MR

I dunno,

I'm still having a hard time grappling with this. In the old days of double counting a double album for RIAA certification....double albums actually cost nearly double a single album cost. Using the number of CDs as a multiplier was justified.

Today, it seems like the double-CD rule is getting abused by the various Walmart bands, in order to chart higher. Garth Brooks sold 5 CDs in a box set for 20 bucks, The Eagles are certified tripple platinum for a multiple album sold at 11.99.....and Journey is now past gold and 2/3 the way to platinum for selling approximately 300k units at 11.99.

Now, I'm sure people will gripe that I'm just bitching because thats what I do...and go ahead, claim all you want. But I find this rule to be not-only atiquated, but abused....and I submit that a FAR better way to measure album sales in this context, is to determine a weighted average price point per CD. The reason I feel this is more apropriate, is that price is the only measurable primary driver of CD sales.


Today, an artist can slap another CD or even a third dvd into a 'package' for very little, in comparison to the total unit cost of the CD package. So the artist can either cut additional tracks in a home studio, slap together a DVD, etc...and partially circumvent the traditional RIAA certification process.


I'm sure someone will pipe in with the 'thems the rules, everyone has to play by them'....but the fact still remains that 20 years ago, independent albums (or these profit sharing deals with walmart) didn't have the distribution of a walmart (or other retailer, like starbucks)....so how does an artist who was certified 2x or 3x platinum back in 1994 feel, when The Eagles can pull off a 3x platinum album by shipping 1.5 million units!??!?! Same goes for an artist that worked damn hard to get a regular platinum cert, only to see Journey pull it off with an undercut price and only 500k units shipped.


I'm not ragging on Journey here...I'm just thinking out loud that a weighted average cost/unit, given todays walmart/alternative retailer pricing, is a FAR better way to get not only a CLEAR picture of an album's success....but a FAIR representation, in line with historical certification.

Agreed on most key counts.. I'm sure most would as well.

They're just using the current rules to help their situation. I think it less than balances out with the losses they take from rampant piracy now days.

In all fairness though, they are in fact selling two discs of music with every purchase. No matter what the price is. So when they say they've sold 640,000 CD's, they actually have.

Rick wrote:They're just using the current rules to help their situation. I think it less than balances out with the losses they take from rampant piracy now days.

In all fairness though, they are in fact selling two discs of music with every purchase. No matter what the price is. So when they say they've sold 640,000 CD's, they actually have.

I would tend to agree with you. Just because Wal-Mart sells Cokes for cheaper then say, a convenient store, doesn't mean the sales totals are invalid. Coke is still getting their money, as is Wal-Mart. Overhead is different with different retailers--it's good marketing for a band to go exclusively with a retail giant like Wal-Mart.

Rick wrote:In all fairness though, they are in fact selling two discs of music with every purchase. No matter what the price is. So when they say they've sold 640,000 CD's, they actually have.

But they are not giving the consumer the ability to decide if they want both discs. If given the choice, I definitely wouldn't have purchased the re-records as I am not interested in them, but I was interested in hearing the new material.

I consider Captured truly a double CD because it's two CDs worth of music from the same concert/tour. I would bet that other artists are going to take advantage of this model so they can say they have gone gold or platinum.

Rick wrote:They're just using the current rules to help their situation. I think it less than balances out with the losses they take from rampant piracy now days.

In all fairness though, they are in fact selling two discs of music with every purchase. No matter what the price is. So when they say they've sold 640,000 CD's, they actually have.

Actually, it is more like "buy-oneget-one-free" since the price is so low.

640,000 may be distributed with the double-up, however that does not equate to 640,000 of a single cd sold.

Cat

Rick wrote:They're just using the current rules to help their situation. I think it less than balances out with the losses they take from rampant piracy now days.

In all fairness though, they are in fact selling two discs of music with every purchase. No matter what the price is. So when they say they've sold 640,000 CD's, they actually have.

