MR

Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Songwriting is basically melody and lyrics. But honestly, a band can split up songwriting credits anyway they see fit. If a contribution outside of the melody or lyric is significant enough, such as a guitar riff/hook or drum part, then there is a legitimate basis to also include that in the writing credits as well.

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Good question...I thought I read that Neal did all of the bass arrangements or at least the "rough drafts." I think the song-writing credits go to the guys that actuallypen the tunes unless you copyright a song itself...like With A Tear and Into Your Arms. But I'm far from an expert. Frank? Jeremey? Neal?

From what I understand it is supposed to be arbitrated by the members of the group and includes music and lyrical composition. I believe the rift that broke up Triumph years ago was because Rik emmit wasn't sharing credit with the other two members. Granted he was probably writing most of the material but since he wasn't a solo act, they probably though it was only fair to be included. When your song is played on the radio the songwriter gets paid regardless of who is singing the song so I guess it's a monetary thing also.

Correction to my original post...copyright is only lyrics and melody. Songwriting CAN and does get broken up based on any band/songwriter's preferences. I read about one band that just gave songwriting credit to anyone who happened to be in the room at the time a song was written.

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Or better yet, how come Steve perry and Jeff scott soto are not given credit on "Never walk away"?

Saint John wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Good question...I thought I read that Neal did all of the bass arrangements or at least the "rough drafts." I think the song-writing credits go to the guys that actuallypen the tunes unless you copyright a song itself...like With A Tear and Into Your Arms. But I'm far from an expert. Frank? Jeremey? Neal?

What's up with your signature? Why is it a youtube video of Kurt Rambis?

yulog wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Or better yet, how come Steve perry and Jeff scott soto are not given credit on "Never walk away"?

What part did they write?

Tito wrote:

Saint John wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Good question...I thought I read that Neal did all of the bass arrangements or at least the "rough drafts." I think the song-writing credits go to the guys that actuallypen the tunes unless you copyright a song itself...like With A Tear and Into Your Arms. But I'm far from an expert. Frank? Jeremey? Neal?

What's up with your signature? Why is it a youtube video of Kurt Rambis?

Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Larry Bird, and Kurt Rambis.

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Or better yet, how come Steve perry and Jeff scott soto are not given credit on "Never walk away"?

What part did they write?

Didn't Steve write "be good to yourself"?
Didn't Jeff write "believe in me"?

yulog wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Or better yet, how come Steve perry and Jeff scott soto are not given credit on "Never walk away"?

What part did they write?

Didn't Steve write "be good to yourself"?
Didn't Jeff write "believe in me"?

Oh, I thought you were talking about "Never Walk Away..."

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Or better yet, how come Steve perry and Jeff scott soto are not given credit on "Never walk away"?

What part did they write?

Didn't Steve write "be good to yourself"?
Didn't Jeff write "believe in me"?

Oh, I thought you were talking about "Never Walk Away..."

Exactly, its pretty obvious where NWA came from so why not give credit to where the song originated from sort of like a rap single.

yulog wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Or better yet, how come Steve perry and Jeff scott soto are not given credit on "Never walk away"?

What part did they write?

Didn't Steve write "be good to yourself"?
Didn't Jeff write "believe in me"?

Oh, I thought you were talking about "Never Walk Away..."

Exactly, its pretty obvious where NWA came from so why not give credit to where the song originated from sort of like a rap single.

Sorry - To my knowledge Neal's guitar parts were similar, which I believe he wrote in both songs, but I didn't get the similarity in the lyrics or melody....

I don't want to cloud the issue here, but Neal is Neal, he's going to write material that sounds similar. Other artists have made a career out of it. After thirty plus years, your going to come across the same chord progression at some point.

yulog wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Or better yet, how come Steve perry and Jeff scott soto are not given credit on "Never walk away"?

What part did they write?

Didn't Steve write "be good to yourself"?
Didn't Jeff write "believe in me"?

Oh, I thought you were talking about "Never Walk Away..."

Exactly, its pretty obvious where NWA came from so why not give credit to where the song originated from sort of like a rap single.

I don't hear either song in NWA.

yulog wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Or better yet, how come Steve perry and Jeff scott soto are not given credit on "Never walk away"?

What part did they write?

Didn't Steve write "be good to yourself"?
Didn't Jeff write "believe in me"?

Oh, I thought you were talking about "Never Walk Away..."

Exactly, its pretty obvious where NWA came from so why not give credit to where the song originated from sort of like a rap single.

Now that comment is just retarded!

Rap songs sample music from other artists and that has nothing to do with writing a song the sounds similar to another song.

So many songs sound similar. Sometime they were the inspiration sometimes it is totally unintentional. Does NWA sound similar to BGTY. Yes. Is it a rip. NO. Every band has songs that are similar.

Hollywood wrote:

yulog wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

yulog wrote:

NealIsGod wrote:Why do only Schon and Cain get credit on songs when Ross and Deen probably came up with their parts. What constitutes a songwriting credit? Is it just lyrics and the tune itself?

Or better yet, how come Steve perry and Jeff scott soto are not given credit on "Never walk away"?

What part did they write?

Didn't Steve write "be good to yourself"?
Didn't Jeff write "believe in me"?

Oh, I thought you were talking about "Never Walk Away..."

Exactly, its pretty obvious where NWA came from so why not give credit to where the song originated from sort of like a rap single.

Now that comment is just retarded!

Rap songs sample music from other artists and that has nothing to do with writing a song the sounds similar to another song.

So many songs sound similar. Sometime they were the inspiration sometimes it is totally unintentional. Does NWA sound similar to BGTY. Yes. Is it a rip. NO. Every band has songs that are similar.

