OT: Went out and saw "W." last night

[strangegrey]

meh...I dunno what to think. I'm still trying to digest it all...I'm no movie reviewer, so don't expect a wonderfully written review. My biggest complaint about this movie will seemingly fall in line with the way I will write this post. The movie was all over the place. The story was poorly done. It was hard to follow at times....and at other times you were watching this going "wtf is going on here? what relevance does this have with the story? Who the fuck wrote this, Goofy? Pluto?"

Anyone see this yet?

I was hoping for Oliver Stone to take the gloves off and paint Bush in a completely uncomplementary light (something he could've done while remaining completely and utterly dedicated to historical acuracy)...I think a good 90% of the people in that would go see this moving are hoping for something like that....In some spots, I got what I came for....but most other times, Hayseed actually seemed like the lesser target, when compared to Stone's treatment of Cheney, Rumsfeld and most definitely, Condi Rice (who was painted out to be dumber than a drunk Jessica Simpson who just failed her IQ test). Disagree with Rice or not...she's not an idiot. The very *off* portrayal of her undercut the movie's other claims to veracity. In the end, my impressions of Bush and his administration does *not* fall in line with the impressions painted by Stone.

I think Stone wants you to think this is more like the truth...but to me, it seemed less likely. Stone seems hellbent on painting Bush and his entire cabinet as a bunch of monkeys that made it into the texas governor office and the white house under blind and dumb luck.....Bush may be an idiot....but I dont think anyone out there doubts that he didn't surround himself with either smart and cunningly manipulative pricks in order to get where he is. And I think thats where the movie goes wrong...the movie seems to be an opinion piece on what Oliver Stone *thinks* makes up the mental caliber of Bush, his advisors and the people in the white house circa 2001-2004.

...but when you portray characters like Rice as a cheerleading duncecap with less intelligence than sarah palin, Powell as a completely neutered patsy, Cheney as a manipulative evil prick genius (ok, cheney might not be the best example here ) and Rove as a bumbling fool who has a slightly better understanding of what people want to see than George W Bush.....it undercut's Stone's ability to project suspension of disbelief on the whole film....and the character he wants to objectify, Dubya.


In the end, I walked out thinking the movie sucked. If I wanted to see a bumbling fool get through life on blind luck, I would have popped in Forrest Gump. At least Gump has a good story. This movie had a completely shitty story with alot of uncomfortable historical assumptions....

It could have been fucking brilliant. Painting Bush as he is in true reality would have been enough material to have movie goers coming for months through 2009. Instead....I suspect, this film is going to be on DVD before we know who's the next president.


Who else has seen it and what did you think?

[The_Noble_Cause]

Gonna try to see it this weekend.
The film's rushed production schedule had me thinking it might not be a classic.
I recently read that Christian Bale was slated to play Bush and even underwent expensive makeup tests before dropping out.

[strangegrey]

No kidding...Bale eh?

well, I'll say this. The guy that did Bush...his name escapes me at the moment....if you closed your eyes, he was fucking brilliant....sound wise, he had all of Bush's sounds done...even facial manerisms....

I just dont think he looks like bush as much as he should have....

...but I will say this about the film....the acting picks up some of the slack where the film lacks. Richard Dryfuss was fucking CREEPY good at portraying Cheney the way Stone wanted him portrayed....

[DrFU]

Stone seems hellbent on painting Bush and his entire cabinet as a bunch of monkeys that made it into the texas governor office and the white house under blind and dumb luck

For the TX gov part, pretty close ... Ann Richards' organization had a bad case of hubris ...

As for Rice, she was the provost (chief academic officer) at Stanford for six years ... about as far from bimbo as it's possible to get.

Guess I need to go see this.

