MR

I was watching the live Foreigner DVD with Kelly Hansen at AR's house recently, and was blown away by how much better they sound now and how much more energy they have than when I saw them open for Journey back in 1999 or so. Gramm was in the band back then, and just sounded lousy. The band looked old and tired.

The live DVD with the new lineup kicks so much ass. Hearing those songs played live in 2007 with new members and a new singer, even though it's not Gramm, is a very good thing.

But you know what? I am sure there are some Gramm "loons" who think the band shouldn't go on without him, no matter what. "Fans" that would rather let Foreigner fade into oblivion than recruit new members and fans. Gramm was a great singer in his day and was a huge part of Foreigner's success. But he isn't bigger than the band and its songs, just as Perry isn't bigger than Journey and its songs.

I have their new cd, but will hold off on the new dvd (9 songs only, all of which already are on the live album?) but i'll be watching new years eve to see what they're like.

I saw them on the Journey double-header and in 02 and despite Gramm's deeper vox still thought they rocked.

Gramm didn't move around much (he's all over the place, pre tumor on the 94 dvd) but Mick Jones was/is playing phenomenal since the '99 tour on.

Hanson does do a stunning fascimile of pre-brain tumor Gramm, though.

Still, I'd've preferred they get Johnny Edwards back if not Gramm (who seems to have multiple axes to grin w/ Jones).

NealIsGod wrote:I was watching the live Foreigner DVD with Kelly Hansen at AR's house recently, and was blown away by how much better they sound now and how much more energy they have than when I saw them open for Journey back in 1999 or so. Gramm was in the band back then, and just sounded lousy. The band looked old and tired.

The live DVD with the new lineup kicks so much ass. Hearing those songs played live in 2007 with new members and a new singer, even though it's not Gramm, is a very good thing.

But you know what? I am sure there are some Gramm "loons" who think the band shouldn't go on without him, no matter what. "Fans" that would rather let Foreigner fade into oblivion than recruit new members and fans. Gramm was a great singer in his day and was a huge part of Foreigner's success. But he isn't bigger than the band and its songs, just as Perry isn't bigger than Journey and its songs.

I agree with you to a large extent, NIG. That a band can still find energy and continue on, and - here is the important part - maintain a passion for what they do, is very inspiring. There are a lot of bands out there with original members from the 80s that were just fantastic and would love to keep playing and gigging, but have a tough time finding people willing to book them. The fact that other bands still have a huge following and demand for what they did speaks volumes.

That being said, I have the same feelings for bands like Foreigner, Styx, and Journey, and others that have continued on while replacing seminal members of the band (in most cases the singers - What is it with those prima donnas?! )....In my view, nothing takes away from what the original band accomplished. Whether it's the memory of Lou singing "Dirty White Boy" or Dennis belting out "Loralei" or Mr P's "Only The Young," those are the artists, the bands if you will, that captured the place in our hearts when we first heard it, had our first beer, went to our first concert, or stole that first kiss. That snapshot in time will never be replaced or replicated. That these bands can continue on with different members and different singers is a testament to the power of those songs and the memories that we hold on to. Foreigner with Kelly kicks ass, all the way, no doubt about it. But in the same way that Journey kicked ass with Steve Augeri or Jeff Scott Soto, or Arnel Pineda, what I'm seeing is a band recreating those songs...It' great that Mick or Tommy or Neal can be on stage and deliver the goods, but what's stuck in our minds for so long is the memory of seeing Perry spinning across the stage or Dennis wearing a robot mask and a tutu, and the magic of hearing it for the first time and what everything meant when you felt different for having heard it the first time.

When I saw Judas Priest for the first time last year, with Rob Halford, it was something very different it would have been had Tim Owens been fronting the band. Not because the band was Rob, but because the band was The Band. It would have been fun to hear those songs with Tim, and cool to see KK and Glenn, etc. but it would have been a mildly entertaining evening of music. Seeing "The Band," as it were, was different though. I saw Judas Priest, and I saw Rob and Glenn and KK trading solos and I experienced what I experienced way back as a teenager and had Judas Priest written on my Biology notebook.

Hope that makes sense.

