MR

...thoughts?

Thought he was startlingly agressive in the denials but then Rafael Palmeiro pointed his finger and lied at congress.

Clemens came out throwing bombs though.

I'd like to believe he is being forthright, but I have my doubts.

his face looked so angry most of the time that he looked like he was lying.. that man is ticked off MAD for sure..

Red13JoePa wrote:...thoughts?

Thought he was startlingly agressive in the denials but then Rafael Palmeiro pointed his finger and lied at congress.

Clemens came out throwing bombs though.

Clemens will be the next Barry Bonds. Look how big he looks even currently to what he was like in the early 90s...
thats what was said reagarding Big MAC and Bonds... plus he gets hurt a lot...Like Bonds, Big MAC etc.





Rick

Red13JoePa wrote:...thoughts?

Thought he was startlingly agressive in the denials but then Rafael Palmeiro pointed his finger and lied at congress.

Clemens came out throwing bombs though.

I think he's a fat pussy. No way in hell he declines to the point he had and then at 35 comes back and starts winning Cy Yound awards. His last 2 years with Boston were mediocre at best. He was 10-13 and 10-5 and was starting to look old. He then goes to Toronto and has 2 incredible years, winning 41 games in 2 years at the ages of 35 and 36. Conicidence? I think not. At least Pettite was honest. I can respect that.

I actually thought Clemens couldn't have looked more uncomfortable as Mike Wallace was reading from the Michell Report, about him being injected by his trainer. I thought it was interesting how CBS kept the camera focused on him, as Wallace read every word. The guy looked like he wanted to crawl under a rock. I can tell you this...I was a 14 year old kid, living 8 miles from Fenway Park, when Clemens came up to the majors from the Red Sox farm system. I remember sitting in Fenway Park, listening to Elton John's "Rocket Man", and being very excited to see this guy pitch, as he warmed up, before a game. I thought he was the greatest pitcher I had ever seen, and thought the Red Sox were NUTS to not re-sign him.

I personally think the guy is full of shit and simply not believeable. As a lifelong fan of the guy, it pains me to say that, but it doesn't look good for "The Rocket". At this point, I think it's very sad that this will probably be his "legacy". The one good thing that has come out of this (and it's THE ONLY good thing) is that I can stop listening to the Bonds' apologists play the race card, when it comes to this issue. Clemens is getting hammered (and rightfully so) every bit as much as Bonds has ever gotten hammered. I think the difference between the two guys is that Bonds has always been a scumbag of a guy, while Clemens has always been a likeable guy. Even with the likeability factor, Clemens is getting ZERO mercy, from the media! At the end of the day, they'll both be remembered for things other than their accomplishments on the baseball field!

I think the one thing were going to see as a result of this performance-enhancing era in baseball, is some guys who were borderline for the Hall of Fame (Jim Rice and Goose Gossage, this year) are probably going to get much more consideration for induction, because people are going to believe their accomplishments were realized through good old fashioned work!


John from Boston

I guess for now, I'll just have to remember Clemens as the guy who pitched and won 4 cys and an Mvp from 86-97.


My jury's out right now on anything post that.

People will question the bizzare Piazza affaire as being 'roid rage-induced.

Saint John wrote: His last 2 years with Boston were mediocre at best. He was 10-13 and 10-5 and was starting to look old.

Win-loss records are THE MOST MEANINGLESS stat, EVER, when it comes to pitchers! The reality is that the win-loss record is one of the very few stats that pitchers have ZERO control over! Although Clemens had a 10-13 record in his final season with the Red Sox, he had a very respectable 3.60 ERA and 257 strikeouts in only 242 innings! I can tell you as someone who watched that season, the Red Sox bullpen was HORRENDOUS, and blew MANY games for Clemens that season. That said, there is certainly ZERO question that the guy had a whole new level of motivation (and apparently "therapy"), when Duquette (the Red Sox GM, at the time) said Clemens was "in the twilight of his career". Unfortunately, I still think the guy is full of shit!


John from Boston

A good friend of mine is a police interrogator.

He told me to focus on Clemens' eyes.

Every time he denied something, his eyes turned down and to the left.

Doug told me that is the surest sign someone is lying.

Saint John wrote:

Red13JoePa wrote:...thoughts?