[strangegrey]

Thats what dropped the floor out from the bottom of the movie. Rice.....they really painted her out to be completely dumb as a stump. I mean, truly a village idiot. A complete and utter puppet, with zero input on policy discussions....simply saying 'yes' to everything thrown at her. It's hard to buy that, given what we know of her in the public. I would submit that even the die-hard bush haters out there would at least agree that she had to get where she is with *some* intelligence...even if you feel it's misguided.

By painting her out to be completely devoid of any mental caliber, it makes you question the veracity of the other character-based claims in the film.

[Eric]

I would have popped in Forrest Gump. At least Gump has a good story. ?

Jenny Gump is a **** though. I would have preferred in the end if he took little Forrest home and let that whore rot.

[Eric]

As for Rice, she was the provost (chief academic officer) at Stanford for six years ... about as far from bimbo as it's possible to get.

The only legitimate knock anyone could have had over Rice is that her wheelhouse was the communist Soviet Union, and not Islamic Fascism. However, given Putin's now transparent motives to resume his KGB tactics, she could be very useful for the next administration as well.

[Voyager]

Rice.....they really painted her out to be completely dumb as a stump. I mean, truly a village idiot. A complete and utter puppet, with zero input on policy discussions....simply saying 'yes' to everything thrown at her.

Sounds pretty accurate to me. Colin Powell didn't want to be the puppet, so they recruited Rice who was willing to play the part. Maybe if she's lucky Obama will keep her on as a maid to help clean the White House. Speaking of Powell, word has it that he is going to endorse Obama today. He's a smart man.

[Lula]

oliver stone was on rachel maddow's show. he didn't seem "too proud" of the movie. kind of shook his shoulders as if to say, it is what it is. it seemed to me that he could have done a lot better job, but i think he wanted it released before election day.

[Don]

Rice's political career is not over by a long shot. Her greatest strength is her understanding of the Russian cold war engine and with the recent actions of Putin and his collegues (which Rice had warned Georgia about, but was ignored), her expertise will still be an asset to who ever is in the White House regardless of political affiliation.

[strangegrey]

Sounds pretty accurate to me. Colin Powell didn't want to be the puppet, so they recruited Rice who was willing to play the part. Maybe if she's lucky Obama will keep her on as a maid to help clean the White House. Speaking of Powell, word has it that he is going to endorse Obama today. He's a smart man.

No...I think you're missing some history here. Rice was in Bush's administration since the day he was sworn in. To suggest they recruited her to play a part that Powell wouldn't play is a little misleading. Stone's portrayal of Rice is consistent throughout the entire time frame presented in the movie...she's portrayed as a completely idiotic buffoon with zero knowledge on anything. In *any* other film, her 'character' would serve no purpose and would likely not have dialog. In this film, her dialog is so dumbed down, that the intent seems obvious to paint her in this fashion.

I guess you have to see it to know what I mean...it was extreme. VERY extreme...so much so that it cast significant doubts on the character acuracy of the entire film. That's the point i was trying to make.

As for Powell....it could go either way. My interpretation of his portrayal of him in the movie, is someone that had very little backbone, ultimately used as a patzy to front a flawed argument to the UN body. While this may or may not be true....the fact is that public perception of the man is very high...as evidenced by discussion in this thread and the 'presidential' thread in that people feel powell is a person of integrity.

In the movie, they painted him out to be one that was conflicted over the policy path that bush and the administration took....but in the end, bent over and presented the bullshit to the UN. This is contrary to what I (and it seems others here) feel about Powell, as being a man of 'integrity.' I guess, it's a subjective thing....

regardless, the big issue I have is with Rice's portrayal. It was so far out away from normal, that makes the rest of the film hard to watch.

[Voyager]

Sounds pretty accurate to me. Colin Powell didn't want to be the puppet, so they recruited Rice who was willing to play the part. Maybe if she's lucky Obama will keep her on as a maid to help clean the White House. Speaking of Powell, word has it that he is going to endorse Obama today. He's a smart man.

