MR

Just thought I'd do a little poll this evening as something's been nagging at me the past day or so...

So here's a scenario:

You're an engineer....You've been approached by a headhunting firm who claims a large international engineering firm is interested in hiring you. They want to meet with you, and interview you at your job. So the CEO and CFO fly out to your office in Minneapolis and your interview goes great. So great, in fact, that they terminate the person in the position they would hire you for, and invite your family out to their headquarters in Boston and meet with the board members.

You and your family fly out to Boston, where you are wined and dined by the chairman of the board. Later that week, you meet with the board and they offer you a dollar amount in salary, as well as bonuses, and give you a start date. After ironing out a few details, you agree that you're all on the same page, and you fly back to MN. Later in the week, the payroll department describes the terms of your payment, and you fill out the appropriate tax forms.

Unfortunately, shortly after all of this takes place, one of the officers of the company reveals some troubling information about the stability of the company, and you ultimately decide to withdraw from consideration.

So. Later you find out the company denies an offer was ever made to you, and you end up looking like a fool. Luckily you have phone messages, voice mails, and emails that document the entire process. However, you ultimately find yourself branded a liar despite all of this....

I'm still trying to wrap my brain around this one...At some point in this process, wouldn't it be safe to say that an offer HAD been made? Especially around the time where money, start date, and first paychecks were discussed and agreed on?? I'm a little brain dead and confused about this whole issue today...

Anyway, opinions? And, yes, this is all hypothetical and has nothing to do with real life.

dude,, ... the above does not make the potential employee look like a fool at all!!

a contract would have settled it .. but they could have bought it out ..

this guy has a gift most folks cant even imagine..

maybe a SINGING fool..

btw.. still waiting for that dvd..

It's a job offer even if you fail the drug test at the end and they can't hire you or if you declined halfway throught the hiring process when you found out the company was going to fold. When they say you start on this date, it's a job offer, end of story. What ever happens after that doesn't change that fact. Period.

Gunbot wrote:It's a job offer even if you fail the drug test at the end and they can't hire you or if you declined halfway throught the hiring process when you found out the company was going to fold. When they say you start on this date, it's a job offer, end of story. What ever happens after that doesn't change that fact. Period.

Pretty much what I figured too. Some companies don't see it that way apparently.

larryfromnextdoor wrote:dude,, ... the above does not make the potential employee look like a fool at all!!

a contract would have settled it .. but they could have bought it out ..

this guy has a gift most folks cant even imagine..

maybe a SINGING fool..

btw.. still waiting for that dvd..

Hope to get a new DVD sometime this fall!

Jeremey wrote:Just thought I'd do a little poll this evening as something's been nagging at me the past day or so...

So here's a scenario:

You're an engineer....You've been approached by a headhunting firm who claims a large international engineering firm is interested in hiring you. They want to meet with you, and interview you at your job. So the CEO and CFO fly out to your office in Minneapolis and your interview goes great. So great, in fact, that they terminate the person in the position they would hire you for, and invite your family out to their headquarters in Boston and meet with the board members.

not that it matters, but did the firm say they terminated because of the interview, or was that just an assumption by the engineer?

Jeremey wrote:You and your family fly out to Boston, where you are wined and dined by the chairman of the board. Later that week, you meet with the board and they offer you a dollar amount in salary, as well as bonuses, and give you a start date. After ironing out a few details, you agree that you're all on the same page, and you fly back to MN. Later in the week, the payroll department describes the terms of your payment, and you fill out the appropriate tax forms.

well that sounds like an offer. how was it offered though? was it in writing or just words? If both parties agreed to it.. even if its words as long as the person who offered it is authorized then its a contract.

csiako wrote:not that it matters, but did the firm say they terminated because of the interview, or was that just an assumption by the engineer?

Let's say that the interview went so well, the firm felt confident enough to let the previous employee go. When the potential candidate questions this logic, they are told, "Don't sweat it, Biff...You're a perfect fit for this organization and things are going to go amazingly well."

well that sounds like an offer. how was it offered though? was it in writing or just words? If both parties agreed to it.. even if its words as long as the person who offered it is authorized then its a contract.

This offer was negotiated and discussed openly among all board members until they came to an agreement. Of course there's no paperwork record of those conversations, only written and recorded correspondence before and after the fact referring to the details.

I think an offer can be defined and looked at in different ways and levels, depending on who's talking. I believe the more important issue is whether the offer is legally binding on the part of the potential employer or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong (maybe there are some good lawyers here)...
Especially in the U.S., my impression is that any verbal commitment, and document unsigned by both parties does not constitute a legal responsibility. Yes, I believe it is a moral obligation, but not a legal obligation.

