MR

There is often a lot of talk about Journey's sound. Most people obviously associate it with the vocal stylings of Steve Perry. That makes sense to a degree since the vocals tend to be a focal point of a band, especially when dealing with someone as distinctive as Steve Perry. But there is so much more th it than that. Journey has a distinct sound regardless of the vocals and much of that is due to Neal's guitar playing.

But I was listening to my iPod last night at work when Where Were You came on. I haven't been listening to much Journey because of all the drama lately but this song sounded great. And as I listened to it I came up with my opinion of where Journey's sound changed the most. For me, it was not the addition of Perry to vocals because you can easily here characteristics of the pre-Perry material on Infinity as well as Evolution and Departure. Drummingchanged a lot when Smitty came on board, but that is not as obvious to most people. And I was thinking about the fact that I always point to the addition of Cain as the biggest factor on Journey's success. But not even his lyrical addition made the biggest change in sound. I do think, however, that he is still the cause of the biggest change.

With the addition of Jon Cain to the band we got a change in the primary songwriter. Of course he was a part of the triumvirate know as Perry/Cain/Schon but he definately affected the songs. And since he was likely bringing in more material than the others I think the WAY songs were worked on changed. In the past I think it is likely that song ideas started on the guitar. The riff on Where Were You exemplified this. I think Neal would likely bust out a riff or song structure that the guys would then work around. With Cain coming in I think that starting point changed to the piano. Simply the instrument of choice but I think that is what led the band to sound different. That is what led the band away from sounding "rock".

I wish someone would lead them back....Neal?

Never thought about the piano angle before. Good observation.

Rolie packed up the Hammond B3 and said:

"Screw you guys, I'm goin' home."

I think you are right, the change between Rollie and Cain did completely change the sound to me, and I agree that Cain's songwriting totally turned the corner on their progression as a band.

But.......on my Perry soapbox now, if Perry wasn't the primary Journey sound, how come they keep trying to replace his voice to return to the Journey "legacy sound"? Cain is still there.

Really though, I attribute it to Cain/Perry songwriting and being able to focus the songwriting to Perry's voice. They didn't do that before because Rollie had a big part in the vocals when he was there.

jrnyman28 wrote:There is often a lot of talk about Journey's sound. Most people obviously associate it with the vocal stylings of Steve Perry. That makes sense to a degree since the vocals tend to be a focal point of a band, especially when dealing with someone as distinctive as Steve Perry. But there is so much more th it than that. Journey has a distinct sound regardless of the vocals and much of that is due to Neal's guitar playing.

But I was listening to my iPod last night at work when Where Were You came on. I haven't been listening to much Journey because of all the drama lately but this song sounded great. And as I listened to it I came up with my opinion of where Journey's sound changed the most. For me, it was not the addition of Perry to vocals because you can easily here characteristics of the pre-Perry material on Infinity as well as Evolution and Departure. Drummingchanged a lot when Smitty came on board, but that is not as obvious to most people. And I was thinking about the fact that I always point to the addition of Cain as the biggest factor on Journey's success. But not even his lyrical addition made the biggest change in sound. I do think, however, that he is still the cause of the biggest change.

With the addition of Jon Cain to the band we got a change in the primary songwriter. Of course he was a part of the triumvirate know as Perry/Cain/Schon but he definately affected the songs. And since he was likely bringing in more material than the others I think the WAY songs were worked on changed. In the past I think it is likely that song ideas started on the guitar. The riff on Where Were You exemplified this. I think Neal would likely bust out a riff or song structure that the guys would then work around. With Cain coming in I think that starting point changed to the piano. Simply the instrument of choice but I think that is what led the band to sound different. That is what led the band away from sounding "rock".

I agree with this. Add to that the fact that it seems Cain's musical taste, at least when writing, leans much more to the easy listening, ballad type of song.

On a different tangent, regarding Perry and the FTLOSM record, came across sounding more like something Cain would have written in my opinion. Not what I would have expected after Journey or Steet Talk and from someone who's main professed main influence was Motown/R&B.

