MR

MATTHEW wrote:I already know what most MR members think. They've turned against the third longest serving member of this band who co-wrote the majority of our all-time favourite songs in favour of a singer who sang those songs for a mere eight months.

JC replaced Gregg Rolie who was a FOUNDING member and HH's "right arm" - the ONLY member HH has never trashed. He was the guy who guided SP and JOURNEY to and up the mountain. He then helped pick JC to replace him!

Who was JC at the time...? No more special than was JSS! They made the move anyway and what were the results? E5C4P3 and Frontiers - their 2 biggest and most beloved albums ever.

And after that they did what? They dumped RV and SS - who replaced them? RJ and MB. Who were they at the time? Still the ROR album and tour were successful.

To top things off let's go back to SP. Who was he when they brought him in? Nobody.

See any patterns here?

Now. Let's look at what JC's helped JOURNEY do since E5C4P3 which is perhaps more his album. He wrote Faithfully which SP polished into a gem much like he did Open Arms. Then there was WYLAW which got a grammy nod perhaps not for it being a great song more than it was riding the wave of a much anticipated reunion with that SP guy again. Hmmm...3 hit songs - all ballads that were polished by that guy - what was his name again - oh, yeah Steve Perry.

What's JC done since SP's departure? Oh, I know. It's not his fault. It's not his music that doesn't speak to audiences anymore - it's the record companies who don't support it - or any other number of excuses that can be conjured up.

It seems to me that JC is a talented songwriter who NEEDS someone to polish his songs and put personality into them. I don't know what the creative relationship was with SA but it seems to me that JC controlled those recordings which resulted in vanilla pudding. It makes me NUTS listening to poor SA trying to jam EVERY little word that JC has written into a song rather than permitting the guy to SING THE MELODIES. JOURNEY's supposed to be a melodic rock band aren't they?

It was/is time to bring in new blood but that blood HAS to be a talent that can bring polish and personality. JSS was that guy regardless of his short tenure. According to JOURNEY's history of bringing in "nobodies" I would say that he was probably the most qualified and capable nobody in the long line of nobodies.

Amen!!!!!!!!!! I love it when you post.... you tell it like it is.


You Rock!!

Perry86fan wrote:Amen!!!!!!!!!! I love it when you post.... you tell it like it is.


You Rock!!

It's a dirty job but somebody's got to do it. It might as well be a nobody like me!

Thanks!

To be fair to Matthew, I think he's reacting more to the over-the-top hatred against Jonathan than he is anything. While it's fair to be upset at him, because I believe he's obviously complicit in the unfair way in which JSS was sacked, I also think a lot of people jumped on the hate-JC bandwagon simply because it was fashionable to do so. I participated in it a bit myself but I got over it. Do I still think JC was an idiot? Yep but I'm not still in the place where I want to crucify the guy.

On the other hand, JSS was more than just a singer who "sang those songs for a mere eight months". He was Neal's bud for the last few years and was a huge hit, by most accounts, at the vast majority of shows he performed with the band. The music business, to some degree, was starting to take notice and it seemed like Journey might be willing to take a chance and go in a slightly different direction, something the hardcore fans of the band had wanted for awhile. Heck, even some Perryloons seemed to be okay with it, even though I'm sure they still wanted their god to front the band again.

conversationpc wrote:To be fair to Matthew, I think he's reacting more to the over-the-top hatred against Jonathan than he is anything. While it's fair to be upset at him, because I believe he's obviously complicit in the unfair way in which JSS was sacked, I also think a lot of people jumped on the hate-JC bandwagon simply because it was fashionable to do so. I participated in it a bit myself but I got over it. Do I still think JC was an idiot? Yep but I'm not still in the place where I want to crucify the guy.

On the other hand, JSS was more than just a singer who "sang those songs for a mere eight months". He was Neal's bud for the last few years and was a huge hit, by most accounts, at the vast majority of shows he performed with the band. The music business, to some degree, was starting to take notice and it seemed like Journey might be willing to take a chance and go in a slightly different direction, something the hardcore fans of the band had wanted for awhile. Heck, even some Perryloons seemed to be okay with it, even though I'm sure they still wanted their god to front the band again.

I hear that. I guess I'm just trying to give credit where it's due. I'm a fan of JC, too. I'm simply saying that Matthew hit it on the head when he said "co-wrote" in regards to JC's songs. I think JC's lost sight of that - that he needs a partnership in order to be successful.

conversationpc wrote:To be fair to Matthew, I think he's reacting more to the over-the-top hatred against Jonathan than he is anything. While it's fair to be upset at him, because I believe he's obviously complicit in the unfair way in which JSS was sacked, I also think a lot of people jumped on the hate-JC bandwagon simply because it was fashionable to do so.

Exactly....