Relax Hollywood, my comment said sort of not exact, regardless NWA is an obvious piece meal of the 2 songs above with different lyrics. This is very similar to what a rap song does..many rap singers will just take a riff or small tiny part from a song and then change lyrics or ad a bit of there own flava to it.

You don't have to go by what i say ,numerous people here and elsewhere have said this song is Be good to yourself 2 or a rip from believe in me...i'm hardly the first to mention it and i won't be the last. Its one thing to copy yourself (maybe a small guitar clip or the way you sing your vowels), but when you can plug an old song into the new song and it fits its a rip plain an simple. With all the copyright lawsuits out there today for even the slightest copy of someone elses work, my comment is a legitamate one.Why not give credit to Perry and Soto.

It ain't even close.

Billy Squier, a rocker of all people gets paid by more rap artists than practically anybody for all the songs that have sampled from "THE BIG BEAT" song he wrote back in 1980. Being a credited song writer can be very good it seems.

Maybe JSS should consider suing...they definitely used Believe in Me...

SteveForever wrote:Maybe JSS should consider suing...they definitely used Believe in Me...

Exactly right. If it's a ripoff. Sue. Get some dough and prove it.

SteveForever wrote:Maybe JSS should consider suing...they definitely used Believe in Me...

I just don't hear any similarity with Believe In Me.

The finished version of Never walk Away - not so much the demo - is reminiscent of Be Good To Yourself but its more that it has it's 'feel' rather than actually ripping on it. Its the Journey Feelgood Factor tm

In my opinion of course.

Great, so St john and Tito disagree .......sorry that only counts as 1 vote since you are the same person

finalfight wrote:

SteveForever wrote:Maybe JSS should consider suing...they definitely used Believe in Me...

I just don't hear any similarity with Believe In Me.

The finished version of Never walk Away - not so much the demo - is reminiscent of Be Good To Yourself but its more that it has it's 'feel' rather than actually ripping on it. Its the Journey Feelgood Factor tm

In my opinion of course.

First listen to NWA okay and then
after a few seconds turn it off and listen to this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOAW6Q75FNw

SteveForever wrote:Maybe JSS should consider suing...they definitely used Believe in Me...

If he loses the case he is out some dough AND it might possibly give him a black eye in the Melodicrock community. I don't think Jeff is petty like that.

yulog wrote:Great, so St john and Tito disagree .......sorry that only counts as 1 vote since you are the same person

WTF are you talking about? My stance is they do NOT sound alike. However, if JSS feels like they ripped him off (and since he was the one to start it, by posting "actually it sounds like this (with a link to youtube), he probably does), he should sue. Prove it and get some dough.

Gunbot wrote:

SteveForever wrote:Maybe JSS should consider suing...they definitely used Believe in Me...

If he loses the case he is out some dough AND it might possibly give him a black eye in the Melodicrock community. I don't think Jeff is petty like that.

Agreed, but lots of band members sue each other over way less...
I'm in agreement with you though re: Mr. Jeff Scott Soto....

SteveForever wrote:

finalfight wrote:

SteveForever wrote:Maybe JSS should consider suing...they definitely used Believe in Me...

I just don't hear any similarity with Believe In Me.

The finished version of Never walk Away - not so much the demo - is reminiscent of Be Good To Yourself but its more that it has it's 'feel' rather than actually ripping on it. Its the Journey Feelgood Factor tm

In my opinion of course.

First listen to NWA okay and then
after a few seconds turn it off and listen to this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOAW6Q75FNw

Again similar feel, that patented Journey feel good factor - but hey isn't that Schon on guitar. That kind of explains the tone.

Great song though.

SteveForever wrote:

finalfight wrote:

SteveForever wrote:Maybe JSS should consider suing...they definitely used Believe in Me...

I just don't hear any similarity with Believe In Me.

The finished version of Never walk Away - not so much the demo - is reminiscent of Be Good To Yourself but its more that it has it's 'feel' rather than actually ripping on it. Its the Journey Feelgood Factor tm

In my opinion of course.

First listen to NWA okay and then
after a few seconds turn it off and listen to this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOAW6Q75FNw

Its undoubtably there, you don't even have to have a good ear to hear it, i doubt JSS would get legal about it, but technically he had his hand in this song as well as Perry. and for ME this song, NWA is no where near as good as either of its parts (be good to yourself + believe in me)

Tito wrote:

yulog wrote:Great, so St john and Tito disagree .......sorry that only counts as 1 vote since you are the same person

WTF are you talking about? My stance is they do NOT sound alike. However, if JSS feels like they ripped him off (and since he was the one to start it, by posting "actually it sounds like this (with a link to youtube), he probably does), he should sue. Prove it and get some dough.

My comment said that you disagreed with me, i thought that was pretty clear( it just also indicated that tito disagreed as well ,which i said only counts as one vote since the both of you are the same person)

I'm not an expert either, but based on Jeremey saying it's mostly up to the band's discretion how songwriting credit is applied, I'm going to take a guess that with Journey, it's whoever brings the song to the band at rehearsals (the band has alluded to this over the years). A few examples:
Who's Crying Now: Only SP/JC has writing credit on this song -- even though we know Neal came up with that memorable solo.
Faithfully: JC alone -- even though we know SP ad libbed the "whoa-whoa-whoa"'s which made the song soar and Neal came up with another of his patented chords to complement SP's vox.
L-T-S; WalksLikeALady;TheParty'sOver: SP sole credit -- even though we know the rest of the band added and prolonged the musical accompaniment, especially in the live performances of these songs.
WITS: This song was basically written before SP joined, but there were adlibs he made to the song (to make it his own) during recording that is not credited.
The same can be said in regards to Ross and Smitty during their heydays. There are maybe 1 or 2 out of Journey's entire song catalog that gave them credit as a co-writer. But we know they had contributed and played an influence in the evolution of each song from the rough demo to the finished product.