Thought he was startlingly agressive in the denials but then Rafael Palmeiro pointed his finger and lied at congress.

Clemens came out throwing bombs though.

I think he's a fat pussy. No way in hell he declines to the point he had and then at 35 comes back and starts winning Cy Yound awards. His last 2 years with Boston were mediocre at best. He was 10-13 and 10-5 and was starting to look old. He then goes to Toronto and has 2 incredible years, winning 41 games in 2 years at the ages of 35 and 36. Conicidence? I think not. At least Pettite was honest. I can respect that.

Check his ERAs, Ks, and Ks-per-9 during the so called "down years" when Duquette was trying to make him sound like Steve Carlton holding on.

Dude was throwing GAS in '96, lead the league in Ks. The next year, pre-alleged 'roids he won the Cy. I'll agree his body change from the time he was pitching at Texas as a junior to now is striking though.

Lets dispense with whats already been stated.

If Clemens had *one* leg to stand on, his lawyer would have slapped Mitchell with a libel lawsuit faster than a Mr Splitty to Mike Piazza's head.

The fact of the matter is that Clemens didn't have anything publically to say after the release of the report until several days after it's release.....and it was said through Clemens' lawyer. That SCREAMS guilty to me.

7 Wishes wrote:A good friend of mine is a police interrogator.

He told me to focus on Clemens' eyes.

Every time he denied something, his eyes turned down and to the left.

Doug told me that is the surest sign someone is lying.

Steve Perry does the same thing except he closes his eyes. He closed them during the BTM interview every time there was a point of contention or conflicting stories, and he closed them during the TBF interview right before the famous "I think there's a good chance we'll be on the road this summer" line. I don't this is a coincidence.

lights1961 wrote:Clemens will be the next Barry Bonds. Look how big he looks even currently to what he was like in the early 90s...


Rick

Actually, based on the interview I watched last night, I would say Roger was looking rather trim. The comparison to Bonds, from a physical standpoint just doesn't work. They are built entirely differently. Clemens has ALWAYS been a large man. He's 6'4" and weighed 220lbs when he came up with the Red Sox in 1984. Bonds was 175lbs soaking wet and was actually quite skinny, when he came up with the Pirates. There is no question that Roger was not as big when he came up with the Red Sox, as he was later in his career. That said, if you look at Clemens' physique and Bonds' physique, there really is no comparison. While Clemens did get bigger, he wasn't anywhere near musclebound. Also, Clemens' head didn't triple in size, like Bonds' head did! I can tell you most of the criticism he got in Boston, later in his career was that he looked like he was eating too many Oreos...not that he was spending too much time in the gym! The thing that grew the most on Roger, over his years in Boston, was his stomach! Bonds, on the other hand, became completely musclebound. The guys' forearms were bigger than the barrel of his bat! Even though I now believe both guys were injecting EVERYTHING they could get their hands on, from a physique standpoint, I didn't need a "smoking gun" to know Bonds was guilty! Nothing could have been more clear!


John from Boston

Saint John wrote:

7 Wishes wrote:A good friend of mine is a police interrogator.

He told me to focus on Clemens' eyes.

Every time he denied something, his eyes turned down and to the left.

Doug told me that is the surest sign someone is lying.

Steve Perry does the same thing except he closes his eyes. He closed them during the BTM interview every time there was a point of contention or conflicting stories, and he closed them during the TBF interview right before the famous "I think there's a good chance we'll be on the road this summer" line. I don't this is a coincidence.

Hmmm, never noticed that, daaaaaaamn just may have to pull those out and watch them again. I do vaguely remember that though on the TBF interview.

Clemens' thighs and butt are enormous.

A pitcher's wheelhouse.

But evidently a lot of these players weren't using 'roids ala Bonds and McGwire.

Like a Pettite or a Palmeiro or Knoblauch, clearly those guys weren't gaining jacked muscles like a Dykstra or a Bonds.

There had to be some other benefit (recovery time, etc) so we can't just say "Well Clemens is big, but it's a doughboy big not a Bonds big so he didn't ' roid."

have you ever noticed taht the baseball players that roid are fat but stout? the wrastlers are huge and muscles? i guess it depends on what your overall goal is.. looking great.. or being strong..

Deb wrote:

Saint John wrote:

7 Wishes wrote:A good friend of mine is a police interrogator.

He told me to focus on Clemens' eyes.

