MR

Every tab site I've looked at only has bass tabs for the Dirty Dozen, basically... and most are fairly easy. I'm ready to conquer more.

I'd love to tackle some bass parts for the lesser-known songs, such as "Once You Love Somebody," "Of a Lifetime," "One More," "Edge of The Blade," and so on... plus the entire Escape album.

Does anyone know of any site that has these type of Journey songs tabbed out, or is anyone knowledgeable enough to quick-tab maybe a lick or two for me?

MANY THANKS in advance.

Anyone?

Man, I wish I could figure out stuff by ear.

Could someone at least tell me to give up, suck it up, and learn how to play by ear?

Learn how to read music and get some of the Japanese score books which are note-for-note transcriptions of all the instruments. Playing by ear is one thing, but learning to read will open up lots for you. It's one of the ways I learned early on - I bought songbooks for albums (arr. for piano/vocal/gtr) and played bass along with albums and then figured out what wasn't written.

StyxCollector wrote:Learn how to read music and get some of the Japanese score books which are note-for-note transcriptions of all the instruments. Playing by ear is one thing, but learning to read will open up lots for you. It's one of the ways I learned early on - I bought songbooks for albums (arr. for piano/vocal/gtr) and played bass along with albums and then figured out what wasn't written.

I can read sheet music and tabs both. Do these songbooks have more than just the hit singles? That's all the online tab sites seem to have.

for crying out loud man,, DONT take styxdudes advice!! .. reading music is for real musicians that play flutes and fiddles.. uh.. VIOLINS... .. learn your 5 penatonic scales.. put on the song you want to learn.. find the key,, and play by ear..

remember this.. if its blues.. its generally I-IV-V.. use the "I" to solo in on the 3rd penatonic scale.. the one everyone knows.. if its a minor key.. use the same..but you can use 3 notes per string.. if its a major chord and key.. use the major scale or go 3 frets (towards the headstock) to perform the 3rd scale in the penatonic for the key.. like Cmaj=Am..... Gmaj=Em...

im kidding about styxdudes advice.. if you can learn to read then the world is your oyster.. but if you learn to hear it by ear.. the girls will be.. whats more important?

ProgRocker53 wrote:I can read sheet music and tabs both. Do these songbooks have more than just the hit singles? That's all the online tab sites seem to have.

Some do, others are just singles. Best thing to do (to be honest) is to poke around eBay for the old songbooks and get 'em pretty cheaply. While not exact transcriptions, they'll give you the basics.

There are tab sites like bassmasta, but I have a hard time reading tab lol I wind up doing my own transcriptions 9 times out of 10 onto music staff paper or in a program like Sibelius.

Also, don't go by what tab sites say since they'll tell you where to play notes. Play it where it feels comforable for you (for example, the middle G on a bass can be played at 5th fret on the D string, open G string, 10th fret on the A, or 15th fret on the E).

To be honest, there's not much that Ross does that's insanely challenging. Of the more modern stuff, "Dead or Alive" is about as challenging as it gets. The early stuff is more jazzy than anything else.

larryfromnextdoor wrote:im kidding about styxdudes advice.. if you can learn to read then the world is your oyster.. but if you learn to hear it by ear.. the girls will be.. whats more important?

Actually it's a bit of both. You can be a good reader but a poor listener, and I'd say to truly be successful overall you need both. I could never play jazz if I had just read off the page. Same way for rock - you have to be able to trust your ears, too.

Also remember how tough it is to sightread for guitar/bass. So many different places to play the same note unless you know exactly how the song goes. I'll work on a chord chart for Of a Lifetime for ya ProgRocker, hopefully sometime in the next few days. Hopefully that'll get you going in the right direction. I'm in the process of learning songs for two bands and school's heatin up so hopefully I'll get it done by the weekend.

Ehwmatt wrote:Also remember how tough it is to sightread for guitar/bass.

Sightreading is easy unless it's tab. Notes give you the ability to make the choice where to play it, whereas tab is trying to force you to do it one way.