I am sure age can be a factor also.

journeyrock wrote:But.......on my Perry soapbox now, if Perry wasn't the primary Journey sound, how come they keep trying to replace his voice to return to the Journey "legacy sound"? Cain is still there.

As I said, the vocals are the most immediate identity of a band. The singer is out front, he is giving us the lyrics, he is the focal point, so he becomes the easiest to identify with a sound. But the music is an equally big of it, just more overlooked...

StoneCold wrote:Rolie packed up the Hammond B3 and said:

"Screw you guys, I'm goin' home."

The Hammond certainly rocked more than the Whale...

somethingtohide wrote:

Never thought about the piano angle before. Good observation.

It was sort of an epiphany while listening.

jrnyman28 wrote:

journeyrock wrote:But.......on my Perry soapbox now, if Perry wasn't the primary Journey sound, how come they keep trying to replace his voice to return to the Journey "legacy sound"? Cain is still there.

As I said, the vocals are the most immediate identity of a band. The singer is out front, he is giving us the lyrics, he is the focal point, so he becomes the easiest to identify with a sound. But the music is an equally big of it, just more overlooked...

I agree!

jrnyman28 wrote:There is often a lot of talk about Journey's sound. Most people obviously associate it with the vocal stylings of Steve Perry. That makes sense to a degree since the vocals tend to be a focal point of a band, especially when dealing with someone as distinctive as Steve Perry. But there is so much more th it than that. Journey has a distinct sound regardless of the vocals and much of that is due to Neal's guitar playing.

But I was listening to my iPod last night at work when Where Were You came on. I haven't been listening to much Journey because of all the drama lately but this song sounded great. And as I listened to it I came up with my opinion of where Journey's sound changed the most. For me, it was not the addition of Perry to vocals because you can easily here characteristics of the pre-Perry material on Infinity as well as Evolution and Departure. Drummingchanged a lot when Smitty came on board, but that is not as obvious to most people. And I was thinking about the fact that I always point to the addition of Cain as the biggest factor on Journey's success. But not even his lyrical addition made the biggest change in sound. I do think, however, that he is still the cause of the biggest change.

With the addition of Jon Cain to the band we got a change in the primary songwriter. Of course he was a part of the triumvirate know as Perry/Cain/Schon but he definately affected the songs. And since he was likely bringing in more material than the others I think the WAY songs were worked on changed. In the past I think it is likely that song ideas started on the guitar. The riff on Where Were You exemplified this. I think Neal would likely bust out a riff or song structure that the guys would then work around. With Cain coming in I think that starting point changed to the piano. Simply the instrument of choice but I think that is what led the band to sound different. That is what led the band away from sounding "rock".

We have a winner.. I've known this forever.. Look at how much deeper the songs became when Cain came aboard.. Your write about the fact that they went from writing music off Neal's licks to Cain piano..But I think it would go back and forth.. If you listen to the music you can totally tell ..World gone wild was off Neal's guitar.. Or Faith in the heartland originated it.. Its almost if they go rock,they start with the guitar or piano for ballads..I think Cain is now responsible for the lyrics..Before it was Perry/Cain for the most part.. Or Perry/Rollie..

The complete change in the band's style that happened with ROR is the worst thing that ever happened to the band, IMO.

SF-Dano wrote:With Cain coming in I think that starting point changed to the piano. Simply the instrument of choice but I think that is what led the band to sound different. That is what led the band away from sounding "rock".

I agree with this. Add to that the fact that it seems Cain's musical taste, at least when writing, leans much more to the easy listening, ballad type of song.[/quote][/quote]

Definately a different focus fro Cain. He is more commercial, more pop, more radio-friendly. Even comparing pre-Cain ballads to his own...he has a mushy, lovey-dovey, romantic vibe. Before there was a little more edge. So I started thinking that had tocome from the song origins. And I have to wonder if it boils down to the instrument the song is written on...

SF-Dano wrote:On a different tangent, regarding Perry and the FTLOSM record, came across sounding more like something Cain would have written in my opinion. Not what I would have expected after Journey or Steet Talk and from someone who's main professed main influence was Motown/R&B.