Every time he denied something, his eyes turned down and to the left.

Doug told me that is the surest sign someone is lying.

Steve Perry does the same thing except he closes his eyes. He closed them during the BTM interview every time there was a point of contention or conflicting stories, and he closed them during the TBF interview right before the famous "I think there's a good chance we'll be on the road this summer" line. I don't this is a coincidence.

Hmmm, never noticed that, daaaaaaamn just may have to pull those out and watch them again. I do vaguely remember that though on the TBF interview.

Here's one of them. He looks very uncomfortable right as he utters those famous words.
It's the last 5-10 seconds.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgnu69bRCtM

What're you shitting me, Juanno?

Butter wouldn't melt in perry's mouth.

Red13JoePa wrote:There had to be some other benefit (recovery time, etc) so we can't just say "Well Clemens is big, but it's a doughboy big not a Bonds big so he didn't ' roid."

I don't know if this comment was directed toward me, JoePa, because I'm the one who made the comment about Clemens' physique. If you read my additional comments, I made it VERY clear that I think Clemens is EVERY bit as guilty as Bonds is. I simply said that for me, I needed more of a "smoking gun" with Clemens than I needed with Bonds, because Clemens has never been a muscle bound guy! I have personally believed Bonds was juicin' long before the feds ever got involved with he and BALCO. I've been involved with sports long enough to know that guys simply don't put on the muscle that Bonds put on (and it was fairly quick, in his case) without steroids. No matter what ANYONE claims, it's simply not how bodies grow, naturally!


John from Boston

I'm just going to come out and admit it.

I'm far more willing to look for a reason to believe Clemens than Bonds because Barroid is such a jerkoff.

100% convinced he used, but he made some good arguments. (at least to the general public)

1. Clemens is dead on when he says steroids are a quick fix. They promote muscle growth while NOT at the same time promoting any growth to the connective tissues. As a result, once muscles grow too big, the connective tissue snaps. That's why guys do indeed flame out after steroids use. Ever see an old clip of a competitive weight lifter crumbling to the ground because something in him snapped? Steroids. (Of course what Clemens failed to point out was that HGH does indeed promote growth of the connective tissue and therefore a proper cocktail of both will lead to Ruthian results like Barry Bonds and he achieved. If you've seen body builders today, you notice their abdomen's are rounded out. It's because HGH also makes your internal organs grow. Anyone who's seen Clemens knows he's rock solid, but they can also see that stomach rounded out. Dude, HGH)
[note: I'm no doctor, but everything in the above is from a doctor acquaintance]

2. He won the Cy Young AFTER McNamee says he stopped giving him drugs.

3. Radomski ratted out McNamee. So now McNamee is talking to the Feds and looking for a deal. The way that works is the Feds will say you have a deal, contingent upon what you got. So, McNamee rats out Knoblauch. Yeah, what else. He mentions Andy Pettitte used HGH twice. Feds are still not convinced so he's facing losing his TOTAL immunity deal so he mentions Clemens. Again, not likely, but it's certainly a possibility. People will say the darnest things when facing jail time.

4. he asked where the proof of purchase is. This is the one thing that can "get him off." McNamee said Clemens supplied his own. Clemens asked for the person who supplied him to step forward and provide proof. So (again, I believe he used), if nobody steps forward with proof of purchase, why should we believe McNamee injected HGH instead of something else? The fact that he was right about Pettitte is not proof.

Uno_up wrote:2. He won the Cy Young AFTER McNamee says he stopped giving him drugs.

3. Radomski ratted out McNamee. So now McNamee is talking to the Feds and looking for a deal. The way that works is the Feds will say you have a deal, contingent upon what you got. So, McNamee rats out Knoblauch. Yeah, what else. He mentions Andy Pettitte used HGH twice. Feds are still not convinced so he's facing losing his TOTAL immunity deal so he mentions Clemens. Again, not likely, but it's certainly a possibility. People will say the darnest things when facing jail time.

4. he asked where the proof of purchase is. This is the one thing that can "get him off." McNamee said Clemens supplied his own. Clemens asked for the person who supplied him to step forward and provide proof. So (again, I believe he used), if nobody steps forward with proof of purchase, why should we believe McNamee injected HGH instead of something else? The fact that he was right about Pettitte is not proof.