Agreed. They're selling a quality package -- 1 CD of new music, with several solid songs and one potential blockbuster; and 1 CD of re-recorded classics, most of which exceed expectations. If they were simply reading the phone book for one hour on a CD, I'd have to agree with you -- although I think the word would get out that this is a crap album and not to buy it.

.... and by the way: they're not getting any RIAA credit for the DVD. If the DVD were sold under a music video long-form DVD format for certification purposes, it would already be 3 x platinum as a single DVD.

I guess my point has always been: (1) these are the rules, (2) Journey's following the rules, therefore (3) they should get what everyone else gets. Even with the rules being what they, it's hardly true that every album by anyone goes platinum, or even gold. If that were true, I'd feel differently. But it's still a struggle for most bands to get to gold status, let alone platinum status, let alone to multiple-platinum status.

Piracy really has got to be taken into account. The whole package, including DVD, can be downloaded quicker then actually driving to the store and picking the thing up. But that's not answering the question I guess. To me Captured (a two disc lp) and Revelation fall into the same catagory. They both present previously released material (with the exception of Dixie Highway and the Parties Over) in a different manner then the original. One is in a live setting and one re-recorded with a different vocalist. If you feel that Captured Sales status is fair then you should feel the same about Revelations. If you feel Revelation is technically one sale then of course the same reasoning should apply to Captured.

Lora wrote:

Rick wrote:In all fairness though, they are in fact selling two discs of music with every purchase. No matter what the price is. So when they say they've sold 640,000 CD's, they actually have.

But they are not giving the consumer the ability to decide if they want both discs. If given the choice, I definitely wouldn't have purchased the re-records as I am not interested in them, but I was interested in hearing the new material.

I consider Captured truly a double CD because it's two CDs worth of music from the same concert/tour. I would bet that other artists are going to take advantage of this model so they can say they have gone gold or platinum.

Great points.

I think bands like Journey have to use the rules to their advantage now days. It's a much tougher climate to compete in now than it was in their heyday.

Gunbot wrote: If you feel Revelation is technically one sale then of course the same reasoning should apply to Captured.

Not really...

The point I am making is that the price points are different. Walmart's selling double CD's for less than what a single CD sold from tower a few years ago. IIRC, Captured did not sell at a double price point, but it most certainly did not sell at less than a single price point....

strangegrey wrote:

Gunbot wrote: If you feel Revelation is technically one sale then of course the same reasoning should apply to Captured.

Not really...

The point I am making is that the price points are different. Walmart's selling double CD's for less than what a single CD sold from tower a few years ago. IIRC, Captured did not sell at a double price point, but it most certainly did not sell at less than a single price point....

Ah, come on, Frank! You're just itching to try out all that fancy financial shit you've been studying for so long!

BTW, I agree with you, Frank. Apples and oranges...

Debbie

Rick wrote:They're just using the current rules to help their situation. I think it less than balances out with the losses they take from rampant piracy now days.

piracy is a constant in this scenario....everyone's dealing with it. So it factors out of the model.

And again, I'm not ragging on Journey....but asking out loud whether or not the current way things are done allows for a fair and transparent representation of album sales.

It's almost impossible for me to agree to such a statement that Relevation (if/when it hit's 2x Platinum) is anywhere near as significant as something like another artist who reached double platinum 10-20 years ago.

Yet the title/acolades remain the same, across time.

It doesn't sit well with me....

I don't agree with it.

It's kind of like a restaurant promoting a side dish of mashed potatoes as one of their most popular and most ordered items, simply because it automatically accompanies every main dish that's ordered.

It should count as one CD of music and one coaster or mini-frisbie.

What they should have done was have a one-time download password somewhere on the sleeve. You buy the new CD, and if you want the re-makes, then you go to their website and download it using the password.

This way they would be able to accurately track who was really interested in the remakes.