I am sure age can be a factor also.

I just mentioned in another thread that FTLOSM was the first time I heard something by Perry (or Journey) where I knew what he was trying to do, but it felt like he missed the mark. IMO something was missing. And I wonder,now that you mention it, if FTLOSM was Perry's idea of a Journey CD but without Cain's help. Whereas Street Talk was a true Steve Perry solo CD.

NealIsGod wrote:The complete change in the band's style that happened with ROR is the worst thing that ever happened to the band, IMO.

Agreed. And we all know that Neal was very removed from that project. It was almost completely the Perry/Cain show.

IMO ROR ONLY sounds like an evolution of Journey BECAUSE of Perry's Street Talk. His solo CD bridges the gap between Frontiers and ROR...

Cain's input in songwriting changed a LOT up to that point. He's been a primary songwriter since he joined the band - Take that, and his belief that "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" is the greatest song ever written, and you might have your answer!

as soon as cain joined the band was instantly more radio friendly and commercial.journey was more of an album oriented type band with gregg rollie.just look at all the wildly successful singles on the first journey release with cain titled escape.they had three top ten singles on that album.then came frontiers continuing in that respect.however raised on radio the sound changed drastically,i call it street talk 2.it sounds like perry second solo album if he would've made one.the guitar got neutered on ROR big time.there are no rubicons or lay it downs on raised on radio and neal was lost in the shuffle.raised on radio suffered without steve smith also.ROR is a good album.BUT it is not good compared with past journey releases.the bar was very high and they failed to reach it on that release.the last true journey album was frontiers in my opinion.raised on radio and trial by fire are both like the banished step children of journey releases.they are way more poppier and commercial and steve had a big hand in that.also there wasn't much live stuff on these two releases as far as tour support compared to other past albums.78-98 were the perry years.everything else pales in comparison within the group.......

Jeremey wrote:Cain's input in songwriting changed a LOT up to that point. He's been a primary songwriter since he joined the band - Take that, and his belief that "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" is the greatest song ever written, and you might have your answer!

I like Somewhere Over The Rainbow when done by that Hawaiin dude with the ukelele (found in 50 First Dates)!

Jeremey wrote:
. . . and his belief that "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" is the greatest song ever written, and you might have your answer!

Can't wait to hear a JrnyFried version of that.

mikemarrs wrote:as soon as cain joined the band was instantly more radio friendly and commercial.journey was more of an album oriented type band with gregg rollie.just look at all the wildly successful singles on the first journey release with cain titled escape.they had three top ten singles on that album.then came frontiers continuing in that respect.however raised on radio the sound changed drastically,i call it street talk 2.it sounds like perry second solo album if he would've made one.the guitar got neutered on ROR big time.there are no rubicons or lay it downs on raised on radio and neal was lost in the shuffle.raised on radio suffered without steve smith also.ROR is a good album.BUT it is not good compared with past journey releases.the bar was very high and they failed to reach it on that release.the last true journey album was frontiers in my opinion.raised on radio and trial by fire are both like the banished step children of journey releases.they are way more poppier and commercial and steve had a big hand in that.also there wasn't much live stuff on these two releases as far as tour support compared to other past albums.78-98 were the perry years.everything else pales in comparison within the group.......

Matthew should be here any second to champion your slight against ROR.

I for one agree with you. ROR is a good record, just not when compared to those that came before it. I hated most of it back when it was released though. I guess we do mellow with age.

jrnyman28 wrote:

Jeremey wrote:Cain's input in songwriting changed a LOT up to that point. He's been a primary songwriter since he joined the band - Take that, and his belief that "Somewhere Over The Rainbow" is the greatest song ever written, and you might have your answer!

I like Somewhere Over The Rainbow when done by that Hawaiin dude with the ukelele (found in 50 First Dates)!

i LOVE that version! (i love the original, too. but greatest song ever written? & it is an interesting choice for a 'rock' star.)

mikemarrs wrote:raised on radio suffered without steve smith also.