Wheels Of Fyre wrote:

conversationpc wrote:To be fair to Matthew, I think he's reacting more to the over-the-top hatred against Jonathan than he is anything. While it's fair to be upset at him, because I believe he's obviously complicit in the unfair way in which JSS was sacked, I also think a lot of people jumped on the hate-JC bandwagon simply because it was fashionable to do so. I participated in it a bit myself but I got over it. Do I still think JC was an idiot? Yep but I'm not still in the place where I want to crucify the guy.

On the other hand, JSS was more than just a singer who "sang those songs for a mere eight months". He was Neal's bud for the last few years and was a huge hit, by most accounts, at the vast majority of shows he performed with the band. The music business, to some degree, was starting to take notice and it seemed like Journey might be willing to take a chance and go in a slightly different direction, something the hardcore fans of the band had wanted for awhile. Heck, even some Perryloons seemed to be okay with it, even though I'm sure they still wanted their god to front the band again.

I hear that. I guess I'm just trying to give credit where it's due. I'm a fan of JC, too. I'm simply saying that Matthew hit it on the head when he said "co-wrote" in regards to JC's songs. I think JC's lost sight of that - that he needs a partnership in order to be successful.

I agree he needs a partnership to make it work.

Matthew,

I may not be fully aware but are you referring to his REMAKE of Faithfully? If that's the case then I wouldn't exactly call it making it songwriting wise on his own. If it is some other song then I apologize in advance. The faithfully remake is the only recent one I was aware of.

Wheels Of Fyre wrote:. I guess I'm just trying to give credit where it's due.

I'll give JSS credit for breathing new life into Journey's nostalgia shows for eight months. Absolutely. But the other achievements - such as the New Direction, the Comeback, the Relevant In The Industry Again scenarios - didn't actually happen Fyre, did they? I guess we can credit JSS for having had potential...but the rest is just wishful thinking.

Matthew wrote:

Wheels Of Fyre wrote:. I guess I'm just trying to give credit where it's due.

I'll give JSS credit for breathing new life into Journey's nostalgia shows for eight months. Absolutely. But the other achievements - such as the New Direction, the Comeback, the Relevant In The Industry Again scenarios - didn't actually happen Fyre, did they? I guess we can credit JSS for having had potential...but the rest is just wishful thinking.

I agree with you JSS would have brought new life to them. But i guess they could not see that.

chf34jmac wrote:Matthew,

I may not be fully aware but are you referring to his REMAKE of Faithfully? If that's the case then I wouldn't exactly call it making it songwriting wise on his own. If it is some other song then I apologize in advance. The faithfully remake is the only recent one I was aware of.

Sure, Perry made that song famous - but still...JC wrote and sang the thing....and it was sold under his name.

But I'm not disputing that Cain needs a singer to bring his music alive. All I'm saying is I don't understand why there's such a hate campaign against the guy because he didn't hit it off with JSS. Chemistry either happens or it doesn't. And for all we know Cain really wanted to make it work....

And who's to say that there wasn't any chemistry? It seems to me that the most crucial factor in JSS' departure was the utter indifference of the labels to this new line-up. Something must have happened in May/June that must have convinced Journey that they had no future as a recording act. And maybe JSS was unhappy with simply singing the old songs?

Matthew wrote:All I'm saying is I don't understand why there's such a hate campaign against the guy because he didn't hit it off with JSS. Chemistry either happens or it doesn't. And for all we know Cain really wanted to make it work....

You have no problem with the way he was let go, Matt?

Matthew wrote:

Wheels Of Fyre wrote:. I guess I'm just trying to give credit where it's due.

I'll give JSS credit for breathing new life into Journey's nostalgia shows for eight months. Absolutely. But the other achievements - such as the New Direction, the Comeback, the Relevant In The Industry Again scenarios - didn't actually happen Fyre, did they? I guess we can credit JSS for having had potential...but the rest is just wishful thinking.

That was MY point.

You're overlooking the history of nobodies. Steve Perry was wishful thinking in the beginning, too!

In your efforts to valiantly defend the attack on JC I think you've lost sight of the things that gave us the beloved Dirty Dozen - and I think JOURNEY has, too.

NealIsGod wrote:

Matthew wrote:All I'm saying is I don't understand why there's such a hate campaign against the guy because he didn't hit it off with JSS. Chemistry either happens or it doesn't. And for all we know Cain really wanted to make it work....

You have no problem with the way he was let go, Matt?

Yes I do, NIG. Very much so. But I believe it was Schon's call to make this time.

Matthew wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:

Matthew wrote:All I'm saying is I don't understand why there's such a hate campaign against the guy because he didn't hit it off with JSS. Chemistry either happens or it doesn't. And for all we know Cain really wanted to make it work....

You have no problem with the way he was let go, Matt?

Yes I do, NIG. Very much so. But I believe it was Schon's call to make this time.

Why do you believe that?

