MR

Which of these is a better album, ROR or TBF. I think both are a long way off musically from where the band was with Escape and Frontiers. Granted, TBF was 15 years later. Even so, I think that much time could have produced some better songs.

In either case, how much influence did CBS/Columbia (whoever owned the record company at the time) have over the final products? It seems like if they were enamored with SP style from his solo albums, they may have encouraged more of that style rather that what had worked well on the previous 2 albums.

tj wrote:they may have encouraged more of that style rather that what had worked well on the previous 2 albums.

Or maybe - shock horror - Journey themselves decided to experiment a bit and develop their sound - and not just release the same kind of album year after year. Shame their ultra-conservative fan base has never supported the band in doing this and in fact still criticize the group for doing it twenty years on. No wonder we have such dull setlists nowadays.

Both of those albums are low on my list of Journey albums. "Trial By Fire" is probably better, start to finish, since it's weaker songs are not as bad as those on "Raised on Radio". However, the stronger songs are better on ROR than on TBF, so I would give it the slight advantage.

Matthew wrote:

tj wrote:they may have encouraged more of that style rather that what had worked well on the previous 2 albums.

Or maybe - shock horror - Journey themselves decided to experiment a bit and develop their sound - and not just release the same kind of album year after year. Shame their ultra-conservative fan base has never supported the band in doing this and in fact still criticize the group for doing it twenty years on. No wonder we have such dull setlists nowadays.

I think that's something they did successfully with "Arrival", on songs like "Livin' to Do", "World Gone Wild", "Kiss Me Softly", "We Will Meet Again", and even the awful "All the Things". Unfortunately, most Journey fans aren't as accepting of new material as I would hope.

conversationpc wrote:

Matthew wrote:

tj wrote:they may have encouraged more of that style rather that what had worked well on the previous 2 albums.

Or maybe - shock horror - Journey themselves decided to experiment a bit and develop their sound - and not just release the same kind of album year after year. Shame their ultra-conservative fan base has never supported the band in doing this and in fact still criticize the group for doing it twenty years on. No wonder we have such dull setlists nowadays.

I think that's something they did successfully with "Arrival", on songs like "Livin' to Do", "World Gone Wild", "Kiss Me Softly", "We Will Meet Again", and even the awful "All the Things". Unfortunately, most Journey fans aren't as accepting of new material as I would hope.

Maybe I need to listen to those songs again. My memory of Arrival was that it was a pastiche of generic 80s AOR rather than an exciting new direction for the group....

Raised on Radio is better than TBF, though I like them both. And had Steve Perry been on Arrival I think it would have been a huge success. It's just weak vocally, but the musicianship is awesome.

Neither album is worth hocking a loogie over, compared to the previous albums.

strangegrey wrote:Neither album is worth hocking a loogie over, compared to the previous albums.

They're better than Evolution....

tj wrote:Granted, TBF was 15 years later. Even so, I think that much time could have produced some better songs.

See,my opinion is that too much time apart killed whatever was there in the 80s.They've been separated for too long.
Even if TBF was in fact a reunion,I guess there were too many things they didn't sort out between them and that affected the songwriting.
They were still fabulous musicians after the 15 year gap,but the camaraderie was gone for the most part.
That's why TBF is an artistical masterpiece,but lacks that personal magic touch their heyday albums had.TBF sounds much "colder" than any other Journey album.

This band's success was based on the chemistry/friendship between its members.Also,as long as they really believed in what they were doing they have perfectly worked together and the material they released between 1978 - 1983 is the proof.
Soon as their personal issues became stronger than their common goals,the feel of the music had to suffer.

For me,both ROR and TBF are exceptions to the rule.Both albums were born in special circumstances and are musically controversial.
I love them both for different reasons,can't really decide which one's the "best".

ROR is darker brown with more pieces of corn than TBF. But TBF smells better because it is newer. So it's really a toss up.

Matthew wrote:

strangegrey wrote:Neither album is worth hocking a loogie over, compared to the previous albums.

They're better than Evolution....

NealIsGod wrote:ROR is darker brown with more pieces of corn than TBF. But TBF smells better because it is newer. So it's really a toss up.

Nah, once it dries up, it doesn't smell quite as bad.

conversationpc wrote:

Matthew wrote:

strangegrey wrote:Neither album is worth hocking a loogie over, compared to the previous albums.

They're better than Evolution....

I have a hard time choosing between the two. They are my two favorite Journey albums. I think they're both better overall than Infinity, Departure or Evolution even though there are some individual songs on each of those three that I like better than some of the songs on ROR or TBF. I like the best songs on the last two better than anything that came before them though.

Matthew wrote:

strangegrey wrote:Neither album is worth hocking a loogie over, compared to the previous albums.

They're better than Evolution....

Go get professional help...now!!

strangegrey wrote:Go get professional help...now!!

I've never understood what's so great about the combination of Perry at his squeakiest...the leaden, poorly-produced drums...and Rolie's sub-ELO vocals....

No...give me the glittering, pristine majesty that is ROR...and the maturity, melancholy and absurd recording budget of TBF any day....

I'll second Dave's answer: TBF - more listenable songs. ROR - less listenable songs, but higher quality.

I like TBF much better than ROR. Although there are some snoozers on TBF, there are more rockers than on ROR. I also connected more with some of the slower songs on TBF than I did with ROR.

Socratic Methodist wrote:I'll second Dave's answer: TBF - more listenable songs. ROR - less listenable songs, but higher quality.

TBF has listenable songs? Jesus, where do you people come from? Did you people take the blue pill or the red pill?