So you think Positive Touch and Eyes of a Woman were the highlights of ROR, Mike?

jrnyman28 wrote:That is what led the band away from sounding "rock".

Except Cain co-wrote some of the heaviest, guitar-driven tracks Journey have ever recorded....such as Edge of the Blade and Keep on Runnin'. And there are only four straightahead ballads on the first three albums Cain was featured on...

Interesting timing as I just posted comments on a different thread that the loss of Perry's influence as a songwriter has had a huge impact. Everyone keeps talking about "the voice" and as important as that is, many seem to overlook his contributions as a songwriter.

Ironically, I listened to alot of the classic songs from Infinity, Evolution, on... as well as SP's solo stuff just last night on my IPod and I had forgotten how damn good many of those songs sounded. Many that I didn't care that much for 20+ years ago sounded awesome. There just seemed to be much more to them than the post-Perry stuff. Bring back the B3 by the way. I encourage all to go back and listen to what Rolie contributed as well. His keyboards and vocals are sure missed today.

Radio is dead and new material will never be played regardless how good. I didn't once hear anything off Trial by Fire on the radio. I even called the local radio station and they indicated they couldn't do it. Considering this, I wish they'd go back to the pre-Escape genre. Change it up!

Matthew wrote:

jrnyman28 wrote:That is what led the band away from sounding "rock".

Except Cain co-wrote some of the heaviest, guitar-driven tracks Journey have ever recorded....such as Edge of the Blade and Keep on Runnin'. And there are only four straightahead ballads on the first three albums Cain was featured on...

But I have to wonder if those started with Schon on the guitar and then he added. It is still mostly speculation on my part but I would say that the heavier stuff started with Neal and a riff. But the "majority" of Journey's material after Cain's arrival likely was started/written on piano.

jrnyman28 wrote:

Matthew wrote:

jrnyman28 wrote:That is what led the band away from sounding "rock".

Except Cain co-wrote some of the heaviest, guitar-driven tracks Journey have ever recorded....such as Edge of the Blade and Keep on Runnin'. And there are only four straightahead ballads on the first three albums Cain was featured on...

But I have to wonder if those started with Schon on the guitar and then he added. It is still mostly speculation on my part but I would say that the heavier stuff started with Neal and a riff. But the "majority" of Journey's material after Cain's arrival likely was started/written on piano.

Yes...I'm sure you're right, Jrnyman. It just that it often surprises me that Escape and Frontiers - which are Journey's heaviest albums by some distance - are so often described as soft and commercial because of Cain's influence. It's like people have forgotten what these two records actually sound like.

If anything, Journey stepped it up when Cain joined even allowing for the central role of the piano in the way the songs were composed.

jrnyman28 wrote:IMO ROR ONLY sounds like an evolution of Journey BECAUSE of Perry's Street Talk. His solo CD bridges the gap between Frontiers and ROR...

I know what you mean...but this theory would be more convincing if Street Talk came after ROR. Aside from a couple of misguided tracks like Once You Love Somebody , ROR still sounds like a classic Journey album to me...whereas Street Talk is even more focused on Perry's voice and has a much more lightweight production and few of the big highs and lows that Journey used to do so well.

In hindsight ROR was probably too much of a sudden shift...but given that most of us complain the whole time that Journey are stuck in a rut and take no creative risks...ROR does at least represent a time when Journey were taking some unexpected directions.

In fact, I'd say that ROR was Journey's last truly creative and progressive work...and everything since has lamely tried to recreate a formula that Journey were tiring of even in 1984.

NealIsGod wrote:The complete change in the band's style that happened with ROR is the worst thing that ever happened to the band, IMO.

I'll second or third that opinion.

Where did the testosterone go?

jrnyman28 wrote:There is often a lot of talk about Journey's sound. Most people obviously associate it with the vocal stylings of Steve Perry. That makes sense to a degree since the vocals tend to be a focal point of a band, especially when dealing with someone as distinctive as Steve Perry. But there is so much more th it than that. Journey has a distinct sound regardless of the vocals and much of that is due to Neal's guitar playing.