Here I thought it was a tour announcement,

If you like AOR bands, a replacement that gets them out on road is better than nothing. "Who" the replacement should be will always be up for debate but moot point now.

Niggy, any idea what happened to Johnny Edwards? One cd and poof, haven't heard a thing from him.

Foreigner is a band that I feel has only benefited from the lineup changes. They kicked so much butt when I saw them last year (or earlier this year -- can't remember), it wasn't even funny. I have always been a huge Kelly Hansen fan, as well as Jeff Pilson. It was the first show I've ever gone to just to see the replacement musicians, really.

I have yet to hear a single bad comment about the new Foreigner, and I guess that says something.

BTW, Jeremey, I did see Priest once w/Tim Owens, and they rocked! Got to meet them after the show, and Glenn was really impressed that I had his solo disc "Baptizm of Fire" with me. Really kinda deja vu, as in the same club, Don Dokken was impressed that I had "Up From The Ashes" with me. I guess they know the hardcore fans when they meet them.... haha!

Jeremey wrote:It' great that Mick or Tommy or Neal can be on stage and deliver the goods, but what's stuck in our minds for so long is the memory of seeing Perry spinning across the stage or Dennis wearing a robot mask and a tutu, and the magic of hearing it for the first time and what everything meant when you felt different for having heard it the first time.

Not my mind, which is why I was thrilled to have Augeri, JSS, and would've been thrilled to have you doing it. Still Journey or Foreigner to me.

Red13JoePa wrote:
Not my mind, which is why I was thrilled to have Augeri, JSS, and would've been thrilled to have you doing it. Still Journey or Foreigner to me.

I know what you mean, Red, for me there will always be the music (ie the songs) and then the band. I knew I wouldn't have been a replacement for Perry/Augeri/JSS so much as I would have been a vehicle for the band to continue playing the songs, but everyone has a different view on their favorite bands and what defines them.

Rip Rokken wrote:BTW, Jeremey, I did see Priest once w/Tim Owens, and they rocked! Got to meet them after the show, and Glenn was really impressed that I had his solo disc "Baptizm of Fire" with me. Really kinda deja vu, as in the same club, Don Dokken was impressed that I had "Up From The Ashes" with me. I guess they know the hardcore fans when they meet them.... haha!

Would have loved to have seen Priest with The Ripper as well - I had really moved on from Priest when he was with the band, so didn't buy any of his records, but it would have been cool to see the band in a different form than what I had built them up as in my mind...

I saw Kansas with John Elefante in Oklahoma City in '83 and while it wasn't Steve Walsh, the show was still excellent w/Shooting Star as the opening band. You know, Steve Walsh can't be replaced, but that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy anything the band did without him---

NealIsGod wrote:I was watching the live Foreigner DVD with Kelly Hansen at AR's house recently, and was blown away by how much better they sound now and how much more energy they have than when I saw them open for Journey back in 1999 or so. Gramm was in the band back then, and just sounded lousy. The band looked old and tired.

The live DVD with the new lineup kicks so much ass. Hearing those songs played live in 2007 with new members and a new singer, even though it's not Gramm, is a very good thing.

But you know what? I am sure there are some Gramm "loons" who think the band shouldn't go on without him, no matter what. "Fans" that would rather let Foreigner fade into oblivion than recruit new members and fans. Gramm was a great singer in his day and was a huge part of Foreigner's success. But he isn't bigger than the band and its songs, just as Perry isn't bigger than Journey and its songs.

And when Hanson writes new songs that suck tell me about Lou looking old and tired
Same with Perry he was part of the writing team you forget about that.
Im sure Kelly sounds great singing Lou but thats where it ends

Arnel will be the same
The guys stage presence stinks
The JRNY is over for me

NealIsGod wrote:I was watching the live Foreigner DVD with Kelly Hansen at AR's house recently, and was blown away by how much better they sound now and how much more energy they have than when I saw them open for Journey back in 1999 or so. Gramm was in the band back then, and just sounded lousy. The band looked old and tired.

The live DVD with the new lineup kicks so much ass. Hearing those songs played live in 2007 with new members and a new singer, even though it's not Gramm, is a very good thing.