A couple of points. The Cy Young Argument is not an issue. He won four of them (1986, 1987, 1991, and 1997)before even his trainer (or anyone else) accuses him of ever using steroids!

As for your point about McNamee. While I agree with you that it certainly doesn't automatically mean because he was correct about Pettitte means he's correct about Clemens...It certainly gives the guy's words credibility. It makes you wonder why in the world he would lie about one guy, while being honest about his best friend. It doesn't really make a lot of sense. I think the most interesting thing will be what Clemens says in front of Congress next week, when he's under oath. Perhaps the perjury charges facing Bonds right now will give him second thoughts about blatantly lying about his "vitamin cocktails". If anything, he should at least claim that he wasn't sure of the exact substance in the syringe that McNamee shot into his ass!


John from Boston

Enigma869 wrote:

Uno_up wrote:2. He won the Cy Young AFTER McNamee says he stopped giving him drugs.

3. Radomski ratted out McNamee. So now McNamee is talking to the Feds and looking for a deal. The way that works is the Feds will say you have a deal, contingent upon what you got. So, McNamee rats out Knoblauch. Yeah, what else. He mentions Andy Pettitte used HGH twice. Feds are still not convinced so he's facing losing his TOTAL immunity deal so he mentions Clemens. Again, not likely, but it's certainly a possibility. People will say the darnest things when facing jail time.

4. he asked where the proof of purchase is. This is the one thing that can "get him off." McNamee said Clemens supplied his own. Clemens asked for the person who supplied him to step forward and provide proof. So (again, I believe he used), if nobody steps forward with proof of purchase, why should we believe McNamee injected HGH instead of something else? The fact that he was right about Pettitte is not proof.

A couple of points. The Cy Young Argument is not an issue. He won four of them (1986, 1987, 1991, and 1997)before even his trainer (or anyone else) accuses him of ever using steroids!

As for your point about McNamee. While I agree with you that it certainly doesn't automatically mean because he was correct about Pettitte means he's correct about Clemens...It certainly gives the guy's words credibility. It makes you wonder why in the world he would lie about one guy, while being honest about his best friend. It doesn't really make a lot of sense. I think the most interesting thing will be what Clemens says in front of Congress next week, when he's under oath. Perhaps the perjury charges facing Bonds right now will give him second thoughts about blatantly lying about his "vitamin cocktails". If anything, he should at least claim that he wasn't sure of the exact substance in the syringe that McNamee shot into his ass!


John from Boston

Doesnt having an on-going lawsuit vs. McNamee "prevent" him from testifying in front of Congress?
Why file it now right after the invitation to talk to Congress?? If he uses that suit to protect himself when asked questions in Congress, that'll tell a lot!!!!!! Timing is ridiculously bad. It's not like the statute of limitations is running out and he had to file immediately. Very sketchy move there if he hides behind a pending court case. Suit could have waited until after Congress.

we're not talking about proof here....that can be saved for the tort lawsuit that Clemens finally (albeit, suspiciously behind the eight ball) brought...


The fact of the matter is that semantics in proof, get thrown out the window when public opinion is an issue. Think about it....who cares who gave clemens the stuff....it doesn't change the fact that his *entire* career since the mid-90s is one big fucking question mark.

That's the problem.

I can think of two very amazing baseball stars who were banned for life from this game....just on suspicion of cheating. Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose. Both players were thrust in situations or created situations around them (respectively) that gave reasonable doubt that their actions on the field were not genuine.

This is no different...in fact, it's worse....because Clemens' actions represent an overt/explicit attempt at cheating. In Pete Rose's case, no one can come out and say the guy's a cheater...because the possibility exists (and I would say it's very good posibility) that Rose bet on himself to win, each and every time....knowing just how competitive Pete Rose was. We can all agree that Joe Jackson's involvement was most likely associative and nothing more.

In the case of clemens, taking steroids (or illegally prescribed substances like lidocaine) represents an attempt at cheating!!!


Why isn't this fuckhole clemens thrown out of the sport on his ass, to protect the dignity of this game?!! Why isn't Bonds afforded the same treatment....Palmero? The list goes on.

