MR

Now, I've seen a few posts here & there about how Deen isn't all that great a drummer, how he was only picked cuz he & Neal are friends, etc. Yeah, they're friends...but music isn't "The Buddy Club". if you can't play, you can't play and no amount of friendship is going to change that.

That said, give a listen to "Dragon's Kiss" by Marty Friedman or "Maximum Security" by Tony McAlpine or "Convergence" by James Murphy or "Infra-Blue" by Joey Taffola or "Reign Of Terror" by Wild Dogs...THEN get back to me on Deen's playing ability. The dude is a freaking monster drummer.

Journey was a new animal for him, given. But comparing him to Steve Smith is like comparing Rod Morgenstein to Phil Collins...both are smoking & could play each others parts...but they both have their own styles.

He's a good drummer!
I wonder why they didn't move him up to be the singer of Journey or if they atleast tried. He has a great voice!

jwarr wrote:He's a good drummer!
I wonder why they didn't move him up to be the singer of Journey or if they atleast tried. He has a great voice!

If I remember right, he's not interested in being a frontman. I like his voice, & love watching him in concert, he just seems to absolutely love what he does.

Someone posted a pic here of him a while ago singing out front & not behind the drums.

jwarr wrote:He's a good drummer!
I wonder why they didn't move him up to be the singer of Journey or if they atleast tried. He has a great voice!

He's been quoted as saying he doesn't want to. He is not comfortable being out from behind his drumset. He is more than capable of drumming Journey songs. I think he's a valuable asset to the team. Multi-talented for sure. How many times did he bail out SA? And on top of that, an all around likeable and extremely friendly guy to say the least.

Pelata wrote:Now, I've seen a few posts here & there about how Deen isn't all that great a drummer, how he was only picked cuz he & Neal are friends, etc. Yeah, they're friends...but music isn't "The Buddy Club". if you can't play, you can't play and no amount of friendship is going to change that.

You're taking it to an extreme. I never said he couldn't play drums. He can play Hard rock or Metal very well, I'm sure. He sounded good on the Hardline album (I own it). Sounded great on the sample tracks I heard of Soul Sirkus too, but Journey isn't Hardline and it isn't Soul Sirkus.

I said he's not the best choice out there for Journey. He's not versatile enough to adapt to Neal and Jon's music. He wasn't even the best choice for Bad English. Go and listen to those Bad English albums and the very same limitations show through. He does a good job when he's aping Smitty's chops on the GH's and that's where "the buddy club" enters into things. Neal knew he was going to be touring more than recording. He doesn't want drama. He wants an ego-less "buddy" he can get along with out there. Go listen to every Journey track originated with Deen on the kit and you hear a one trick power pony.

I'm sure he'd tear it up playing for the likes of Ozzy or AC/DC or Def Leppard. Journey is a very different animal and he does not rise to the sophistication necessary to mesh with the band on new material.

Who should Journey have asked instead of Deen?

Pelata wrote:Who should Journey have asked instead of Deen?

Just because I can't name a famous guy you'd recognize doesn't mean there isn't someone more qualified than Deen on Journey's style of music. I'm sure there's tons of studio session jazz fusion drummers we've never heard of who can originate the sophisticated subtleties that mesh with Neal and Jon's collaborative artistry in ways Deen can't.

STORY_TELLER wrote:

Pelata wrote:Who should Journey have asked instead of Deen?

Just because I can't name a famous guy you'd recognize doesn't mean there isn't someone more qualified than Deen on Journey's style of music. I'm sure there's tons of studio session jazz fusion drummers we've never heard of who can originate the sophisticated subtleties that mesh with Neal and Jon's collaborative artistry in ways Deen can't.

That's some silly shit my friend. But, to each his own, as they say.

;^)

STORY_TELLER wrote:

Pelata wrote:Now, I've seen a few posts here & there about how Deen isn't all that great a drummer, how he was only picked cuz he & Neal are friends, etc. Yeah, they're friends...but music isn't "The Buddy Club". if you can't play, you can't play and no amount of friendship is going to change that.