I've done many pit bands for musicals where I sightread the score the night before the first show. I guess I'm lucky that way. The only way to get good at sightreading is to practice doing it.

larryfromnextdoor wrote:for crying out loud man,, DONT take styxdudes advice!! .. reading music is for real musicians that play flutes and fiddles.. uh.. VIOLINS... .. learn your 5 penatonic scales.. put on the song you want to learn.. find the key,, and play by ear..

Gotta agree with Larry here. I have a degree in theory, my father is a composer, my mother was a concert singer, and my step-mother an international opera star. I became so obsessed with the technical side of things that I lost touch with my creative side. As a result a vast majority of my work is overly structured...as if it's a song in search of a melody. Larry here is the epitome of a true musician...he learned his craft from the heart. And he's a fucking musical genius, like a lot of the people on this board.

StyxCollector wrote:

Ehwmatt wrote:Also remember how tough it is to sightread for guitar/bass.

Sightreading is easy unless it's tab. Notes give you the ability to make the choice where to play it, whereas tab is trying to force you to do it one way.

I've done many pit bands for musicals where I sightread the score the night before the first show. I guess I'm lucky that way. The only way to get good at sightreading is to practice doing it.

Sure wish I had that ability. Should have started on piano or something instead of guitar. I can sightread at a rudimentary ability, certainly not like you described. Unfortunately, I (like many guitarists) have just never really been forced to learn.

In my old band, I only wrote two songs out of the eleven originals or so we had.

For the first song, I vocalized the kind of guitar part I wanted our axeman to play, he picked up something similar that I actually liked a little better. I put a thumping line under his riff, the drums came naturally and the singer dug the melody. Boom, a song written in five minutes, without anybody using the terms "progression" or "key" or "Dsus4#" or anything like that.

For the second song, I decided to use theory and toiled over my keyboard for like three hours experimenting with progressions. I gave the guitarist my progression and we played it together... the vocalist sang his lines over top.... and they were digging it for awhile... but... the whole thing just kinda went flat after the first verse. We tried using similar progressions for a chorus/bridge but couldn't use theory beyond making cool-sounding riffs. It sucked, and we proceeded to use a similar method as the first song for the rest of our work.

Both approaches are valid. I've had success writing songs that started as technical, and others that came out of a riff or jamming and most of it was written in 5 - 10 minutes. I do know that when I labor over something, it generally comes out mediocre.

I generally compose on bass - at least that's where most of it starts - so I'm odd that way. When writing my jazz stuff, sometimes I'll collaborate. I'm very good at structure and arrangement, and I generally have horn players assist with melody if I can't come up with one. Having writing partners you work well with is a good checks and balance system - someone who can call bullshit on you. I'm not a fan of soulless music which do silly things like have odd meters or odd key signatures "just because". That's stupid.

Believe me, I know the downside of "thinking too much" when you play. Heck, I did a Rush tribute band for five years (I did keys and bass; we had a singer do that part of Geddy) lol Now you want a challenge, go do that

Some complex music is good though. Right now I'm arranging a big band album and I'm even taking some songs you may know and turning them into big band versions (stuff like "La Villa Strangiato" by Rush, and both "Red" and "Vrooom" from King Crimson, for example). I'll be recording it over the next 6 - 8 months so I'll see how things turn out. Some of it is original stuff, too.

StyxCollector wrote:Both approaches are valid. I've had success writing songs that started as technical, and others that came out of a riff or jamming and most of it was written in 5 - 10 minutes. I do know that when I labor over something, it generally comes out mediocre.

I generally compose on bass - at least that's where most of it starts - so I'm odd that way. When writing my jazz stuff, sometimes I'll collaborate. I'm very good at structure and arrangement, and I generally have horn players assist with melody if I can't come up with one. Having writing partners you work well with is a good checks and balance system - someone who can call bullshit on you. I'm not a fan of soulless music which do silly things like have odd meters or odd key signatures "just because". That's stupid.

Believe me, I know the downside of "thinking too much" when you play. Heck, I did a Rush tribute band for five years (I did keys and bass; we had a singer do that part of Geddy) lol Now you want a challenge, go do that

Some complex music is good though. Right now I'm arranging a big band album and I'm even taking some songs you may know and turning them into big band versions (stuff like "La Villa Strangiato" by Rush, and both "Red" and "Vrooom" from King Crimson, for example). I'll be recording it over the next 6 - 8 months so I'll see how things turn out. Some of it is original stuff, too.