I personally don't like it ...but I believe any employer or potential employer in the U.S. has the legal power to fire anybody at any stage of the offering or hiring process and at any stage of the employment period. That's the reason why it's not uncommon to see on the news that people who have worked in a company or organization for 1 day, 1 year, 1 decade or more---is fired summarily. This is supposed to benefit the employer's business, but definitely a big disadvantage for the employee.

As such, it is pretty easy to "fire" any body with any kind, or at any stage, of any so-called offer!

Jeremey wrote:Just thought I'd do a little poll this evening as something's been nagging at me the past day or so...

So here's a scenario:

You're an engineer....You've been approached by a headhunting firm who claims a large international engineering firm is interested in hiring you. They want to meet with you, and interview you at your job. So the CEO and CFO fly out to your office in Minneapolis and your interview goes great. So great, in fact, that they terminate the person in the position they would hire you for, and invite your family out to their headquarters in Boston and meet with the board members.

You and your family fly out to Boston, where you are wined and dined by the chairman of the board. Later that week, you meet with the board and they offer you a dollar amount in salary, as well as bonuses, and give you a start date. After ironing out a few details, you agree that you're all on the same page, and you fly back to MN. Later in the week, the payroll department describes the terms of your payment, and you fill out the appropriate tax forms.

To me, this basically says the job is yours for the taking. Of course if they asked you to sign a contract and that wasn't put before you, then an offer was made but never signed.

Suppose you did a little work for this company while things were being finalized since they have already informed you that "things are great, welcome to the team", you even wrote a technical manual for them that they are continuing to use even after they let you go, and they pay you a remittance for it to boot. Where does that fall into the job offer catagory?

edcha wrote:I think an offer can be defined and looked at in different ways and levels, depending on who's talking. I believe the more important issue is whether the offer is legally binding on the part of the potential employer or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong (maybe there are some good lawyers here)...
Especially in the U.S., my impression is that any verbal commitment, and document unsigned by both parties does not constitute a legal responsibility. Yes, I believe it is a moral obligation, but not a legal obligation.

I personally don't like it ...but I believe any employer or potential employer in the U.S. has the legal power to fire anybody at any stage of the offering or hiring process and at any stage of the employment period. That's the reason why it's not uncommon to see on the news that people who have worked in a company or organization for 1 day, 1 year, 1 decade or more---is fired summarily. This is supposed to benefit the employer's business, but definitely a big disadvantage for the employee.

As such, it is pretty easy to "fire" any body with any kind, or at any stage, of any so-called offer!

I don't think any offer is legally binding, but that's not really the issue here...The question as I see it is, if this potential employee said an offer was made to him, considering the above scenario, is he a liar?

Jeremey wrote:
You and your family fly out to Boston, where you are wined and dined by the chairman of the board.

I would just hope that you and your family had some "hypothetical" fun in my fine city


John from Boston

Jeremey wrote:

edcha wrote:I think an offer can be defined and looked at in different ways and levels, depending on who's talking. I believe the more important issue is whether the offer is legally binding on the part of the potential employer or not.

Correct me if I'm wrong (maybe there are some good lawyers here)...
Especially in the U.S., my impression is that any verbal commitment, and document unsigned by both parties does not constitute a legal responsibility. Yes, I believe it is a moral obligation, but not a legal obligation.

I personally don't like it ...but I believe any employer or potential employer in the U.S. has the legal power to fire anybody at any stage of the offering or hiring process and at any stage of the employment period. That's the reason why it's not uncommon to see on the news that people who have worked in a company or organization for 1 day, 1 year, 1 decade or more---is fired summarily. This is supposed to benefit the employer's business, but definitely a big disadvantage for the employee.

As such, it is pretty easy to "fire" any body with any kind, or at any stage, of any so-called offer!

I don't think any offer is legally binding, but that's not really the issue here...The question as I see it is, if this potential employee said an offer was made to him, considering the above scenario, is he a liar?

Well-taken, Jeremey.
I personally believe the potential employee was telling the truth, it was an offer (albeit not legally-binding)! He is not a liar!

BTW,

WARM W-E-L-C-O-M-E, csiako!!!

Have fun!

Jeremey wrote:I don't think any offer is legally binding, but that's not really the issue here...The question as I see it is, if this potential employee said an offer was made to him, considering the above scenario, is he a liar?

I would say under those circumstances, he had every right to say an offer had been made. Heck, I'd be telling people I actually landed the job! But there are so many reasons an employer can terminate someone without notice. Any chance he banged the boss's squeeze on the sly? Not good, especially in the probationary stages. That will do it every time...

edcha wrote:BTW,

WARM W-E-L-C-O-M-E, csiako!!!