You're taking it to an extreme. I never said he couldn't play drums. He can play Hard rock or Metal very well, I'm sure. He sounded good on the Hardline album (I own it). Sounded great on the sample tracks I heard of Soul Sirkus too, but Journey isn't Hardline and it isn't Soul Sirkus.

I said he's not the best choice out there for Journey. He's not versatile enough to adapt to Neal and Jon's music. He wasn't even the best choice for Bad English. Go and listen to those Bad English albums and the very same limitations show through. He does a good job when he's aping Smitty's chops on the GH's and that's where "the buddy club" enters into things. Neal knew he was going to be touring more than recording. He doesn't want drama. He wants an ego-less "buddy" he can get along with out there. Go listen to every Journey track originated with Deen on the kit and you hear a one trick power pony.

I'm sure he'd tear it up playing for the likes of Ozzy or AC/DC or Def Leppard. Journey is a very different animal and he does not rise to the sophistication necessary to mesh with the band on new material.

Story teller, are you a drummer? Just asking because you seem pretty passionate about the subject. I'm a guitarist but admittedly not that well-schooled in drums, I'm just curious where all the sophisticated nuance you speak of is found in the drumming of most post-Rollie era Journey? I'm just having a hard time thinking of instances, the music is great, but I don't hear it owing much to jazz, fusion, or anything else the guys used to do. Enlighten me if you can.

For years now, the music of Journey has been straight-ahead pop/rock. The only way that "jazz/fusion" relates to this band now is that their former drummer has chosen to focus on that genre in his post-Journey career.

;^)

johnroxx wrote:For years now, the music of Journey has been straight-ahead pop/rock. The only way that "jazz/fusion" relates to this band now is that their former drummer has chosen to focus on that genre in his post-Journey career.

;^)

Yea, TBH, the way I see it is that there are FAR FAR lesser drummers out there than Deen that would do this gig well.

Ehwmatt wrote:

johnroxx wrote:For years now, the music of Journey has been straight-ahead pop/rock. The only way that "jazz/fusion" relates to this band now is that their former drummer has chosen to focus on that genre in his post-Journey career.

;^)

Yea, TBH, the way I see it is that there are FAR FAR lesser drummers out there than Deen that would do this gig well.

No doubt. Given Deen's combination of drumming and vocal talent, Journey definitely has the right man for the job, IMHO. Basically, it's a "buy-one-get-one-free" deal for the band.

;^)

Steve Smith did add little nuances here & there that standard Rock drummers may not have (like in the verse to "Don't Stop Believing")...but Deen is certainly not "standard" by any means either...

Deen is a great addition to the band, sings, drums ,adds the high part layers to the songs,couldn't say enough about this guys talent.

Ehwmatt wrote:

STORY_TELLER wrote:

Pelata wrote:Now, I've seen a few posts here & there about how Deen isn't all that great a drummer, how he was only picked cuz he & Neal are friends, etc. Yeah, they're friends...but music isn't "The Buddy Club". if you can't play, you can't play and no amount of friendship is going to change that.

You're taking it to an extreme. I never said he couldn't play drums. He can play Hard rock or Metal very well, I'm sure. He sounded good on the Hardline album (I own it). Sounded great on the sample tracks I heard of Soul Sirkus too, but Journey isn't Hardline and it isn't Soul Sirkus.

I said he's not the best choice out there for Journey. He's not versatile enough to adapt to Neal and Jon's music. He wasn't even the best choice for Bad English. Go and listen to those Bad English albums and the very same limitations show through. He does a good job when he's aping Smitty's chops on the GH's and that's where "the buddy club" enters into things. Neal knew he was going to be touring more than recording. He doesn't want drama. He wants an ego-less "buddy" he can get along with out there. Go listen to every Journey track originated with Deen on the kit and you hear a one trick power pony.

I'm sure he'd tear it up playing for the likes of Ozzy or AC/DC or Def Leppard. Journey is a very different animal and he does not rise to the sophistication necessary to mesh with the band on new material.

Story teller, are you a drummer? Just asking because you seem pretty passionate about the subject. I'm a guitarist but admittedly not that well-schooled in drums, I'm just curious where all the sophisticated nuance you speak of is found in the drumming of most post-Rollie era Journey? I'm just having a hard time thinking of instances, the music is great, but I don't hear it owing much to jazz, fusion, or anything else the guys used to do. Enlighten me if you can.