That was my point Matthew, JC put out a remake of a Journey hit. Doesn't that tell you something about his recent lack of creativity? You just said it, he needs someone else to make his music come alive. The dude was afraid to have to come up something new and great that lives up to what we as fans expect. JSS abilities were in essence going to force the band to go in a new direction and put JC way out of his comfort zone. IMO

Wheels Of Fyre wrote:You're overlooking the history of nobodies. Steve Perry was wishful thinking in the beginning, too!

And you're overlooking the career of Steve Augeri, Fyre. He was a nobody before he joined Journey and after eight years in the band he remained a nobody outside of the miniscule online community at BT.

Anyway...if you want to to give JSS "credit" for his potential then I'll happily give him that.

But if we're talking about credit for actual achievements then Cain ought to be receiving much more respect than he usually does around here.

NealIsGod wrote:Why do you believe that?

Schon brought JSS to the band...Schon was a friend of JSS's...Schon had been a colleague with JSS in Soul Sirkus.....


Plus it was his turn.

Matthew wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:Why do you believe that?

Schon brought JSS to the band...Schon was a friend of JSS's...Schon had been a colleague with JSS in Soul Sirkus.....

All the more reason to wonder why Schon would want him gone. Doesn't make sense.

chf34jmac wrote:That was my point Matthew, JC put out a remake of a Journey hit. Doesn't that tell you something about his recent lack of creativity?

To be fair to Cain though...he did record an entire album. The "Faithfully" track was a cunning way to market the album.

You just said it, he needs someone else to make his music come alive. The dude was afraid to have to come up something new and great that lives up to what we as fans expect. JSS abilities were in essence going to force the band to go in a new direction and put JC way out of his comfort zone. IMO

Yes, maybe. But Cain is a 57 multi-millionaire who has nothing to prove. I'm not sure how hungry I'd be in his position and at this age.

Had the record labels shared our enthusiasm for the new line-up then maybe Cain would have risen to the challenge, though.

But this is all still pure speculation isn't it? None of us have a clue what's been going on inside Cain's head....

JR (Susie) wrote:

Matthew wrote:It seems to me that the most crucial factor in JSS' departure was the utter indifference of the labels to this new line-up.

But they had a record deal w/JSS as the frontman ....

With who?

That was the reason for the IMO at the end.

JR (Susie) wrote:

Matthew wrote:

JR (Susie) wrote:

Matthew wrote:It seems to me that the most crucial factor in JSS' departure was the utter indifference of the labels to this new line-up.

But they had a record deal w/JSS as the frontman ....

With who?

A major label.

Which one? Come on Susie...spare us the "i'm an insider but my lips are sealed' bullshit and get to the point.

I remember deano saying they were being looked at by some big labels and Andrew backing that up, but I don't remember hearing any ink was put to paper.

Red13JoePa wrote:I remember deano saying they were being looked at by some big labels and Andrew backing that up, but I don't remember hearing any ink was put to paper.

Red - I don't doubt for a minute that Azoff shopped the new line-up around and that the majors 'took a look'.

The key question is what happened then? Did they make offers? Or did they pass?

conversationpc wrote:To be fair to Matthew, I think he's reacting more to the over-the-top hatred against Jonathan than he is anything. While it's fair to be upset at him, because I believe he's obviously complicit in the unfair way in which JSS was sacked, I also think a lot of people jumped on the hate-JC bandwagon simply because it was fashionable to do so. I participated in it a bit myself but I got over it. Do I still think JC was an idiot? Yep but I'm not still in the place where I want to crucify the guy.

On the other hand, JSS was more than just a singer who "sang those songs for a mere eight months". He was Neal's bud for the last few years and was a huge hit, by most accounts, at the vast majority of shows he performed with the band. The music business, to some degree, was starting to take notice and it seemed like Journey might be willing to take a chance and go in a slightly different direction, something the hardcore fans of the band had wanted for awhile. Heck, even some Perryloons seemed to be okay with it, even though I'm sure they still wanted their god to front the band again.

Great post Dave! I was mad as hell at first too, but now am indifferent to it. It's their loss. I truly don't give a shit what Journey does anymore. They've made one too many BIG mistakes for me. Besides, I am a glass half-full kind of person. Have to give them credit, Journey's provided me with 2 great singer's careers to follow.

Matthew wrote:

Red13JoePa wrote:I remember deano saying they were being looked at by some big labels and Andrew backing that up, but I don't remember hearing any ink was put to paper.

Red - I don't doubt for a minute that Azoff shopped the new line-up around and that the majors 'took a look'.

The key question is what happened then? Did they make offers? Or did they pass?

The local conjecture seems to lean in the direction that he got shitcanned with at least 1 big offer on the table.
Then of course, said offer was summarily ripped up by record company "X."

What constitutes big has not been disclosed.