus, packing 50 people into a bar. Without Schon and Cain, Perry has no career. I think history's proved this true. They've always needed each other to hit the stratosphere, no matter what each may think.

Good analogy.

Absolutely.

Saying that it's the singer not the song by no means diminishes the value of a song nor any of the other players. It simply suggests that it's the singer - THE HUMAN FACTOR - that directly expresses the message of the song.

Would Open Arms have been as popular had JC sung it? I seriously doubt it.

It's been the JOURNEY singers that have breathed the SOUL in otherwise lifeless songs. It's the singers that have touched the fans and moved them through their interpretations of the songs - not the songs alone.

[OneJourney]

In my opinion, it is the happy marriage of both. Add to that the timing of the release of the song and I think that is the full picture. Take "I Will Always Love You", a huge Whitney Houston hit. It was written and recorded by another great singer, Dolly Parton with little success. I don't think a general rule can be applied to all cases of song vs. singer...I think each case is different and the marriage of song to singer helps greatly.

Again, just my thoughts. Very thought provoking thread though, thanks!!

[Greg]

JC's vocals are so uninspiring to me that it really puts into perspective how much he needed someone like Steve Perry to sing the songs.

[Matthew]

JC's vocals are so uninspiring to me that it really puts into perspective how much he needed someone like Steve Perry to sing the songs.

But Cain never had any pretensions to be a rock frontman or a legendary vocalist himself. He was a keyboard player in massively successful rock acts - who released the occassional low-key side-project. Well, they're not that low-key anymore - given his recent success as a solo artist - but you know what I mean.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

In my opinion, it is the happy marriage of both. Add to that the timing of the release of the song and I think that is the full picture. Take "I Will Always Love You", a huge Whitney Houston hit. It was written and recorded by another great singer, Dolly Parton with little success. I don't think a general rule can be applied to all cases of song vs. singer...I think each case is different and the marriage of song to singer helps greatly.

Again, just my thoughts. Very thought provoking thread though, thanks!!

For commercial success there is most definitely a need for a "happy marriage" and timing. I guess the point I'm trying to echo (from Survivor's song) is that a song is lifeless without the humanity of a singer.

Your Whitney/Dolly comparison is a good example of this. When Whitney released her version her star was much higher on the rise and her audience far more expansive than Dolly's was. Couple that with Whitney's version being part of a major movie soundtrack - well, it was bound to become more recognized with Whitney than Dolly.

BTW I prefer Dolly's version for the simple fact that to me it's more of a delicate song which she sings accordingly in contrast to Whitney's over-the-top blasting treatment.

Again, would you want to hear JC sing ANY of JOURNEY's songs? Not me. He's not a singer. His version of Faithfully on his Back To The Innocence album is painful.

Anyway, when is LIGHTS going to do a Latin rhythm album - you know - show JOURNEY how it oughta be...?

[Matthew]

Again, would you want to hear JC sing ANY of JOURNEY's songs? Not me. He's not a singer. His version of Faithfully on his Back To The Innocence album is painful.

But it's been a bigger hit than anything recorded by Journey or JSS in recent memory....

Come on Fyre...I know why the mob wants to lynch Amadeus at the moment...but you're really scraping the barrel with this thread.

OF COURSE a great song-writer needs a great singer if the great song-writer isn't a great singer himself. Fyre - for a man of the metaphysical world your point is surprisingly banal.

[bluejeangirl76]

It's so very CLEAR that JC's success has ALWAYS been due to the singers singing his songs and NOT his songs alone.

But his ego probably believes otherwise.

Yes, it does. That's why he won't get off the "Faithfully" train.
Give it up man. It sucked when you sang it and it did nothing for me when you turned it into a duet.
Know why?

It's the singer not the song, that makes the music move along..." <--- there's a reason why Pete Townshend WROTE that but had Roger Daltrey SING it. That I'm even bringing up such a brilliant writing/singing team in a frig thread saddens me. Faithfully is great song not only because of the words, but because of the powerful and emotional vocals that are delivering those words. I don't mean to go all loony-sounding here but, he isn't going to duplicate the success of that song no matter how many times he records it. Sheesh, write something else, man.

[SusieP]

I've always thought Journey's success was like a three-legged stool: Cain's songwriting and musicianship, Perry's lyricism and signature sound, and Schon's musicianship. Without any one of these legs, Journey falters. Minus any one of them, that three-legged stool starts looking like a piece of furniture propped up by a ugly cinder block.

Journey has always seemed like a bad, co-dependent relationship. Without Perry, Schon has next-to-nothing -- SoulSirkus, packing 50 people into a bar. Without Schon and Cain, Perry has no career. I think history's proved this true. They've always needed each other to hit the stratosphere, no matter what each may think.