Listen to Dunbar-era drumming. It all seems to have a thundering, sweeping feel to it.

Listen to Smitty-era drumming. More often than not it's very precise and calculated with intricate feel.

Listen to Deen-era drumming. It's more of a mixture between the booming fills of Dunbar and the snappy passages of Smitty, but without quite coming near the other two's unique capabilities. Still very good drumming though, Deen's definitely one of the top hundred rock drummers of all time.

Ehwmatt wrote:Story teller, are you a drummer? Just asking because you seem pretty passionate about the subject. I'm a guitarist but admittedly not that well-schooled in drums, I'm just curious where all the sophisticated nuance you speak of is found in the drumming of most post-Rollie era Journey? I'm just having a hard time thinking of instances, the music is great, but I don't hear it owing much to jazz, fusion, or anything else the guys used to do. Enlighten me if you can.

I've been many things, all of them artistic in nature, but yes, drumming was one of them (as was singing).

The nuances are really subtle things and not simple to describe in words. It's a feel. The beat doesn't pound in a consistent energy but floats across peaks and valleys. It feathers. It grooves. Those are choices the drummer makes to sell what's going on in the song moment by moment. Deen doesn't do this. He pounds with the same energy across the board.

To the average person the nuances I'm talking about wouldn't be in their face but rather come across as subtext. I think the best comparison difference I can use to illustrate is on ROR. Why Can't This Night Go On Forever vs. the rest of the album. SS infused emotion into that ballad with his timing and peaks and valley choices. He plays his beats like they're almost musical and he knows how to flow along, timing with the heart of the song. That is the mark of an artist, not just a drummer.

When it comes to rocking it out, check out the opening of Where Were You, or the break in Precious Time (something Deen struggled to nail live when they performed it with Augeri on vox). Better yet, check this out:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=6B4u361NPXs&feature=related

The song grooves fluidly while Perry is singing, then Smitty opens up in the jam around 2:30. You can really hear all the little additions he slips in across this song. Masterful. I'm not half the drummer he is.

Don't get me wrong, it's not that I'm saying Deen is a shit drummer. I never said that. I just said he's not the best choice for Journey and it's showing on their new original songs. There are better choices out there for this kind of music and it does have an affect on the feel of the songs.

johnroxx wrote:For years now, the music of Journey has been straight-ahead pop/rock. The only way that "jazz/fusion" relates to this band now is that their former drummer has chosen to focus on that genre in his post-Journey career.

;^)

Respectfully, I disagree. When you first learn to play an instrument, the approach you learn becomes your foundation. SS started out learning as a Jazz/Fusion drummer. He applied what he knew as a Jazz/Fusion drummer to pop/rock when he joined Montrose and eventually, Journey. That feel is in Journey's music through the subtleties I described in my previous post.

On the opposite end, Deen started out leaning towards Metal. Powerful beats, fast and furious but he never learned the subtleties. Harder to reverse those leanings.

Truth is, Perry held Smitty back. He wanted simpler beats than Smitty was capable of unleashing. In places they were good choices, in others, songs would have benefited from Smitty being allowed to cut loose. I remember Perry saying in an interview that he used to turn to smitty on stage and "bite his fist" as a signal for him to pull back so he could ride his vocal along the simplified beat. You can see a progression of this concept from Smitty's first album with Journey through to Frontiers. By Frontiers, he was really held back, but his subtle snaps still blended with the rest of the band.

Pelata wrote:Now, I've seen a few posts here & there about how Deen isn't all that great a drummer,

Anyone who would say that Castronovo isn't a great drummer is a dumbass. Castronovo is one of the 5 best ROCK drummers in the world right now.

Pelata wrote:Now, I've seen a few posts here & there about how Deen isn't all that great a drummer, how he was only picked cuz he & Neal are friends, etc. Yeah, they're friends...but music isn't "The Buddy Club". if you can't play, you can't play and no amount of friendship is going to change that.