Sounds pretty interesting and hard to imagine... keep me posted.

Ehwmatt wrote:Sure wish I had that ability. Should have started on piano or something instead of guitar. I can sightread at a rudimentary ability, certainly not like you described. Unfortunately, I (like many guitarists) have just never really been forced to learn.

I started on bass in 3rd grade, then picked up trombone two years later. I always had to read music. I was playing with musicians 10+ years my senior after 6 - 8 months. I just had a natural instinct for it I guess. Over the years I picked up rudimentary guitar and taught myself how to play keyboard/piano. I've never had a "formal" music lesson other than some basics in public school.

I guess I just absorbed the theory well through reading and playing. The first stuff I ever attempted to arrange on a bigger scale was a friend's musical back in 1995.

The only instrument where practical theory can really impact the songwriting process is with the piano. Chord voicing, counterpoint, harmonic structure..all elements of a sound theory background. If you look at most of the best keyboardist/pianist songwriters out there...Bruce Hornsby, Jordan Rudess, Geoffrey Downes...these guys all went to conservatories. On the other hand, look at Schon, Page, and Edward...see my point?

An exception to the classically trained guitarist rule would be Tom Scholz - but then look at his body of work compared to the aforementioned slingers. There is no comparison. Scholz is a technical genius, but he's not half the songwriter those guys are.

Ehwmatt wrote:

StyxCollector wrote:Both approaches are valid. I've had success writing songs that started as technical, and others that came out of a riff or jamming and most of it was written in 5 - 10 minutes. I do know that when I labor over something, it generally comes out mediocre.

I generally compose on bass - at least that's where most of it starts - so I'm odd that way. When writing my jazz stuff, sometimes I'll collaborate. I'm very good at structure and arrangement, and I generally have horn players assist with melody if I can't come up with one. Having writing partners you work well with is a good checks and balance system - someone who can call bullshit on you. I'm not a fan of soulless music which do silly things like have odd meters or odd key signatures "just because". That's stupid.

Believe me, I know the downside of "thinking too much" when you play. Heck, I did a Rush tribute band for five years (I did keys and bass; we had a singer do that part of Geddy) lol Now you want a challenge, go do that

Some complex music is good though. Right now I'm arranging a big band album and I'm even taking some songs you may know and turning them into big band versions (stuff like "La Villa Strangiato" by Rush, and both "Red" and "Vrooom" from King Crimson, for example). I'll be recording it over the next 6 - 8 months so I'll see how things turn out. Some of it is original stuff, too.

Sounds pretty interesting and hard to imagine... keep me posted.

Yeah definitely! Can't wait to hear it.

I find it interesting that you compose most things from the bass up... isn't that what Perry did for alot of his songs?

The drummer from my old band just joined my new one and we're writing some originals on Monday with our singer/guitarists. I'm really hoping these guys will suck up their egos and just let me and the drummer lay down a foundation for them to work over top of. I've got a zillion basslines that sound wonderful when it's just me and my drummer but suck if I try to plug them into one of my guitarists' original riffs. The guitarists are leaps and bounds more talented than I am, so maybe them working over top of my line will be easier than me trying to fit into what they're playing. Haha, if everything fails, I just ask them what the chords are and do basic blues/jazz walks. I'd like to branch out beyond that though.

These days I'm really trying to channel a bass style similar to that of Chris Wolstenholme from the band Muse. He's got a thick, churning lead bass style that carries the song and provides guitar-style riffs. Both of my guitarists like playing lead more than rhythm, so I have a feeling if I adapt that kind of style, they'd have more room to do what they like. I also get inspiration from a lot of Geddy's lines, and Randy Jackson's style on Raised on Radio.

Haha sometimes when blues/jazz walks and my improvisation don't help the song all, I end up playing VERY Styx-ish lines. I love Styx but some of their lines make Ross Valory look like Victor Wooten.

7 Wishes wrote:The only instrument where practical theory can really impact the songwriting process is with the piano. Chord voicing, counterpoint, harmonic structure..all elements of a sound theory background. If you look at most of the best keyboardist/pianist songwriters out there...Bruce Hornsby, Jordan Rudess, Geoffrey Downes...these guys all went to conservatories. On the other hand, look at Schon, Page, and Edward...see my point?