But you know what? I am sure there are some Gramm "loons" who think the band shouldn't go on without him, no matter what. "Fans" that would rather let Foreigner fade into oblivion than recruit new members and fans. Gramm was a great singer in his day and was a huge part of Foreigner's success. But he isn't bigger than the band and its songs, just as Perry isn't bigger than Journey and its songs.

And when Hanson writes new songs that suck tell me about Lou looking old and tired
Same with Perry he was part of the writing team you forget about that.
Im sure Kelly sounds great singing Lou but thats where it ends

Arnel will be the same
The guys stage presence stinks
The JRNY is over for me

For me, Journey ain't Journey without Perry. Foreigner ain't Foreigner without Gramm, Kansas wasn't Kansas without Walsh and Priest wasn't Priest without Halford (etc, etc.)

Some people chose to move on with these bands new direction (singers), but I chose not to. Just a personal preference.

Johnny Mohawk wrote:For me, Journey ain't Journey without Perry. Foreigner ain't Foreigner without Gramm, Kansas wasn't Kansas without Walsh and Priest wasn't Priest without Halford (etc, etc.)

Some people chose to move on with these bands new direction (singers), but I chose not to. Just a personal preference.

Yep, it might be your preference, but you'll end up missing out on great shows and nice tunes if you don't open the door to favorite bands with new personnel.

progrocker53 wrote;
Yep, it might be your preference, but you'll end up missing out on great shows and nice tunes if you don't open the door to favorite bands with new personnel.

For me, they aren't great shows without the singer that drew me to the band in the first place. And as far as "nice tunes" go, let's face it, when you see any of these bands live with their replacement singers, they pretty much only play the old hits (from the former singer) anyway. So even if they are capable of writing new quality songs, most people would never get the chance to hear them live regardless.

epresley wrote:I saw Kansas with John Elefante in Oklahoma City in '83 and while it wasn't Steve Walsh, the show was still excellent w/Shooting Star as the opening band. You know, Steve Walsh can't be replaced, but that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy anything the band did without him---

It didn't hurt that Elefante was young and an incredible singer in his own right. Walsh would be a difficult cover for just about any singer but Elefante did it admirably.

Red13JoePa wrote:Not my mind, which is why I was thrilled to have Augeri, JSS, and would've been thrilled to have you doing it. Still Journey or Foreigner to me.

Your mind is warped like a Donna Summer LP left out in the Arizona sun.

Dude, how many times do I need to tell you, if you saw Perry, basically you could retire your musical ears, because there was none better and there will never be one as good. Yes 13, he was that good.

Johnny Mohawk wrote:For me, Journey ain't Journey without Perry. Foreigner ain't Foreigner without Gramm, Kansas wasn't Kansas without Walsh and Priest wasn't Priest without Halford (etc, etc.)

Some people chose to move on with these bands new direction (singers), but I chose not to. Just a personal preference.

Good post.

I still think that what makes it work for Foriegner is that Mick Jones wisely chose folks who had strong musical resumes (Bonham, Pilson and, to a lesser extent, Hansen) It gives the band credibility that they might not have had otherwise. They are a dynamite touring unit...but it still ain't really Foreigner, imho...

BTW- I gotta say, though, that I saw those guys in 85 on the AGENT PROVOCATEUR tour, and Lou Gramm's voice was trashed (and this was early in the tour!) I never really thought Lou could carry it off that well live.

Rockindeano wrote:

Red13JoePa wrote:Not my mind, which is why I was thrilled to have Augeri, JSS, and would've been thrilled to have you doing it. Still Journey or Foreigner to me.

Your mind is warped like a Donna Summer LP left out in the Arizona sun.

Dude, how many times do I need to tell you, if you saw Perry, basically you could retire your musical ears, because there was none better and there will never be one as good. Yes 13, he was that good.

Hey Deano did you ever write that book???I'm telling you the shit you come up with has me "rolling"( ) all the fucking time ...so if you do how in the hell do we get a copy?Kick me down one for christmas!!!!!

Jeremey wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:I was watching the live Foreigner DVD with Kelly Hansen at AR's house recently, and was blown away by how much better they sound now and how much more energy they have than when I saw them open for Journey back in 1999 or so. Gramm was in the band back then, and just sounded lousy. The band looked old and tired.