That said, give a listen to "Dragon's Kiss" by Marty Friedman or "Maximum Security" by Tony McAlpine or "Convergence" by James Murphy or "Infra-Blue" by Joey Taffola or "Reign Of Terror" by Wild Dogs...THEN get back to me on Deen's playing ability. The dude is a freaking monster drummer.

Journey was a new animal for him, given. But comparing him to Steve Smith is like comparing Rod Morgenstein to Phil Collins...both are smoking & could play each others parts...but they both have their own styles.

exactly what I said over in the "Neal Interview" thread.........

When people complain about Deen missing a certain "finesse" compared to Steve's stuff, they are missing something really important.
These days records are over-compressed and thats why the sound so flat compared to the old 80s stuff....a LOT! of the little stuff gets lost that way.

Alex Landenburg wrote:

Pelata wrote:Now, I've seen a few posts here & there about how Deen isn't all that great a drummer, how he was only picked cuz he & Neal are friends, etc. Yeah, they're friends...but music isn't "The Buddy Club". if you can't play, you can't play and no amount of friendship is going to change that.

That said, give a listen to "Dragon's Kiss" by Marty Friedman or "Maximum Security" by Tony McAlpine or "Convergence" by James Murphy or "Infra-Blue" by Joey Taffola or "Reign Of Terror" by Wild Dogs...THEN get back to me on Deen's playing ability. The dude is a freaking monster drummer.

Journey was a new animal for him, given. But comparing him to Steve Smith is like comparing Rod Morgenstein to Phil Collins...both are smoking & could play each others parts...but they both have their own styles.

exactly what I said over in the "Neal Interview" thread.........

When people complain about Deen missing a certain "finesse" compared to Steve's stuff, they are missing something really important.
These days records are over-compressed and thats why the sound so flat compared to the old 80s stuff....a LOT! of the little stuff gets lost that way.

Oy vey! I'm spent, I give up... lol. I can't keep talking about the sky being blue with a bunch of people who repeatedly point out the clouds. Deen is god, he's the perfect drummer for Journey. You win. Anyone looking for a response from me on the subject can just re-read what I've said elsewhere in the thread.

STORY_TELLER wrote:Oy vey! I'm spent, I give up... lol. I can't keep talking about the sky being blue with a bunch of people who repeatedly point out the clouds. Deen is god, he's the perfect drummer for Journey. You win. Anyone looking for a response from me on the subject can just re-read what I've said elsewhere in the thread.

Some of what you say is true. However, I do think Deen is a perfect fit for the band right now. Deen's vocals would be sorely missed and he does a more than adequate job in the drumming department to make do.

conversationpc wrote:

STORY_TELLER wrote:Oy vey! I'm spent, I give up... lol. I can't keep talking about the sky being blue with a bunch of people who repeatedly point out the clouds. Deen is god, he's the perfect drummer for Journey. You win. Anyone looking for a response from me on the subject can just re-read what I've said elsewhere in the thread.

Some of what you say is true. However, I do think Deen is a perfect fit for the band right now. Deen's vocals would be sorely missed and he does a more than adequate job in the drumming department to make do.

Well, that saves me the trouble of making a final post on the subject...you've pretty much summed up what I was going to say, using a lot fewer words than I was likely going to.

;^)

He's a wondeful drummer and I think you'll find this album makes his name even more respected.

Melissa wrote:If I remember right, he's not interested in being a frontman. I like his voice, & love watching him in concert, he just seems to absolutely love what he does.

Totally agree! I'm a selfish music lover, I could care less how "technically" good a person is on their instrument......and yes Steve Smith is definitely better technically.....but I love Deen's playing more. Nothing gets me more jazzed LIVE than seeing a musician totally digging what they do for a living. Good reason why Rudy Sarzo, Neal Schon and Richie Sambora are faves too, they play with more feeling................same vocally with Perry, Soto and Martin.

As a drummer myself, I think Deen is a head above MANY other drummers out there. This includes all kinds of musical stylings. Steve Smith is, and will always be my favorite drummer. I am pretty sure Deen has the same feeling since he did actually bow down to the man at a the Hollywood WoF induction concert! Hell, the first song Deen learned was AWYWI!! He learned his craft by listening to the best!!!