No...I think you're missing some history here. Rice was in Bush's administration since the day he was sworn in. To suggest they recruited her to play a part that Powell wouldn't play is a little misleading. Stone's portrayal of Rice is consistent throughout the entire time frame presented in the movie...she's portrayed as a completely idiotic buffoon with zero knowledge on anything. In *any* other film, her 'character' would serve no purpose and would likely not have dialog. In this film, her dialog is so dumbed down, that the intent seems obvious to paint her in this fashion.

I guess you have to see it to know what I mean...it was extreme. VERY extreme...so much so that it cast significant doubts on the character acuracy of the entire film. That's the point i was trying to make.

As for Powell....it could go either way. My interpretation of his portrayal of him in the movie, is someone that had very little backbone, ultimately used as a patzy to front a flawed argument to the UN body. While this may or may not be true....the fact is that public perception of the man is very high...as evidenced by discussion in this thread and the 'presidential' thread in that people feel powell is a person of integrity.

In the movie, they painted him out to be one that was conflicted over the policy path that bush and the administration took....but in the end, bent over and presented the bullshit to the UN. This is contrary to what I (and it seems others here) feel about Powell, as being a man of 'integrity.' I guess, it's a subjective thing....

regardless, the big issue I have is with Rice's portrayal. It was so far out away from normal, that makes the rest of the film hard to watch.

Thanks. I didn't know much about Rice before she took over for Powell. As far as Powell goes, I think he was fed a line of bullshit to feed to the U.N. without knowing how good the intelligence was. When he learned that it was hyped by W. & Associates, he bailed out.

I'm planning to go see the movie. Thanks for the review!!!

[strangegrey]

As far as Powell goes, I think he was fed a line of bullshit to feed to the U.N. without knowing how good the intelligence was. When he learned that it was hyped by W. & Associates, he bailed out.

Right...that's where I think the movie differs from public knowledge of history. You get the impression in the movie, that Powell knew full well he was delivering a bag of tainted goods to the UN security counsil....but did so anyway, because Bush and Cheney strong armed him to do it.

Irrespective of the veracity of that....it doesn't jive with the public's perception of a) what happened and b) their impression of him with respect to his integrity.

No one outside of those inside pre-war meetings knows the truth as to what Powell felt was going on....but it doesn't seem to fit with Powell's character or public perception of it.


I know logically, with this film....Stone was trying to indict Bush and co on the evidence used to justify the iraq war. The problem is that he was left with a pickle. Since Powell was Secy of State during this period, the only cut and dry way to make it work is to include powell in the room with the bad guys....I don't think he could have presented this in a clean way, if they subverted the evidence handed to powell before he went to the UN. Despite the fact that it might have played out precisely that way.

[The_Noble_Cause]

As far as Powell goes, I think he was fed a line of bullshit to feed to the U.N. without knowing how good the intelligence was.

Powell's former chief of staff is on record saying that they stayed up through the night removing pages of outright falsehoods from the UN presentation.
At the end of the day, Powell was still left with a posioned chalice.

When he learned that it was hyped by W. & Associates, he bailed out.

Powell didn't bail out. He was asked to leave i.e. fired.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00106.html

[Voyager]

Powell didn't bail out. He was asked to leave i.e. fired.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00106.html

Just goes to show how secretive W. & Associates are. I am glad Scott McCellan let the cat out of the bag.

[Eric]

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanm ... ml?showall

[StoneCold]

oliver stone was on rachel maddow's show. he didn't seem "too proud" of the movie. kind of shook his shoulders as if to say, it is what it is. it seemed to me that he could have done a lot better job, but i think he wanted it released before election day.

Here's that clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR7fdSfDfR4

[DrFU]

Thanks. I didn't know much about Rice before she took over for Powell. As far as Powell goes, I think he was fed a line of bullshit to feed to the U.N. without knowing how good the intelligence was. When he learned that it was hyped by W. & Associates, he bailed out.

I'm planning to go see the movie. Thanks for the review!!!

http://www.hoover.org/bios/rice.html