Have fun!

thanks.. by the way, verbal commitment or verbal contract is legally binding.. the main problem is proving it. one of the parties involved can easily lie.
so my suggestion to the engineer.. bring a voice recorder next time

I would say that was an offer. My company has you sign an offer letter after everything is ironed out. However, its just a formality.

Well, water under the bridge, but our little hypothetical really was not taking Journey or their management to task, but rather a certain weekly fishwrap somewhere in the US that decided to flat out call me a "liar" based very much on the scenario above. Despite the fact that I provided the evidence to the contrary this fishwrap refused to retract their accusation. I'm just weighing the costs and benefits of having an attorney handle this as a libel situation that could potentially harm my career. The reality is that about 10 people read this stupid thing so it's probably not even worth pursuing. But it's just troublesome all the same to have to deal with this kind of nonsense.

csiako wrote:
so my suggestion to the engineer.. bring a voice recorder next time

You haven't checked out my myspace page then?
**removed audio from MS per recordee's request**

Jeremey wrote:

csiako wrote:
so my suggestion to the engineer.. bring a voice recorder next time

You haven't checked out my myspace page then?

www.myspace.com/journeymusiclive

er i thought we are still talking about the engineer :p

Interesting. So, if the "potential candidate" was concerned about the logic of his predecessor being terminated, why was he in there trying to get the man's job in the first place? And why does the "potential candidate" keep beating a dead horse over a year and a half later?

Jeremey wrote:
Let's say that the interview went so well, the firm felt confident enough to let the previous employee go. When the potential candidate questions this logic, they are told, "Don't sweat it, Biff...You're a perfect fit for this organization and things are going to go amazingly well."

csiako wrote:

Jeremey wrote:

csiako wrote:
so my suggestion to the engineer.. bring a voice recorder next time

You haven't checked out my myspace page then?

www.myspace.com/journeymusiclive

er i thought we are still talking about the engineer :p

He was using the engineer hypothetical as an analogy. It's an ongoing topic so you wouldn't be expected to know what it was about.
But all is well, you'll catch on in time.

nolippin wrote:Interesting. So, if the "potential candidate" was concerned about the logic of his predecessor being terminated, why was he in there trying to get the man's job in the first place?

Cause he's a greedy, bloodthirsty bastard, that's why! He'll take anyone's job that's ripe for the pickin!! Arrghhhh!!

And why does the "potential candidate" keep beating a dead horse over a year and a half later?

What are you talking about? This is a hypothetical situation involving an engineer.

If I am interviewing, and the potential employer sits me down and discusses both salary and start date, then I know this is an offer. Employers do not go into salary specifics with people they do not intend to hire. Whether or not I choose to accept said offer is not withstanding. I can't possibly accept or reject something that isn't there to start with, now can I?

So...hypothetically...how many people do you suppose jotted down that phone number before they "requested" that you take it off your Myspace page.

Hypothetically...you're in no position to be threatening legal action on anyone after that immature stunt.

Jeremey wrote:

nolippin wrote:Interesting. So, if the "potential candidate" was concerned about the logic of his predecessor being terminated, why was he in there trying to get the man's job in the first place?

Cause he's a greedy, bloodthirsty bastard, that's why! He'll take anyone's job that's ripe for the pickin!! Arrghhhh!!

And why does the "potential candidate" keep beating a dead horse over a year and a half later?

What are you talking about? This is a hypothetical situation involving an engineer.

nolippin wrote: And why does the "potential candidate" keep beating a dead horse over a year and a half later?

Wow. Has it been a year and half already????

I say shit happens, you win some/lose some. Just gotta shrug it off and keep truckin.

Rhiannon wrote:I say shit happens, you win some/lose some.

Some'll win... some will lose...

(I just couldn't not.)

nolippin wrote:So...hypothetically...how many people do you suppose jotted down that phone number before they "requested" that you take it off your Myspace page.

Hypothetically...you're in no position to be threatening legal action on anyone after that immature stunt.

God I wish you'd learn to quote.

Anyway, whomever dialed that number would have gotten nowhere, because it was edited, Einstein. It was the SF area code (415) then the last 4 digits of the office.

Rhiannon wrote:I say shit happens, you win some/lose some. Just gotta shrug it off and keep truckin.

Yeah, 'cept when you make a living doing something and someone publishes lies about you in a newspaper in a market you'll be playing in within the next 6 weeks. I think anyone would agree that would be disturbing.