There are four songs that are even remotely listenable on TBF...and one of them never made it to the US release!

strangegrey wrote:

Socratic Methodist wrote:I'll second Dave's answer: TBF - more listenable songs. ROR - less listenable songs, but higher quality.

TBF has listenable songs? Jesus, where do you people come from? Did you people take the blue pill or the red pill?

There are four songs that are even remotely listenable on TBF...and one of them never made it to the US release!

5, Message of Love, If He Should Break Your Heart, Can't Tame the Lion, Trial By Fire, and I Can See it in Your Eyes.

conversationpc wrote:

strangegrey wrote:

Socratic Methodist wrote:I'll second Dave's answer: TBF - more listenable songs. ROR - less listenable songs, but higher quality.

TBF has listenable songs? Jesus, where do you people come from? Did you people take the blue pill or the red pill?

There are four songs that are even remotely listenable on TBF...and one of them never made it to the US release!

5, Message of Love, If He Should Break Your Heart, Can't Tame the Lion, Trial By Fire, and I Can See it in Your Eyes.

9, One More, It's Just The Rain, Forever In Blue, When You Love A Woman

Matthew wrote:

tj wrote:they may have encouraged more of that style rather that what had worked well on the previous 2 albums.

Or maybe - shock horror - Journey themselves decided to experiment a bit and develop their sound - and not just release the same kind of album year after year. Shame their ultra-conservative fan base has never supported the band in doing this and in fact still criticize the group for doing it twenty years on. No wonder we have such dull setlists nowadays.

Actually, I really liked Trial by Fire! I thought the sound had matured and it remains a favorite of mine with "Still She Cries" as the top song.

Raised on Radio was great, too, only I've always believed it felt more like a Steve Perry solo album with Journey musicians backing him up - does that make sense? It sounded very Perry and less like Journey. And my favorite song of that is "Happy to Give".

If I had to make a decision, I'd actually take TBF and ROR over Escape and Frontiers - maybe because I'm a little burnt on those albums.

Matthew wrote:

strangegrey wrote:Go get professional help...now!!

I've never understood what's so great about the combination of Perry at his squeakiest...the leaden, poorly-produced drums...and Rolie's sub-ELO vocals....

No...give me the glittering, pristine majesty that is ROR...and the maturity, melancholy and absurd recording budget of TBF any day....

That last line is a classic! Well said!!!!! (But I happen to like Evolution, too, just not as much...great photo on the back...Steve in that red shirt...uh oh, I'm heading into Loonie-ville! )

Everybody wanted an Escape II....and it was never going to happen. They shot their wad on that release. Jumped the Shark, if you will.

Both ROR and TBF are decent efforts. 'When I Think of You' is a top-notch song on TBF, that NEVER gets any play.

You have to realize that certain albums/styles find their niches sort of serendiptitiously. Escape came about at the right time. It was all downhill from there. So why try and make a part deux? They changed the style slightly with Frontiers, and then changed it drastically for ROR. Wouldn't it be boring to not evolve? What if in '81 they were still stuck in the Fusion style? You'd hate that, too?

Lightning RARELY strikes twice in the music industry....listeners are too damn fickle.

Matthew wrote:

conversationpc wrote:

strangegrey wrote:

Socratic Methodist wrote:I'll second Dave's answer: TBF - more listenable songs. ROR - less listenable songs, but higher quality.

TBF has listenable songs? Jesus, where do you people come from? Did you people take the blue pill or the red pill?

There are four songs that are even remotely listenable on TBF...and one of them never made it to the US release!

5, Message of Love, If He Should Break Your Heart, Can't Tame the Lion, Trial By Fire, and I Can See it in Your Eyes.

9, One More, It's Just The Rain, Forever In Blue, When You Love A Woman

10, Still She Cries ( I had to do it!)

Raised On Radio gets my vote.

My Top 3 from ROR: I'll Be Alright Without You, It Could Have Been You, Once You Love Somebody
My Top 3 from TBF: One More, Still She Cries, Can't Tame the Lion

They're neck and neck in the upper middle of my Journey rankings.

1. Journey
2. Frontiers
3. Escape
4. Infinity
5. Trial by Fire
6. Raised on Radio
7. Departure
8. Arrival
9. Generations
10. Look into the Future
11. Next
12. Evolution

I think your the only one I have ever seen to rate their debut
album as tops............pretty cool ProgRocker53.

I think it's hard to compare the two. It's a case of apples and oranges. I like Trial By Fire more because of it's maturity in sound. Yes, I wished it had some harder rockin' tunes on it, but it was the right type of album to make for a more mature Journey. I think it is an album that sets them apart from just being a rock band. The songs are well written with great melodies yet an updated sound which would've scored huge points for them had Journey been able to have toured behind it and had promoted more.

That's not to say I didn't like ROR. There are some songs on that album I really like....Be Good To Yourself, Suzanne, Girl Can't Help It....but I think the album would've been stronger if Ross and Steve Smith were on that record.

Socratic Methodist wrote:Everybody wanted an Escape II....and it was never going to happen. They shot their wad on that release. Jumped the Shark, if you will.

Both ROR and TBF are decent efforts. 'When I Think of You' is a top-notch song on TBF, that NEVER gets any play.

You have to realize that certain albums/styles find their niches sort of serendiptitiously. Escape came about at the right time. It was all downhill from there. So why try and make a part deux? They changed the style slightly with Frontiers, and then changed it drastically for ROR. Wouldn't it be boring to not evolve? What if in '81 they were still stuck in the Fusion style? You'd hate that, too?

Lightning RARELY strikes twice in the music industry....listeners are too damn fickle.

I agree. Sometimes bands take a plunge with changing their style, others hit it big, but I think all bands have to have evolving sound in order to keep things new and interesting.