But I was listening to my iPod last night at work when Where Were You came on. I haven't been listening to much Journey because of all the drama lately but this song sounded great. And as I listened to it I came up with my opinion of where Journey's sound changed the most. For me, it was not the addition of Perry to vocals because you can easily here characteristics of the pre-Perry material on Infinity as well as Evolution and Departure. Drummingchanged a lot when Smitty came on board, but that is not as obvious to most people. And I was thinking about the fact that I always point to the addition of Cain as the biggest factor on Journey's success. But not even his lyrical addition made the biggest change in sound. I do think, however, that he is still the cause of the biggest change.

With the addition of Jon Cain to the band we got a change in the primary songwriter. Of course he was a part of the triumvirate know as Perry/Cain/Schon but he definately affected the songs. And since he was likely bringing in more material than the others I think the WAY songs were worked on changed. In the past I think it is likely that song ideas started on the guitar. The riff on Where Were You exemplified this. I think Neal would likely bust out a riff or song structure that the guys would then work around. With Cain coming in I think that starting point changed to the piano. Simply the instrument of choice but I think that is what led the band to sound different. That is what led the band away from sounding "rock".

I have to agree with you post. I'll take you back to the band that jonathan was in prior to Journey. The Babys had a different sound when Michael Corby was the keyboardist as opposed to the sound the developed after Mike left and Jon joined there is that certin "thing" that's lets you know it's Cain. Yjis is also evident in Bad English aswell. Whar is unique will Jonathan is that his solo stuff is far different than hsi rock band persona.

somethingtohide wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:The complete change in the band's style that happened with ROR is the worst thing that ever happened to the band, IMO.

I'll second or third that opinion.

Where did the testosterone go?

It went on Neal Schon's greatest ever guitar solo which is of course on Be Good To Yourself. Those three minutes are better than the hours of unmemorable widdling he's recorded since....

WickedGail wrote:

jrnyman28 wrote:There is often a lot of talk about Journey's sound. Most people obviously associate it with the vocal stylings of Steve Perry. That makes sense to a degree since the vocals tend to be a focal point of a band, especially when dealing with someone as distinctive as Steve Perry. But there is so much more th it than that. Journey has a distinct sound regardless of the vocals and much of that is due to Neal's guitar playing.

But I was listening to my iPod last night at work when Where Were You came on. I haven't been listening to much Journey because of all the drama lately but this song sounded great. And as I listened to it I came up with my opinion of where Journey's sound changed the most. For me, it was not the addition of Perry to vocals because you can easily here characteristics of the pre-Perry material on Infinity as well as Evolution and Departure. Drummingchanged a lot when Smitty came on board, but that is not as obvious to most people. And I was thinking about the fact that I always point to the addition of Cain as the biggest factor on Journey's success. But not even his lyrical addition made the biggest change in sound. I do think, however, that he is still the cause of the biggest change.

With the addition of Jon Cain to the band we got a change in the primary songwriter. Of course he was a part of the triumvirate know as Perry/Cain/Schon but he definately affected the songs. And since he was likely bringing in more material than the others I think the WAY songs were worked on changed. In the past I think it is likely that song ideas started on the guitar. The riff on Where Were You exemplified this. I think Neal would likely bust out a riff or song structure that the guys would then work around. With Cain coming in I think that starting point changed to the piano. Simply the instrument of choice but I think that is what led the band to sound different. That is what led the band away from sounding "rock".

I have to agree with you post. I'll take you back to the band that jonathan was in prior to Journey. The Babys had a different sound when Michael Corby was the keyboardist as opposed to the sound the developed after Mike left and Jon joined there is that certin "thing" that's lets you know it's Cain. Yjis is also evident in Bad English aswell. Whar is unique will Jonathan is that his solo stuff is far different than hsi rock band persona.

I'm a bit confused what the point is here. That Jonathan Cain is a distinctive song-writer? Is this news?

NealIsGod wrote:The complete change in the band's style that happened with ROR is the worst thing that ever happened to the band, IMO.

ROR was when Perry took control of the band.. It was a Sp album with Cain and Schon in tow...