The live DVD with the new lineup kicks so much ass. Hearing those songs played live in 2007 with new members and a new singer, even though it's not Gramm, is a very good thing.

But you know what? I am sure there are some Gramm "loons" who think the band shouldn't go on without him, no matter what. "Fans" that would rather let Foreigner fade into oblivion than recruit new members and fans. Gramm was a great singer in his day and was a huge part of Foreigner's success. But he isn't bigger than the band and its songs, just as Perry isn't bigger than Journey and its songs.

I agree with you to a large extent, NIG. That a band can still find energy and continue on, and - here is the important part - maintain a passion for what they do, is very inspiring. There are a lot of bands out there with original members from the 80s that were just fantastic and would love to keep playing and gigging, but have a tough time finding people willing to book them. The fact that other bands still have a huge following and demand for what they did speaks volumes.

That being said, I have the same feelings for bands like Foreigner, Styx, and Journey, and others that have continued on while replacing seminal members of the band (in most cases the singers - What is it with those prima donnas?! )....In my view, nothing takes away from what the original band accomplished. Whether it's the memory of Lou singing "Dirty White Boy" or Dennis belting out "Loralei" or Mr P's "Only The Young," those are the artists, the bands if you will, that captured the place in our hearts when we first heard it, had our first beer, went to our first concert, or stole that first kiss. That snapshot in time will never be replaced or replicated. That these bands can continue on with different members and different singers is a testament to the power of those songs and the memories that we hold on to. Foreigner with Kelly kicks ass, all the way, no doubt about it. But in the same way that Journey kicked ass with Steve Augeri or Jeff Scott Soto, or Arnel Pineda, what I'm seeing is a band recreating those songs...It' great that Mick or Tommy or Neal can be on stage and deliver the goods, but what's stuck in our minds for so long is the memory of seeing Perry spinning across the stage or Dennis wearing a robot mask and a tutu, and the magic of hearing it for the first time and what everything meant when you felt different for having heard it the first time.

When I saw Judas Priest for the first time last year, with Rob Halford, it was something very different it would have been had Tim Owens been fronting the band. Not because the band was Rob, but because the band was The Band. It would have been fun to hear those songs with Tim, and cool to see KK and Glenn, etc. but it would have been a mildly entertaining evening of music. Seeing "The Band," as it were, was different though. I saw Judas Priest, and I saw Rob and Glenn and KK trading solos and I experienced what I experienced way back as a teenager and had Judas Priest written on my Biology notebook.

Hope that makes sense.

I really like your posts Jer..Intelligent and informative.. Wish more people took your lead.. This was a great post..For a guy that didn't make Journey,its impressive and refreshing for a guy like you to talk the way you do about them.. You have more right than anyone to tear into them..Or maybe not(see Jeff on that one).. You were in their freaking studio..You have more reason to be bitter than anyone,but you exude class! The haters on this board are lucky to get a pic of Neal and you got to play music with the guy..Anyhoo..I remember in like 87 or so when Foreigner came out with Unusual Heat..New lead singer,I don't remember anyone bitching about it..Maybe they did and I didn't hear about it.. The album it great..The guy sounded great,not Lou Gramm great..Like Perry>Augeri.. They were on Letterman or something ,they played the worst song on the whole album and the lead singer sounded like complete shit! Like Neal said..anyone can sound great in the studio,Live is where it counts..

Foreigner is now a joke... just like Journey is... and just like Styx is.

DarwinNebraska wrote:Foreigner is now a joke... just like Journey is... and just like Styx is.

JSS is two levels down..! hater!

Johnny Mohawk wrote:For me, they aren't great shows without the singer that drew me to the band in the first place. And as far as "nice tunes" go, let's face it, when you see any of these bands live with their replacement singers, they pretty much only play the old hits (from the former singer) anyway. So even if they are capable of writing new quality songs, most people would never get the chance to hear them live regardless.

An exception, of course, was Van Halen w/Sammy Hagar.

Rip Rokken wrote:

Johnny Mohawk wrote:For me, they aren't great shows without the singer that drew me to the band in the first place. And as far as "nice tunes" go, let's face it, when you see any of these bands live with their replacement singers, they pretty much only play the old hits (from the former singer) anyway. So even if they are capable of writing new quality songs, most people would never get the chance to hear them live regardless.