Good analogy.

Absolutely.

Saying that it's the singer not the song by no means diminishes the value of a song nor any of the other players. It simply suggests that it's the singer - THE HUMAN FACTOR - that directly expresses the message of the song.

Would Open Arms have been as popular had JC sung it? I seriously doubt it.

It's been the JOURNEY singers that have breathed the SOUL in otherwise lifeless songs. It's the singers that have touched the fans and moved them through their interpretations of the songs - not the songs alone.

Thats the job of a singer.
To interpret the song.
To LIVE the lyrics.
To bring them to life for the composer and the audience.

And when you get a good singer breathing life into the words of a good song, thats when magic happens.

Heaven.

[conversationpc]

It's the singer AND the song.

[SusieP]

It's the singer AND the song.

......and the lead guitarist.......

....and a bit of magic......
....and the planets being in alignment........

[Wheels Of Fyre]

Again, would you want to hear JC sing ANY of JOURNEY's songs? Not me. He's not a singer. His version of Faithfully on his Back To The Innocence album is painful.

But it's been a bigger hit than anything recorded by Journey or JSS in recent memory....

Come on Fyre...I know why the mob wants to lynch Amadeus at the moment...but you're really scraping the barrel with this thread.

OF COURSE a great song-writer needs a great singer if the great song-writer isn't a great singer himself. Fyre - for a man of the metaphysical world your point is surprisingly banal.

I'm just trying to put things into perspective. People want to lynch him for good reason.

You agree with the idea here BUT what you're missing is that it seems like JC has lost complete sight of it. They had the guy who could've been special and dumped him.

[tammy]

I've always thought Journey's success was like a three-legged stool: Cain's songwriting and musicianship, Perry's lyricism and signature sound, and Schon's musicianship. Without any one of these legs, Journey falters. Minus any one of them, that three-legged stool starts looking like a piece of furniture propped up by a ugly cinder block.

Journey has always seemed like a bad, co-dependent relationship. Without Perry, Schon has next-to-nothing -- SoulSirkus, packing 50 people into a bar. Without Schon and Cain, Perry has no career. I think history's proved this true. They've always needed each other to hit the stratosphere, no matter what each may think.

And, that is what is called, "magic".

[Wheels Of Fyre]

It's the singer AND the song.

......and the lead guitarist.......

....and a bit of magic......
....and the planets being in alignment........

And the producer, and the manager, and the guitar tech, and the...

It can go on forever.

Yes. It takes a TEAM however as some here have noted - the singer is like the QB of a football team. They get all of the credit when something's good and all of the crap when something's bad.

I recently heard Barry Manilow's version of Unchained Melody. This is one of my all-time favorite songs. Great song - very well written and The Righteous Brothers just MAKE IT.

Barry on the other hand absolutely destroyed it.

Come on. You guys know what I'm talking about here. Is Hound Dog a great song or is Elvis' interpretation of it great?

[ArnelRox]

I recently heard Barry Manilow's version of Unchained Melody.

Ur a Fanilow? Now I know what the problem is.

[Wheels Of Fyre]

I recently heard Barry Manilow's version of Unchained Melody.

Ur a Fanilow? Now I know what the problem is.

You've misread! I said that Barry's version stunk.

I do like Barry, though.

[Moon Beam]

I do like Barry, though.

I do to Frye the man has some good song slays out there.
Can almost feel my backside being tanned by the Homo-Phobes now.

[X factor]

It's so very CLEAR that JC's success has ALWAYS been due to the singers singing his songs and NOT his songs alone.

I agree with you up to a point Fyre - although the opening keyboard riff of DSB is one of the all-time classic moments in rock and a big factor in the song's enduring appeal - and the singers in question - Perry and Waite - had limited success compared to the success they enjoyed with Cain.

They also had absolutely gigantic egos and Cain was not only able to handle them - he was able to get them to bring his song-writing fully to life as well. Which is why I don't quite buy this idea that Cain was "threatened" by JSS.

I guess it's true though that Cain - after turning 57 and enjoying a decade of having a drippy, easily-controlled singer in the band - might be feeling more vulnerable than he used to feel around a frontman with a bit of swagger.

[X factor]

It's so very CLEAR that JC's success has ALWAYS been due to the singers singing his songs and NOT his songs alone.

I agree with you up to a point Fyre - although the opening keyboard riff of DSB is one of the all-time classic moments in rock and a big factor in the song's enduring appeal - and the singers in question - Perry and Waite - had limited success compared to the success they enjoyed with Cain.