An exception to the classically trained guitarist rule would be Tom Scholz - but then look at his body of work compared to the aforementioned slingers. There is no comparison. Scholz is a technical genius, but he's not half the songwriter those guys are.

Chord voicing is just as important on guitar, too. Bass, not so much

There's another aspect you're not saying: playing in a band - not sitting jerking off on your instrument in your bedroom - is what makes someone better. It's interaction. You can be the best technician, but if you can't play in context of a band (be it jazz or rock), you're fucked.

StyxCollector wrote:

7 Wishes wrote:The only instrument where practical theory can really impact the songwriting process is with the piano. Chord voicing, counterpoint, harmonic structure..all elements of a sound theory background. If you look at most of the best keyboardist/pianist songwriters out there...Bruce Hornsby, Jordan Rudess, Geoffrey Downes...these guys all went to conservatories. On the other hand, look at Schon, Page, and Edward...see my point?

An exception to the classically trained guitarist rule would be Tom Scholz - but then look at his body of work compared to the aforementioned slingers. There is no comparison. Scholz is a technical genius, but he's not half the songwriter those guys are.

Chord voicing is just as important on guitar, too. Bass, not so much

There's another aspect you're not saying: playing in a band - not sitting jerking off on your instrument in your bedroom - is what makes someone better. It's interaction. You can be the best technician, but if you can't play in context of a band (be it jazz or rock), you're fucked.

Good thing I can play in band context rather well for my experience level.

I eavesdropped on a local musicians' forum one day and there was a thread called "Bassists Needed." Someone said "I heard (ProgRocker53) is a solid bassist, give him a call." Yet another poster said "Are you serious? (ProgRocker53) knows his music, but is very limited in both skill and experience." (Which is true. ) A third guy chipped in saying "Yeah, (ProgRocker53) isn't exactly Flea, but he can hold down a good groove and sounds alright in the mix. Even though he's only been playing for a year or so, he's already been in two bands. That's a huge plus. My band auditioned a bassist who could outplay everybody else by far, but sounded horrible when together with the rest of us. So we had to go with a guy that was kinda like (ProgRocker53) in alot of ways."

The band seeking bassists did indeed contact me, but I had to turn 'em down.... Sorry, but I really don't want to play grunge.

ProgRocker53 wrote:

Ehwmatt wrote:Sounds pretty interesting and hard to imagine... keep me posted.

Yeah definitely! Can't wait to hear it.

Meh. It's been a project I've put on the backburner for awhile, but it's heating up. I have the arrangements done in my head. There's not a lot of King Crimson for big band out there LOL The hardest part is matching parts to which horn. I'm trying to do a traditional 5-5-4 or 5-5-5 horn section.

ProgRocker53 wrote:I find it interesting that you compose most things from the bass up... isn't that what Perry did for alot of his songs?

It was for some songs, I think. Because bass is my main instrument, it's just the way I think. I always think structure and such, or sometimes riffs. Whatever works. I think doing it on bass, and then futzing with piano for chord structures is easier. You're initially not encumbered with worrying about voicings - just the basics.

ProgRocker53 wrote:The drummer from my old band just joined my new one and we're writing some originals on Monday with our singer/guitarists. I'm really hoping these guys will suck up their egos and just let me and the drummer lay down a foundation for them to work over top of. I've got a zillion basslines that sound wonderful when it's just me and my drummer but suck if I try to plug them into one of my guitarists' original riffs. The guitarists are leaps and bounds more talented than I am, so maybe them working over top of my line will be easier than me trying to fit into what they're playing. Haha, if everything fails, I just ask them what the chords are and do basic blues/jazz walks. I'd like to branch out beyond that though.

The best thing you can do as a bass player is play with other rhythm section members who you are comfortable with. I hate shitty drummers lol I'll take a guy with a small kit who keeps good time over Mr. Neil Peart wannabe who can't play for shit. I've been lucky in the bands I've been in, but I've also played gigs with some drummers you want to kill because they can't even do 4 on the floor.