Art Vandelay wrote:What they should have done was have a one-time download password somewhere on the sleeve. You buy the new CD, and if you want the re-makes, then you go to their website and download it using the password.

This way they would be able to accurately track who was really interested in the remakes.

I think walmart believes the impulse buy is for the re-records. Without them, this package does not sell nearly as much.

strangegrey wrote:

Gunbot wrote: If you feel Revelation is technically one sale then of course the same reasoning should apply to Captured.

Not really...

The point I am making is that the price points are different. Walmart's selling double CD's for less than what a single CD sold from tower a few years ago. IIRC, Captured did not sell at a double price point, but it most certainly did not sell at less than a single price point....

I understand where you're coming from now. But twenty years ago, I didn't know what a Walmart was. If bands could have gone through the same route that Journey The Eagles and so forth are using now, I think that would have driven the down the price of LP's the same way it has here, except for the maufacturing cost which was really a fault of the technology they had to use back then. I do think with the digital age upon us and bands actually giving music away for free ie. Radiohead or as promotional props for their tours, along with Itunes and torrrents and all the rest, the certification process does need a major overhaul.

Memorex wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:What they should have done was have a one-time download password somewhere on the sleeve. You buy the new CD, and if you want the re-makes, then you go to their website and download it using the password.

This way they would be able to accurately track who was really interested in the remakes.

I think walmart believes the impulse buy is for the re-records. Without them, this package does not sell nearly as much.

Okay.....What they should have done was have a one-time download password somewhere on the sleeve. You buy the REMAKE CD, and if you want the new material, then you go to their website and download it using the password.

This way they would be able to accurately track who was really interested in the NEW MATERIAL.

strangegrey wrote:

Gunbot wrote: If you feel Revelation is technically one sale then of course the same reasoning should apply to Captured.

Not really...

The point I am making is that the price points are different. Walmart's selling double CD's for less than what a single CD sold from tower a few years ago. IIRC, Captured did not sell at a double price point, but it most certainly did not sell at less than a single price point....

I think the band (and Wal-Mart) should be given big kudos for providing value -- benefits received for money expended. For $11.88 you got a new CD, re-recorded classics, and a DVD. Wow .... that's a pretty amazing price point.

If you went with a fixed-dollar standard (i.e., platinum status = $x dollars of sales), you have a recipe for minimizing value to purchasers, not maximizing it. And what happens when the value of the dollar declines over time? Would that be adjusted or taken into account? At 5% inflation per year, you'd only have to sell 78% as many albums as 5 years earlier to reach the same nominal dollar amounts.

Changing the RIAA standard to eliminate the multi-CD provision would minimize value to fans and consumers.

As far as the one comment regarding product tying or bundling (i.e., consumers not having a choice about buying the second CD): so what. That's done all the time in other lines of business anyway. The shoe store "forced" me to buy a left shoe with the right one. The car dealer "forced" me to buy wheels with my new car. The homebuilder "forced" me to buy a house with plumbing already installed.

I guess the way I look at is: 30 years ago, when music was available only on vinyl albums, you were "forced" to buy the entire album, possibly to get just one song, if that's all you wanted, assuming the song was never released as a single. (This is what happened with "Stairway to Heaven", for example.) Now, today, with most albums, you can download songs individually (for $0.94 or $0.88 from Wal-Mart). Probably within a year or two you can do that with Revelation too ...... That's as pretty close to perfect choice as possible.

NOTE TO JOURNEY AND WAL-MART: STOP GIVING ME SO MUCH VALUE FOR MY MONEY!!! TAKE A LESSON FROM THE GOVERNMENT: GIVE ME 25 CENTS OF VALUE FOR EVERY DOLLAR I SEND YOU!!!

Art Vandelay wrote:

Memorex wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:What they should have done was have a one-time download password somewhere on the sleeve. You buy the new CD, and if you want the re-makes, then you go to their website and download it using the password.

This way they would be able to accurately track who was really interested in the remakes.