Uno_up wrote:Doesnt having an on-going lawsuit vs. McNamee "prevent" him from testifying in front of Congress?
Why file it now right after the invitation to talk to Congress?? If he uses that suit to protect himself when asked questions in Congress, that'll tell a lot!!!!!! Timing is ridiculously bad. It's not like the statute of limitations is running out and he had to file immediately. Very sketchy move there if he hides behind a pending court case. Suit could have waited until after Congress.

VERY good point. I don't know if the answer to this....but if it does....it makes ALOT of sense.

Again, if he were truly without wrong here, he would have been suing the very second this report was in release.

strangegrey wrote:we're not talking about proof here....that can be saved for the tort lawsuit that Clemens finally (albeit, suspiciously behind the eight ball) brought...


The fact of the matter is that semantics in proof, get thrown out the window when public opinion is an issue. Think about it....who cares who gave clemens the stuff....it doesn't change the fact that his *entire* career since the mid-90s is one big fucking question mark.

That's the problem.

I can think of two very amazing baseball stars who were banned for life from this game....just on suspicion of cheating. Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose. Both players were thrust in situations or created situations around them (respectively) that gave reasonable doubt that their actions on the field were not genuine.

This is no different...in fact, it's worse....because Clemens' actions represent an overt/explicit attempt at cheating. In Pete Rose's case, no one can come out and say the guy's a cheater...because the possibility exists (and I would say it's very good posibility) that Rose bet on himself to win, each and every time....knowing just how competitive Pete Rose was. We can all agree that Joe Jackson's involvement was most likely associative and nothing more.

In the case of clemens, taking steroids (or illegally prescribed substances like lidocaine) represents an attempt at cheating!!!


Why isn't this fuckhole clemens thrown out of the sport on his ass, to protect the dignity of this game?!! Why isn't Bonds afforded the same treatment....Palmero? The list goes on.

He's not thrown out along with bonds, sosa, piazza, Mcguire etc. because "baseball" is trying to protect the cash cow....the number of steroid users in baseball would be staggering, and the people who would be thrown out would be many of the better players ,if they did it correctly.

Ok, couple of FACTS from the paramedic. Clemens claims that his trainer injected him in the buttocks with Lidocaine. Lidocaine is a numbing agent along the lines of Novacaine. It is also useful in the care and treatment of cardiac patients.

That said, why would Clemens need his trainer to numb his ass cheek? If the guy was having a heart problem that required him to receive Lidocaine, he would have been in a hospital getting it through an IV in his arm. Still not given intra ass cheek.

So for the record the guy is bold faced lying to everyone about what medicines he supposedly got stuck in his ass.

Clemens is either telling the truth or, he is betting everything that he won't get caught. Dude is all in on this. He has moved all his chops to the middle of the table.

It's been a month since the Mitchell report came out, and he waits that long to tell his story? I like how he went to CBS 60 Minutes, and hand picked the interviewer. Wallace is a friend of Clemens and a huge Yankee fan. I like how the interview took well over 2 hours, yet we only saw 20 minutes.

Clemens had better be careful. McNamee, the trainer has a graduate degree(Masters), in sports medicine and he wouldn't lie under oath. When the Feds come knockin, they want answers. I am pretty confident that McNamee told the truth, and I would be surprised if he doesn't file a defamation lawsuit.

Clemens is all in, using his 25 yr career as collateral.

He now has to go to Congress. He better remember, that, he shouldn't use these tactics: "Let's talk about the future not the past", "I no speak English" and no finger wagging, claiming "I never used steroids, period."

Rocket is going to implode.

You're 100% correct here Dean in that he's forehead deep into this now. Really though do you think it matters to him. He's made more money than probably 3/4 of us here could ever dream to have. He had the dream job so who gives a shit if he gets a bronze dome of his likeness slapped in some museum somewhere. The ultimate goal of any job is to retire comfortably. I believe he is pretty fucking comfortable monetarily speaking.

Rockindeano wrote:He now has to go to Congress. He better remember, that, he shouldn't use these tactics: "Let's talk about the future not the past", "I no speak English" and no finger wagging, claiming "I never used steroids, period."

Rocket is going to implode.

I think he filed this lawsuit so he can sit before congress and say, "I'd love to answer that question, but I have a pending lawsuit......blah, blah, blah..." An escape clause out of pleading the 5th or purgering himself.