ProgRocker53 wrote:These days I'm really trying to channel a bass style similar to that of Chris Wolstenholme from the band Muse. He's got a thick, churning lead bass style that carries the song and provides guitar-style riffs. Both of my guitarists like playing lead more than rhythm, so I have a feeling if I adapt that kind of style, they'd have more room to do what they like. I also get inspiration from a lot of Geddy's lines, and Randy Jackson's style on Raised on Radio.

Haha sometimes when blues/jazz walks and my improvisation don't help the song all, I end up playing VERY Styx-ish lines. I love Styx but some of their lines make Ross Valory look like Victor Wooten.

I cut my teeth on that Styx stuff, and if you notice up to about 1976 it's more busy and interesting. From Grand Illusion on, it's much more basic. But it works and servers the song. Chuck was one of my early influences and I have nothing but respect for him. Same for Ross - he's not going to win any best bass player awards, but what he does is right for Journey. And I treat those first few albums which were more prog WAY different than the stuff from 77 or so on.

Quick question: how many bassists and drummers does it take to screw in a light bulb?

Twelve. Eleven to turn the ladder and one to hold the bulb in place.

How many lead singers does it take to screw in a light bulb?

One. All he has to do is stand there because the world revolves around him.


I agree with you on the interaction component...quite true if you're with talented people BUT you have to be on the same page. My issue has always been getting involved with guys who had different agendas - getting chicks, doing covers, sitting in dank clubs playing obscure 16-bar blues from the 50's...you know what I mean. I'm 37 and after 21 years making music I have yet to find my ideal writing partner. Now, I am an insolent asshole a lot of the time, but I have always been flexible...willing to mold my own direction around the goals and instincts of my band mates.

The last show I played, back in 2001, my guitarist (notice I say "my" guitarist...you see the problem, LOL) showed up x'ed out, on heroin, and drunk. He tried to play the opening riff to "Ain't Talkin' 'Bout Love" three times...stopping and starting from the start all three times, to the delight of me and the bassist and drummer...fell backwards into a couple of Marshall half stacks, into the drum riser, and all over the mixing board.

ProgRocker53 wrote:Good thing I can play in band context rather well for my experience level.

I eavesdropped on a local musicians' forum one day and there was a thread called "Bassists Needed." Someone said "I heard (ProgRocker53) is a solid bassist, give him a call." Yet another poster said "Are you serious? (ProgRocker53) knows his music, but is very limited in both skill and experience." (Which is true. ) A third guy chipped in saying "Yeah, (ProgRocker53) isn't exactly Flea, but he can hold down a good groove and sounds alright in the mix. Even though he's only been playing for a year or so, he's already been in two bands. That's a huge plus. My band auditioned a bassist who could outplay everybody else by far, but sounded horrible when together with the rest of us. So we had to go with a guy that was kinda like (ProgRocker53) in alot of ways."

The band seeking bassists did indeed contact me, but I had to turn 'em down.... Sorry, but I really don't want to play grunge.

Look, I'm not Flea, Stanley, or Victor. I don't slap, etc. (Funny that I do RUsh, but that's a whole different deal.) I've always strived to be a bass player, not a soloist. This doesn't mean I don't have good technique or can't play fast, but you know what I mean. I've beaten others in auditions going back to high school by being solid, not Mr. Flashy. I've also lost positions that way, too. It works both ways. It depends what people are looking for.

I always know this to be true: there will always be people better than me at what I do. I'm not some egotistical jackass who thinks he's the bee's knees.

What's funny is I get more attention by doing what I do trying to just not be out front than if I try to be out front.

I cut my teeth on that Styx stuff, and if you notice up to about 1976 it's more busy and interesting. From Grand Illusion on, it's much more basic. But it works and servers the song. Chuck was one of my early influences and I have nothing but respect for him. Same for Ross - he's not going to win any best bass player awards, but what he does is right for Journey. And I treat those first few albums which were more prog WAY different than the stuff from 77 or so on.

Yeah, I've noticed that in both bands, that the Prog era has way more "adventurous" lines but the bigger hits have tamer lines. That's got to say something, I'm sure.