An exception, of course, was Van Halen w/Sammy Hagar.

I liked the Brian Howe era from Bad Company too...The "Holy Water" CD still gets regular airplay on my stereo.

Jeremey wrote:When I saw Judas Priest for the first time last year, with Rob Halford, it was something very different it would have been had Tim Owens been fronting the band. Not because the band was Rob, but because the band was The Band. It would have been fun to hear those songs with Tim, and cool to see KK and Glenn, etc. but it would have been a mildly entertaining evening of music. Seeing "The Band," as it were, was different though. I saw Judas Priest, and I saw Rob and Glenn and KK trading solos and I experienced what I experienced way back as a teenager and had Judas Priest written on my Biology notebook.

I agree. I saw Judas Priest a year or so ago also, and there's nothing like hearing a good rock band with the singer that helped make them great.

NealIsGod wrote:Gramm was a great singer in his day and was a huge part of Foreigner's success. But he isn't bigger than the band and its songs, just as Perry isn't bigger than Journey and its songs.

You're right... just as Elvis isn't bigger than his band and its songs... or Mick Jagger... or Steven Tyler... or Brad Delp... or Joe Elliot... or Robert Plant... they're all disposable. Thank God for impersonators and tribute bands who will pass the torch and keep the flame alive.

Johnny Mohawk wrote:
For me, they aren't great shows without the singer that drew me to the band in the first place. And as far as "nice tunes" go, let's face it, when you see any of these bands live with their replacement singers, they pretty much only play the old hits (from the former singer) anyway. So even if they are capable of writing new quality songs, most people would never get the chance to hear them live regardless.

Rip Rokken wrote;
An exception, of course, was Van Halen w/Sammy Hagar.

Absolutely NOT an exception for me. I LOVE the Roth era Halen and have zero interest in the Hagar era stuff.

Rip Rokken wrote:

Johnny Mohawk wrote:For me, they aren't great shows without the singer that drew me to the band in the first place. And as far as "nice tunes" go, let's face it, when you see any of these bands live with their replacement singers, they pretty much only play the old hits (from the former singer) anyway. So even if they are capable of writing new quality songs, most people would never get the chance to hear them live regardless.

An exception, of course, was Van Halen w/Sammy Hagar.

...and AC/DC w/Brian Johnson... and Steve Perry when he replaced Robert Fleischman in Journey.

epresley wrote:I saw Kansas with John Elefante in Oklahoma City in '83 and while it wasn't Steve Walsh, the show was still excellent w/Shooting Star as the opening band. You know, Steve Walsh can't be replaced, but that doesn't mean I didn't enjoy anything the band did without him---

That's because John Elefante was a good enough vocalist to create new music with Kansas that was very marketable. "Fight Fire With Fire" is one of my favorite songs. On the other hand, neither Journey nor Foreigner have made any hits with the impersonators that they have hired. That is the big difference. Whether Journey will come up with anything marketable with their new singer remains to be seen. My guess is that he will just be another (good) Perry impersonator.

Whilst I enjoyed seeing Priest with Rob Halford on the Angel of Retribution tour I must say that Tim Owens completely smokes Halford vocally even bettering Rob on many of the orginal songs. This was especially evident in a live environment and is evidenced on the many live recordings available, with the exception of Live Insurrection from Halford which has been fixed up beyond recognition!

Whilst many bands have suffered sonically due to a lead singer replacement I don't believe that Journey will fall into this catagory as much as those whose sound is altered (often for the worse) due to the hiring of a completely different sounding frontman, Robin Mcauley in Survivor comes to mind.

finalfight wrote:Whilst I enjoyed seeing Priest with Rob Halford on the Angel of Retribution tour I must say that Tim Owens completely smokes Halford vocally even bettering Rob on many of the orginal songs. This was especially evident in a live environment and is evidenced on the many live recordings available, with the exception of Live Insurrection from Halford which has been fixed up beyond recognition!

The guy who sings in the Brazilian Priest tribute band, Hell Patrol, smokes both of them easily. Listen to the "Stand by for Exciter" at about 2:55.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYRFM5z0JFY

Their cover of "Hell Patrol" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xI3-Puy ... re=related