I think walmart believes the impulse buy is for the re-records. Without them, this package does not sell nearly as much.

Okay.....What they should have done was have a one-time download password somewhere on the sleeve. You buy the REMAKE CD, and if you want the new material, then you go to their website and download it using the password.

This way they would be able to accurately track who was really interested in the NEW MATERIAL.

Well that would be a good solution, except with todays technology , it'd be a matter of hours before a password generator would be available for people to download the songs for free,,,,,

On another note, Hows the importing/exporting business going for ya , Mr Vandelay!? !?:)

Behshad wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:

Memorex wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:What they should have done was have a one-time download password somewhere on the sleeve. You buy the new CD, and if you want the re-makes, then you go to their website and download it using the password.

This way they would be able to accurately track who was really interested in the remakes.

I think walmart believes the impulse buy is for the re-records. Without them, this package does not sell nearly as much.

Okay.....What they should have done was have a one-time download password somewhere on the sleeve. You buy the REMAKE CD, and if you want the new material, then you go to their website and download it using the password.

This way they would be able to accurately track who was really interested in the NEW MATERIAL.

Well that would be a good solution, except with todays technology , it'd be a matter of hours before a password generator would be available for people to download the songs for free,,,,,

On another note, Hows the importing/exporting business going for ya , Mr Vandelay!? !?:)

I gave that up. Been concentrating on architecture lately

strangegrey wrote:I dunno,

I'm still having a hard time grappling with this. In the old days of double counting a double album for RIAA certification....double albums actually cost nearly double a single album cost. Using the number of CDs as a multiplier was justified.

Today, it seems like the double-CD rule is getting abused by the various Walmart bands

UH OH.....critics just stopped using "Corporate" to describe Journey. They will now be..."A Walmart band" HOOOOOH!


I actually agree that the double count is kinda cheesey, however, I'm of the opinion they got so thieved on Arrival that they deserve the recognition this time around....

Gunbot wrote:

strangegrey wrote:

Gunbot wrote: If you feel Revelation is technically one sale then of course the same reasoning should apply to Captured.

Not really...

The point I am making is that the price points are different. Walmart's selling double CD's for less than what a single CD sold from tower a few years ago. IIRC, Captured did not sell at a double price point, but it most certainly did not sell at less than a single price point....

I understand where you're coming from now. But twenty years ago, I didn't know what a Walmart was. If bands could have gone through the same route that Journey The Eagles and so forth are using now, I think that would have driven the down the price of LP's the same way it has here, except for the maufacturing cost which was really a fault of the technology they had to use back then. I do think with the digital age upon us and bands actually giving music away for free ie. Radiohead or as promotional props for their tours, along with Itunes and torrrents and all the rest, the certification process does need a major overhaul.

I just realised a snag in my reasoning, if lp's were able to be sold as cheaply as the cd's being out today then, it would have added millions of potential sales for the groups back then. I think the revamp of the certification process would have come into play years ago if that would have happened

Eric wrote:

strangegrey wrote:I dunno,

I'm still having a hard time grappling with this. In the old days of double counting a double album for RIAA certification....double albums actually cost nearly double a single album cost. Using the number of CDs as a multiplier was justified.

Today, it seems like the double-CD rule is getting abused by the various Walmart bands

UH OH.....critics just stopped using "Corporate" to describe Journey. They will now be..."A Walmart band" HOOOOOH!


I actually agree that the double count is kinda cheesey, however, I'm of the opinion they got so thieved on Arrival that they deserve the recognition this time around....

Yep, and as tightly guarded as Revelation was, it still leaked.

Lora wrote:

Rick wrote:In all fairness though, they are in fact selling two discs of music with every purchase. No matter what the price is. So when they say they've sold 640,000 CD's, they actually have.

But they are not giving the consumer the ability to decide if they want both discs. If given the choice, I definitely wouldn't have purchased the re-records as I am not interested in them, but I was interested in hearing the new material.