They also had absolutely gigantic egos and Cain was not only able to handle them - he was able to get them to bring his song-writing fully to life as well. Which is why I don't quite buy this idea that Cain was "threatened" by JSS.

I guess it's true though that Cain - after turning 57 and enjoying a decade of having a drippy, easily-controlled singer in the band - might be feeling more vulnerable than he used to feel around a frontman with a bit of swagger.

Matthew, I'm with you alot, and I agree with you on Perry (to a point- though what about all the pre Cain Journey years? Some pretty successful stuff) but I must protest the statement that most of John Waite's success came with Friga...Sorry, but I ain't buying that. The Babys had three successful albums PRE Cain loaded with hits (Head First? Isn't it Time? Everytime I think of you? Money? If you've got the time?) and Cain was not nearly the full time contributer to those Baby's albums the way he was in Journey. And let's be fair, Waite's biggest success has been his solo material (Change, Missing You, Tears, Restless Heart,How did I get by w/out you, If Anybody had a heart, Missing You again...yet ANOTHER version of MISSING YOU ...etc...) Bad English, though an awesome band, had pretty much two hits in the US...and as we all know, the US charts are all that matter baby!!!!!

[Wheels Of Fyre]

It's so very CLEAR that JC's success has ALWAYS been due to the singers singing his songs and NOT his songs alone.

I agree with you up to a point Fyre - although the opening keyboard riff of DSB is one of the all-time classic moments in rock and a big factor in the song's enduring appeal - and the singers in question - Perry and Waite - had limited success compared to the success they enjoyed with Cain.

They also had absolutely gigantic egos and Cain was not only able to handle them - he was able to get them to bring his song-writing fully to life as well. Which is why I don't quite buy this idea that Cain was "threatened" by JSS.

I guess it's true though that Cain - after turning 57 and enjoying a decade of having a drippy, easily-controlled singer in the band - might be feeling more vulnerable than he used to feel around a frontman with a bit of swagger.

Matthew, I'm with you alot, and I agree with you on Perry (to a point- though what about all the pre Cain Journey years? Some pretty successful stuff) but I must protest the statement that most of John Waite's success came with Friga...Sorry, but I ain't buying that. The Babys had three successful albums PRE Cain loaded with hits (Head First? Isn't it Time? Everytime I think of you? Money? If you've got the time?) and Cain was not nearly the full time contributer to those Baby's albums the way he was in Journey. And let's be fair, Waite's biggest success has been his solo material (Change, Missing You, Tears, Restless Heart,How did I get by w/out you, If Anybody had a heart, Missing You again...yet ANOTHER version of MISSING YOU ...etc...) Bad English, though an awesome band, had pretty much two hits in the US...and as we all know, the US charts are all that matter baby!!!!!

Actually Friga joined The Babys in 78/79 after Mike Corby left. I'm not sure of the exact writing credits but he was with the band during those hits you mentioned (except I think Money) geez - my Babys trivia is rusty!

Anyway, I agree that Waite is more identified with his solo stuff. The Bad English #1 hit When I See You Smile was written by pop song mistress Diane Warren! It was Waite's vocal that made that song.

So again. What have FrigaFro done ON THEIR OWN that's been of any value?

Their strength is in launching/supporting singers such as SP, Michael Bolton, John Waite, and to some degree SA. So WHY did they leave JSS hanging? If anyone needed a little support it was JSS - I mean especially after all he did for them.

[X factor]

It's so very CLEAR that JC's success has ALWAYS been due to the singers singing his songs and NOT his songs alone.

I agree with you up to a point Fyre - although the opening keyboard riff of DSB is one of the all-time classic moments in rock and a big factor in the song's enduring appeal - and the singers in question - Perry and Waite - had limited success compared to the success they enjoyed with Cain.

They also had absolutely gigantic egos and Cain was not only able to handle them - he was able to get them to bring his song-writing fully to life as well. Which is why I don't quite buy this idea that Cain was "threatened" by JSS.

I guess it's true though that Cain - after turning 57 and enjoying a decade of having a drippy, easily-controlled singer in the band - might be feeling more vulnerable than he used to feel around a frontman with a bit of swagger.

Matthew, I'm with you alot, and I agree with you on Perry (to a point- though what about all the pre Cain Journey years? Some pretty successful stuff) but I must protest the statement that most of John Waite's success came with Friga...Sorry, but I ain't buying that. The Babys had three successful albums PRE Cain loaded with hits (Head First? Isn't it Time? Everytime I think of you? Money? If you've got the time?) and Cain was not nearly the full time contributer to those Baby's albums the way he was in Journey. And let's be fair, Waite's biggest success has been his solo material (Change, Missing You, Tears, Restless Heart,How did I get by w/out you, If Anybody had a heart, Missing You again...yet ANOTHER version of MISSING YOU ...etc...) Bad English, though an awesome band, had pretty much two hits in the US...and as we all know, the US charts are all that matter baby!!!!!