I've cut my teeth so far on alot of the Melodic Rock giants. First thing I did when I got my bass was plug in and grind out some Van Halen, Journey, Styx, Toto, and Loverboy basslines. I've got to attribute what little success I have so far to keeping it simple for my first few months and not trying to outplay myself. It's fun and easy to pop around on basic rhythms and lines. I made a mistake early on in the process of tackling Rush and some GNR, and that stuff was waaaaaaaay over my head and not fun to even try. I revisited Rush recently and I found it come a little easier, since I've developed quicker fingers and more of an "instinct" when it comes to playing. I still haven't learned a full Rush song but it's less frustrating now that I have experience.

I think my music will take off if I get together with guys with similar favorite bands and playing styles as mine. I haven't had the privelege of that just yet, but I'm sure the day will come soon. However, there aren't many 17-23 year olds around here that are into playing Toto.

I'm doing a covers project right now which isn't the most interesting stuff bass-wise, but it's fun. We have a great singer. Like the RUsh band, I'm also doing bass and keys. "Don't Stop Believin'" is fun playing bass and triggering keys via foot - I feel like I'm doing Rush again

Some people would get to a certain spot in their playing lives where they feel this stuff is beneath them. That bothers me. I may not be in love with every tune we do, but that's normal.

Heck, I'd love to do a Joe Jackson tribute band. Graham Maby is an AMAZING bass player. But that's one I refuse to do keys in.

StyxCollector wrote:

ProgRocker53 wrote:Good thing I can play in band context rather well for my experience level.

I eavesdropped on a local musicians' forum one day and there was a thread called "Bassists Needed." Someone said "I heard (ProgRocker53) is a solid bassist, give him a call." Yet another poster said "Are you serious? (ProgRocker53) knows his music, but is very limited in both skill and experience." (Which is true. ) A third guy chipped in saying "Yeah, (ProgRocker53) isn't exactly Flea, but he can hold down a good groove and sounds alright in the mix. Even though he's only been playing for a year or so, he's already been in two bands. That's a huge plus. My band auditioned a bassist who could outplay everybody else by far, but sounded horrible when together with the rest of us. So we had to go with a guy that was kinda like (ProgRocker53) in alot of ways."

The band seeking bassists did indeed contact me, but I had to turn 'em down.... Sorry, but I really don't want to play grunge.

Look, I'm not Flea, Stanley, or Victor. I don't slap, etc. (Funny that I do RUsh, but that's a whole different deal.) I've always strived to be a bass player, not a soloist. This doesn't mean I don't have good technique or can't play fast, but you know what I mean. I've beaten others in auditions going back to high school by being solid, not Mr. Flashy. I've also lost positions that way, too. It works both ways. It depends what people are looking for.

I always know this to be true: there will always be people better than me at what I do. I'm not some egotistical jackass who thinks he's the bee's knees.

What's funny is I get more attention by doing what I do trying to just not be out front than if I try to be out front.

When I auditioned for my first band I was scared shitless. The band auditioned me and two other guys all at once. I only had three months' experience and sat back in fear as I watched the first guy play some intense slap'n'pop groove. However, he couldn't read tabs, didn't know ANY theory, or play anything different than the kind of line he was doing.

The second guy (I volunteered to go last haha) just kinda stood there and drop-D'd it, doing some Metallica-sounding riff over and over again. Naturally, it didn't fit into anything the band wanted to play, and the guy was more interested in seeing how fast his fingers could move than seeing if he could play some music.

When I went, the guys asked me.... Who are your influences? I told them something like.... Ross Valory, Michael Anthony, Mike Porcaro, David Hungate, Chuck Panozzo, Ricky Phillips, Colin Edwin. The guitarist laughed and said something like "So a guy with a chick's name, a Puerto Rican dude, a guy that sounds like he should be a mafioso, and two firsty-firsty names? HAHAHAHAHHAHA.... this song's a blues boogie in D, here we go!"

I boogied well enough to win their hearts. I learned "Jumpin' Jack Flash" and "Sunshine Of Your Love" both in two minutes, which neither of the other two guys (with much more experience than I) could do.

I got the job ten minutes later... haha.

7 Wishes wrote:[ he's a musical genius, like a lot of the people on this board.

... thats what they say when i play BTO's Taking Care of Business for the bajillinth time down the alley at the hotel bar next to the trailor park where the hookers stay.. classy place..