I consider Captured truly a double CD because it's two CDs worth of music from the same concert/tour. I would bet that other artists are going to take advantage of this model so they can say they have gone gold or platinum.

But their chart success would be the same. It is counted as one sale for the charts so that has no effect. They still would have a #5 debut CD and Top 20 for 6 going on 7 weeks. For RIAA certification, you are correct. They get double counted so it is easier to get a gold or platinum album. That's where they;re using the rules to their advantage - trendsetters still.

Gunbot wrote:If you feel Revelation is technically one sale then of course the same reasoning should apply to Captured.

Isn't Captured a single CD? The album is a double album I believe. So, how do they count that now? Does the single CD count as 1 or 2 sales?

Tito wrote:

Gunbot wrote:If you feel Revelation is technically one sale then of course the same reasoning should apply to Captured.

Isn't Captured a single CD? The album is a double album I believe. So, how do they count that now? Does the single CD count as 1 or 2 sales?

Yep, single CD.

strangegrey wrote:I dunno,

I'm still having a hard time grappling with this. In the old days of double counting a double album for RIAA certification....double albums actually cost nearly double a single album cost. Using the number of CDs as a multiplier was justified.

Today, it seems like the double-CD rule is getting abused by the various Walmart bands, in order to chart higher. Garth Brooks sold 5 CDs in a box set for 20 bucks, The Eagles are certified tripple platinum for a multiple album sold at 11.99.....and Journey is now past gold and 2/3 the way to platinum for selling approximately 300k units at 11.99.

Now, I'm sure people will gripe that I'm just bitching because thats what I do...and go ahead, claim all you want. But I find this rule to be not-only atiquated, but abused....and I submit that a FAR better way to measure album sales in this context, is to determine a weighted average price point per CD. The reason I feel this is more apropriate, is that price is the only measurable primary driver of CD sales.


Today, an artist can slap another CD or even a third dvd into a 'package' for very little, in comparison to the total unit cost of the CD package. So the artist can either cut additional tracks in a home studio, slap together a DVD, etc...and partially circumvent the traditional RIAA certification process.


I'm sure someone will pipe in with the 'thems the rules, everyone has to play by them'....but the fact still remains that 20 years ago, independent albums (or these profit sharing deals with walmart) didn't have the distribution of a walmart (or other retailer, like starbucks)....so how does an artist who was certified 2x or 3x platinum back in 1994 feel, when The Eagles can pull off a 3x platinum album by shipping 1.5 million units!??!?! Same goes for an artist that worked damn hard to get a regular platinum cert, only to see Journey pull it off with an undercut price and only 500k units shipped.


I'm not ragging on Journey here...I'm just thinking out loud that a weighted average cost/unit, given todays walmart/alternative retailer pricing, is a FAR better way to get not only a CLEAR picture of an album's success....but a FAIR representation, in line with historical certification.

I heartily agree - but, i know nothing about a lot of acts in the charts these days - who is to say they are not doing this too - maybe giving away a so called free bonus CD full of remixes or some such crap? I know that you can get a double disc of Leona Lewis' album here (UK) but god, would you want to!!!???!!!
So, maybe a few others play that game too......

Memorex wrote:

Art Vandelay wrote:What they should have done was have a one-time download password somewhere on the sleeve. You buy the new CD, and if you want the re-makes, then you go to their website and download it using the password.

This way they would be able to accurately track who was really interested in the remakes.

I think walmart believes the impulse buy is for the re-records. Without them, this package does not sell nearly as much.

I got to disagree. The Greatest Hits recharted the same week and sales have increased so the ones that wanted GH bought the original. Most fans wanted to check out the new music but not the rerecords. The thing sold. Worst case scenario, very,very few would not have sold if it wasn't for the rerecords.

This argument could go either way but, in the end, the rules are what they are and, when they have filed for the gold certification, it will rightly qualify. That's good publicity any way you cut it and most people probably won't even know the difference.