Actually Friga joined The Babys in 78/79 after Mike Corby left. I'm not sure of the exact writing credits but he was with the band during those hits you mentioned (except I think Money) geez - my Babys trivia is rusty!

Anyway, I agree that Waite is more identified with his solo stuff. The Bad English #1 hit When I See You Smile was written by pop song mistress Diane Warren! It was Waite's vocal that made that song.

So again. What have FrigaFro done ON THEIR OWN that's been of any value?

Their strength is in launching/supporting singers such as SP, Michael Bolton, John Waite, and to some degree SA. So WHY did they leave JSS hanging? If anyone needed a little support it was JSS - I mean especially after all he did for them.

Good point (ala Dian Warren)

...but check those dates again. All those songs I mentioned were pre Cain hits. All appeared on album prior to UNION JACKS, which was the first album Cain wrote on. The only other Babys album he played on was ON THE EDGE ( their best, imho) and all those songs listed were on those albums. SO the only HITS he had with Cain were BACK ON MY FEET AGAIN, MIDNIGHT RENDEVOUS and WALK AWAY (all fine songs, mind you)

[Matthew]

Again, would you want to hear JC sing ANY of JOURNEY's songs? Not me. He's not a singer. His version of Faithfully on his Back To The Innocence album is painful.

But it's been a bigger hit than anything recorded by Journey or JSS in recent memory....

Come on Fyre...I know why the mob wants to lynch Amadeus at the moment...but you're really scraping the barrel with this thread.

OF COURSE a great song-writer needs a great singer if the great song-writer isn't a great singer himself. Fyre - for a man of the metaphysical world your point is surprisingly banal.

I'm just trying to put things into perspective. People want to lynch him for good reason.

You agree with the idea here BUT what you're missing is that it seems like JC has lost complete sight of it. They had the guy who could've been special and dumped him.

I agree that they had a guy who could've been special and dumped him. I'm not missing that point at all. But people wanted to lynch Cain and Schon in '98 and '06 too - and they not only got over it - but went on the attack when anyone showed loyalty to a singer. The message was: your mental health is in question because of these loyalties. You are a Loon. You are a Wiggler. You are stuck in the past. You are unable to move on. Fuck off to your specialist singer sites if you don't like it. And so on.

So here we are now and 90% of the posts on this site are saying that the band needs to be boycotted and that we should be loyal to the last singer. Forgive me if I'm taking the current mood of self-righteous indignation with a pinch of salt.

By all means express some anger about the manner in which JSS was let go - and also it's totally reasonable to question Journey's strategy at the moment - but I reckon that if you were able to embrace Journey after they dumped Perry then you should be able to continue to support them now.

Why is JSS's sacking more unforgivable than any other dodgy decision Journey have made?

[Matthew]

Matthew, I'm with you alot, and I agree with you on Perry (to a point- though what about all the pre Cain Journey years? Some pretty successful stuff) but I must protest the statement that most of John Waite's success came with Friga...Sorry, but I ain't buying that. The Babys had three successful albums PRE Cain loaded with hits (Head First? Isn't it Time? Everytime I think of you? Money? If you've got the time?) and Cain was not nearly the full time contributer to those Baby's albums the way he was in Journey. And let's be fair, Waite's biggest success has been his solo material (Change, Missing You, Tears, Restless Heart,How did I get by w/out you, If Anybody had a heart, Missing You again...yet ANOTHER version of MISSING YOU ...etc...) Bad English, though an awesome band, had pretty much two hits in the US...and as we all know, the US charts are all that matter baby!!!!!

X factor - in the case of Waite - yes, I got that wrong. I thought The Baby's hits came from the later albums. I stand corrected!

[conversationpc]

Why is JSS's sacking more unforgivable than any other dodgy decision Journey have made?

I think most here would agree that it's a combination of two things:

1 - A culmination of events throughout the history of the band.

2 - JSS didn't go along with a lip-synching plot so he's rightly viewed as not being involved in any "dodgy" affairs.

[Matthew]

Why is JSS's sacking more unforgivable than any other dodgy decision Journey have made?

I think most here would agree that it's a combination of two things:

1 - A culmination of events throughout the history of the band.

2 - JSS didn't go along with a lip-synching plot so he's rightly viewed as not being involved in any "dodgy" affairs.

Good points, Dave. Yes...I can see that there's a feeling of 'enough is enough;'...and JSS's character doesn't seem to be in question in any way.